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solitair

Trinity

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Some Christians believe in trinity, and to be honest this is  a very confusing topic for me.

 

One interpretation from Christians seem to be that God is 3, and one of them is Jesus. In other words Jesus is God. God is also two others.

 

So they say Jesus was born 2 thousand years ago. But that is not possible, because he is God, he have existed always because he is God ?

 

So what is the explanation here ? Jesus was born - or not ? If it is god, than God must have entered a body of a baby, without there being a regular human soul in there already. So at one point, God was pissing on himself... ?

 

I mean no disrespect, but what is the purpose for God to become a baby ? To me Jesus was clearly a human baby, and this entire God was Jesus, just seems very strange.

 

And how is it possible that god was born 2 thousand years ago, at the same time as he has existed always ?

 

I find it borderline to degrading - when someone is telling us that God at some point was running around like a toddler baby, unable to walk, etc... he is the great creator of all, why would he want to do this ? They say Jesus did many things for the sake of man, like sacrifice himself to their sins. So clearly Jesus had some purpose to all that he did. So why did god not just come down as at least a young adult, and just skip the being a baby part ? What on earth makes someone believe that God at one time, found a reason to crawl around on the floor with a dirty diaper in the house of Joseph and Mary ?

Edited by solitair

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Some Christians believe in trinity, and to be honest this is  a very confusing topic for me.

Are you thinking about becoming a Christian?

 

One interpretation from Christians seem to be that God is 3, and one of them is Jesus. In other words Jesus is God. God is also two others.

There is the Son, the Father, and the Spirit. The Son eternally and ontologically proceeds from the Father and the relationship between the the Father and the Son is the Spirit. The Son is like the way in which God becomes manifest to man in his heart (it is God's Immanence). The Father is God as such (Transcendent). The Spirit is simply the relation between these two poles. The Trinity is a about the distinctions one can make with regards to the ontological levels of God's relationship to the world. The Trinity is with respect the relationship between God and creation. The Trinity is NOT about God in Himself.

 

So they say Jesus was born 2 thousand years ago. But that is not possible, because he is God, he have existed always because he is God ?

Jesus is the historical manifestation of the Eternal Son of the Father.

 

This should answer all your questions.

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I'm not understanding this. English is not my language. Can you try to word it in a simpler way ? By the way, what religion/sect is your explanation based on ?

St.Thomas Aquinas and Miester Eckhart

To understand what I wrote within an Islamic context.... The Son is the Muhammdan Light or Muhammadan Reality (Noor Muhammadiyya or Haqiqatul Muhammadiyya). Th Father is God Himself. And the Spirit is the relationship (of Love) between God Himself and the Muhammadan Reality.

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This trinity thing, maybe i don't get it at all - but if i do, and there are 3 - then how is that possible when Jesus is not eternal ??

 

 

hmmm  Proverbs 8:22-23 (Common english version)

 
22The Lord created me at the beginning of his way,before his deeds long in the past.23I was formed in ancient times,at the beginning, before the earth was.
 
 
To make this clear - I also included another translation:
 

Proverbs 8:22-25 ( Contemporary English version )

 

22 From the beginning,I was with the Lord.I was there before he began 23 to create the earth. At the very first, the Lord gave life to me. 24 When I was born, there were no oceans or springs of water. 25 My birth was before mountains were formed or hills were put in place.

 

 

From this i read that Jesus was born before God made Adam and Eve.

He was then born again, as the baby of Mary.

 

For me the question is what is Jesus then ? Is he a human ? a God or what ? If he was born before Adam and Adam was the first man,... then what is Jesus ? There is only one God, so Jesus must then be an angel or what ?

 

Christianity give me such an enormous headache... no disrespect intended, it is just so much information that seems to go in all kinds of directions.

Edited by solitair

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Hi Solitair,

Welcome to the forum.

Trinity is a much disputed subject and I can understand your confusion. However, we are not all Trinitarians but we believe what the Scriptures say, --- that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary with no earthly father, because God ordained it.

The first account is in Luke, and I will give you some verses which you may already have read if you have been studying the subject. --- Luke 1:

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

--- (Notice it says that Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God, --- and He WAS the Son of God, because He had no earthly father (Joseph was His foster Father). --- Jesus is never CALLED God in the NT nor did He ever call Himself God, but He usually referred to Himself as the Son of Man (identifying Himself with mankind through His human mother Mary.)

