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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Chair Pundit

How God Favours Evil And Inconsistency

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Please watch this video with an open heart and mind. It uses irony to illustrate what are rather insightful arguments, so please do not take offence. I have found this video to be the most effective means through which strong arguments can be delivered that I would personally make. Watch the entire video before you respond, it is not too long.

 

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Do you have a response to the arguments posed in the video or is this your way of expressing inability to offer a response?

 

Its my way of expresing that i watched the first 2 minutes and discovered i am in no mood to commit to watching a video that isnt remotely interesting within the 1st 2 minutes. My response was a result of a) impatience b) a lame start to a video. Its possible i may return when my tolerance levels are higher, but that could easily not happen also.  I did apologise at the beginning of my comment to indicate i wasnt wishing to offend.

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Its my way of expressing that i watched the first 2 minutes and discovered i am in no mood to commit to watching a video that isnt remotely interesting within the 1st 2 minutes. My response was a result of a) impatience b) a lame start to a video. Its possible i may return when my tolerance levels are higher, but that could easily not happen also. I did apologise at the beginning of my comment to indicate i wasnt wishing to offend.

Then why bother responding? You can easily skip it to the middle to at least hear the main argument. It's frankly quite annoying that you're derailing this thread. I don't care what mood you're in, or how you feel about the visual presentation of the video. I want you to respond to the content.

This is some disrespectful retardedness. 9 minutes of my life gone on this shyt.

How is it retarded? Don't just drop inane comments like this and walk away. It's not conducive to a "discussion" for goodness' sake.

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Nine minutes?

Can't you just sum it up?

 

Absolute laziness.

 

I'll just break it down so that I can hold the interest of those with a short attention span.

 

God intervenes in petty, everyday matters such as helping a person find their car keys.

However, he will not ever intervene in the case of a rape situation.

As the caricature angel asks God in the video: "If you performed a miracle right now and stopped that rapist, how many people's freewill would be affected?" Of course, it is only the rapist's freewill.

God would rather let the rapist ruin and scar his victim's life, and then torture the rapist in hell forever. How can this be remotely considered rational, let alone merciful? 

 

What if the rapist was nurtured the wrong way, growing up in a rough, abusive household and environment, being bullied for most of his life? Is it not more conducive to rationality and compassion for God to either intervene there and then, or alternatively teach the rapist the perversion of his ways so that he may reform and improve? No. God would rather let a person, who has himself been abused and is angry with life, ruin a woman's life, a woman who has no guarantee for entry to heaven, and then send the angry person to a burning pit rather than a rehabilitation centre. It beggars belief how anyone think this could be fruitful.

 

No one can use the "it's a test" excuse because God has intervened in many different situations in the past, and if it is a test then it is clearly one which hasn't been administered properly, as shown above.

Edited by Chair Pundit

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No offense intended, but that sounds stupid. Do atheists really think like that or is this just some random pothead? I'm in traffic right now will complete reply later inshallah.

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No offense intended, but that sounds stupid. Do atheists really think like that or is this just some random pothead? I'm in traffic right now will complete reply later inshallah.

 

Actually yes, the author of the video gets hundreds of thousands of views on every video he makes. This is what atheists really think.

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Absolute laziness.

Maybe. But keep in mind that this is the Worldwide web. Not everyone has high speed internet, not everyone has access to YouTube. In my case, whenever I'm not at work I'm with my family so I'm unwilling to click a video that I'm not certain is family appropriate.

God intervenes in petty, everyday matters such as helping a person find their car keys.

Really? What brings you to this conclusion?

However, he will not ever intervene in the case of a rape situation.

God will never remove free will from a person. Some things happen that are outside human control, but anything done by a person is done by the choice of a person. Without beings having free will, the universe has no purpose - and everything is a test.

When Cain killed Abel God asked him "where is your brother?" And Cain replied "am I my brother's keeper?" Well, the answer is yes. We are responsible for each other too. If one person is starving, if one person is oppressed, all who know about it and have the power to help but do nothing are guilty.

