Help Me Find A Marja

[Abu Talib Minnesotai]

Bismillah...

 

Salam,

 

I do not follow the concept of taqlid but I am currently looking into this subject, however I'm having difficulty researching maraji due to the lack of good English sources. In order for me to have confidence in this Marja he must possess three characteristics:

 

1. He's able to issue guidance in English. It doesn't mean he's required to have published English books, but rather, if I need to write into his office my English question will be answered in English.

 

2. He hasn't issued fatawa against someone's life.

 

3. He is an advocate for human rights. If he is Iranian he must support equal rights and representation for the Baha`i community there.

 

If #1 is an issue, where a particular marja meets #2 & 3 but cannot correspond in English then please state their name anyways. I appreciate everyone's opinion. Thank you.

[mighdad]

Wouldn,t you like any thing extra??!!

Do you seek really for a Marja?

I believe you look for a follower!!You are not the one who determines the features of a scholar but rather Allah swt and Imams are the ones.

Regarding the first item (which looks more rational) most of scholars have websites providing English section  and answer English questions

According to other conditions!! if you mean by human rights the ones that are announced by universal organizations every year that would be valueless in Islamic laws however there are many human rights  specified in Islamic teaches and supported by all scholars

No scholar issued against other's life except the ones defined in Islamic practices. Mrajis do not issue any thing in case they find no support in Islamic laws

The process of finding a marja is specified in all scholars's Risala 

Summarily you have to find a qualified scholar who is able to deduce Islamic laws through quranic verses and true narrations the most and more than the others

[Al-Englisi]

Bismillah...

 

Salam,

 

I do not follow the concept of taqlid but I am currently looking into this subject, however I'm having difficulty researching maraji due to the lack of good English sources. In order for me to have confidence in this Marja he must possess three characteristics:

 

1. He's able to issue guidance in English. It doesn't mean he's required to have published English books, but rather, if I need to write into his office my English question will be answered in English.

 

2. He hasn't issued fatawa against someone's life.

 

3. He is an advocate for human rights. If he is Iranian he must support equal rights and representation for the Baha`i community there.

 

If #1 is an issue, where a particular marja meets #2 & 3 but cannot correspond in English then please state their name anyways. I appreciate everyone's opinion. Thank you.

 

Bismillah

 

If you truly believe in #2 and #3, you may want to pick another religion rather than a marj'a.

 

There is no such thing as equal rights in Islam. We have a system and margin to judge and separate individuals, the greatest of which is belief. Non-believers are not like believers, people of different faith had to pay a tax to live in Muslim lands - Jhizyeh, and were referred to as 'dhimee'.

 

There are situations which arise where Islam calls for the execution of people, so if need be, the RELIGION may issue a verdict against someones life. 

 

Although i get the impression that motives other than finding a marj'a are also at play here, i answered in hope to stop the thread from unnecessarily getting to long. 

 

If you do find a marj'a with those last two conditions, let us know so we DON'T do his taqlid. 

[mesbah]

Brother!

Salam

Inshaallah others will help you find your ideal-imaginary marja', but I just want to tell you 2 points:

1- don't believe what western medias are claiming about human rights, equality and other lies. Look at the realities in the globe.

2- don't believe what they say about baha'ees, that's a political issue.

btw, as brothers said, you don't need a marja', you're a marja' yourself, but you're a secular one!

[Abu Talib Minnesotai]

“When they are told to refer to the guidance of Allah and to the Messenger, they say, “The tradition of our fathers is sufficient for our guidance,” even though, in fact, their fathers had neither knowledge nor proper guidance. (5:104)”

When those of you who defend the positions of fallible men as being more or less infallible and leave no room for objectivism you remind me of the above verse, because any person who finds it acceptable for the sinful to execute the sinful is indeed in error and fails to call to mind the most elegant verse of our beautiful religion, "Bismallahi Rahmani Rahim."

I believe Ayatollah Montazeri was one such individual who fit what I had described, with the exception of English correspondence.

[mesbah]

“When they are told to refer to the guidance of Allah and to the Messenger, they say, “The tradition of our fathers is sufficient for our guidance,” even though, in fact, their fathers had neither knowledge nor proper guidance. (5:104)”

When those of you who defend the positions of fallible men as being more or less infallible and leave no room for objectivism you remind me of the above verse, because any person who finds it acceptable for the sinful to execute the sinful is indeed in error and fails to call to mind the most elegant verse of our beautiful religion, "Bismallahi Rahmani Rahim."

I believe Ayatollah Montazeri was one such individual who fit what I had described, with the exception of English correspondence.

You mean shaykh montazari believed the ruling of qisas was not a part of Islamic jurisprudence? He disbelieved in this verse?:

O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the femal. 2:178

Allah orders us to kill murderers. And I'm sure shaykh montazari did't have contrasting opinion in this regard, otherwise he wouldn't be a muslim, since in this case he'd reject an explicit ruling of Qur'an. In fact he was a top ranking clerical official within the early years of revolution in Iran and he didn't oppose the execution verdicts issued by islamic court.

Did he also disbelieve this verse:

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. 48:29

According to this verse, how do you think we should Deal with baha'ees?

Brother! Don't leave true Islam and Qur'an verses because of western medias' propaganda.

And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper. 2:120

Edited March 25, 2014 by mesbah

[mostafaa]

oh, that's too bad.

a few years ago he died and you lost your chance of following him.

I don't think you'll be able to find a similar Mar'ja so soon.

Edited March 25, 2014 by mostafaa

[baqar]

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. 48:29

 

The word 'hard' in that verse means 'firm' and not to try to placate them.

 

It does not mean 'harsh' or 'rough'.

 

There are many many verses requiring justice and kindness to everyone.

 

According to this verse, how do you think we should Deal with baha'ees?

 

Firmly but kindly and justly

[mesbah]

 

Firmly but kindly and justly

Fair enough. So you accept there's a difference in our attitude toward a believer and an infidel? Qur'an says there's a difference, Whatever the interpretation is.

Our brother (abu talib) here believes other shia scholars in Iran are making mistakes in their attitude toward bahaa'ees. (Based on what western medias - the only honest guardians of human rights in our era- are reporting)

[narsis]

Bismillah.

 

Salaam.

 

For those who are living in abroad of Iran and want to refer to someone easily in English, Ayatullah Khamenei and Ayatullah Sistani can be good offers.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

[Abu Talib Minnesotai]

Our brother (abu talib) here believes other shia scholars in Iran are making mistakes in their attitude toward bahaa'ees.

 

I believe in the western ideal of having separation between judge and advocate. You wouldn't want your lawyer to be your judge, now would you? To me, this "western" ideal is indeed Islamic and was emphasized by Imam `Ali [as]. Only a system that is one-sided and tyrannical would judge according to their own predefined standards. If you say it's the religion which defines these standards then who defines what exactly constitutes the religion? I'm pretty sure the majority of Baha`is in Iran aren't plotting to undermine the Islamic regime nor are they committing any offenses worthy of corporeal punishment under Islamic law, since their religion is very similar to ours. I find it funny that the number of Baha`is in Iran is larger than other minorities who receive parliamentary seats under the Iranian constitution, like Christians and Jews, yet the Baha`is are not granted any representation. Some may claim their numbers are exaggerated by western outlets but then again these same people would likely make the claim that the holocaust was also exaggerated or flat-out didn't happen. It all revolves around a level of intolerance.

[robbenmessi1010]

I expect attacks from everyone by saying this:

 

I don't do taqleed of scholars, and neither should you. It's not wajib, and anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know or is lying. Especially when they tell you ''You're actions are all not accepted if you don't do Taqleed''....Beware of the lies. The only Taqleed a person must do is taqleed of the prophet(SAW) and Imams(A), since they're infallible. Sorry I can't answer your question, I just have to get this out. 

