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saberrider

Was Abu Bakr(R.a) Related To Jafar Bin Sadiq(R.a)?

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It doesn't matter especially because the holy Prophet (pbuh) was more closely related to Abu Lahab (l.a.). Kinship without right actions means nothing in Islam.


And if it does mean anything then Bakris, of all people, should hold Imam Ja'far (as) in higher position than some Iraqi scholar of fiqh, since he is related to Abu Bakr? :)

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It doesn't matter especially because the holy Prophet (pbuh) was more closely related to Abu Lahab (l.a.). Kinship without right actions means nothing in Islam.

And if it does mean anything then Bakris, of all people, should hold Imam Ja'far (as) in higher position than some Iraqi scholar of fiqh, since he is related to Abu Bakr? :)

 

"Bakris"....

 

Nice. Thanks for using that term here.

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"Bakris"....

 

Nice. Thanks for using that term here.

 

I don't consider it a derogatory term and its not necessarily one either because those who consider Abu Bakr as a viceregent of the holy Prophet can be safely called that I think.

 

But sorry if someone is offended by the word. And my previous proposition still stands any way.

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I don't consider it a derogatory term and its not necessarily one either because those who consider Abu Bakr as a viceregent of the holy Prophet can be safely called that I think.

 

But sorry if someone is offended by the word. And my previous proposition still stands any way.

Edited by saberrider

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By the way, i found this on his wikipedia page -

 

After Hussein ibn Ali was betrayed, the people of Kufa called Zayd ibn Ali the grandson of Husayns over to Kufa. Zaydis believe that on the last hour of Zayd ibn Ali, Zayd ibn Ali was also betrayed by the people in Kufa who said to him: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab?" Zayd ibn Ali said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"

 

Any comments ? I mean, I know where Shia stand on the first 3 Caliphs, but has this been mentioned in any of their books ?

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By the way, i found this on his wikipedia page -

 

After Hussein ibn Ali was betrayed, the people of Kufa called Zayd ibn Ali the grandson of Husayns over to Kufa. Zaydis believe that on the last hour of Zayd ibn Ali, Zayd ibn Ali was also betrayed by the people in Kufa who said to him: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab?" Zayd ibn Ali said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"

 

Any comments ? I mean, I know where Shia stand on the first 3 Caliphs, but has this been mentioned in any of their books ?

Salamun alaykum. This the Arabic text:

و عن زيد بن على أخو الباقر و عم الصادق " ان ناساً من رؤساء الكوفة و أشرافهم الذين بايعوا زيداً حضروا يوماً عنده ، و قالوا له : رحمك الله ، ماذا تقول فى حق أبى بكر و عمر ؟ قال : ما أقول فيهما إلا خيراً كما أسمع فيهما من أهل بيتي إلا خيرا ، ما ظلمانا و لا أحد غيرنا ، و عملا بكتاب الله و سنة رسوله "

Now 3 points regarding this narration:

1. You can not find it in any Shi'i reliable book of history, hadith, exegesis etc. The only source which has referred to this narration is Nasikh al-Tawarikh which is not a reliable source.

2. It is in explicit contradiction to a narration in Rijal by Kashshi:

عن سدير ، قال : دخلت على أبي جعفر عليه السلام ومعي سلمة بن كهيل و... وعند أبي جعفر عليه السلام أخوه زيد بن علي عليهم السلام فقالوا لأبي جعفر عليه السلام نتولى عليا وحسنا وحسينا ونتبرأ من أعداهم ! قال : نعم . قالوا : نتولى أبا بكر وعمر ونتبرأ من أعدائهم ! قال : فالتفت إليهم زيد بن علي قال لهم أتتبرؤن من فاطمة ؟ بترتم أمرنا بتركم الله ، فيومئذ سموا البترية .

"Sudayr says: I, together with Salama ibn Kuhayl ... went to the presence of Abu Ja'far (Imam Baqir) while Imam's brother, Zaid ibn Ali, was with him. Those who were with me told Imam that we love Ali, Hasan, Husain and hate their enemies. Imam replied: true. They continued: We love Abubakr and Umar and hate their enemies. Hearing this, Zaid told them: Do you hate Fatima? You cut off (batartum: بترتم) our affair. May Allah cut you off. Since then they were called Butriyyah (Rijal by Kashshi, p. 236; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 37, p. 31).

3. According to some, Zaid may have uttered that sentence due to political expediencies because he intended to recruit more troops from various tribes most of whom were Sunnis.

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On 16/03/2014 at 10:50 PM, saberrider said:

"Bakris"....

 

Nice. Thanks for using that term here.

Thanks for using RA after an Imam of Shi3as on a shi3a site.... [EDITED]

Edited by starlight
Please refrain from derogatory comments

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1. You can not find it in any Shi'i reliable book of history, hadith, exegesis etc. The only source which has referred to this narration is Nasikh al-Tawarikh which is not a reliable source.

 

 

Is that a Shia book and what does it mean that it isn't a reliable source? Is the author unknown or there are weaknesses in the chain of the books etc?

 

Thanks for using RA after an Imam of Shi3as on a shi3a site.... idiot

 

You don't have to call him names, he is a Sunni and it is not really expected they use 'alayhis salaam' after the Imams. He used 'radhiallahu anhu' which is better than most Sunnis not using anything at all. Also, if you were to go on a Sunni forum, would you ever use RA after the Sunni caliphs?