Free will is a weighty thing. Not only do our choices affect our own lives, but the lives of others too.

The argument that God is evil or doesn't care because people choose to do bad things doesn't work because without the ability to choose evil there would be no point to existence.

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Thanks for summing it up. The main argument sounds just as childish and unimaginative as the beginning then. Do these people ever go out? so often when you hear atheists debate they like to promote a 'scientific' method of ascertaining their realities, yet videos like this seem to suggest their capacities for empirical observation are extremely limited, otherwise a person wouldnt make such ridiculous suppositions.

 

 

God intervenes in petty, everyday matters such as helping a person find their car keys. - o'rly?

 

he will not ever intervene in the case of a rape situation. - o'rly?

 

God would rather let the rapist ruin and scar his victim's life - o'rly?

 

and then torture the rapist in hell forever. - o'rly?

 

 No. God would rather let a person, who has himself been abused and is angry with life, ruin a woman's life, a woman who has no guarantee for entry to heaven, and then send the angry person to a burning pit rather than a rehabilitation centre.  - o'rly?

 

No one can use the "it's a test" excuse because God has intervened in many different situations in the past, and if it is a test then it is clearly one which hasn't been administered properly, as shown above. - o'...rly?

 

How do you know any of those things are true? the scenario itself is a fiction and if you had an actual scenario as an example, in order to make those kinds of statements you would have to be omniscient. You cant possibly know such details of peoples lives, their capacities and all the multitude reasons for their behaviour or the multitude results that will come from it, ever, whether from any of the other people that will ever be touched by it or the resulting consequences on their souls. What kind of 1 dimensional and ignorant existence do you have to live to not recognise the profound complexity of 'suffering' in the human experience, its the very driving force of evolution. Arguments like this often tend to express an utterly biased perspective of human experience also. Forget the every day instances of grace, serendipity and profound learning experiences that push people to become more realised and conscious beings and that includes the raped, mugged, starving, drug addled and dejected. Choice is a very important part of that mechanism and what makes it as profound as it is. No bodies life is a static experience. The greatest mercy is that pain and suffering ends, in this life and the next, and people who have suffered profound pain and hardship are some of the wisest you will ever meet. The majority of suffering is in the mind and, in my experience, when you orientate yourself toward God, towards the spiritual, the sacred, much, and often all, of the mind created suffering can be relieved.

 

SubhanAllah.

Edited by Ruq

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This is the same stupid argument as the "there are starving people in the world, why doesn't Allah feed them?".

 

You want Allah to do all the work for you? What is this stupidity and laziness? You speak of our laziness for not wanting to watch a 9-minute video yet you want Allah to stop every sin in this world. 

 

Humans have a brain, they are supposed to be intellectual, they're supposed to THINK. Even if the rapist grew up in a terrible environment it doesn't mean he stops thinking. It isn't Allah's fault that people give into weakness and turn to the negative side of the world. No matter how much pain you get in life it should make you stronger, not weaker. You know why the abused and bully turn psychotic when they grow up? It is because of what is being taught to them. People are taught to embrace materialism and leave spirituality. People seek for money to buy happiness instead of seeking for happiness alone. 

 

And it is undeniable that atheists are the most materialistic and superficial people there is. You guys have 0% spirituality. All I hear from "atheists" is how Allah is bad, and how those who believe in Allah are ruining the world. I have never seen an atheist talk about the ethics of the prophet (pbuh) or the ahlulbayt (as) because all you guys want to do is bash those who want to believe in a supreme being. This negativity is what's keeping you materialistic and drugs you to stay in this world.

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How do you know any of those things are true? the scenario itself is a fiction and if you had an actual scenario as an example, in order to make those kinds of statements you would have to be omniscient. You cant possibly know such details of peoples lives, their capacities and all the multitude reasons for their behaviour or the multitude results that will come from it, ever, whether from any of the other people that will ever be touched by it or the resulting consequences on their souls.