[Ethics]

Brother this is what Marja Ayatollah Sistani has to say about Taqlid:

 

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith with his own insight and understanding, and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another who knows, simply because he has said it. However, one who has faith in the true tenets of Islam, and manifests it by his deeds, is a Muslim and Mo'min, even if he is not very profound, and the laws related to a Muslim will hold good for him. In matters of religious laws, apart from the ones clearly defined, or ones which are indisputable, a person must:

either be a Mujtahid (jurist) himself, capable of inferring and deducing from the religious sources and evidence; or if he is not a Mujtahid himself, he should follow one, i.e. he should act accordi ng to the verdicts (Fatwa) of the Mujtahid;or if he is neither a Mujtahid nor a follower (Muqallid), he should act on such precaution which should assure him that he has fulfilled his religious obligation. For example, if some Mujtahids consider an act to be haraam, while others say that it is not, he should not perform that act. Similarly, if some Mujtahid consider an act to be obligatory (Wajib) while others consider it to be recommended (Mustahab), he should perform it. Therefore, it is obligatory upon those persons who are neither Mujta hids, nor able to act on precautionary measures (Ihtiyat), to follow a Mujtahid.
Mujtahid is a jurist competent enough to deduce precise inferences regarding the commandments from the holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the holy Prophet by the process of Ijtihad. Ijtihad literally means striving and exerting. Technically as a term of jurisprudence it signifies the application by a jurist of all his faculties to the consideration of the authorities of law with a view to finding out what in all probability is the law. In other words Ijtihad means making deductions in matters of law, in the cases to which no express text is applicable. (See, Baqir Sadr, A Short History of 'llmul Usul, ISP, 1984).

2. Taqlid in religious laws means acting according to the verdict of a Mujtahid. It is necessary for the Mujtahid who is followed, to be male, Shi'ah Ithna Ash'ari, adult, sane, of legitimate birth, living and just ('Adil). A person is said to be just whe n he performs all those acts which are obligatory upon him, and refrains from all those things which are forbidden to him. And the sign of being just is that one is apparently of a good character, so that if enquiries are made about him from the people of his locality, or from his neighbours, or from those persons with whom he lives, they would confirm his good conduct. And if one knows that the verdicts of the Mujtahids differ with regard to the problems which we face in every day life, it is necessary t hat the Mujtahid who is followed be A'lam (the most learned), who is more capable of understanding the divine laws than any of the contemporary Mujtahids.

3. There are three ways of identifying a Mujtahid, and the A'alam:
when a person is certain that a particular person is a Mujtahid, or the most learned one. For this, he should be a learned person himself, and should possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or an A'alam; when two persons, who are learned and just and possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or the A'alam, confirm that a person is a Mujtahid or an A'lam, provided that two other learned and just persons do not contradict them. In fact, being a Mujt ahid or an A'lam can also be established by a statement of only one trusted and reliable person; when a number of learned persons who possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or an A'lam, certify that a particular person is a Mujtahid or an A'lam, provided that one is satisfied by their statement.

 

Check out some links here:

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2116/

http://www.sistani.org/english/book/46/2027/

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa1078

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa12008

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa678

 

I expect attacks from everyone by saying this:

 

I don't do taqleed of scholars, and neither should you. It's not wajib, and anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know or is lying. Especially when they tell you ''You're actions are all not accepted if you don't do Taqleed''....Beware of the lies. The only Taqleed a person must do is taqleed of the prophet(SAW) and Imams(A), since they're infallible. Sorry I can't answer your question, I just have to get this out. 

 

So how much years have you spent studying islam? Have you got your scholarship yet to even have the ability to make ijtihad? Can you read arabic? How many books do you have access to? Please explain to me your process of rijal and how you derive rulings, I would like to know since you should know everything right?

If I ask you a question on any issue will you give me a clear cut answer right away, or would you need to take months to do research then let me know? If the latter is the answer, I dont even know how you dictate what is allowed and what isnt. Oh well, you will be judged by the actions you choose.

[Abu Talib Minnesotai]

 

So how much years have you spent studying islam? Have you got your scholarship yet to even have the ability to make ijtihad? Can you read arabic? How many books do you have access to? Please explain to me your process of rijal and how you derive rulings, I would like to know since you should know everything right?

If I ask you a question on any issue will you give me a clear cut answer right away, or would you need to take months to do research then let me know? If the latter is the answer, I dont even know how you dictate what is allowed and what isnt. Oh well, you will be judged by the actions you choose.

 

[sarwar 39:52] (Muhammad), tell my servants who have committed injustice to themselves, “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Allah certainly forgives all sins. He is All-forgiving and All-merciful.”

 

[Khalifa 39:53] Proclaim: "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of GOD's mercy. For GOD forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.”

 

[shakir 39:53] Say: O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely He is the Forgiving the Merciful.

 

[Yusuf Ali 39:53] Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

BAM! It took me five minutes to put this together. I realize you were talking to robbenmessi1010 but in his defense there is no need for taqlid, personally speaking. Ayatollah Sistani's ruling remains merely Ayatollah Sistani's opinion, and we can each personally chose to follow his judgments or not. I personally don't adhere to the concept of taqlid rigorously; I think of it more as a reference tool and not as a binding authority. The only binding authority for me is the Qur`an. Everything besides the Qur`an I take with a grain of salt.

 

Speak Arabic you say? Well, modern research methods are pretty darn good and a person doesn't need to know Arabic to understand that Allah is all-merciful. That means, if I try my best to succeed in righteousness but fall short Allah will forgive me—Verily! Allah is compassionate and merciful.

 

So before you start flaunting your arrogance with sarcasm about matters of jurisprudence, as if it makes you a better in the eyes of Allah, take a look in the Qur`an and ponder its meaning, without blind imitation. “It is their hearts which are blind, not their ears. (22:46)"

[Ethics]

[sarwar 39:52] (Muhammad), tell my servants who have committed injustice to themselves, “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Allah certainly forgives all sins. He is All-forgiving and All-merciful.”

[Khalifa 39:53] Proclaim: "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of GOD's mercy. For GOD forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.”

[shakir 39:53] Say: O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely He is the Forgiving the Merciful.

[Yusuf Ali 39:53] Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

BAM! It took me five minutes to put this together. I realize you were talking to robbenmessi1010 but in his defense there is no need for taqlid, personally speaking. Ayatollah Sistani's ruling remains merely Ayatollah Sistani's opinion, and we can each personally chose to follow his judgments or not. I personally don't adhere to the concept of taqlid rigorously; I think of it more as a reference tool and not as a binding authority. The only binding authority for me is the Qur`an. Everything besides the Qur`an I take with a grain of salt.

Speak Arabic you say? Well, modern research methods are pretty darn good and a person doesn't need to know Arabic to understand that Allah is all-merciful. That means, if I try my best to succeed in righteousness but fall short Allah will forgive me—Verily! Allah is compassionate and merciful.

So before you start flaunting your arrogance with sarcasm about matters of jurisprudence, as if it makes you a better in the eyes of Allah, take a look in the Qur`an and ponder its meaning, without blind imitation. “It is their hearts which are blind, not their ears. (22:46)"

Lol. Umm okay brother. Thanks for letting us know Allah forgives sins. InshAllah he will forgive my arrogance ^_^

By the way, rationally you have no proved anything. Suppose we have no Hadith in which tells us to follow Marjas, it doesn't mean we don't have to, for there are verses in the Quran which tell us to ask people of knowledge. I can bring the verse if you want me to :) .

[mesbah]

[sarwar 39:52] (Muhammad), tell my servants who have committed injustice to themselves, “Do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Allah certainly forgives all sins. He is All-forgiving and All-merciful.”

 

[Khalifa 39:53] Proclaim: "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of GOD's mercy. For GOD forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.”

 

[shakir 39:53] Say: O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely He is the Forgiving the Merciful.

 

[Yusuf Ali 39:53] Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

 

BAM! It took me five minutes to put this together. I realize you were talking to robbenmessi1010 but in his defense there is no need for taqlid, personally speaking. Ayatollah Sistani's ruling remains merely Ayatollah Sistani's opinion, and we can each personally chose to follow his judgments or not. I personally don't adhere to the concept of taqlid rigorously; I think of it more as a reference tool and not as a binding authority. The only binding authority for me is the Qur`an. Everything besides the Qur`an I take with a grain of salt.

 

Speak Arabic you say? Well, modern research methods are pretty darn good and a person doesn't need to know Arabic to understand that Allah is all-merciful. That means, if I try my best to succeed in righteousness but fall short Allah will forgive me—Verily! Allah is compassionate and merciful.

 

So before you start flaunting your arrogance with sarcasm about matters of jurisprudence, as if it makes you a better in the eyes of Allah, take a look in the Qur`an and ponder its meaning, without blind imitation. “It is their hearts which are blind, not their ears. (22:46)"

Now I get it!

This is the way you ask for help in finding a marja'!

If you're this much enlightened about islam and Qur'an and islamic law and ..., why did you open a thread asking for help in finding a marja'?

Open a thread about necessity of taqleed and you'll be answered there.

[baqar]

The only binding authority for me is the Qur`an.  

 

That  is what the Marja is far better able to interpret for you than you yourself are. And that is why you should not rely on your own opinion in comparison to his.