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By the way, i found this on his wikipedia page -

 

After Hussein ibn Ali was betrayed, the people of Kufa called Zayd ibn Ali the grandson of Husayns over to Kufa. Zaydis believe that on the last hour of Zayd ibn Ali, Zayd ibn Ali was also betrayed by the people in Kufa who said to him: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab?" Zayd ibn Ali said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"

 

Any comments ? I mean, I know where Shia stand on the first 3 Caliphs, but has this been mentioned in any of their books ?

I am a Zaydi Shia and yes it is in our books. That is why , although we know that Abu Bakr  & Umar took the caliphate when they shouldn't have, we avoid denouncing them doing takfir etc. The people of Kufa , after hearing the speech by Imam Zayd (as) quoted above, turned on him and refused to join his revolution. He proceeded with it and was martyred. 12ers do not accept Zayd (as) as an Imam and this is the root of our differences more or less.......

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Thanks for using RA after an Imam of Shi3as on a shi3a site.... idiot

 

Wow :angel: . I had written that as a sign of respect, if you know what that means. Yes, he is considered an infallible 6th Imam by Shias and I am a Sunni, but that does not mean i disrespect him or something. He was still an Imam of Islam. We only use  عليه السلام‎, or ʿalayhi as-salām for Prophets before Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) 

 

It means - "May God Be Pleased With Him." Here you go, just in case -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhiallahu_'anhu

I am a Zaydi Shia and yes it is in our books. That is why , although we know that Abu Bakr  & Umar took the caliphate when they shouldn't have, we avoid denouncing them doing takfir etc. The people of Kufa , after hearing the speech by Imam Zayd (as) quoted above, turned on him and refused to join his revolution. He proceeded with it and was martyred. 12ers do not accept Zayd (as) as an Imam and this is the root of our differences more or less.......

 

Hello and Salaam. Which book is it exactly that you are referring to ?

Edited by saberrider

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Wow really? That term (Bakri) is a bad term used against our Sunni brothers. He never talked ill of the Imam...

 

Is that a Shia book and what does it mean that it isn't a reliable source? Is the author unknown or there are weaknesses in the chain of the books etc?

 

 

You don't have to call him names, he is a Sunni and it is not really expected they use 'alayhis salaam' after the Imams. He used 'radhiallahu anhu' which is better than most Sunnis not using anything at all. Also, if you were to go on a Sunni forum, would you ever use RA after the Sunni caliphs?

 

Wow :angel: . I had written that as a sign of respect, if you know what that means. Yes, he is considered an infallible 6th Imam by Shias and I am a Sunni, but that does not mean i disrespect him or something. He was still an Imam of Islam. We only use  عليه السلام‎, or ʿalayhi as-salām for Prophets before Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) 

 

It means - "May God Be Pleased With Him." Here you go, just in case -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhiallahu_'anhu

 

Hello and Salaam. Which book is it exactly that you are referring to ?

Why is some Pakistani teaching me arabic like im some kind of illiterate. Since we have the rule of not sending la3na on the caliphs, then there should also be the rule that (as) should be put after the 14 infallibles.

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Why is some Pakistani teaching me arabic like im some kind of illiterate. Since we have the rule of not sending la3na on the caliphs, then there should also be the rule that (as) should be put after the 14 infallibles.

 

So much for religious harmony.

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 

So much for religious harmony.

 

I'm not really one to be rude to a Sunni and curse the Sahaba to his face, but there is really no such thing as religious harmony until Shi'as can feel safe living as Shi'as, if anything it's just a fairy tale that people think will happen if we stop saying Bakri and cursing the Shaykhayn - it's not going to, but then again when you have traditional idiots like those found on HCY (who all day translate arguments against Shi'as from Arabic forums, formulate cliched straw man arguments, and mock Shi'as for the most arbitrary reasons (along side most anti-shia sunnis) - and be racist to Iranis as well), unity is just a happy fantasy. Just my two cents, and my apologies for going off topic.

 

والسلام

Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

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"Just my two cents, and my apologies for going off topic."

 

 


wa `alaykumu s-salāmu wa rahmatu l-lāhi wa barakātuh.

 

No harm done.

Edited by saberrider

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By the way, i found this on his wikipedia page -

After Hussein ibn Ali was betrayed, the people of Kufa called Zayd ibn Ali the grandson of Husayns over to Kufa. Zaydis believe that on the last hour of Zayd ibn Ali, Zayd ibn Ali was also betrayed by the people in Kufa who said to him: "May God have mercy on you! What do you have to say on the matter of Abu Bakr and Umar ibn al-Khattab?" Zayd ibn Ali said, "I have not heard anyone in my family renouncing them both nor saying anything but good about them...when they were entrusted with government they behaved justly with the people and acted according to the Qur'an and the Sunnah"

Any comments ? I mean, I know where Shia stand on the first 3 Caliphs, but has this been mentioned in any of their books ?

Yes the Hadith is mentioned in Shia sources Bruv

I studied it long time ago but it is mentioned in two or three Shia books

Anyways JAZAKALLAH KHER

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