 

The scenario is rooted in factual observation. I could pick up a legal case, but it would seem reasonable to assume that the scenario is completely plausible, and that it has occurred in the past. It is ignorance of basic psychology to think that some people don't project their own past precedent of bad experiences through counterproductive actions; in this case, rape. It is also rational to assume that not every rape victim is necessarily a candidate for heaven. So I've drawn up a realistic scenario and posed a completely reasonable question; why does God not intervene? What is being lost by intervention in a circumstance like this?

 

Let me just point out an irony here: you acknowledge the complexity of human life, yet you believe a recompense as simplistic as heaven and hell does justice to that inherent complexity.

 

God intervenes in petty, everyday matters such as helping a person find their car keys- o'rly?

 

Are you doubting God can respond to prayers? When religious people thank God for finding a missing possession, are they all delusional and wrong? Because I've personally never seen God respond to the prayer of an amputee. 

 

Choice is a very important part of that mechanism and what makes it as profound as it is. No bodies life is a static experience. The greatest mercy is that pain and suffering ends, in this life and the next, and people who have suffered profound pain and hardship are some of the wisest you will ever meet. The majority of suffering is in the mind and, in my experience, when you orientate yourself toward God, towards the spiritual, the sacred, much, and often all, of the mind created suffering can be relieved. 

 

 

No, you've misunderstood. I'm not saying God has a duty to intervene in every aspect of the human experience, but in cases where there is nothing to be gained by standing idle, for either party involved, freewill can be sacrificed to save the actual freewill which enables God to test his creation. If God could purposefully violate Pharaoh's freedom by closing the split sea on him and his army, he can just as well do the same now. 

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If God could purposefully violate Pharaoh's freedom by closing the split sea on him and his army, he can just as well do the same now.

Seriously? :donno:

So you think God took away the pharaoh's free will by the pharaoh deciding to walk out into the temporarily dry portion of the sea right before the water returned?

By that logic it would be God's fault if I set up a tent at the waterline at low tide, then it floods at high tide.

God never, ever, ever takes away free will.

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The flaw of the argument is that it assumes death is evil in itself. Secondly, the sufferings and painful experiences which exist (like children starving and dying), prove God's mercy because it shows how God is not. It shows what happens when human beings do not have God in their hearts. These sufferings are evil from our moral point of view, but they are nevertheless ontologically good in the sense that it is a necessary way for God to manifest the maximum amount of good (which is the realization of God Himself)!

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

"And when your Nourisher-Sustainer (rabb) said to the angels: “I am about to place Khalifa on earth.” They said: “Will you place therein one who makes disorder therein and sheds blood, while we are steadfast in Your glorification and propagate Your Highness?” (Allah) said: “Certainly I know more, what you do not know.”

This is the Quran's response to the problem of evil. :)

Edited by eThErEaL

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'The scenario is rooted in factual observation' - proved false by -> 'I could pick up a legal case, but it would seem reasonable to assume that the scenario is completely plausible, and that it has occurred in the past. It is ignorance of basic psychology to think that some people don't project their own past precedent of bad experiences through counterproductive actions; in this case, rape. It is also rational to assume that not every rape victim is necessarily a candidate for heaven. So I've drawn up a realistic scenario and posed a completely reasonable question; why does God not intervene? What is being lost by intervention in a circumstance like this?'


The only factual observation you can make is that people are raped and that people experience life events that can trigger responses of callousness, arrogance and cruelty in them. Whats being a rape victim got to do with 'going to heaven'?
why dont you ask what is being gained by not intervening? of course you cant do that, because the entire scenario is a fiction. Find RL scenarios and you have a chance of learning something, if you have an open mind.

 

'Let me just point out an irony here: you acknowledge the complexity of human life, yet you believe a recompense as simplistic as heaven and hell does justice to that inherent complexity.'

I dont assume simplicity (from a human perspective) or anything very much about the realities of heaven and hell. Why would i? im not omniscient.



q: Are you doubting God can respond to prayers?

a: no


q: When religious people thank God for finding a missing possession, are they all delusional and wrong?

a: Thanking God for something doesnt mean that you know that He directly intervened to make you find it or that you can know whether He did or not or the nature of that intervention.