 

The Quran is not a self-study book. Some parts are but certainly not all. You need to look beyond your little head to understand the Quran.    

 

Everything besides the Qur`an I take with a grain of salt.

 

Do you also take the words of the Prophet and the Imams with a grain of salt?

 

if you do, I am sorry to say that you cannot call yourself a Muslim. 

[mesbah]

I believe in the western ideal of having separation between judge and advocate. You wouldn't want your lawyer to be your judge, now would you? To me, this "western" ideal is indeed Islamic and was emphasized by Imam `Ali [as]. Only a system that is one-sided and tyrannical would judge according to their own predefined standards. If you say it's the religion which defines these standards then who defines what exactly constitutes the religion? I'm pretty sure the majority of Baha`is in Iran aren't plotting to undermine the Islamic regime nor are they committing any offenses worthy of corporeal punishment under Islamic law, since their religion is very similar to ours. I find it funny that the number of Baha`is in Iran is larger than other minorities who receive parliamentary seats under the Iranian constitution, like Christians and Jews, yet the Baha`is are not granted any representation. Some may claim their numbers are exaggerated by western outlets but then again these same people would likely make the claim that the holocaust was also exaggerated or flat-out didn't happen. It all revolves around a level of intolerance.

 

1- there's a direct order in Qur'an to have different attitude toward infidels, what is the fallacy of "judge-advocate separation" then? does this need a court to prove bahaa'ees are infidels? people who believe a guy living some years ago was god and the prophethood continues after Islam? people who believe Islam is incomplete and they have a new version of a religion in which sibling marriage is permissible? it is a consensus among great shia scholars that any kind of financial dealing (transactions) and marriage with these people is Haram and most of them issued fatwas about them being Najis.

 

2- under the constitution of IRI, followers of any Abrahamic religion with sacred scripture (Christians, Jews) and followers of any of four schools of Ahl-Al-Sunnah, (Shafi'ee, Hanafi, Maliki, Hanbali) can have members in parliament. bahaa'ees are following a fake, man-made so called "religion" that was produced for colonial purposes. (the "trend" is that much political and stupid that can't even be called a "religion")

 

3- you are accusing great shia scholars of not understanding Islam and Qura'nic laws. citing some verses about Allah swt being merciful does not support your claim. one should have a comprehensive understanding of Qur'an.

 

4- if you want to be free, be brave enough and say proudly: I don't accept Quran as a whole, I don't accept the ruling of qisas, I don't accept the distinction between believers and disbelievers as stated in Qur'an. and Also be honest enough not to change the word Of Allah swt, simply say I don't accept this part which means you don't accept the whole:

 

What! Do you believe in part of the Book and defy another part? So what is the requital of those of you who do that except disgrace in the life of this world? And on the Day of Resurrection, they shall be consigned to the severest punishment. And Allah is not oblivious of what you do. 2:58

 

 

btw, your "western ideal" in separation of judge-advocate, applies to the manner of Security Council and the veto thing, huh?

or the way they separate judge (u.s.) and advocate (israel)?

to me the form of western justice is  so much ideal that it can not be called justice!

 

 

I expect attacks from everyone by saying this:

 

I don't do taqleed of scholars, and neither should you. It's not wajib, and anyone who tells you otherwise either doesn't know or is lying. Especially when they tell you ''You're actions are all not accepted if you don't do Taqleed''....Beware of the lies. The only Taqleed a person must do is taqleed of the prophet(SAW) and Imams(A), since they're infallible. Sorry I can't answer your question, I just have to get this out. 

 

well, I expect anything from someone with this Idea. any haram action would be justified by this kind of thinking. 

you can interpret faith however you wish, and this is exactly what first two so-called caliphs did, rejecting the authority and depending on their own ideas. 

Edited March 26, 2014 by mesbah

[robbenmessi1010]

 

So how much years have you spent studying islam? Have you got your scholarship yet to even have the ability to make ijtihad? Can you read arabic? How many books do you have access to? Please explain to me your process of rijal and how you derive rulings, I would like to know since you should know everything right?

If I ask you a question on any issue will you give me a clear cut answer right away, or would you need to take months to do research then let me know? If the latter is the answer, I dont even know how you dictate what is allowed and what isnt. Oh well, you will be judged by the actions you choose.

I don't think you understand this yet: The Usuli idea that you MUST imitate a scholar is false. Our Imams(as) never said this is wajib. You might quote me a hadith by Imam Hasan al-Askari(as) that says that if the faqih has certain characteristics, then it is allowed for the people to do taqleed of him. It most certainly doesn't say it is obligatory. I can't totally deny this hadith, despite it being Da'eef in Sanad. However, we also have a hadith by Imam Ja'afar al-Sadiq(as) which says that Taqleed of scholars is haram. This hadith is found in Sheikh al-Mufeed's Book, ''Tasheeh A'kaid al-Imamiyyah''

 

 

Quran:  ''They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.'' 9:31

 

Let me ask you a question: what is the tafsir of this verse? Why is Allah calling the Jews and christians mushrikeen?? They never prayed to their priests and rabbis, nor did they fast for them. What did they do so bad to get this label of mushrik? Let's see what Imam Ja'afar(as) says:

قال - عليه السلام - : ( إياكم والتقليد ، فإنه من قلد في دينه هلك ) إن الله تعالى يقول : ( اتخذوا أحبارهم ورهبانهم أربابا من دون الله ) فلا والله ما صلوا لهم ولا صاموا ، ولكنهم أحلوا لهم حراما ، وحرموا عليهم - حلالا ، فقلدوهم في ذلك ، فعبدوهم وهم لا يشعرون ) .)) تصحيح اعتقادات الإمامية - الشيخ المفيد - ص 72 - 73

 

He said: ''Beware of Taqleed, for whoever imitates in his religion has perished. Allah(swt ) says: ''They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah....'' By Allah, they did not pray to them, nor did they fast for them, but they made halal haram, and make haram halal, so they imitated them in that, so they worshipped them without them realizing it.''

 

Nice, perfect, and straightforward tafsir of the verse. They worshiped them by imitating them, with the excuse that ''They're more knowledgeable than us, so it's best to imitate them''. 

 

Bring me some real proof that Taqleed is wajib, and even better, one Nass or hadith shar3ee that says you're actions are void if you don't imitate a scholar. Tough luck. 

BTW, yes I know Arabic. 

Salam. 

 

well, I expect anything from someone with this Idea. any haram action would be justified by this kind of thinking. 

you can interpret faith however you wish, and this is exactly what first two so-called caliphs did, rejecting the authority and depending on their own ideas. 

No, that's not true. I follow the prophet(SAW) and Imams of Ahlul Bayt(as). That's it. No Wilayat al-Faqih here. The first 2 Caliphs rejected Imam Ali's authority. I reject fallible scholars' authority, since they have already made forbidden into halal. It's not the same thing. 

[tearingmyhairout]

Bismillah...

 

Salam,

 

I do not follow the concept of taqlid but I am currently looking into this subject, however I'm having difficulty researching maraji due to the lack of good English sources. In order for me to have confidence in this Marja he must possess three characteristics:

 

1. He's able to issue guidance in English. It doesn't mean he's required to have published English books, but rather, if I need to write into his office my English question will be answered in English.

 

2. He hasn't issued fatawa against someone's life.

 

3. He is an advocate for human rights. If he is Iranian he must support equal rights and representation for the Baha`i community there.

 

If #1 is an issue, where a particular marja meets #2 & 3 but cannot correspond in English then please state their name anyways. I appreciate everyone's opinion. Thank you.

 

ayatollah saanei: http://saanei.org/

[Ethics]

I don't think you understand this yet: The Usuli idea that you MUST imitate a scholar is false. Our Imams(as) never said this is wajib. You might quote me a hadith by Imam Hasan al-Askari(as) that says that if the faqih has certain characteristics, then it is allowed for the people to do taqleed of him. It most certainly doesn't say it is obligatory. I can't totally deny this hadith, despite it being Da'eef in Sanad. However, we also have a hadith by Imam Ja'afar al-Sadiq(as) which says that Taqleed of scholars is haram. This hadith is found in Sheikh al-Mufeed's Book, ''Tasheeh A'kaid al-Imamiyyah''

 

 

Quran:  ''They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.'' 9:31

 

Let me ask you a question: what is the tafsir of this verse? Why is Allah calling the Jews and christians mushrikeen?? They never prayed to their priests and rabbis, nor did they fast for them. What did they do so bad to get this label of mushrik? Let's see what Imam Ja'afar(as) says:

قال - عليه السلام - : ( إياكم والتقليد ، فإنه من قلد في دينه هلك ) إن الله تعالى يقول : ( اتخذوا أحبارهم ورهبانهم أربابا من دون الله ) فلا والله ما صلوا لهم ولا صاموا ، ولكنهم أحلوا لهم حراما ، وحرموا عليهم - حلالا ، فقلدوهم في ذلك ، فعبدوهم وهم لا يشعرون ) .)) تصحيح اعتقادات الإمامية - الشيخ المفيد - ص 72 - 73

 

He said: ''Beware of Taqleed, for whoever imitates in his religion has perished. Allah(swt ) says: ''They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah....'' By Allah, they did not pray to them, nor did they fast for them, but they made halal haram, and make haram halal, so they imitated them in that, so they worshipped them without them realizing it.''

