The Status Of First 3 Caliphs In Zaydis' Eyes

[saberrider]

I know the widespread belief of 12'er Shias regarding Abu Bakr (R.A) Umar (R.A). I am curious where Zaydis stand on this. 

[Ali Musaaa :)]

(salam)

Wilferd Madelung wrote an article on the Zaydi perspective of the Companions. Its available on the Ismaili Institute's website. 

[saberrider]

Can you post me the URL ?

[saberrider]

Found it, already. thanks.

[HusseinAlix]

The Zaydis are the oldest branch of Shia Islam. When Imam Zayid was around, there was no such thing as Sunnis or Shias and there were no schools of Fiqh. People just followed the Quran and the example of the prophet peace be upon him as every one in Madina new how the prophet had practiced Islam. There was no confusion. over 10,000 people in Madina knew what the prophet had said and told their children. So it was very difficult for people in Madina to fabricate Hadith. For this reason the orientalist give priority to the early books from Madina when looking at Islam. Imam Zayid, Imam Jafar, Imam Bakar, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifa spent a lot of time together in Madina. Since Imam Zayid did not write books, both the Zaydi and the Fatimids used Hanifi Fiqh. If you read through the books written by Imam Malik or Imam Abu Hanifa they are in the middle ground. It looks like religious/ideological splits happened much later. 

I guess if some one came to us and insulted our great grand parents, we would not like it. In the same way Imam Jafar used to dislike people who used to criticise his great grandfather Abu Bakr. Abu Bakar son Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr was raised by Imam Ali. He was married from Imam Ali's family. He was Imam Ali's general and was killed by the Umayads in Egypt. His son Qasim was married to the Asma the daughter of Abu Bakr's other son abdur rahman ibn Abu Bakr. Abdur rahman hated Yazid. Qasim and Asma's daughter Um farwa is the mother if Imam Jafar Sadiq. Every thing I have see about Imam Zaid appears to suggest that he respected Abu Bakr and Umar. It is said that the people of Kufa would send letters to Imam Zaids, as they used to do to Imam Hussein. Imam Jafar, Imam Bakir, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik and his family told him not to go to Kufa. When he went he was  betrayed. The people in Kufa are said to have asked him what do you think on Abu Bakar and Umar and he said that his family said nothing against them and that when they ruled they ruled in accordance with the Kuran and the teachings of the prophet. So Imam Zaid was abandoned and the people of Kufa dealt with him in the same way as they did with Imam Hussein.    

[bitto]

A wr wb
Imam Jafar As Sadiq's lineage has nothing to do with the murderers of Bibi Zehra a.s [Edited]

Edited April 15, 2014 by inshaAllah
Avoid cursing one another

[IQRA07]

We regard Abu Bakr and Umar as usurpers and Uthman as well but we do not do takfir. Abu Bakr was wrong in seizing the fadak of Fatima Zahra (as) Uthman is regarded as the first of the oppressive Umayyads. In Zaydi thought the first 3 ignored a clear designation by Muhammad (saws) of Ali (as) to be Imam. This makes them fasiqun but not necessarily kafir. Uthman is disliked but I have not seen him cursed.

 

The best place to learn about our positions on these matters is salvationark.com  . They have a q&a section there too so you can be very specific in your inquiries

Edited April 2, 2014 by IQRA07

[Abul Hussain Hassani]

We regard Abu Bakr and Umar as usurpers and Uthman as well but we do not do takfir. Abu Bakr was wrong in seizing the fadak of Fatima Zahra (as) Uthman is regarded as the first of the oppressive Umayyads. In Zaydi thought the first 3 ignored a clear designation by Muhammad (saws) of Ali (as) to be Imam. This makes them fasiqun but not necessarily kafir. Uthman is disliked but I have not seen him cursed.

 

The best place to learn about our positions on these matters is salvationark.com  . They have a q&a section there too so you can be very specific in your inquiries

 

(salam)

Here is a Zaydi Scholar refuting the takfiri and extreme beliefs of Twelvers:

[Ali-F]

(salam)

Here is a Zaydi Scholar refuting the takfiri and extreme beliefs of Twelvers:

 

There is not only one type of "twelvers"- remember that.

[IQRA07]

I don't understand why there is more than one kind of 12er since they are supposedly guided , until this very day, by infallible Imams. Shouldn't they agree with each other on kalam and fiqh ? I mean all disputes could be resolved by the Imam..........

[Ethics]

I don't understand why there is more than one kind of 12er since they are supposedly guided , until this very day, by infallible Imams. Shouldn't they agree with each other on kalam and fiqh ? I mean all disputes could be resolved by the Imam..........

 

I dont understand why there are disbelievers, since you know God gave mankind guidance and gave them revelations, messengers, prophets, imams, to this very day. Shouldnt mankind be believers, I mean its God we are talking about....

[IQRA07]

I dont understand why there are disbelievers, since you know God gave mankind guidance and gave them revelations, messengers, prophets, imams, to this very day. Shouldnt mankind be believers, I mean its God we are talking about....

Not everybody was taught about Allah. I myself was raised as a Christian. I know plenty of people who are raised without being taught any religion at all. But 12ers ARE believers with a specific set of beliefs. Among them are the belief that the Imams (as) are infallible. Since , in 12er belief, there is ALWAYS an Imam and according even to links you yourself referred me to one of the duties of the Imam is to spread divine teachings and guide to the truth , it seems to me that your Imam(s) should be able to resolve whatever disputes may arise.