Because I've personally never seen God respond to the prayer of an amputee.

really? i think there are a lot of servicemen and meningitis survivors who have a very different experience.
 

No, you've misunderstood. I'm not saying God has a duty to intervene in every aspect of the human experience, but in cases where there is nothing to be gained by standing idle, for either party involved, freewill can be sacrificed to save the actual freewill which enables God to test his creation. If God could purposefully violate Pharaoh's freedom by closing the split sea on him and his army, he can just as well do the same now.

    
'nothing to be gained by standing idle' - what an utterly absurd statement to make. How can you possibly know that there is passivity involved or that there is nothing to be gained by what ever it is that is happening? the very fact that anything at all is allowed to happen means there is the potential for good in it. Do you think the driving force of all that exists is creative hate? it cant be passivity, else nothing would be created in the first place.

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If God intervened in one thing, we would then expect him to intervene in other things including politics, etc.  A world where God constantly interferes, is significantly different, and free-will including the good of it would be negated to a great extent.

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This is not even a debate. This life is a test, its as simple as that.

If you rape its your doing.

If your are being raped it a test on you and your family or could even be wrath of God.

This life is not the true life but a test. The life of hereafter is the true eternal life. And you will be rewarded and punished according to what you did. And he is the most just.

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A world with free creatures who commit mostly evil but little good is inherently a better world than one in which these creatures have no free will at all or one in which these free creatures do not exist. The reality of this free will does not negate the omnipotence of God because God cannot force someone to freely choose to do good. God cannot do the logically impossible and noone suggests that omnipotence entails being able to do the logically impossible.

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The only factual observation you can make is that people are raped and that people experience life events that can trigger responses of callousness, arrogance and cruelty in them. Whats being a rape victim got to do with 'going to heaven'?

why dont you ask what is being gained by not intervening? of course you cant do that, because the entire scenario is a fiction. Find RL scenarios and you have a chance of learning something, if you have an open mind.

 

Why are you trivializing such an important observation? The negative response triggered by a negative past experience in this scenario would result in the rapist being eternally chastised, and the victim going to hell. I'm assuming for the purpose of this example that the victim is hell bound since, logically, not every victim is destined for heaven. 

But it isn't possible for you to engage with a scenario whose assumed variables are perfectly realistic, because it is obvious to any rational mind that how the situation would be dealt with in a religious framework would be wholly counterproductive.

 

The notion that God intervening in this instance is a violation of freewill is utter tosh. If it is to be assumed that God does respond to some prayers where God has to intervene to either solve or bring about a situation, it follows that God is, de facto, violating some form of freewill. 

Unless you want to say that God doesn't respond to prayers (which contradicts the religion), you have to concede to the fact that God is inconsistent, since he can miraculously save someone from being hit by a stolen car but he can't save someone from being raped.

 

 

I dont assume simplicity (from a human perspective) or anything very much about the realities of heaven and hell. Why would i? im not omniscient.

 

Heaven is bliss and Hell is torment. It's not really very complex. Rather, very either/or. You do not have to be omniscient to see that the simplistic dual recompense doesn't accurately encapsulate the true complexity of the human experience. It treats the human life as if it is black and white, which means that the idea of two separate, distinctive states is far removed from reality.

 

 

a: Thanking God for something doesnt mean that you know that He directly intervened to make you find it or that you can know whether He did or not or the nature of that intervention.

 

That's not the point. Does God ever intervene, even in negligible circumstances? Yes or no? Or is it that everyone who claims to have been aided by God have only imagined it?

    

 

'nothing to be gained by standing idle' - what an utterly absurd statement to make. How can you possibly know that there is passivity involved or that there is nothing to be gained by what ever it is that is happening? the very fact that anything at all is allowed to happen means there is the potential for good in it. Do you think the driving force of all that exists is creative hate? it cant be passivity, else nothing would be created in the first place.

 

 

What is the "potential good" in allowing a naturally disturbed person to create a rape victim? Please, tell me.

