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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ali (As) As Aaron (As)

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(Bismillah)

(Salam)

Sahih Bukhari, Book 031, Number 5913:

Amir b Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported (l on the authority of his father that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) addressing 'Ali said: You are in the same position with relation to me as Aaron- (Harun) was in relation to Moses but with (this explicit difference) that there is no prophet after me. Sa'd said: I had an earnest desire to hear it directly from Sa'd, so I met him and narrated to him what (his son) Amir had narrated to me, whereupon he said: Yes, I did hear it. I said: Did you hear it yourself? Thereupon he placed his fingers upon his ears and said: Yes, and if not, let both my ears become deaf.

Now, what was the relation between Aaron (as) and Moses (as) ?

Aaron was Moses brother.

He was his successor.

He was a Prophet after him.

But here our Prophet (pbuh) mentioned his relationship with Ali (as) to b the same as that except that there will no Prophet after him (pbuh)

So, Ali (as) is his BROTHER and his SUCCESSOR.

Them why do you, Sunni brothers, accept this hadeeth yet consider Abu Bakr to be closer to the Prophet & his successor?

Just a side note: Even after the Hijrah at Medina, when making brothers, Abu Bakr was made the brother of Umar & Ali the Prophet's.

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N0nsense, h0w is this any evidence of khilafah of ali (as) after death of prophet.

Prophet har0n (as) died b4 m0osa (as) and was never success0r after him.

Success0r after m0sa (as) was yusha bin n0on, if this hadith is abt khlafah then it would be " you will be to me lyk yusha was to m0osa (as) " .

And no matter what u say, we have our hadiths and ayats of quran showing the caliphate of Imam al sadeeq (as) ..

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plus,

Haro0n (as) was app0inted as a success0r when m0sa (as) asked Allah for him ..

But our prophet never asked for a success0r fr0m G0d almighty .. (n0t in my kn0wledge)

.

Relating har0n with ali, when m0sa went away for 4o days so har0n was app0intd as success0r , so ali should be success0r of our prophet when he also went for miraj 4 the sake of imamat .. :p

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Will get back to u on this

Ok.

plus,

Haro0n (as) was app0inted as a success0r when m0sa (as) asked Allah for him ..

But our prophet never asked for a success0r fr0m G0d almighty .. (n0t in my kn0wledge)

.

Relating har0n with ali, when m0sa went away for 4o days so har0n was app0intd as success0r , so ali should be success0r of our prophet when he also went for miraj 4 the sake of imamat .. :p

The Prophet (pbuh) never asked??? Lol. The Prophet (pbuh) named and appointed his successor, right at the very beginning during the invitation of Asheera (Dawatul Asheera). And right at the very end, during the incident of Ghadeer (Waqeya e Ghadeer). It's all in your beautiful authentic books but you seem to turn a blind eye to them. I wonder why. Prejudice, what else. The Prophet (pbuh) never asked because he didn't need to, since he had more status and authority than Moses (as). The Prophet (pbuh) introduced Ali (as) but this will not be accepted and can not be digested by the prejudice.

N0nsense, h0w is this any evidence of khilafah of ali (as) after death of prophet.

Prophet har0n (as) died b4 m0osa (as) and was never success0r after him.

Success0r after m0sa (as) was yusha bin n0on, if this hadith is abt khlafah then it would be " you will be to me lyk yusha was to m0osa (as) " .

And no matter what u say, we have our hadiths and ayats of quran showing the caliphate of Imam al sadeeq (as) ..

You have Ayaath of Quran showing Khilaafath of Imam Al Sadeeq???? Lol. Really??? Well I would surely like to see these Ayaath. And if these Ayaath do exist, about the Khilaafath of Al Sadeeq then, this surely proves Khilaafath is from Allah and he alone appoints Khalifas. Lol.

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N0nsense, h0w is this any evidence of khilafah of ali (as) after death of prophet.

Prophet har0n (as) died b4 m0osa (as) and was never success0r after him.

Success0r after m0sa (as) was yusha bin n0on, if this hadith is abt khlafah then it would be " you will be to me lyk yusha was to m0osa (as) " .

And no matter what u say, we have our hadiths and ayats of quran showing the caliphate of Imam al sadeeq (as) ..