 

Don't get me wrong I don't think it was the most productive thing in the world for Abul Hussain Hassani to post this video. I am just responding to the statement that there are more than one type of 12er. How can this be ? Surely you all agree on major matters and the matters left over are too small to result in different kinds of 12ers ?

[kbsquare]

(salam)

Here is a Zaydi Scholar refuting the takfiri and extreme beliefs of Twelvers:

Not all "twelvers" practice takfir just like not all Sunni's practice beheadings....

[saberrider]

A wr wb

Imam Jafar As Sadiq's lineage has nothing to do with the murderers of Bibi Zehra a.s.Next time if you post such blasphemy,May Allah Almighty' curse be on you and all those who are like you.

 

Hey, thanks for the (unnecessary) curse (even though I still do not know how did I exactly offend you - can someone help me out with that?). I just love it when Muslims can talk to each other in peace and harmony.

Edited April 4, 2014 by saberrider

[Ethics]

Hey, thanks for the (unnecessary) curse (even though I still do not know how did I exactly offend you - can someone help me out with that?). I just love it when Muslims can talk to each other in peace and harmony.

 

Brother, he wasnt talking to you. He was referring to the post where they accuse the prophets grandson of such ridiculous and insane accusations. Indeed, may the curse of Allah be on such vile and evil people who create lies and tarnish the image of Muhammad A.S and his family.

[saberrider]

Brother, he wasnt talking to you. He was referring to the post where they accuse the prophets grandson of such ridiculous and insane accusations. Indeed, may the curse of Allah be on such vile and evil people who create lies and tarnish the image of Muhammad A.S and his family.

 

 Salam.

 

"Next time if you post such blasphemy,May Allah Almighty' curse be on you and all those who are like you.".......Uh, who's "you" in this, then, if not me ?

[Ethics]

 Salam.

 

"Next time if you post such blasphemy,May Allah Almighty' curse be on you and all those who are like you.".......Uh, who's "you" in this, then, if not me ?

 

I believe it was the poster above. But brother, its clearly not you. How is asking a question blasphemy? lol

Plus read the context of his post. He was referring to the one who accused the ahlulbayt of killing his own family member o_O and then he goes on to say may the curse of Allah be on you (who posted such a comment) and those alike.

Edited April 4, 2014 by PureEthics

[Saintly_Jinn23]

 

Don't get me wrong I don't think it was the most productive thing in the world for Abul Hussain Hassani to post this video. I am just responding to the statement that there are more than one type of 12er. How can this be ? Surely you all agree on major matters and the matters left over are too small to result in different kinds of 12ers ?

 

Twelvers are united in their belief in the Twelve Imams, but some divisions exist in the Twelver tradition regarding specific matters of law, religious authority or regarding matters of gnosis/irfan. In most cases, these aren't that serious.

[saberrider]

"I believe it was the poster above. But brother, its clearly not you. How is asking a question blasphemy? lol

Plus read the context of his post. He was referring to the one who accused the ahlulbayt of killing his own family member o_O and then he goes on to say may the curse of Allah be on you (who posted such a comment) and those alike."

 

 

 HusseinAlix ? I read what he wrote. I don't see anything offensive that he posted.

 

Or Maybe I am just feeling sleepy, lol.

Edited April 4, 2014 by saberrider

[Ethics]

"I believe it was the poster above. But brother, its clearly not you. How is asking a question blasphemy? lol

Plus read the context of his post. He was referring to the one who accused the ahlulbayt of killing his own family member o_O and then he goes on to say may the curse of Allah be on you (who posted such a comment) and those alike."

 

 

 HusseinAlix ? I read what he wrote. I don't see anything offensive that he posted.

 

Or Maybe I am just feeling sleepy, lol.

 

lol I dont particularly see it either, but I was just saying thats what the guy meant, not to you.

[Seeker123]

Could someone link to Wilferd Madelung article please?

[Abul Hussain Hassani]

 

There is not only one type of "twelvers"- remember that.

 

 

Not all "twelvers" practice takfir just like not all Sunni's practice beheadings....

 

 

(salam)  

 

It is not about individuals, it is a about beliefs of the sect. 

[Robin Hood]

We regard Abu Bakr and Umar as usurpers and Uthman as well but we do not do takfir. Abu Bakr was wrong in seizing the fadak of Fatima Zahra (as) Uthman is regarded as the first of the oppressive Umayyads. In Zaydi thought the first 3 ignored a clear designation by Muhammad (saws) of Ali (as) to be Imam. This makes them fasiqun but not necessarily kafir. Uthman is disliked but I have not seen him cursed.

 

The best place to learn about our positions on these matters is salvationark.com  . They have a q&a section there too so you can be very specific in your inquiries

 

Do you believe Umar and co. are going to Hell?

[CaLiFoRniA]

.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Krusty the Clown

[kbsquare]

(salam)

It is not about individuals, it is a about beliefs of the sect.

Wrong

Edited April 6, 2014 by kbsquare

[IQRA07]

Do you believe Umar and co. are going to Hell?

I don't know but I hope so.

[Faruk]

On ‎25‎-‎3‎-‎2014 at 10:05 AM, Ali Musaaa said:

(salam)

Wilferd Madelung wrote an article on the Zaydi perspective of the Companions. Its available on the Ismaili Institute's website. 

Salam,

Can you give me the link?