 

Nice, perfect, and straightforward tafsir of the verse. They worshiped them by imitating them, with the excuse that ''They're more knowledgeable than us, so it's best to imitate them''. 

 

Bring me some real proof that Taqleed is wajib, and even better, one Nass or hadith shar3ee that says you're actions are void if you don't imitate a scholar. Tough luck. 

BTW, yes I know Arabic. 

Salam. 

Well, there are SAHIH hadiths from our 12th imam that say it is wajib.... For someone who does his own taqlid you should be aware of all hadith collections :dry: Reason dictates if you can never reach the level of having your own ijtihad, then you must do precautionary with EVERYTHING, or follow a marja. I will guarantee you have no credibility on any scholarship factor nor do you have the capacity to know everything. First of all you live in the west, thus you have a job and school prob, so your time per day shortens by 12 hours at the very least. How are you going to tell me, you know or have derived all rulings in such a time, plus the amount of years to your age. THERE IS NO WAY. Stop fooling yourself and committing bid'ha. You have no authority to be making such conclusions. With due respect, your knowledge compared to Sistani's is not even a piece of his hair. He has spent his life studying islam.

 

No one "imitates" marjas buddy. The marja is just the means to derive our rulings, in the most correct and proper way.  Thanks for the hadith, I dont think muslims worship our scholars or marjas o_O. Nothing you have brought proves or disproves anything. I dont need to bring anything, its common sense. Those of us who follow marjas understand that by them issuing fatwas, they are held responsible not us, if it was wrong. If you are going to go all your life making up what is sunnah and playing the guess game, then be sure, Allah WONT forgive you for acting so ignorant. Thus your actions are void. For those who do not want to follow a marja, then there is only one way, that is do everything precautionary, meaning if you are not sure, dont do it. Your life will become 9999x hard.

 

"Allah will not accept deeds that were preformed without comprehension" - Imam Sadiq A.S (KAfi V1 pg35 tehran)

 

"If you do not know then ask the learned ones (Ahluz Zikr)" Quran 16:43

 

Please check this out, for all those who are opposed to Taqlid or want proof for it. Its  called Taqlid and Ijtihad by Ayatollah Syed Ibn-e-Hasan Najafi:

 

Please start from the beginning but if you are looking for hadiths that prove taqlid check pg: 25 and go down :)

 

http://www.ziyaraat.net/books/TaqleedAurIjtehadEnglish.pdf

 

(wasalam)

Edited March 26, 2014 by PureEthics

[Rohani]

Ayatollah sistani (ha) is a great scholar if you want an knowledgeable, accessible to his office, lots of English, in depth scholar. Another one who seems he has alot of English material is makrem shirazi(ha) I have not looked into all the top marjas but personally find ayatollah sistani meeting the needs of the west and very knowledgeable and he seems very pious.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Rohani

[robbenmessi1010]

Well, there are SAHIH hadiths from our 12th imam that say it is wajib.... For someone who does his own taqlid you should be aware of all hadith collections :dry: Reason dictates if you can never reach the level of having your own ijtihad, then you must do precautionary with EVERYTHING, or follow a marja. I will guarantee you have no credibility on any scholarship factor nor do you have the capacity to know everything. First of all you live in the west, thus you have a job and school prob, so your time per day shortens by 12 hours at the very least. How are you going to tell me, you know or have derived all rulings in such a time, plus the amount of years to your age. THERE IS NO WAY. Stop fooling yourself and committing bid'ha. You have no authority to be making such conclusions. With due respect, your knowledge compared to Sistani's is not even a piece of his hair. He has spent his life studying islam.

 

No one "imitates" marjas buddy. The marja is just the means to derive our rulings, in the most correct and proper way.  Thanks for the hadith, I dont think muslims worship our scholars or marjas o_O. Nothing you have brought proves or disproves anything. I dont need to bring anything, its common sense. Those of us who follow marjas understand that by them issuing fatwas, they are held responsible not us, if it was wrong. If you are going to go all your life making up what is sunnah and playing the guess game, then be sure, Allah WONT forgive you for acting so ignorant. Thus your actions are void. For those who do not want to follow a marja, then there is only one way, that is do everything precautionary, meaning if you are not sure, dont do it. Your life will become 9999x hard.

 

"Allah will not accept deeds that were preformed without comprehension" - Imam Sadiq A.S (KAfi V1 pg35 tehran)

 

"If you do not know then ask the learned ones (Ahluz Zikr)" Quran 16:43

 

Please check this out, for all those who are opposed to Taqlid or want proof for it. Its the fourth book down called Taqlid and Ijtihad by Ayatollah Syed Ibn-e-Hasan Najfi:

 

Please start from the beginning but if you are looking for hadiths that prove taqlid check pg: 25 and go down :)

 

http://www.ziyaraat.net/findbook.asp?srchwhat=All&LibroID=1259&AgregarVista=Si&page=1&Archivo=TaqleedAurIjtehadEnglish.pdf&escritor=All&tema=Taqleed&idioma=All&orderby=titulo

 

(wasalam)

-What I first want to comment on is the hadith you shared by Imam al-Sadiq(as). It says Allah will not accept deeds done without comprehension. If you think of this deeply, this could be fitted to also include those who do taqleed, since they are blindly following scholars' rulings without looking for proof or asking for any evidence. This is what I would consider baatil, regardless of whether or not the scholar knows more or not, he could be lying in his fatwas. Most, if not all, of scholars today give no evidence for their fatwas. This is blind-following, and is labelled shirk in the Quran. 

 

-Could you please find me the SAHIH hadiths by our 12 imam which say this?

 

-It is wajib upon everyone to learn more and more about their religion. They don't need to reach mujtahid to know facts. The religion is complete, and is in no need for straightening it. All we need is Quran and Ahlulbayt. No more. 

 

-You said no one imitates scholars. Umm....buddy, maybe you don't know what ''taqleed'' in arabic means. It literally means imitating. If we do taqleed of a scholar, then we're imitating him in his actions by his fatwas, without asking for evidence or proof, since he knows more than us. Like I mentioned many times earlier...Haram. 

 

-Sure. My knowledge is not equal to Sistani's hair. I agree, but like I said before, taqleed is haram, unless he is a ma'soom of course.

 

-You mentioned the ayah of Quran ''Ask the ahlul Zhikr''....

Ok, we must now ask, who are ahlul zhikr? Well, let's see what ahlul bayt themselves say about this:

 

روى الميرزا النوري وكذلك السيد البروجردي عن علي بن الحسين ، ومحمد بن علي (عليهم السلام) : ((وعليكم بطاعة من لا تعذرون في ترك طاعته - طاعتنا أهل البيت - فقد قرن الله طاعتنا بطاعته وطاعة رسوله ، ونظم ذلك في آية من كتابه ، منا من الله علينا وعليكم ، فأوجب طاعته وطاعة رسوله وطاعة ولاة الأمر من آل رسوله ، وأمركم أن تسألوا أهل الذكر ، ونحن والله أهل الذكر ، لا يدعي ذلك غيرنا الا كاذب ، تصديق ذلك في قوله تعالى : * ( قد أنزل الله إليكم ذكرا رسولا يتلو عليكم آيات الله مبينات ليخرج الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات من الظلمات إلى النور ) * ثم قال : * ( فاسألوا أهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون ) * فنحن أهل الذكر ، فاقبلوا أمرنا ، وانتهوا إلى نهينا ، فإنا نحن الأبواب التي أمرتم أن تأتوا البيوت منها ، فنحن والله أبواب تلك البيوت ، ليس ذلك لغيرنا ، ولا يقوله أحد سوانا ) مستدرك الوسائل - الميرزا النوري - ج 17 - ص 283 – 284 ـ جامع أحاديث الشيعة - السيد البروجردي - ج 1 - ص 178

 

This is what Sayyed al-Khoei said about this verse:

((الصحيح إن الآية المباركة لا يمكن الاستدلال بها على جواز التقليد وذلك لأن موردها ينافي القبول التعبدي .... فلا مجال للاستدلال بها على قبول فتوى الفقيه تعبداً من دون أن يحصل منها علم بالمسألة...)) السيد الخوئي ـ كتاب الاجتهاد والتقليد ص90.

