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Ali-F

Sayed Haydari About Seeing Imam Al-Mahdi

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Ayatollah Kamal al-Haydari about seeing Imam Mahdi (and other things):

 

 

 

 

 

Short explanation of what the Sayed says:

 

1. Imam Mahdi is not al "Muntazar" because if he is "Al-Muntazar" then we are waiting for him, and that's not true, therefore he is "Al-Muntazir" beacuse he waits for us.

 

2.  The sayed quotes a letter (he also shows it from book of al-Tusi) from Imam Mahdi (aj) to al-Sammari the fourth representive of al-Imam, saying (amongst other things):     "La Dhu'hora"  that means basiacally that Imam Mahdi will not come out again, i.e he will go into ghaybah, and will not see the people.

 

3. And here comes the most important thing: The sayed also reads up where Imam Mahdi says that there will be shias who will claim to have seen the Imam, and those who say that they have seen him, they are liers.. Actually the sayed also explains that; What about ulama as Ibn Tawooz and Bahruloom, and the sayed says that they have not said that that they have seen the Imam, but rather after them, it is said that he saw the imam. And that's important to note.

 

4. And also that those who say that you can see Imam Mahdi on arafa, and the sayed says that you can see the imam, but you do not know that it is him.

 

5. And he also says that those who say that they have seen the hujjah, so let's say that they clamied to see al-Hujjah: How do they know that it is the Imam? The sayed gives a example: If he saw a man and he says "I am Rasoolallah" should he then believe in him?

 

 

___

 

Actually the fifth point is very important, because those who say (when claming to see the Imam in a dream: "It is a feeling" - that's false, because that feeling can be false. However, if seeing him in real life, this "feeling" cannot be used (even though it is a bad argument) because how come you say you have seen the imam, if you don't know him?

 

 

 

 

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Didn't Khomeini claim to meet with Imam Mahdi?

 

بِسْــــــــــــــــــمِ اﷲِالرَّحْمَنِ اارَّحِيم

 

 

Akhī, what sources do you have for the above mentioned incident? We have ahadīth which state anyone who claims to have met with the Master of this Affair [aj] is a liar. Although, if God willed for someone to meet with the Imam [a], then it is certainly possible. And God knows best. 

 

 

Ws. 

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Hm.. If you scroll down, you see this name "Ne’matullah Jazairiye Husayni" it seems that this person have narrated this incident, and, this is what al-Hayadri says; that these do not say that they have seen the Imam.

 

 

This is not a proof, and Allah knows best.

 

People can meet with the Imam, perhaps in the dream world. That's all that I'm going to say.

 

Dear brother Ibn-al-Shahid, may Allah protect you.

 

What wonders me, and let me have this iskhal, is that; How come they know it is the Imam of our time? That's a simple and actually a question, but the answer to me have been about this feeling. This doesn't make sense at all.

 

And Allah knows best.

Edited by Ali-F

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Me personally, I believe we can see him. I also believe in the events of our scholars seeing him a.s.

 

3- A question might come up here which is: "If it is possible to see the imam (aj), then how come there are hadiths that tell us to deny the claims of those who say they have seen the imam?

 

The answer to this question is that there are hadiths that tell us whoever claims to have seen the imam before the emergence of the Sufyani and "the cry"[13] is a liar.[14] Regarding these hadiths, our scholars have said: "What the imam means by "seeing" [when he says those who claim to have seen me], is for one to claim to have seen him and say that he is the imam's "specific" representative, like the four representatives he had during his minor occultation.[15] In any case, none of these hadiths reject the possibility of seeing the imam, all they say is to deny the claims of those who say they have seen him. When we read about the lives of some of the great individuals who had seen the imam (aj), we see that none of them neither announced nor took advantage of what had taken place for them; in many cases, they had concealed it until their deaths and after that others had found out.

 

Without a doubt, being able to see the imam (aj) takes a lot of hard work and effort.

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1084

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The hadiths say that anyone who claims to have seen him(as) is a liar. It's clear.  

 

Do you see our scholars going around telling everyone they have seen Imam Mahdi A.S?

Edited by PureEthics

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PureEthics

What is the difference between claming to see the imam to others, and keeping it for himself?

