Sanctity Of Life...

[CLynn]

I listen to RelevantRadio online, and all the talk today is of the cases being heard before the supreme court of the U.S. today, regarding the government intrusion, and compulsion by law, of businesses to provide health services that go against their religious beliefs.  I wonder, are there Muslims, here on Shiachat, that live in the United States, and are they hearing about this in the news, and what are their feelings on the matter?  Is abortion acceptable in Islam or should Muslims be speaking out against this also?

[notme]

Abortion is not permitted for Muslims, unless the mother's life is in danger from the pregnancy. I'm not sure of the ruling on aborting when the unborn child has a fatal defect and will not live. Abortion is not permitted, but it is only classified as murder after the soul has entered the fetus, around 2.5 months after conception.

My feeling on the matter is life saving procedures should be covered by insurance. Voluntary abortion, even where legal, should not except in extreme circumstances which would need to be examined on a case by case basis.

[CLynn]

Abortion is not permitted for Muslims, unless the mother's life is in danger from the pregnancy. I'm not sure of the ruling on aborting when the unborn child has a fatal defect and will not live. Abortion is not permitted, but it is only classified as murder after the soul has entered the fetus, around 2.5 months after conception.

 

Greetings notme,

 

This is shocking to me.  Who decided that the soul enters a fetus at 2.5 months? 

I can't help but think that if the Creator allows life to be created, a soul would be provided before even the conception in the flesh could take place.  Why would the Creator allow flesh to be conceived without a soul?

 

Who decided it is ok to get rid of any life that the Creator has allowed to come into creation?

 

My feeling on the matter is life saving procedures should be covered by insurance. Voluntary abortion, even where legal, should not except in extreme circumstances which would need to be examined on a case by case basis.

 

Do you think it is right for government to be able to compel business owners to provide services(through insurance) that go against their God given aversion to certain procedures?  Shouldn't they have the right to decide what they provide to their employees, and employees can choose not to work for them, seeking employment elsewhere, that offers what they want... or they can seek these services not provided by their employer through other means and other avenues?

 

These are not in any way personal attacks on you.  These are just my thoughts.  I have always appreciated our conversations.  I couldn't help but feel that Muslims too would be speaking out against what the U.S. government is doing in these cases, since I thought, in both our views, that they go against God.  Doesn't killing life go against the Creator?  Aren't we submitting to our own will instead of His?

 

asalaam,

CLynn

Edited March 25, 2014 by CLynn

[notme]

Oh, my opinion is that a person is a person from the moment they are conceived, but you asked about the Islamic ruling.

As I said before, I think insurance should pay for medically necessary procedures, not voluntary ones. The borderline cases, from my point of view, are cases in which the unborn child has a severe defect and will not live or will not be able to function independently in any way, or cases in which there is severe psychological harm to the mother from carrying the child, for example if she is a child herself or is mentally impaired. Basically, as I see it, abortion is always killing an innocent person but on rare occasions it may be for a greater good. Compassion must be exercised.

[Agora]

Do you think it is right for government to be able to compel business owners to provide services(through insurance) that go against their God given aversion to certain procedures? Shouldn't they have the right to decide what they provide to their employees, and employees can choose not to work for them, seeking employment elsewhere, that offers what they want... or they can seek these services not provided by their employer through other means and other avenues?

Yes. I also support the minimum wage, workers comp, 8-hour work days (with overtime pay for more than 40 hours), etc. These are all rights of employees. Sorry, but just because you or I don't like providing insurance doesn't mean we can't. If I knew my employee spent his money on alcohol, could I all of the sudden stop paying him? Of course not.

[CLynn]

Yes. I also support the minimum wage, workers comp, 8-hour work days (with overtime pay for more than 40 hours), etc. These are all rights of employees. Sorry, but just because you or I don't like providing insurance doesn't mean we can't. If I knew my employee spent his money on alcohol, could I all of the sudden stop paying him? Of course not.