 

I'm hoping I'm in no need for translation. Tell me if you don't know arabic, or try using google to get the idea.

It's quite clear, that Ahlul Zhikr are Alee Muhammad(as) and not scholars. According to the imam, anyone who says he is ahlul zhikr is a liar. Sayyed al-Khoei's commentary on this aya is also enough for us. 

 

-What I have brought does prove something. Allah calls the christians and jews mushrikeen for following their scholars blindly, why wouldn't the same be applicable to us? Allah declares this the same as worshipping. Please open your eyes a little and smell the fresh air. The fact is, when you see people in najaf hanging pictures of Sistani ALL OVER the city, the only thing that comes to my mind is shirk. Sorry if I seem to be speaking a bit like a Salafi, haha, but I'm just saying truth.

 

-Thanks for sharing the link, I'll try to remember to read it soon.

 

Wassalam.  

[Ethics]

-What I first want to comment on is the hadith you shared by Imam al-Sadiq(as). It says Allah will not accept deeds done without comprehension. If you think of this deeply, this could be fitted to also include those who do taqleed, since they are blindly following scholars' rulings without looking for proof or asking for any evidence. This is what I would consider baatil, regardless of whether or not the scholar knows more or not, he could be lying in his fatwas. Most, if not all, of scholars today give no evidence for their fatwas. This is blind-following, and is labelled shirk in the Quran. 

 

-Could you please find me the SAHIH hadiths by our 12 imam which say this?

 

-It is wajib upon everyone to learn more and more about their religion. They don't need to reach mujtahid to know facts. The religion is complete, and is in no need for straightening it. All we need is Quran and Ahlulbayt. No more. 

 

-You said no one imitates scholars. Umm....buddy, maybe you don't know what ''taqleed'' in arabic means. It literally means imitating. If we do taqleed of a scholar, then we're imitating him in his actions by his fatwas, without asking for evidence or proof, since he knows more than us. Like I mentioned many times earlier...Haram. 

 

-Sure. My knowledge is not equal to Sistani's hair. I agree, but like I said before, taqleed is haram, unless he is a ma'soom of course.

 

-You mentioned the ayah of Quran ''Ask the ahlul Zhikr''....

Ok, we must now ask, who are ahlul zhikr? Well, let's see what ahlul bayt themselves say about this:

 

روى الميرزا النوري وكذلك السيد البروجردي عن علي بن الحسين ، ومحمد بن علي (عليهم السلام) : ((وعليكم بطاعة من لا تعذرون في ترك طاعته - طاعتنا أهل البيت - فقد قرن الله طاعتنا بطاعته وطاعة رسوله ، ونظم ذلك في آية من كتابه ، منا من الله علينا وعليكم ، فأوجب طاعته وطاعة رسوله وطاعة ولاة الأمر من آل رسوله ، وأمركم أن تسألوا أهل الذكر ، ونحن والله أهل الذكر ، لا يدعي ذلك غيرنا الا كاذب ، تصديق ذلك في قوله تعالى : * ( قد أنزل الله إليكم ذكرا رسولا يتلو عليكم آيات الله مبينات ليخرج الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات من الظلمات إلى النور ) * ثم قال : * ( فاسألوا أهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون ) * فنحن أهل الذكر ، فاقبلوا أمرنا ، وانتهوا إلى نهينا ، فإنا نحن الأبواب التي أمرتم أن تأتوا البيوت منها ، فنحن والله أبواب تلك البيوت ، ليس ذلك لغيرنا ، ولا يقوله أحد سوانا ) مستدرك الوسائل - الميرزا النوري - ج 17 - ص 283 – 284 ـ جامع أحاديث الشيعة - السيد البروجردي - ج 1 - ص 178

 

This is what Sayyed al-Khoei said about this verse:

((الصحيح إن الآية المباركة لا يمكن الاستدلال بها على جواز التقليد وذلك لأن موردها ينافي القبول التعبدي .... فلا مجال للاستدلال بها على قبول فتوى الفقيه تعبداً من دون أن يحصل منها علم بالمسألة...)) السيد الخوئي ـ كتاب الاجتهاد والتقليد ص90.

 

I'm hoping I'm in no need for translation. Tell me if you don't know arabic, or try using google to get the idea.

It's quite clear, that Ahlul Zhikr are Alee Muhammad(as) and not scholars. According to the imam, anyone who says he is ahlul zhikr is a liar. Sayyed al-Khoei's commentary on this aya is also enough for us. 

 

-What I have brought does prove something. Allah calls the christians and jews mushrikeen for following their scholars blindly, why wouldn't the same be applicable to us? Allah declares this the same as worshipping. Please open your eyes a little and smell the fresh air. The fact is, when you see people in najaf hanging pictures of Sistani ALL OVER the city, the only thing that comes to my mind is shirk. Sorry if I seem to be speaking a bit like a Salafi, haha, but I'm just saying truth.

 

-Thanks for sharing the link, I'll try to remember to read it soon.

 

Wassalam.  

 

Yea you would be correct if it was true that taqlid was haram... You didnt even check my link -__-  it has plenty of hadiths showing taqlid is required and even has examples of "marjas" the imams set forth in their time for people to go and get fatwas from since they learned from our blessed imams...it cannot be possible that marjaat is haram or shirk since even you are using other scholars opinions other than you owns, therefore going with your logic, you committed haram. Its funny, you are getting a tafsir from a scholar. What happened to your own ijtihad? See what I mean, it just becomes a guessing game as to what the interpretation of the verse says let alone the hadith. By the way, once again, we dont imitate the marja since we take his knowledge and derivations. We are following the hadiths, We choose to obey the ruling or not. The marja doesnt make us follow them, nor does the rulling say it must be obeyed..simple.

 

just wow, did you just say having a picture is shirk??? LOOOOOL yea, who am I even trying to explain this to. So if imitation implies worship, they you committed shirk by imitating khoie...

 

Also, there is no way around not reading our scholars book. Its impossible. You have to read their books to understand islamic theology let alone sharia. Therefore, according to your logic, once again your are committing shirk for imitating scholars rather than somehow deriving knowledge out of thin air.

 

Please translate everything for me that is in arabic and make sure to post up the source (page vol book author)

 

By the way, what happens to all the ignorant people who cannot even read or dont have the capacity to learn?  According to your logic, they should just do whatever they deem right. Well, thats clearly bid'ha.. Your way is illogical and senseless.

Edited March 26, 2014 by PureEthics

[mesbah]

Salam.

No, that's not true. I follow the prophet(SAW) and Imams of Ahlul Bayt(as). That's it. No Wilayat al-Faqih here. The first 2 Caliphs rejected Imam Ali's authority. I reject fallible scholars' authority, since they have already made forbidden into halal. It's not the same thing.

Salam alaykum

Rejecting a living authority is the similarity between you and first 2caliphs

The differnce is here:

They didn't accept the infallibility of Imam Ali as.

You do't accept the knowledge of shia scholars.

You think your understanding of Islam and Islamic laws is as authentic and reliable as that of great living shia scholars, and with all due respect, this is very stupid.

Nobody talks about scholars being infallible, they are simply more knowledgeable, therefore their ideas are taken into consideration more seriously, and this is natural and rational, to refer to the most knowledgeable in any feild.

If you think you are a mujtahid by yourself, that's another issue, then people need to know about the extent of your studies, not just knowing arabic and sahih-da'if game that some people repeat without knowing what exactly they are talking about.