No difference

 

Not necessarily. When someone says "Anyone who claims that they have seen the Imam is a liar" doesn't mean that no one can see the Imam. It may mean that the Imam tells them not to tell anyone about it. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it puts the life of the person in danger because of certain knowledge that he has acquired from the Imam. We do not know.

 

Honestly, if you're close to the Imam—and by close I mean that there is a daily and maybe even an hourly monajat and talking to him—then I do not see a reason why the Imam doesn't visit you in your dreams. But as far as in real life, we don't know him. I have heard that when the Imam appears everyone will be shocked because he will seem very familiar to us all. 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

When someone says they met the Imam(ATFS), can it be interpreted as them having seen him but just not physically?

 

In other words, let us use God(Swt) as an example, the seconds before we rear end our car or if one is about to die underwater drowning, Allah(swt) always comes into our hearts and we see him, just not physically.

 

I do not mean to compare Imam Mahdi(ATFS) with God(Swt) however, can one see him even if not physical presence? I have heard this before from some Shia Scholars. 

 

If so, what does seeing him mean in regards to Ali F's third point? 

 

(wasalam)   

Edited by FisherKing

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

When someone says they met the Imam(ATFS), can it be interpreted as them having seen him but just not physically?

 

In other words, let us use God(Swt) as an example, the seconds before we rear end our car or if one is about to die underwater drowning, Allah(swt) always comes into our hearts and we see him, just not physically.

 

I do not mean to compare Imam Mahdi(ATFS) with God(Swt) however, can one see him even if not physical presence? I have heard this before from some Shia Scholars. 

 

If so, what does seeing him mean in regards to Ali F's third point? 

 

(wasalam)   

 

Imam Mahdi is among us, and he lives his life (like we do). In other words, he is not invisible. So, how come can a person say that he saw al-Hujjah (aj) when he doesn't know if it is him.

 

Well, if I today walked to your house at fajr time, with my pure white dishadesh and a turban, (looking like the imams in the old times), and looked at you, just looking. How come you say that I am the Imam, just because you felt it or you saw a man? That's not logical. Not only that, if I spoke to you and said "I am the Mahdi" i.e I SAID IT to you, what's the proof?

 

May Allah guide all and me.

Edited by Ali-F

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Imam Mahdi is among us, and he lives his life (like we do). In other words, he is not invisible. So, how come can a person say that he saw al-Hujjah (aj) when he doesn't know if it is him.

 

Well, if I today walked to your house at fajr time, with my pure white dishadesh and a turban, (looking like the imams in the old times), and looked at you, just looking. How come you say that I am the Imam, just because you felt it or you saw a man? That's not logical. Not only that, if I spoke to you and said "I am the Mahdi" i.e I SAID IT to you, what's the proof?

 

May Allah guide all and me.

 

(salam)

 

Dear Brother,

 

Yes okay I understand. However what about Mojzas? Or in english rare or mysterious happenings of maybe things moving? Stuff out of the ordinary during important months like Shabban for example, which can relate to Imam Mahdi(ATFS)? 

 

(wasalam)

Edited by FisherKing

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(salam)

 

Dear Brother,

 

Yes okay I understand. However what about Mojzas? Or in english rare or mysterious happenings of maybe things moving? Stuff out of the ordinary during important months like Shabban for example, which can relate to Imam Mahdi(ATFS)? 

 

(wasalam)

 

That depedens on what type of mojazat it is.

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I have a strong belief that our scholars meet with our Imam. And they represent him.

. My dad told me from his grandfather that his friend was a great scholar from Iran. I will not write the complete incident. But he did say don't tell this to anyone as long as he is alive. He said we scholars meet with Imam Mehdi every Thursday night at someplace (I forgot. Basra/kufa/marina idk)

Edited by Lordofgemini

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I have a strong belief that our scholars meet with our Imam. And they represent him.

. My dad told me from his grandfather that his friend was a great scholar from Iran. I will not write the complete incident. But he did say don't tell this to anyone as long as he is alive. He said we scholars meet with Imam Mehdi every Thursday night at someplace (I forgot. Basra/kufa/marina idk)

 

 

Meet with Imam Mahdi? That's not logical, brother. How can you meet our Imam, when he is in ghaybah? Not only that: Every thursday?! 