 

That is a very old statement which is answered by great scholars:

It is right that  Joshua  was Moses's  successor after his death but Quran states clearly that Aron was his khalifah while he was alive:

 قالَ مُوسىَ‏ لِأَخِيهِ هَرُونَ اخْلُفْنىِ فىِ قَوْمِى وَ أَصْلِحْ وَ لَا تَتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ الْمُفْسِدِين

Moses said to Aaron, his brother," Be my successor among my people, and set things right and do not follow the way of the agents of corruption(7:142)

وَ اجْعَل لىّ‏ِ وَزِيرًا مِّنْ أَهْلىِ هارُونَ أَخِى
اشْدُدْ بِهِ أَزْرِی وَ أَشْرِكْهُ فىِ أَمْرِی
Appoint for me a minister from my family;Aaron, my brother;Strengthen my back through him;and make him my associate in my affair(20:29)
(beside that all Moses asked for was accepted by Allah swt :He said," Moses, your request has been granted(20:36)
All the above-quoted verses indicate that Aron was his successor however it it turned out that has died while Moses was alive unlike Ali p.bu.h. who was alive after Prophet so would be his succesor
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The Prophet (pbuh) never asked??? Lol. The Prophet (pbuh) named and

appointed his successor, right at the very beginning during the

invitation of Asheera (Dawatul Asheera). And right at the very end,

during the incident of Ghadeer (Waqeya e Ghadeer). It's all in your

beautiful authentic books but you seem to turn a blind eye to them. I

wonder why. Prejudice, what else. The Prophet (pbuh) never asked because

he didn't need to, since he had more status and authority than Moses

(as). The Prophet (pbuh) introduced Ali (as) but this will not be

accepted and can not be digested by the prejudice..

Then it should be menti0ned in quran that ali is the success0r of prophet like that of other prophets is menti0ned ..

Its n0t the style of quran to talk lyk that and hide anything fr0m ummah .

And this ofcurse, u cnt prove this in ur wh0le lyf + there's n0t even a single hadith "clearly" stating the khlafat or imamat of ali, bro ur sect lacks evidence.. Allah hide the "true islam" fr0m his mankind .

You have Ayaath of Quran showing Khilaafath of Imam Al Sadeeq???? Lol.

Really??? Well I would surely like to see these Ayaath. And if these

Ayaath do exist, about the Khilaafath of Al Sadeeq then, this surely

proves Khilaafath is from Allah and he alone appoints Khalifas.

Lol.

yes . am repeating that again ' . but i h0pe u'l have patience n wil wait for s0metym . am quite busy in these days . i wil have a detaild discussi0n with u . n i cnt c0me onlyn regularly for few days .. but in sha Allah i wil have a discussi0n with u after s0me days .

That is a very old statement which is answered by great scholars:

It is right that Joshua was Moses's successor after his death but

Quran states clearly that Aron was his khalifah while he was alive:

قالَ مُوسىَ‏ لِأَخِيهِ هَرُونَ اخْلُفْنىِ فىِ قَوْمِى وَ

أَصْلِحْ وَ لَا تَتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ الْمُفْسِدِين

Moses said to Aaron, his brother," Be my successor among my people, and

set things right and do not follow the way of the agents of

corruption(7:142)

وَ اجْعَل لىّ‏ِ وَزِيرًا مِّنْ أَهْلىِ هارُونَ

أَخِى

اشْدُدْ بِهِ أَزْرِی وَ أَشْرِكْهُ فىِ

أَمْرِی

Appoint for me a minister from my family;Aaron,

my brother;

Strengthen my back through

him;

and make him my associate in my affair(20:29)

(beside that all Moses asked for was accepted by Allah swt

:He said," Moses, your request has been

granted(20:36)

All the above-quoted verses indicate that Aron was his successor

however it it turned out that has died while Moses was alive unlike Ali

p.bu.h. who was alive after Prophet so would be his

succesor

hmm .. temp0rary success0r u mean ..

0k i'l take ali as a temp0rary success0r .

I wish u could read the detail that y pr0phet said that to ali ..

That is a very old statement which is answered by great scholars:

It is right that Joshua was Moses's successor after his death but

Quran states clearly that Aron was his khalifah while he was alive:

قالَ مُوسىَ‏ لِأَخِيهِ هَرُونَ اخْلُفْنىِ فىِ قَوْمِى وَ

أَصْلِحْ وَ لَا تَتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ الْمُفْسِدِين

Moses said to Aaron, his brother," Be my successor among my people, and

set things right and do not follow the way of the agents of

corruption(7:142)

وَ اجْعَل لىّ‏ِ وَزِيرًا مِّنْ أَهْلىِ هارُونَ

أَخِى

اشْدُدْ بِهِ أَزْرِی وَ أَشْرِكْهُ فىِ

أَمْرِی

Appoint for me a minister from my family;Aaron,

my brother;

Strengthen my back through

him;

and make him my associate in my affair(20:29)

(beside that all Moses asked for was accepted by Allah swt

:He said," Moses, your request has been

granted(20:36)

All the above-quoted verses indicate that Aron was his successor

however it it turned out that has died while Moses was alive unlike Ali

p.bu.h. who was alive after Prophet so would be his

succesor

hmm .. temp0rary success0r u mean ..

0k i'l take ali as a temp0rary success0r .

I wish u could read the detail that y pr0phet said that to ali ..