التقلید: ان تجعل اعمالک کالقلاده علی عاتق المجتهد الجامع لشرائط الفتوی حتی یکون هو المسئول عن صحتها یوم القیامة

فاذن یصح ان یقال: انا اقلد فلانا، ای اجعل اعمالی کالقلاده علی عاتقه

Edited March 26, 2014 by mesbah

[robbenmessi1010]

Yea you would be correct if it was true that taqlid was haram... You didnt even check my link -__-  it has plenty of hadiths showing taqlid is required and even has examples of "marjas" the imams set forth in their time for people to go and get fatwas from since they learned from our blessed imams...it cannot be possible that marjaat is haram or shirk since even you are using other scholars opinions other than you owns, therefore going with your logic, you committed haram. Its funny, you are getting a tafsir from a scholar. What happened to your own ijtihad? See what I mean, it just becomes a guessing game as to what the interpretation of the verse says let alone the hadith. By the way, once again, we dont imitate the marja since we take his knowledge and derivations. We are following the hadiths, We choose to obey the ruling or not. The marja doesnt make us follow them, nor does the rulling say it must be obeyed..simple.

 

just wow, did you just say having a picture is shirk??? LOOOOOL yea, who am I even trying to explain this to. So if imitation implies worship, they you committed shirk by imitating khoie...

 

Also, there is no way around not reading our scholars book. Its impossible. You have to read their books to understand islamic theology let alone sharia. Therefore, according to your logic, once again your are committing shirk for imitating scholars rather than somehow deriving knowledge out of thin air.

 

Please translate everything for me that is in arabic and make sure to post up the source (page vol book author)

 

By the way, what happens to all the ignorant people who cannot even read or dont have the capacity to learn?  According to your logic, they should just do whatever they deem right. Well, thats clearly bid'ha.. Your way is illogical and senseless.

These ''marjas'' were chosen by the imam himself. These were trustworthy people, like Al Mufid, al Toosi, Al Kulayni, Al-sadooq. These were during the Ghaybah Sughrah, not now.

 

Al Hurr Al Amili(rh) has a chapter in one of his books called ''عدم جواز تقليد غير المعصوم في الاحكام الشرعية'', or ''The non-permissibility of Imitating a non-Ma'sum in the Shar'ee Books''. This is what we find in this chapter:

قال الحر العاملي رحمه الله في الفصول المهمة في أصول الأئمة ـ ج 1 : (( باب 14 - عدم جواز تقليد غير المعصوم في الاحكام الشرعية : 1 - محمد بن يعقوب، عن عدة من اصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن عبد الله بن يحيى، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبى بصير، عن أبى عبد الله (ع) قال:" قلت له: (إتخذوا أحبارهم ورهبانهم أربابا من دون الله) فقال: أما والله ما دعوهم إلى عبادة انفسهم ولو دعوهم ما أجابوهم ولكن أحلوا لهم حراما وحرموا عليهم حلالا فعبدوهم من حيث لا يشعرون.

 

-No. this is not a guessing game. A guessing game is what marja's do to make fatwas, which we do not even dare to question for evidence. The prophet left for us quran and ahlulbayt. That's it. You search for hadiths on this subject, and see if it is permissible or not. And alhamdulillah, we have quick ways to find hadiths nowadays.  Simple as that, and I've done it for over a year now. It's not as easy as having a direct answer for everything in a Istifta2at book by a marja', where you get the scholars' answers, without knowing if these fatwas came from real proof or his own opinion. 

 

I didn't say that pictures were haram my friend. I'm no Wahhabi. All I'm saying is that when you see pictures of Sistani all over the city of Najaf, it seems to me he is respected more than any other thing, including God. I wasn't implying anything else. 

 

I imitated Khoei?? I just quoted you what he said in his book, to show you that even the scholars of taqleed say this verse does not imply anything about taqleed, and it can't be used as evidence for it. 

 

This is the translation of what I said before:

روى الميرزا النوري وكذلك السيد البروجردي عن علي بن الحسين ، ومحمد بن علي (عليهم السلام) : ((وعليكم بطاعة من لا تعذرون في ترك طاعته - طاعتنا أهل البيت - فقد قرن الله طاعتنا بطاعته وطاعة رسوله ، ونظم ذلك في آية من كتابه ، منا من الله علينا وعليكم ، فأوجب طاعته وطاعة رسوله وطاعة ولاة الأمر من آل رسوله ، وأمركم أن تسألوا أهل الذكر ، ونحن والله أهل الذكر ، لا يدعي ذلك غيرنا الا كاذب ، تصديق ذلك في قوله تعالى : * ( قد أنزل الله إليكم ذكرا رسولا يتلو عليكم آيات الله مبينات ليخرج الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات من الظلمات إلى النور ) * ثم قال : * ( فاسألوا أهل الذكر ان كنتم لا تعلمون ) * فنحن أهل الذكر ، فاقبلوا أمرنا ، وانتهوا إلى نهينا ، فإنا نحن الأبواب التي أمرتم أن تأتوا البيوت منها ، فنحن والله أبواب تلك البيوت ، ليس ذلك لغيرنا ، ولا يقوله أحد سوانا ) مستدرك الوسائل - الميرزا النوري - ج 17 - ص 283 – 284 ـ جامع أحاديث الشيعة - السيد البروجردي - ج 1 - ص 178

''Narrated by Mirza al-Nouri, and also by Sayyed Barojardi, that Ali ibn Hussein(as), and Muhammad bin Ali(as) said: It is upon you to obey those whom you have no excuse not to obey-the obedience of us Ahlul Bayt- for Allah has tied our obedience to obedience of him and his messenger. And he has said this in the ayah in his book, from us from Allah, he has obligated obedience to himself, his messenger, and those in charge from his household, and he has ordered you to ask the people of Zhikr, and we, by Allah, are the people of zhikr, nobody claims that besides us except a liar, for Allah says in his book: ''Allah has sent to you a messenger reciting upon you ayat of Allah to take the people who believe and do good from the darkness to the light'', and then he said ''So ask the people of Zhikr if you don't know''. So we are Ahlul Zhikr, so accept our order, and stop at our inhibition, for we are the doors that Allah ordered you to enter the houses with, we are those doors, this is not for anyone but us, and nobody says this but us. ''

 

 

This is what Sayyed al-Khoei said about this verse:

((الصحيح إن الآية المباركة لا يمكن الاستدلال بها على جواز التقليد وذلك لأن موردها ينافي القبول التعبدي .... فلا مجال للاستدلال بها على قبول فتوى الفقيه تعبداً من دون أن يحصل منها علم بالمسألة...)) السيد الخوئي ـ كتاب الاجتهاد والتقليد ص90.

''What's true is that this blessed Ayah can not be used as evidence for the permissibility of Taqleed, and that is because it's source does not imply blind acceptance....So there is no reach for using this as evidence for accepting a Faqih's fatwas without receiving from it knowledge in the matter''

 

According to some people in Iran, disobeying a marja' is shirk. HAhAhahah.....That made me laugh when I read about it. 

[Ethics]

you know I think you are completely mistranslating or misinterpreting these hadiths, and I havnt even checked the grading of these. All of these hadiths refer to obedience to the prophet and imams, and which shia is not obedient? However, I would like to say you didnt address my points nor did you comment on the hadiths in that link I provided that are 100000% sahih and explicitly state taqlid is required. I would copy and paste the hadiths but the file is protected.

 

So I ask you again, what about people who dont have the capacity to learn or are ignorant?

[shiamehdi14]

I think there are only like two people who attempted to answer the OP's questions.

[mesbah]

I think there are only like two people who attempted to answer the OP's questions.

That's because he is highjacking this thread. this thread is basicly for getting help to find a marja', not arguing the issue of taqleed itself.

He must open a new thread on taqleed or refer to that link or other old threads on this matter in sc.

However he's failed to answer my question about the extent of his studies, I think he believes ijtihad means a search engine, and since in modern era we can find the corresponding ahaadith soon by ourselves, we don't need old search engines (maraaji') for finding ahaadith.

Ijtihad was for a time when there wasn't any internet, nowadays and by google and wikipedia everyone can be a good mujtahid for his own, the same way he can be a good doctor, politician, philosopher, ... Basicly we don't need universities and hawzah anymore, google is there!

Edited March 27, 2014 by mesbah

[Ethics]

I think there are only like two people who attempted to answer the OP's questions.

 

The op himself answered his own question :squeez:

 

 

 

BAM! It took me five minutes to put this together. I realize you were talking to robbenmessi1010 but in his defense there is no need for taqlid, personally speaking. Ayatollah Sistani's ruling remains merely Ayatollah Sistani's opinion, and we can each personally chose to follow his judgments or not. I personally don't adhere to the concept of taqlid rigorously; I think of it more as a reference tool and not as a binding authority. The only binding authority for me is the Qur`an. Everything besides the Qur`an I take with a grain of salt.