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See this thread on this same topic: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235016274-syed-haidari-on-possibility-to-meet-imam-mahdi/

 


So firstly, he makes the distinction between "the Awaited Mahdi" and "the Awaiting Mahdi". He seems to agree with the latter; saying that the Mahdi is awaiting a community that is ready for him, which is when he will be allowed to appear. This of course is a very popular modern interpretation, but I'm not convinced of this. The tradition suggests that the Mahdi would only appear in a modern jahiliyya, in a dire and chaotic environment, where the Umma will be so corrupt and away from the straight path. The Mahdi will only have a few thousand followers, which does not suggest that he will have a good and pious Umma waiting for him. He's going to start from scratch, the way the Prophet (pbuh) started... and so this idea of the Mahdi awaiting a pious Umma, in my view, is not really supported. He'll come at a time when the people have abandoned the cause of Ahl Muhammad. And Allah knows best.

 

Then the topic of focus is this last tawqee` of the Imam. It's worth mentioning that the letter is not actually reliable, and it isn't given special emphasis by Saduq or the classical scholars. It's kind of just put into Kamal ad-Deen... I'm not saying it's insignificant, but it's not an established and esteemed report. Nonetheless, I don't see a reason to cast it aside either, as it could very well be the last letter of our Imam.

 

I largely agree with Sayyid al-Haydari in that the stories of people seeing the Imam during his major ghayba are mostly dubious. Most of the modern stories are based on hearsay, "My friend's friend in Qum heard that sayyid so-and-so met the Imam". How many times have we heard that? When it comes down to it, there's absolutely no way to verify if someone had actually seen the Imam or not. People have a tendency to exaggerate or make up stories, and that happens in every religion. And even if someone did, he would not go out publicly and claim it.

There are some older, written references of scholars meeting the Imam, but even then, most of these stories are written long after the fact. Sometimes, even centuries later. There's a story that the Mahdi had signed a book of `Allamah al-Hilli (ra), but the earliest reference to it was long after his death.

I don't believe it's impossible for the Imam to meet people in the ghayba, but the traditions suggest that we would not recognize him if we saw him. We have hadiths about him doing Hajj and walking in the market place unnoticed. What al-Haydari does not mention here is that some have debated the term "mushahada". The letter may be condemning those who claim to "witness" the Imam, i.e., claim to be his representative, and not those who claim to only "see" (رأى) the Imam. Another interpretation: the hadith may just be condemning those who publicly claim witnessing, rather than those who witness and keep it to themselves. And Allah knows best.

 

There's a very relevant and reliable hadith on this matter which says that the "special supporters" (خاصة موالي) will know the place of the Mahdi in his major ghayba. The scholars debated the meaning of this. Some said that these were his family members. Others said that they were his 313 companions. Others said that they were a security force that keeps the imam safe and in company (perhaps angels or very close followers). Another hadith says that al-Khidr (as) keeps the Hidden Imam company. Again, "knowing his place" does not mean they see or visit him. It could just be referring to knowledge of his place of hiding. And Allah knows best.

Edited by Qa'im

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Can someone please explain me then why does everyone say if you go to masjide sahla for forty Tuesdays in a row on the 40th Tuesday you meet the imam?

It doesn't say it's definite. It's just a possibility.

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It doesn't say it's definite. It's just a possibility.

Well then doesnt it mean its possible to meet the imam? Whats your view on it akhi . Cause ive heard frm pretty credible sources such as lectures from sheikh ammar about scholars who met the imam.

Im pretty sure he wouldnt just preach on the minbar without extensive research and verification.

I have always thought, and still do think that a particular elite group of people can meet the imam. Obviously not sinners like me, but pious people for instance people like the maraja etc.

Edited by Muditz786

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Well then doesnt it mean its possible to meet the imam? Whats your view on it akhI. Cause ive heard frm pretty credible sources such as lectures from sheikh hassanain about scholars who met the imam.

Im pretty sure he wouldnt just preach on the minbar without extensive research and verifying what he says

I have stated it above. As brother Qa'im stated, there is no source that mentions it isn't possible. It is possible, but I like to believe the stories of our scholars meeting him a.s. I believe the possibility of one who is utmost pious, is limitless. Yes we can never prove it, but why would that matter. You see, the fact that it is possible for us to see the imam, gives one the strength and strive to submit fully to Allah to have such an honor of meeting and being with one of His chosen ones. It resonates our hearts as we yearn to be one of his followers. This, I believe is one of the wisdoms behind his occultation.