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Ameen

b4 that u get different c0ncept abt it, i didnt mean the khlafat of al sidiq as what u believe abt ali. its n0t that wh0le imamat , pr0geny n infallible etc thng.

my p0int is that he wasnt a wr0ng man to be a khalifa n that his khlafat is rytly guided .

his khlafat wasnt against c0mmand of Allah ..insha Allah i wil tell that in detail so u'll get the real meaning of my argument .. I'l get back to u . Tc

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hmm .. temp0rary success0r u mean ..

0k i'l take ali as a temp0rary success0r .

quite strange that you did not get the point!!

That is not a temporary successor.If I am your unlimited  lawyer and I suddenly dye would that mean that you made me your temporary lawyer??

There are always obvious conditions not specified in everyone's statements.When you promise one to do something to him you never mention "in case you are alive"

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quite strange that you did not get the point!!

That is not a temporary successor.If I am your unlimited lawyer and I

suddenly dye would that mean that you made me your temporary lawyer??

There are always obvious conditions not specified in everyone's

statements.When you promise one to do something to him you never mention

"in case you are alive"

:) i g0t ur p0int ..

u t0ok that all fr0m shia pen? i've seen h0w the shia pen liarz interpretatd this hadith. They r f0ols, and that was just the game of w0rds i c in that p0st .. Playing with the w0rd "after me" and making it the evidence of khlafah of ali (as) .didnt pr0phet knew that har0n (as) died bef0re m0sa (as)? if pr0phet meant the khlafah then he should've said it in m0re clear w0rds..

Ok here's an0ther hadith of pr0phet :

If there were to be a pr0phet AFTER ME then he w0uld be "UMAR " (as) but there is no any pr0phet "AFTER ME " ..

So h0w should i interprete this hadith?

Who r the pr0phets? They r the khalifahs of Allah subhana tala , they r imams , they r Our masterz .. So d0es this mean that umar (as) has these all qualities hes imam n khalifa after pr0phet EXCEPT that he'l n0t b a PR0PHET ??

Silly example .hunh? :D

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Silsilat Al-Ahadith Al-Sahiha by Allama Al-Albani (A Series of the Authentic Narrations) volume 5 page 263:

[so it is from a Hadith of Ibn Abbas, Al-Talyasi said (H. 2752): Abu Awana narrated to us from Abi Balj from Amr ibn Maymoon from him (i.e. Ibn Abbas) that the Messenger of Allah (saww) said to Ali:] "You are the master of all the believers after me."

And Ahmad extracted it (1 / 330 - 331), and from the transmission of Al-Hakim (3 / 132 - 133) and said: "The chain [is] authentic", and Al-Dhahabi agreed with him, it is like he said.

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:) i g0t ur p0int ..

u t0ok that all fr0m shia pen? i've seen h0w the shia pen liarz interpretatd this hadith. They r f0ols, and that was just the game of w0rds i c in that p0st .. Playing with the w0rd "after me" and making it the evidence of khlafah of ali (as) .didnt pr0phet knew that har0n (as) died bef0re m0sa (as)? if pr0phet meant the khlafah then he should've said it in m0re clear w0rds..

Ok here's an0ther hadith of pr0phet :

If there were to be a pr0phet AFTER ME then he w0uld be "UMAR " (as) but there is no any pr0phet "AFTER ME " ..

So h0w should i interprete this hadith?

Who r the pr0phets? They r the khalifahs of Allah subhana tala , they r imams , they r Our masterz .. So d0es this mean that umar (as) has these all qualities hes imam n khalifa after pr0phet EXCEPT that he'l n0t b a PR0PHET ??

Silly example .hunh? :D

By the way you did not answer my question properly :donno: !!

I did not take it from anyone's pen I just focused on what we have in hadith though.First of all the hadith does not include "AFTER ME" The hadith does not say you are in the same position with me after me as Aron with Moses but you are (currently) in same position except there is no prophet AFTER ME( notice the right place of the phrase AFTER ME)

There for Ali as(even while prophet was alive) had all features Aron used to have except that he was not a prophet.

Secondly would you please interpret the Hadith from your pen ?

Of course he knew he had died however it did not have any influence in his point of statement to be mentioned as I explained in previous post( and you did not answer except that you rushed to judgement )otherwise he would have had to exclude whatever single unrelated difference between Ali as and Aron even the physical one!!

By the way the comparison between this hadith and the one you have quoted was irrelevant since your hadith is not valid to be discussed about   

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Well, mighdad let me make my p0int m0re clear to you ..

U kn0w 0nly yusha had the rank of leader ship, succersor ship while this rank wasnt with har0n.

When har0n didnt have these qualities so h0w d0es that hadith suits to ali as a leader after pr0phet?