Now let’s look at the comparison in the Quran in Surah 19:

19 He (the angel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

It is recorded also in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

So these accounts speak of natural childbirth, and by nature, the child, Jesus, would have the DNA of Mary, --- so He couldn’t have preceded Mary, His mother, could He?

However, verse 45 says, “God gives glad tidings of a Word from Him (God).”

When Word is capitalized in the Quran it speaks of the ‘Word (Logos), the creative power of God,’ who was with God from the beginning and it can mean the action of, “Be” and it is.

So Jesus was a special Being, --- a body of flesh and blood, but ‘indwelt’ by the Word which God sent down from heaven.

--- God was still in heaven when Jesus was on earth, --- and since the Word, and the Holy Spirit could not be seen by mankind, Jesus was the body in which the Word from heaven dwelt. --- So the body was human, but the Word that ‘indwelt’ the body, was of Divinity, --- So Jesus was the Manifestation, or the Representative of God on earth.

--- And it said, “His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.” --- Christ means Messiah, --- and Jesus means Savior.

Concerning Proverbs 8, read it again and you will find that it is talking about WISDOM being with God from the beginning. ---8:

12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way

And the perverse mouth I hate.

14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength.

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;

--- This is a kind of colorful poetic language in this, “Praise of Wisdom.”

(There is a lot more, but enough for now)

Placid

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Solitarr no not SOME, 99% of Christians believe in the Trinity.

 

It is the cornerstone of the Christian Faith.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians and DO NOT believe in the Trinity.

 

This leaves Placid and the Unitarians and perhaps 7th Day Adventists.

Edited by shreek

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Solitarr no not SOME, 99% of Christians believe in the Trinity.

 

It is the cornerstone of the Christian Faith.

 

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians and DO NOT believe in the Trinity.

 

This leaves Placid and the Unitarians and perhaps 7th Day Adventists.

 

I was not aware that Jehova Witneses and Mormons are not Christians, I thought they were.  Are you also saying that 7th day adventist are not ? I don't really know that much about them, except that they have some strict rules about food.

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I was not aware that Jehova Witneses and Mormons are not Christians, I thought they were.  Are you also saying that 7th day adventist are not ? I don't really know that much about them, except that they have some strict rules about food.

Leaves Ibn Placid in there somewhere too. I had friends were J/W. they weren't that far off. Unitarians believe they can pray to dead people for help. Thankfully God is merciful and will save some of them too. Mormons don't drink coffee...no use them talkin to me.

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I was not aware that Jehova Witneses and Mormons are not Christians, I thought they were.  Are you also saying that 7th day adventist are not ? I don't really know that much about them, except that they have some strict rules about food.

No Mormons and JWs are not considered Christians by mainstream Christianity, in fact they are cults.

7th day Adventists believe their founder, a woman named Ellen White was a Prophet who received revelations from God.

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KJV John 20:17

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus (peace and Allaah's blessings be upon him) was the only Son of God, then why does the NT say my Father, and your Father. The word son should be used in a general senses i.e. he was close to God or was a righteous messenger.

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KJV John 20:17

 

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Jesus (peace and Allaah's blessings be upon him) was the only Son of God, then why does the NT say my Father, and your Father. The word son should be used in a general senses i.e. he was close to God or was a righteous messenger.

Jesus always called God His father. When Jesus said "You should pray like this..." The first words were "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." Jesus meant God is our Father.

 

John 1:12 says; But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name

 

People get so het up on the idea that Jesus was the actual and only son of God, yet in the OT many were called sons of God.

This "son of God" thing is sooooooo over-rated.

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Leaves Ibn Placid in there somewhere too. 

 

If you are truly interested, you could ask the moderators to change your name to 'ibn Placid'.

And have a picture of yours with a long robe and Arab head-dress shown in your avatar.

 

Something like one of the princes of the fabled land of 1001 nights.

  Hopefully a prince, without a harem, of course, 

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JWs have a few beliefs the rest of us don't. Of course, (as all religions do) they consider themselves the only ones who will be saved. They believe and follow Jesus and consider preaching as their main duty on earth. They see no reason to become successful in a world headed for doom. 1914 was a big year for them as it somehow changed something, (slips my mind at the moment) I consider them as Christians in the fact that they accept Jesus as saviour as all protestant churches do, but do not believe in a trinity. Jesus was the first creation. Although they see Him as divine in nature, they do not see Him as God.

 

Much like the Catholic church, they have a headquarters that decides their beliefs. These beliefs have changed from time to time. They also believe that the soul of a person is in their blood, therefore blood transfusions are out.