 

Speak Arabic you say? Well, modern research methods are pretty darn good and a person doesn't need to know Arabic to understand that Allah is all-merciful. That means, if I try my best to succeed in righteousness but fall short Allah will forgive me—Verily! Allah is compassionate and merciful.

 

So before you start flaunting your arrogance with sarcasm about matters of jurisprudence, as if it makes you a better in the eyes of Allah, take a look in the Qur`an and ponder its meaning, without blind imitation. “It is their hearts which are blind, not their ears. (22:46)"

 

[robbenmessi1010]

you know I think you are completely mistranslating or misinterpreting these hadiths, and I havnt even checked the grading of these. All of these hadiths refer to obedience to the prophet and imams, and which shia is not obedient? However, I would like to say you didnt address my points nor did you comment on the hadiths in that link I provided that are 100000% sahih and explicitly state taqlid is required. I would copy and paste the hadiths but the file is protected.

 

What shia isn't obedient?....Well, um..The scholars themselves.  Please go back a little and find the hadith by Imam Ja'afar al-Sadiq which explicitly regards taqleed as haram. It's a perfect and clear tafseer of 9:31. This hadith can be found in Sheikh al-Mufeed's book ''Tasheeh I'itikadat al-Imamiyyah''. I am NOT mistranslating the hadiths. Go ask someone else to translate it for you if you don't trust me. 

 

So, what do we do if we don't do taqleed? Thats a good question. Well, we first need evidence this is part of the relgion. If there is no clea-cut evidence, we can't just add it to our deen.

-With regards to a hadith in that link you sent me about referring to the narrators of his ahadith....We must first ask if this hadith is eligible for a'qeedah. Let's look also at some commentary by Khomeini and Khouei as well. 

ـ السيد الخميني: (وفيه "أي التوقيع" : - بعد ضعف التوقيع سندا - .... ) الاجتهاد والتقليد - السيد الخميني - ص 100

Khomeini says that this signature(of the 12th Imam) has a week chain. 

 

ـ السيد الخوئي : ( أنها قاصرة سندا ودلالة . أما السند فلجهالة ابن عصام ، وكذا إسحاق بن يعقوب ) كتاب الصوم - السيد الخوئي - ج 2 - شرح ص 83

Sayyed Khouei says:'' It is missing(or short) in sanad and proof. And the sanad has jahala(unkown narrators of the hadith) of Ibn Isam, and slo Ishaak Bin Ya'koub.'' 

 

2 top Ayatollahs are calling it Da'eef and weak in it's chain. Obviously not good for usage in our a'qeedah. 

What's more amazing, is that also in the same hadith that's in the book, we find something amazing: 

...وأما الخمس فقد أبيح لشيعتنا وجُعلوا منه في حل إلى أن يظهر أمرنا

Translation: ''And as for Khums, it has been permissible for our Shias, and they have been made free of it till the time of Zuhoor of our affair.''

You're telling me shias obey the Imam? Then why are the Ayatollahs telling us that khums is wajib, when they're directly disobeying the Imam himself. Shame. 

 

-They're also the hadith in the link: ''Any deed done without knowledge and understanding will not be accepted by Allah''...Hmm. I find it strange that you're using this as evidence for taqleed. This hadith is saying YOU must have knowledge of what you're doing, or else your deeds aren't accepted. It doesn't say you must do taqleed of someone. It is saying you must learn....It's really clear, Usulis just like to twist and turn to make the meaning the way they want it. 

 

-As for the hadith: ''Destruction is the fate of those who don't seek answers to problems''....Again, we were ordered in the quran to ask Ahlul Zhikr, and I proved to you earlier that Ahlul Zhikr are Ahlul Bayt, and no one else. 

 

-And all the hadiths in the link about going to those whom the Imam recommended going to: It does not say explicitly that you must do taqleed. This is not proof my friend. It's saying you can benefit from their knowledge of religion. Great. But, is this the same as what 90% of shias do today? 90% of shias are sheep who follow blindly, and you can NOT deny that fact. Can you?

 

Since you trust scholars so much, let me share another thing with you: 

يقول الشيخ السبحاني : (( ... بل يمكن ان يقال انه الدليل الوحيد، بناء العقلاء على رجوع الجاهل على العالم ...)) الشيخ السبحاني ـ تقرير بحث السيد الخميني ج 3 ـ تهذيب الأصول

Translation: ''Sheikh Sabhani says: ...So it is possible to say that the only proof, is logically, the untaught to seek knowledge from the learned.''

 

You want more proof of scholars of end times???.....OK

- Imam Hassan Al-Askari a.s he said to Abi Hashem Al-Ja'afari:  "O Ibn Al-Jaafari O Aba Hashem, there will come a time to the people, their scholars are the most evil creation of Allah on the face of the earth, that is because they lean towards philosophy and aesceticism but they misguide our Shias and the ones who have our Wilaya, so if they reach a position they will not have enough of bribery,and if they betray that is because they worshipped God in fakery, by God they cut the routes for the true believers, and they call forth to the contribution of infidelity". Safeenat Al-Bihaar Wa Madinat Al-Hukm Wal-Athaar v.2 p.57 p.58 v.4

 

- Prince of the believers a.s in Khutba mentions the ending days: "The jurists "fuqaha" will lean towards lying and the scholars will lean towards misguidance" Ilzaam Al-Naaseb Ithbaat Al-Huja Al-Ga'eb v.2 p.195

 

-"When our Qa'em stands he will face from the ignorance of the people worse than what the Prophet of Allah pbuh and his family faced from ignorane of the Era of Jahilya. How can that be? He said: The Prophet of Allah pbuh and his family came with him people that worshipped stones,rocks,rods,and sculpture, and our Qa'em when he stands, the people will face him with the interpretation of the Book of Allah, and will use it as an alibi and he said: By Allah his righteousness shall enter your houses "      Gaibat AlSheikh Al-Numaani p.297

 

-"When Imam Al-Mahdi emerges he will not have any enemies except the scholars,if it wasn't for the sword, the scholars would have issued fatwas to kill him" Bayan Al-A'ema a.s v.3 p.99

 

- Prince of the believer a.s "And he shall avenge from the Fatwa issuers (scholars) in religion from what they don't know about, so Woe unto them and who followed them, was religion missing so that they can erect it? Or was it bent so that they can straighten it? Or did the people ask for what opposes it and agreed to its opposition? Or did it force them to do righteousness so they sinned against it?      Bayan Al-A'ema A.S V.3 P.298

 

Any response?

You also haven't explained to me the verse 9:31. What did they do that was so bad to be called mushrikeen by Allah? Please ANSWER THIS FOR ME!

[Ethics]

What shia isn't obedient?....Well, um..The scholars themselves. Please go back a little and find the hadith by Imam Ja'afar al-Sadiq which explicitly regards taqleed as haram. It's a perfect and clear tafseer of 9:31. This hadith can be found in Sheikh al-Mufeed's book ''Tasheeh I'itikadat al-Imamiyyah''. I am NOT mistranslating the hadiths. Go ask someone else to translate it for you if you don't trust me.

So, what do we do if we don't do taqleed? Thats a good question. Well, we first need evidence this is part of the relgion. If there is no clea-cut evidence, we can't just add it to our deen.

-With regards to a hadith in that link you sent me about referring to the narrators of his ahadith....We must first ask if this hadith is eligible for a'qeedah. Let's look also at some commentary by Khomeini and Khouei as well.

ـ السيد الخميني: (وفيه "أي التوقيع" : - بعد ضعف التوقيع سندا - .... ) الاجتهاد والتقليد - السيد الخميني - ص 100

Khomeini says that this signature(of the 12th Imam) has a week chain.

ـ السيد الخوئي : ( أنها قاصرة سندا ودلالة . أما السند فلجهالة ابن عصام ، وكذا إسحاق بن يعقوب ) كتاب الصوم - السيد الخوئي - ج 2 - شرح ص 83

Sayyed Khouei says:'' It is missing(or short) in sanad and proof. And the sanad has jahala(unkown narrators of the hadith) of Ibn Isam, and slo Ishaak Bin Ya'koub.''

2 top Ayatollahs are calling it Da'eef and weak in it's chain. Obviously not good for usage in our a'qeedah.

What's more amazing, is that also in the same hadith that's in the book, we find something amazing:

...وأما الخمس فقد أبيح لشيعتنا وجُعلوا منه في حل إلى أن يظهر أمرنا

Translation: ''And as for Khums, it has been permissible for our Shias, and they have been made free of it till the time of Zuhoor of our affair.''