 

 

 

A world with free creatures who commit mostly evil but little good is inherently a better world than one in which these creatures have no free will at all or one in which these free creatures do not exist. The reality of this free will does not negate the omnipotence of God because God cannot force someone to freely choose to do good. God cannot do the logically impossible and noone suggests that omnipotence entails being able to do the logically impossible.

 

If it is assumed that the historical level of, say, natural evil and general discomfort is necessary to sufficiently challenge humans to become perfect mortals, then the exceptionally safe and comfortable conditions associated with modern consumer industrial civilisation is a violation of the will of the supreme being to "test."

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Why are you selectively responding instead of being thorough?

 

How do you mean? On the contrary, I think my interlocutors are cherry picking my argument rather than understanding it in its full context. What exactly am I ignoring? I'm only quoting responses worthy of responding to.

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If it is assumed that the historical level of, say, natural evil and general discomfort is necessary to sufficiently challenge humans to become perfect mortals, then the exceptionally safe and comfortable conditions associated with modern consumer industrial civilisation is a violation of the will of the supreme being to "test."

 

No, how about we not assume such a thing. Certainly human beings in past times have not been perfectly moral creatures but God has ordained the course of human history in a way such that the actual world is the best possible world compatible with human free will. The burden of proof is now on the atheists to show that the coexistence of an all good God and the existence of evil is logically impossible since an all good God would have chosen the best possible world to create free creatures in. Here the atheist cannot simply say that it is not the best possible world because there is unnecessary suffering in the world but here too he is burdening himself with quite the heavy burden since he would have to show that God does not have morally sufficient reasons for permitting what seems to mere mortals to be unnecessary suffering.

Edited by godzapostle

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(bismillah)

  (salam)

 

This world is not a paradise. Allah(swt) lets free will reign as a test. If there were no murders, rapes, wars, famine, suffering or anything bad then what would be the test? If one girl was raped and it was common knowledge yet few cared to bring about justice or raise awareness, that would have been a test. There is also hidden blessings in everything as well maybe even in cases of rape. Sometimes it can result in the birth of a child, or it can affect the victim positively somewhere down the line. In another case, if there was a suicide bomber and a man sacrificed himself to save the lives of many other people, would that not be considered God being merciful?

 

(wasalam)

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I suppose, since Allah is the source of all good, but we couldn't say Allah is all-loving like the Christian God, because Allah loves not the unbelievers.

 

 

بِسْــــــــــــــــــمِ اﷲِالرَّحْمَنِ اارَّحِيم

 

I pray this finds you in good health.

 

 

We must not forgot that one of His Names is: al-Wudood (the most-loving): and He is the Most-Forgiving, the Most-Loving [85:14].

 

God has certainly illustrated in the Koran, and in previous Scripture, that His love is conditional on ones obedience to Him (essentially, Divine Law), for this is the way that leads us to attain salvation. We cannot attain salvation on our own merit, as the noble Prophet reportedly proclaimed, it is only through God's Grace and Mercy which we can attain such a gift. Of course, we are able to receive this by following His commandments (which would bring His love, approval) and our salvation.

 

Christian's champion the notion that God is all-Loving to even the sinners but there are several instances in the Old Testament which illustrate the opposite (e.g., Pslams 5:4-6; Leviticus 20:23). 

 

I would suggest that God's mercy and love are two distinct things, and that the former is reserved for the Believers who obey Him whereas the latter is given freely to all in this life. This is attested too by the Koran itself: ... My mercy embraces all things, and I shall prescribe it for those who are Godwary and pay the alms, and those who indeed believe in Our signs. [7:156]. God's Rahma embraces everything in the known universe but He also chooses to prescribe it to those who are conscious of and obey Him. Additionally, there are several instances where God recounts Him giving the unfaithful a taste of His Mercy, only for them to return to ingratitude and polytheism afterwards (one example is the famous incident of the Ship which is narrated throughout the Koran).

 
 

Ws.

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The negative response triggered by a negative past experience in this scenario would result in the rapist being eternally chastised, and the victim going to hell.I'm assuming for the purpose of this example that the victim is hell bound since, logically, not every victim is destined for heaven.