 

If anybody knows more than I do, can fill in, remind me, or correct me. It's only my experience (condensed), 

I went to one of their home prayer groups, and other than the constant use of the word JEHOVAH, I thought it was good. Just when I'm warm and fuzzy the host finishes in prayer. Great words but ended with "We ask it all in Jesus name Amen Hey common I'll show you my bike!"  My buddy was up and half way to the garage before I had my eyes open. The Hostess pointed me in the direction of...Immediately on entrance I was offered a beer and a smoke. I am so not used to ending my prayers with a leap in the air, and a total 180.

 

The one thing I had trouble with was the difference in doctrines, and I never respected a word of their Bible translation because of John 1:1. and a little a.

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Their translation says; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God.

 

When they come to your door, you have two choices. You can listen and learn something, or you can show them in their book where it says they have two Gods...(Can you see the irony in that?). They don't believe in trinity but more than that what makes them a "sect" is the "headquarters" is in NY,USA. Like every other Religious "Headquarters" they have a few things they could fix.

 

It was in retrospect that I realized that little "a" was actually just a little bit closer to truth than all versions since.  

Turns out the Greek it was translated from has a little "ς"

Here's what finding a Greek translator can do to you.

 

εν    αρχη               ην    ο         λογος          και  ο  λογος    ην      προς                 τον     θεον      και    θεος    ην    ο     λογος

 

In  the beginning   was  the   Lagos(Word)  and the Lagos  was   near to (with)    this     "God"   and    "God"  was  this  Lagos.

 

Note the difference in θεον  (as God) and  θεος. (of God?)

 

Next verse goes on to say "The same was in the beginning with "God", Greek word used... θεον.

 

So even the Greek does not explicitly explain it, yet differentiates between God and Lagos. Lagos being "First born of every creature"  Of course Christians would believe that to be Jesus, Muslims would believe that mean Muhammad.

 

Lagos in Hebrew...

 

I'll have to get back to you, real life calls.

 

LOL@ PeaceLoving.

Edited by Son of Placid

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No Mormons and JWs are not considered Christians by mainstream Christianity, in fact they are cults.

 

Greetings shreek,

I had always considered them to be Christians.

CLynn

Edited by CLynn

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Jehovas Witnesses consider themself Christians, but as Shreek say, most Christians do not quite agree on this. JW on the other hand consider themself to be the only true Christians. Mormons believe in the Bible, but they also have a holy Book revealed to their Prophet Smith by the angel Moroni 200 years ago.

As for trinity, it is a established christian dogma. The definition varies a bit between the churces. Personally I belong to the christian minority that disagrees with trinity, but I could of course be wrong. However I am sure God does not expect us to understand the relation between Him, Jesus and the Holy Spirit (that is really difficult to imagine) so I think it is OK if I have my own personal concept.

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Jesus always called God His father. When Jesus said "You should pray like this..." The first words were "Our Father, who art in Heaven..." Jesus meant God is our Father.

 

John 1:12 says; But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name

 

People get so het up on the idea that Jesus was the actual and only son of God, yet in the OT many were called sons of God.

This "son of God" thing is sooooooo over-rated.

Well bro here's the rub. Having been raised as a Christian I know what CHRISTIANS mean when they use the phrase "son of God". I also know what it sounds like to Muslims. In Christianity this is often used as a term indicating nearness as in " Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God" etc. It is also used as an indicator that we are aware that God created us such as in "Our Father who art in heaven".

 

Of course to Muslims this sounds like blasphemy. Indeed in our view IT IS blasphemy . The danger is not in what the average Christian probably means when he/she says these things but in how some may twist the meaning. Islam is a very STRICTLY monotheistic faith. It denies the very existence of other gods. The Bible , in some places, seems to insist in the supremacy of God but not necessarily that He is the only one. For instance in Exodus in the 10 Commandments where it says "thou shalt have no other gods before me". This does not necessarily mean that other gods do not exist but that they should not be given priority. Remember that the Jews at that time , while Prophet Moses (as) was on the mountain built and began to worship a gilded calf. This was a common symbol of a pagan god at that time. Indeed it was the symbol of a god worshipped in the very Egypt where they had JUST been set free from.