You're telling me shias obey the Imam? Then why are the Ayatollahs telling us that khums is wajib, when they're directly disobeying the Imam himself. Shame.

-They're also the hadith in the link: ''Any deed done without knowledge and understanding will not be accepted by Allah''...Hmm. I find it strange that you're using this as evidence for taqleed. This hadith is saying YOU must have knowledge of what you're doing, or else your deeds aren't accepted. It doesn't say you must do taqleed of someone. It is saying you must learn....It's really clear, Usulis just like to twist and turn to make the meaning the way they want it.

-As for the hadith: ''Destruction is the fate of those who don't seek answers to problems''....Again, we were ordered in the quran to ask Ahlul Zhikr, and I proved to you earlier that Ahlul Zhikr are Ahlul Bayt, and no one else.

-And all the hadiths in the link about going to those whom the Imam recommended going to: It does not say explicitly that you must do taqleed. This is not proof my friend. It's saying you can benefit from their knowledge of religion. Great. But, is this the same as what 90% of shias do today? 90% of shias are sheep who follow blindly, and you can NOT deny that fact. Can you?

Since you trust scholars so much, let me share another thing with you:

يقول الشيخ السبحاني : (( ... بل يمكن ان يقال انه الدليل الوحيد، بناء العقلاء على رجوع الجاهل على العالم ...)) الشيخ السبحاني ـ تقرير بحث السيد الخميني ج 3 ـ تهذيب الأصول

Translation: ''Sheikh Sabhani says: ...So it is possible to say that the only proof, is logically, the untaught to seek knowledge from the learned.''

You want more proof of scholars of end times???.....OK

- Imam Hassan Al-Askari a.s he said to Abi Hashem Al-Ja'afari: "O Ibn Al-Jaafari O Aba Hashem, there will come a time to the people, their scholars are the most evil creation of Allah on the face of the earth, that is because they lean towards philosophy and aesceticism but they misguide our Shias and the ones who have our Wilaya, so if they reach a position they will not have enough of bribery,and if they betray that is because they worshipped God in fakery, by God they cut the routes for the true believers, and they call forth to the contribution of infidelity". Safeenat Al-Bihaar Wa Madinat Al-Hukm Wal-Athaar v.2 p.57 p.58 v.4

- Prince of the believers a.s in Khutba mentions the ending days: "The jurists "fuqaha" will lean towards lying and the scholars will lean towards misguidance" Ilzaam Al-Naaseb Ithbaat Al-Huja Al-Ga'eb v.2 p.195

-"When our Qa'em stands he will face from the ignorance of the people worse than what the Prophet of Allah pbuh and his family faced from ignorane of the Era of Jahilya. How can that be? He said: The Prophet of Allah pbuh and his family came with him people that worshipped stones,rocks,rods,and sculpture, and our Qa'em when he stands, the people will face him with the interpretation of the Book of Allah, and will use it as an alibi and he said: By Allah his righteousness shall enter your houses " Gaibat AlSheikh Al-Numaani p.297

-"When Imam Al-Mahdi emerges he will not have any enemies except the scholars,if it wasn't for the sword, the scholars would have issued fatwas to kill him" Bayan Al-A'ema a.s v.3 p.99

- Prince of the believer a.s "And he shall avenge from the Fatwa issuers (scholars) in religion from what they don't know about, so Woe unto them and who followed them, was religion missing so that they can erect it? Or was it bent so that they can straighten it? Or did the people ask for what opposes it and agreed to its opposition? Or did it force them to do righteousness so they sinned against it? Bayan Al-A'ema A.S V.3 P.298

Any response?

You also haven't explained to me the verse 9:31. What did they do that was so bad to be called mushrikeen by Allah? Please ANSWER THIS FOR ME!

Until I get a chance to fully reply to your post please include the sources in English, book, page, author, everything. I have asked you this many times. Also please address which Hadith you are actually referring to from my link so I can actually understand your argument. Other wise it just looks like you are posting random hadiths. Since we are having an argument on whether we should "imitate" scholars according to you, then I deem your argument inconsistent since you keep posting scholarly opinions rather than deriving the answer on your own. I would like for you to post me proof of why the scholar gave such an opinion on the grading or Hadith.

[robbenmessi1010]

Until I get a chance to fully reply to your post please include the sources in English, book, page, author, everything. I have asked you this many times. Also please address which Hadith you are actually referring to from my link so I can actually understand your argument. Other wise it just looks like you are posting random hadiths. Since we are having an argument on whether we should "imitate" scholars according to you, then I deem your argument inconsistent since you keep posting scholarly opinions rather than deriving the answer on your own. I would like for you to post me proof of why the scholar gave such an opinion on the grading or Hadith.

Please take as long as you like.

Before I respond, please remember I asked you to give me an explanation of 9:31. I'm not stopping this until you explain it. You say we don't worship scholars, however Allah says that they(i.e christians and jews) worshipped their scholars. STOP SKIPPING THIS POINT. 

 

 

-The reason I am giving you these scholars' commentaries on these hadiths is so you can see that even the scholars of taqleed are saying that they are not proofs of taqleed. If it were really proof, they would have used this proof. However, what I posted above by Sheikh Sabhani in his book clearly states that the only evidence for taqleed is logic, and not any nass shar3ee and no hadith or ayat.

 

-The hadiths I'm referring to are from page 25 and the next few pages in the link. 

 

-You want me to translate, and give you all these hadiths, with their book, page number, in english, and explain why the scholars said this? Go pick on someone else.  :wacko:

Edited March 27, 2014 by robbenmessi1010

[Ethics]

Please take as long as you like.

Before I respond, please remember I asked you to give me an explanation of 9:31. I'm not stopping this until you explain it. You say we don't worship scholars, however Allah says that they(i.e christians and jews) worshipped their scholars. STOP SKIPPING THIS POINT. 

 

 

-The reason I am giving you these scholars' commentaries on these hadiths is so you can see that even the scholars of taqleed are saying that they are not proofs of taqleed. If it were really proof, they would have used this proof. However, what I posted above by Sheikh Sabhani in his book clearly states that the only evidence for taqleed is logic, and not any nass shar3ee and no hadith or ayat.

 

-The hadiths I'm referring to are from page 25 and the next few pages in the link. 

 

-You want me to translate, and give you all these hadiths, with their book, page number, in english, and explain why the scholars said this? Go pick on someone else.  :wacko:

 

I already told you, I dont need any tafsir, the verse is EXPLICIT. It is very clear the christians took their lords as their scholars and priests. In fact go look at early Christianity and you will see. They gave them attributes of God, as in, the scholars and priests can forgive sins and make people enter heaven.

 

Also exactly, you are proving my point, you are using scholarly opinion to prove to me your point, hence your argument is inconsistent.

 

Of course I want you to translate and give me the ACTUAL source in english.. Your just some random dude, who claims to be his own mujtihad, posting fatwas online (ie hadiths). You make haste conclusions by seeing just a few sahih chain hadiths. Have you looked at all hadiths on this matter? Of course not, hence you are not fully comprehending the matter. I am not going to accept anything until I research them for myself and see whether it contradicts other hadiths and what not. Just because they are sahih doesnt make them incumbent on me, im sure you know rijal. Besides, YOU are telling me to not depend on scholars and go research on my own, when you dont even know the reason behind why the scholar mentioned the grading or interpretation of the hadith, talk about inconsistency. I cannot even respond back if I dont even know what you are responding or referring to. I need to know which scholar opinion is for which hadith. By the way, are you seriously going to tell me that hadith is weak? Did you not check where the hadith is coming from or the footnote on the page? There are even mawatir hadiths found consistently in 18 books(pg 42+ of the link). You cannot just ignore the fact that there were people set up to give answers to people. Yes, they were chosen by the imam, so were the representatives of the imam. DO you not think, the representatives are not worthy enough to disregard that taqlid is haram according to you? After all the imam chose them. I think they have enough knowledge and authority to define taqlid, HENCE the imam chose them. By the way, the link demolishes your arguments, if you ACTUALLY read the whole thing. Your claim that taqlid is no where to be found or that Allah condemned those who follow their scholars are included.

 

For those who are seeking the truth, can read the link I posted for themselves. Written by a top, credible, and actual scholar...

 

http://www.ziyaraat.net/books/TaqleedAurIjtehadEnglish.pdf

Edited March 27, 2014 by PureEthics

[robbenmessi1010]

Sure. When Imam Mahdi emerges, don't forget that the fuqaha' and scholars will be against him. This is what our Imams(as) told us. My advice is just don't follow them blindly in everything.

Wassalam.