So you have a little fantasy scenario with two fictional, one dimensional people of whom we know only one thing each: 1 is a rapist who has done something that has put him in hell forever according to your judgement and the 2nd is a woman who has been raped and has also done something to put her in hell forever according to your judgement. What is the point?


 
 

The notion that God intervening in this instance is a violation of freewill is utter tosh. If it is to be assumed that God does respond to some prayers where God has to intervene to either solve or bring about a situation, it follows that God is, de facto, violating some form of freewill.


I havent said anything about violating free will(?)



Unless you want to say that God doesn't respond to prayers (which contradicts the religion), you have to concede to the fact that God is inconsistent, since he can miraculously save someone from being hit by a stolen car but he can't save someone from being raped.



Of course He can stop someone being raped, but unless you hold the bizarre notion that He should do that, why on earth would you expect it?


 
Heaven is bliss and Hell is torment. It's not really very complex. Rather, very either/or. You do not have to be omniscient to see that the simplistic dual recompense doesn't accurately encapsulate the true complexity of the human experience. It treats the human life as if it is black and white, which means that the idea of two separate, distinctive states is far removed from reality.



I dont assume simplicity about the ways in which peoples realities translate into an afterlife experience, because that would be ridiculous; to my knowledge i havent lived in an afterlife experience and if i have i have no conscious memory of it and no, i certainly dont assume that heaven and hell cannot both be experienced in the afterlife by the same soul. Heaven and hell in this world can be experienced as quickly as you can switch a thought, so why would i assume so much about the afterlife.



That's not the point. Does God ever intervene, even in negligible circumstances? Yes or no? Or is it that everyone who claims to have been aided by God have only imagined it?




Obviously no one can know the ways in which they are aided by God; they cant fully understand those mechanisms and to what extent they themselves are involved in those mechanisms or 'separate' consciousness is. In my experience people practice thankfulness as a way of life, with the knowledge that they are largely ignorant of the mechanisms of grace.


What is the "potential good" in allowing a naturally disturbed person to create a rape victim? Please, tell me.




It is astonishing to me that people can ask such questions. When you have gone through extremely trying circumstances and/or know someone else who has and you observe the fullness of those experiences (not the stories of those experiences, but the reality as best you can ascertain it with honest and thorough enquiry) you cannot ignore that the greatest and most immense potential for spiritual development/self realisation and God consciousness exists in those most challenging of circumstances. When people live relatively unchallenged, generally speaking, they have a greater potential for egotism, arrogance and spiritual stagnation. When we are spoilt with ease we become more immersed in the material world. When we have the gift of challenge we face the most important choices we will ever make - we can immerse ourselves more in the world and in the ego and run away from the challenge or face it head on and turn towards God - greater self realisation and eventual wisdom and balance.
 
 

 

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Ruq, this ChairPundit won't be pleased until Allah comes down and intervenes in every crime that takes place and removes volcanoes, earthquakes, floods, meteors, cosmic radiation, and demanding bosses from the earth. 

 

Then Allah needs to update his religion to comport with secular laissez faire morality. And eliminate poverty. Etc.

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I think, Chair Pundit, that you shall fare successfully on a Sunni forum or somewhere where people have no grasp and contemplation of God's ways and may fall into your trap of ignorance.

 

Of course, the people who suffered/suffer THE most in this world are the good people. From prophets, saints, right down to all good souls. While the most evil/elite own the world and most of the bounties it has to offer.

 

Think moar bro.~

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(bismillah)

 

Perhaps our friend Chair pundit (on one side) and the rest of us (on the other side) should simply agree to disagree, as the niveau of this discussion is rapidly deteriorating.

 

He wants to blame God (swt) for all the evil in the world, for answering prayers selectively and letting innocent individuals lives being destroyed by bad experiences.

 

We the believers defend the "free will" theory and shift the blame to the actual perpetrators, who choose to act the way they act each time they commit a wrongful deed.

 

I guess we simply live in different worlds, that shall never be reconciled...

 

(wasalam) . 

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