 

In any case Muslims object far more to the TERMINOLOGY being used than to what Christians generally mean. As strict monotheists, and in accordance with the dictates of the Qur'an we dislike anything which even seems like equating someone with the Lord. Children grow up to be their parents equals (in most cases). So while Muslims and Christians agree with HOW Jesus (as) was born we will probably always disagree on how to talk about it. And Allah knows best

That being said I disagree with the concept of the trinity entirely. The idea that Jesus (as) was God is preposterous. It would mean that God Himself was crucified. It would also mean that God had prayed to Himself, had a separate will from Himself, ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand side of Himself and had even asked Himself why He had forsaken Himself. I seek refuge in Allah from such beliefs

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Well bro here's the rub. Having been raised as a Christian I know what CHRISTIANS mean when they use the phrase "son of God". I also know what it sounds like to Muslims. In Christianity this is often used as a term indicating nearness as in " Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God" etc. It is also used as an indicator that we are aware that God created us such as in "Our Father who art in heaven".

 

Of course to Muslims this sounds like blasphemy. Indeed in our view IT IS blasphemy . The danger is not in what the average Christian probably means when he/she says these things but in how some may twist the meaning. Islam is a very STRICTLY monotheistic faith. It denies the very existence of other gods. The Bible , in some places, seems to insist in the supremacy of God but not necessarily that He is the only one. For instance in Exodus in the 10 Commandments where it says "thou shalt have no other gods before me". This does not necessarily mean that other gods do not exist but that they should not be given priority. Remember that the Jews at that time , while Prophet Moses (as) was on the mountain built and began to worship a gilded calf. This was a common symbol of a pagan god at that time. Indeed it was the symbol of a god worshipped in the very Egypt where they had JUST been set free from.

 

In any case Muslims object far more to the TERMINOLOGY being used than to what Christians generally mean. As strict monotheists, and in accordance with the dictates of the Qur'an we dislike anything which even seems like equating someone with the Lord. Children grow up to be their parents equals (in most cases). So while Muslims and Christians agree with HOW Jesus (as) was born we will probably always disagree on how to talk about it. And Allah knows best

That being said I disagree with the concept of the trinity entirely. The idea that Jesus (as) was God is preposterous. It would mean that God Himself was crucified. It would also mean that God had prayed to Himself, had a separate will from Himself, ascended to heaven and sat on the right hand side of Himself and had even asked Himself why He had forsaken Himself. I seek refuge in Allah from such beliefs

Imagine, one of the first and foremost doctrines of the Christian faith revolve around Jesus being God. To a Christian, to not believe it would be blasphemy, to a Muslim to believe it is blasphemy. We're not talking Bible, we're talking doctrine...

 

Truth came first, doctrines came later.

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Imagine, one of the first and foremost doctrines of the Christian faith revolve around Jesus being God. To a Christian, to not believe it would be blasphemy, to a Muslim to believe it is blasphemy. We're not talking Bible, we're talking doctrine...

 

Truth came first, doctrines came later.

 

Doctrine comes from Truth. Doctrine comes from God.

 

I'm not understanding this. English is not my language. Can you try to word it in a simpler way ? By the way, what religion/sect is your explanation based on ?

 

 

 

is the shamrock leaf three leaves or one?

is the maple leaf three leaves or one?

is the atom three or one?

 

that's as basic as i can get.

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Solitarr no not SOME, 99% of Christians believe in the Trinity.

It is the cornerstone of the Christian Faith.

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are not Christians and DO NOT believe in the Trinity.

This leaves Placid and the Unitarians and perhaps 7th Day Adventists.

Jehovah's Witnesses are Unitarians -- they reject the divinity of Jesus. Mormons and Seventh-day Adventists are polytheistic; they believe that each of the 3 is a separate deity from the others.

The Bible , in some places, seems to insist in the supremacy of God but not necessarily that He is the only one.

The Bible teaches that there are other gods. But remember, there is a language barrier. Satan is referred to as the god of this world (dunya) in the Bible. It does not mean that Satan is omniscient, omnipotent, ever living, eternal, etc. It merely means that he's in control of the world right now and that he possess the qualities of a deity in this world. Angels are sometimes referred to as gods.

That's one of the biggest confusions between Muslims and Christians.

"God(s)" ≠ Allah(s)

Allah is the one, eternal, all-powerful God. But there are still other ilahas (gods) such as Hubal, al-Manat, al-Lat, etc. They may be fake gods, but they are gods nonetheless.

There is no English equivalent to Allah, so don't automatically assume that when somebody mentions a god that they are referring to the one and only (Allah).

Edited by Agora

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The trinity doesn't exist.

It was created within the devilish mind of Paul with collaboration of the devil and other devilish individuals.

If you were any more ignorant someone would have to dress you. One iota of proof. C'mon, try it. You must have something. Anything?