(Wasalam)

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Bismillah

 

Brother Qa'im, if it's not to much trouble, could you post the hadith regarding the 'khaasat al-Mawaali', i've been after it for some time now. 

 

Thanks.

 

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن ابن محبوب، عن إسحاق بن عمار قال: قال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): للقائم غيبتان: إحداهما قصيرة والاخرى طويلة، الغيبة الاولى لا يعلم بمكانه فيها إلا خاصة شيعته، والاخرى لا يعلم بمكانه فيها إلا خاصة مواليه.

 

 

Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from ibn Mahbub from Is`haq b. `Ammar.[1]

 

He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام say: The Qa’im has two occultations (ghaybataan): the first will be short, and the second will be long. In the first occultation, no one will know his whereabouts except his devoted Shi`a, and in the other [occultation] no one will know his whereabouts except his special supporters (khasat mawali).[2] (al-Kafi)

(muwathaq) (موثق)

[1] Is`haq b. `Ammar was a reliable (thiqa) companion of Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq and Imam Musa al-Kadhim, and he was a Fat`hi.

[2] The devoted Shi`a were the trustees and the companions of the Mahdi during his minor occultation. The identity of his special supporters during the major occultation is unknown. al-Majlisi puts forward three possibilities: they are either a family, a security force, or the three hundred and thirteen companions that he will rise with.

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Shaykh al-Korani says that there is great scholars who say that they have seen the Imam...Well, that's actually not true. Which great scholar said: "I saw the Imam" - it is most likely only a narrative i.e " I  heard fulan' said this"..

Edited by Ali-F

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How to recognize the Imam(as).

 

An Angel positioned above HIS(as) Head will introduce HIM even if its a dream. Remember you will hear it in your own language  and if you speak English  HE will be introduced as "The Guided Leader", Mahdi is an Arabic word.

 

 

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Sayyid al Haydari hitting back at those who said he was attacking the Imam (as). 

 

I quote him "Who was is that stood up in front of this wahhabi attack in recent years on the satellites? Was that not for the Mahdi? The rest of you were in your houses as though you were dead!"  :!!!:  He's got a point you know.

 

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When the Imam said that people won't be able to see him he meant it, to claim someone has seen the Imam is false, they might think they have seen him but they haven't because at this phase the whole point is that he can't be seen, if the Imam said he won't meet people then meets someone, wouldn't that make him a liar?

 

therefore the Imam is ghayb which means no one can see him. Even those who claim to have seen him, they may be hallucinating or dreaming.

 

Also how would they know its the Imam, you must have seen the Imam before in order to recognize him.

 

So its a lie when someone claims to have seen the Imam.

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Hmm....Just watched a video about this. Sheikh Yasser responding to Sayed Kamal Haydari. about this subject.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-7NoM1rM

 

 

Sayyid al Haydari hitting back at those who said he was attacking the Imam (as). 

 

I quote him "Who was is that stood up in front of this wahhabi attack in recent years on the satellites? Was that not for the Mahdi? The rest of you were in your houses as though you were dead!"  :!!!:  He's got a point you know.

 

 

 

An interesting point is when he says that he agrees with what ulama says and disagree.. And he also said "mashoor al ulama" what does that exactly mean? 

 

Hmm....Just watched a video about this. Sheikh Yasser responding to Sayed Kamal Haydari. about this subject.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PK-7NoM1rM

 

By Allah, I didn't even listen to him. I keep myself with al-Haydari (ha). 

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By Allah, I didn't even listen to him. I keep myself with al-Haydari (ha). 

Why? Sheikh Yasser Habib is one of only a small group of true Rawafidh out there. He defends Shiism, debates Sunnis, and is a great speaker. We shouldn't hate people just because of rumors. He's not a British agent, nor is his whole purpose to create fitnah. We should in fact defend him, not attack him. 

 

al-Haydari....where do I start. Brother, Kamal Haydari recently accused Imam Ali(as) of being a failure. Go search for the video, it's popular now. He's not very deserving any more of (ha) after his name, with all due respect. 

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