No d0ubt, harun was the khalifa of musa during his life. And we kn0w that on occassi0n of tabuk, Ali was app0inted as a khalifah just like harun was . And pr0phet said this to make Ali assure that shouldnt be worried abt what the pe0ple talk about him, his status is indeed just like harun who wasnt left by musa becuz he lacked s0methng rather he was left by musa to guide the pe0ple and act as his deputy (as u can read the w0rds of ali to pr0phet " u left me with children and w0men). And just like that incident didnt made har0n the wasi of musa, similary this incident at tabuk d0esnt make Ali the wasi of pr0phet.

And ur questi0n, The situati0n fr0m that of harun nd musa .. So i dnt kn0w what exctly u r asking ..

(Salam)

Dear brother Azaan, Thanks for sharing that hadeeth. Kindly share the

reference too. I've been looking for that hadeeth and it's reference for

quite some time but couldn't find.

Thanks in advance!

Its qu0ted in many b0oks but i'll only give u the authentic references.

Al tirmidhi, vol 2 pg 293

hadith: (sahih) -(hasan)

Musnad imam ahmed

ch 0.17, 441

hadith: sahih

Mustadak ale al sahihen

vol 2, page 92

hadith: sahih

Musnad vol 4, page 154 _ sahih

Musnad al rawiyani vol 1, page 174 _ sahih

Al majum al kabir vol 17 page 180_

Fadail al sahaba, vol 1 , page 356_ sahi

But that d0esnt mean that umar (as) wil b a pr0phet or hes equal to a pr0phet. Pr0phet just praised him lyk he praised ali (as).

Umar (as) had str0ng nd beautiful physical apperance and he was so firm nd strict in his eman so thats y pr0phet said that to him.

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Well, mighdad let me make my p0int m0re clear to you ..

U kn0w 0nly yusha had the rank of leader ship, succersor ship while this rank wasnt with har0n.

When har0n didnt have these qualities so h0w d0es that hadith suits to ali as a leader after pr0phet?

No d0ubt, harun was the khalifa of musa during his life. And we kn0w that on occassi0n of tabuk, Ali was app0inted as a khalifah just like harun was . And pr0phet said this to make Ali assure that shouldnt be worried abt what the pe0ple talk about him, his status is indeed just like harun who wasnt left by musa becuz he lacked s0methng rather he was left by musa to guide the pe0ple and act as his deputy (as u can read the w0rds of ali to pr0phet " u left me with children and w0men). And just like that incident didnt made har0n the wasi of musa, similary this incident at tabuk d0esnt make Ali the wasi of pr0phet.

And ur questi0n, The situati0n fr0m that of harun nd musa .. So i dnt kn0w what exctly u r asking ..

Well it seems you have heard something and you repeat it inconsiderately.When you accepted that Aron had khilafah of Moses it means you automatically are convinced by Khilafah of Ali as same as Aron's and I have explained previously  that Aron's successorship technically was not temporary ( and that is what you did not continue discussing about )

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~Assuming Harun(a.s) didnt die b4 Musa(a.s),wil Joshua stil maintain the succesorship..it was becos Harun(a.s) dies then the need to choose another one(Joshua) arose..In the case of Ali(a.s) he didnt die and so he has to maintain that very position.

~If Harun(a.s) dies before Musa(a.s),does that meant Ali(a.s) wil die before the prophet(saaw),since He(saaw) knows Harun(a.s) dies before Musa(a.s) when he makes the comparison.

~If the prophet(saaw) cannot leave medina for tabuk(4 some days),without assigning a successor,then tell me how He wil leave the world with out assigning a successor?

~If u can read the history of Islam, match it with the narrations concerning the unshared qualities of Ali(as) & take a look at his relation with the prophet frm his childhood upto the death of the prophet(S)..then u can see him as the only person to rightly succeed the prophet(S).

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Brother Azaan Shah, the Quran speaks about the disputes of the past. Why does the Quran speak about the disputes of the past??? To clarify and clear any misunderstanding and misconception that occured after the books had been revealed and on wards. Now if everything was mentioned in black and white and was crystal clear in the previous books, as you speak, then why the misunderstanding and misconception??? For example can you show me where it has been mentioned in the Bible that, Jesus (as) will go in to occultation??? How long was it after the Bible was revealed that, Jesus (as) went in to occultation??? Not very long was it??? Infact not long at all. You mention about successorship of the other Prophets being in the Quran, prove to me the Successorship of Moses (as) from Zaboor and only then, your arguement is valid about successorship of Muhammad (pbuh) from the Quran. Otherwise your arguement is null and void.

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yes i kn0w that he He was a wizir of musa (as) but he didnt have succesor ship and leader ship .. Jusha (as) had such ranks ..

But the whole point is that there was a successor to Moses (as) and there was someone who governed after him. Leadership wasn't left to the Ummah of Moses (as), did it???

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