 

I have a feeling if I showed you there's no evidence of Paul even thinking trinity you would continue lying to yourself and others anyway.

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Jehovah's Witnesses are Unitarians -- they reject the divinity of Jesus. Mormons and Seventh-day Adventists are polytheistic; they believe that each of the 3 is a separate deity from the others.

The Bible teaches that there are other gods. But remember, there is a language barrier. Satan is referred to as the god of this world (dunya) in the Bible. It does not mean that Satan is omniscient, omnipotent, ever living, eternal, etc. It merely means that he's in control of the world right now and that he possess the qualities of a deity in this world. Angels are sometimes referred to as gods.

That's one of the biggest confusions between Muslims and Christians.

"God(s)" ≠ Allah(s)

Allah is the one, eternal, all-powerful God. But there are still other ilahas (gods) such as Hubal, al-Manat, al-Lat, etc. They may be fake gods, but they are gods nonetheless.

There is no English equivalent to Allah, so don't automatically assume that when somebody mentions a god that they are referring to the one and only (Allah).

Hi Agora, welcome to the forum.

Well said. The OT especially is full of references that have been taken as meaning God, but don't, not really. Elsewise Jacob would have wrestled God down and forced him into giving him a blessing.

 

I'm looking over a four leaf clover...Haven't counted the points on a maple leaf, but that would lead me to polytheism.

Atoms contain neutrons and protons, usually more than three, but keep an eye out for those isotopes. ;)

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Jehovah's Witnesses are Unitarians -- they reject the divinity of Jesus. Mormons and Seventh-day Adventists are polytheistic; they believe that each of the 3 is a separate deity from the others.

The Bible teaches that there are other gods. But remember, there is a language barrier. Satan is referred to as the god of this world (dunya) in the Bible. It does not mean that Satan is omniscient, omnipotent, ever living, eternal, etc. It merely means that he's in control of the world right now and that he possess the qualities of a deity in this world. Angels are sometimes referred to as gods.

That's one of the biggest confusions between Muslims and Christians.

"God(s)" ≠ Allah(s)

Allah is the one, eternal, all-powerful God. But there are still other ilahas (gods) such as Hubal, al-Manat, al-Lat, etc. They may be fake gods, but they are gods nonetheless.

There is no English equivalent to Allah, so don't automatically assume that when somebody mentions a god that they are referring to the one and only (Allah).

Yeah but there are still other gods mentioned in the Bible such as Molech etc. The Bible is simply not as strictly monothesitic as the Qur'an. Perhaps that is because the people the Bible is addressing already worshipped Allah so the focus is different. I can't lie and say that I know the reason but I do know it's the case

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Hi Agora, welcome to the forum.

Well said. The OT especially is full of references that have been taken as meaning God, but don't, not really. Elsewise Jacob would have wrestled God down and forced him into giving him a blessing.

I'm looking over a four leaf clover...Haven't counted the points on a maple leaf, but that would lead me to polytheism.

Atoms contain neutrons and protons, usually more than three, but keep an eye out for those isotopes. ;)

Hi Son of Placid, my thanks are yours :)

Jacob wrestled an angel, not God. But, since the Bible is more 'lax with the term "god", it may say (at one point or another) that he wrestled with God. Doesn't Israel itself mean one who wrestles with God? And even the Qur'an gives that name to Jacob (as far as I'm aware).

The government is polytheistic. We have the upper house and the lower house. The prime minister and the monarch as well. Yet somehow we still only have one government? :O shirk. La government ila government.

Yeah but there are still other gods mentioned in the Bible such as Molech etc. The Bible is simply not as strictly monothesitic as the Qur'an. Perhaps that is because the people the Bible is addressing already worshipped Allah so the focus is different. I can't lie and say that I know the reason but I do know it's the case

Doesn't the Qur'an mention the names of two female goddesses? It might be in a demeaning way, but it mentions them nonetheless. The Qur'an and the Bible really have the same objective; get people to submit to The Lord of the Universe, it just has a different way of going about it. The Bible tells you that while other "false gods" (in the modern world they are called money, alcohol, fame, rock stars, etc.) do exist, you should place your focus on the one and only and should stop worshipping the others. The Qur'an takes a different approach and says that there are absolutely no other gods.

Here's a good exercise for inter-faith understanding. When you read the Bible, replace the words "The Lord (thy God)", "The Most High", "The Father", etc with "Allah". Also, replace the word "god(s)" with the word taghoot. Things will make more sense ;)

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