 

Greetings Agora,

 

Not saying that insurance should not be made available... but I do believe that employers should have the right to decide what kind of insurance they will offer, and not be made to provide something that goes against their convictions.  Part of interviewing for a job involves whether or not you like the 'perks' that the job offers.  People can always go work somewhere else.

asalaam,

CLynn

Edited March 26, 2014 by CLynn

[baqar]

Who decided that the soul enters a fetus at 2.5 months? 

 

Hi Clynn

 

That has been told to us by our Imams.

 

That the soul does not enter the fetus until some weeks have passed. 

 

Do you think there is any evidence for the contrary? 

[notme]

This is shocking to me. Who decided that the soul enters a fetus at 2.5 months?

Since abortion is haram anyway, why does it make a difference?

It does seem scientifically logical that the brain should develop some before the child has consciousness - and a soul.

[CLynn]

Hi Clynn

 

Do you think there is any evidence for the contrary? 

 

Greetings baqar,

 

Only what I presented in my post #3, which is only from my own rational, logical, thinking.  Since God is in charge of creation, why would He allow a seed to be fertilized if there was no soul to enter it?  Perhaps fetuses which abort naturally are ones that never received a soul, I don't know, but I think it is up to God, not us, to decide whether or not life comes into the world.  God has many different purposes for the lives He brings... even the damaged ones... they often change the parents in good ways, that they are given to.  What if those parents thwart God's plans?  The Creator knows better than we do, what we need to progress and grow in this life.

Anyway... didn't mean to ramble. :)  I've been listening lately to how the scourge of abortion is much like the pagan, or satanic, infant 'blood' sacrifices of old, and there are those, who I believe may very well be correct, who feel that the scourge of abortions that have taken place by the thousands(I don't even know the numbers, they are horrific) since the 1960's and the sexual 'revolution', have opened the gates of hell.

 

asalaam and blessings,

CLynn

Edited March 26, 2014 by CLynn

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Abortion is not permitted for Muslims, unless the mother's life is in danger from the pregnancy. I'm not sure of the ruling on aborting when the unborn child has a fatal defect and will not live. Abortion is not permitted, but it is only classified as murder after the soul has entered the fetus, around 2.5 months after conception.

My feeling on the matter is life saving procedures should be covered by insurance. Voluntary abortion, even where legal, should not except in extreme circumstances which would need to be examined on a case by case basis.

 

 

Interestingly, we have Ahadeeth from the Prophet which says the soul enters the body after 40 days of conception. 

[baqar]

What if those parents thwart God's plans?   

 

No power on earth can ever thwart God's plans.

 

Not the President of the most powerful country in the world nor the Queen of the once most powerful country in the world.

 

No one.

 

The Creator knows better than we do, what we need to progress and grow in this life.

 

 

But I agree that the matter should not be treated lightly.

However, God wouldn't be God if anyone could thwart His plans! 

[PeaceLoving]

Hi Clynn

 

We can disobey and even defy God as much as we wish. But we cannot thwart His plans.

 

He is much too powerful for little midgets like you and me to even think on those lines.  

 

Cheers 

 

Peace

[CLynn]

Some notes from my studies of today.

 

Strong's Hebrew concordance;
adam - blood
sarah - power
israel - from 'sarah' 'el'

the life is in the blood... ?  Leviticus 17:11, 14 (cp. Deuteronomy 12:23)

For the life of the flesh is in the blood...

his blood cries out to me from the earth...

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;  (Genesis 4)

the more blood we spill upon the earth the more cursed we have become (?)

[CLynn]

Something I just heard/learned today.

 

apparently St. Augustine also made a statement about the soul entering the fetus - at 3 months - however apparently within the Catholic (original) church there has never been any debate, or question, about the fact that life begins at conception.

[PeaceLoving]

St. Augustine also made a statement about the soul entering the fetus - at 3 months 

 

The biological life is different from the soul.  The soul does not have to enter the body at the same time as the breath of life.