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In the Name of God بسم الله

Barriers For Marriage.

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Thank you

A real story: A girl married a man against the will of her parents, she was independent financially and mature enough to do so. Her husband is good guy from another region/culture (if you will use Grey matter definition of culture = same neighborhood  of parents). Later, she gave birth to autistic child, she had a condition that made her abort every pregnancy and so her husband married another wife.

Her father did not talk to her after her marriage  and if there was something that she cried about at work, it was this very issue. She did not regret anything but this, knowing her father is old and ill, knowing she might not see him in few years is a torture to any believer.

 

 

i actually know a girl who had a similar story but she did not give birth yet...in her case it wasn't about marrying someone her dad not liking (its not all about that) but her dad knew the REAL person of this man & he kept warning her. another side to this story is that they were related as 'double cousins'...i brought this up in anotehr thread...but the main point was her parents refused for health issue & cuz the 2 families did not like each other or get along at all. they hated each other & her father thought he was a low personality & im sure he was right cuz her dad would be his uncle & he would know best...but she went agasint her parents choice & married him anyways. even though other people in her family (aunts, uncles) thought she was making a big mistake as well.

 

yes sometimes our parents r too critizing & unfair but most times they know whats best for us in marriage cuz they have the experience for it. honestly, i think the girl i know & the one in this ^ story are both wrong to go against their parents like that. who do u have when everyone else leaves ur side?? its ur parents who will always be there for u.

If you aren't mature by the time you are 30, you probably never will be. (Exact age and circumstances will vary, but most people over 30 who have never married are probably unmarriageable, both men and women.) Maturity comes with acceptance of responsibility, especially responsibility for others, not responsibility should only be given to people who are mature.

 

i agree with this for some of the men in our soiety today & for those i know, but not for the women...and just cuz a woman is 30 & not married does not mean she is 'unmarriagable' cuz i know 2 women like that & they are more mature than ANY guy i have ever met before. 

Feminism turns guys off. 

 

^ this is true i have realised it in some men from certain cultures...but i think probably its true for Arab men the most & least for Pakistani/Indian men....Arab men hate women who r stronger than them in everything especially in personality

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Salam,    I know there are many single brothers and sisters on SC.  I also know that most of them want to get married. So maybe we can come up with a list of the 'top three' or 'top five' barriers to

Abu Hadi should start his own match making site ! 

Oh boy, this will be a long one.   First of all, marriage isn't economically viable, especially in today's time when prices are rising faster than the number of jobs available in the market. Sure, job

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Sooooo this post just killed the dream of a pakistani husband, as I am neither pakistani, south Asian or syeda.

 

Well if a Pakistani family who isn't indoctrinated by a highly bigoted backward culture, you would have a shot there. InshAllah, it will all work out for you.

But you might have to look hard, since most Pakistanis pride themselves by representing their sole existence by following this culture.. as if we are living in Pakistan in the '70s, and not somewhere else.

 

I have seen Pakistani parents loose their minds over even after marriages.

 

Even when the dude married as per all their preferences, they still are depressed cause [insert a million reasons].

 

They range from son moving out, son not naming his kids as per us, son staying in house but spending time in his bedroom, daughter-in-law stepping out the house, this, that, that, this.

 

It is like Pakistani parents unintentionally try hard that their son does not marry by putting in ridiculous demands, and when the marriage does happen, they unintentionally try to put barriers and conflicts in a marriage between the couple, 'their' couple, by again, putting in ridiculous demands.

Edited by GreyMatter
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^ this is true i have realised it in some men from certain cultures...but i think probably its true for Arab men the most & least for Pakistani/Indian men....Arab men hate women who r stronger than them in everything especially in personality

Maybe these men are turned off because they have a certain expectation of what a feminist is like.  I consider myself a feminist and luckily, so does my husband so it was not a turn off at all. Of course, he is American though. Being a feminist does not mean you hate men, children, or marriage or whatever the stereotypes are, it just means you want to see equality for both men and women.  That does not mean men and women identical, but equal.  There are too many unjust practices against women in the world, and unfortunately, we in the Muslim community, have some major problems with women.  Insha'Allah, things will change though.  Sorry for the rant.

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Well if a Pakistani family who isn't indoctrinated by a highly bigoted backward culture, you would have a shot there. InshAllah, it will all work out for you.

But you might have to look hard, since most Pakistanis pride themselves by representing their sole existence by following this culture.. as if we are living in Pakistan in the '70s, and not somewhere else.

 

I have seen Pakistani parents loose their minds over even after marriages.

 

Even when the dude married as per all their preferences, they still are depressed cause [insert a million reasons].

 

They range from son moving out, son not naming his kids as per us, son staying in house but spending time in his bedroom, daughter-in-law stepping out the house, this, that, that, this.

 

It is like Pakistani parents unintentionally try hard that their son does not marry by putting in ridiculous demands, and when the marriage does happen, they unintentionally try to put barriers and conflicts in a marriage between the couple, 'their' couple, by again, putting in ridiculous demands.

 

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and jahalat of Al-Bakistanis".

 

__Albert GreyMatter Einstein

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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and jahalat of Al-Bakistanis".

 

__Albert GreyMatter Einstein

 

Aye bro, let me vent, I know that I cannot slander the entire 192 million people, lol, you should see me when 'em Indians or Arabs try to put down glorious PakiLand infront of me, I let them know whose boss :P

 

I had this one revert bro who hated Pakistan, after some lecturing, he came to me all in and respected Musharraf, and the Pakistani military :D

 

So it's not like I am self-hater lol, sorry though, just. need. to. vent. on. culture. 

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Aye bro, let me vent, I know that I cannot slander the entire 192 million people, lol, you should see me when 'em Indians or Arabs try to put down glorious PakiLand infront of me, I let them know whose boss :P

 

I had this one revert bro who hated Pakistan, after some lecturing, he came to me all in and respected Musharraf, and the Pakistani military :D

 

So it's not like I am self-hater lol, sorry though, just. need. to. vent. on. culture. 

 

Lol, no, I didn't mean to imply self-hate, yaar, come on. Although I know humour has been lost on ShiaChat of late, I was only jesting. In any case, self-criticism is good, I'm all for it.

 

What you have commented on is a deep problem, rooted in our great collectivism. There are benefits, sure, but none wants to talk about its downside. In families with formidable hierarchies, the elders want to assert complete control on their children no matter how old they become.

 

The person who leases my land is 60 years old. Once he made a business deal without informing his nonagenarian father (94 years old). Oh dear, hell broke lose. "I'm still alive you fool. How come it never occurred to you to ask me first if this is a good idea", was the great patriarch's reply. Needless, this old daddy must have chosen brides and grooms for his 11 children, and must also have named their sons and daughters, and given how much authority he commands (not due to some magical qualities but only just because he is the oldest surviving male), he probably also chosen his grandchildren's brides and grooms. :D

 

The other problem is that Al-Bakistanis poke their noses into others businesses too much. I haven't been able to ascertain the sociocultural reasons behind this attitude. I think they just need cheap entertainment, especially housewives-aunties, such boring lives they live anyway.

 

So vent on, bro...

Edited by Marbles
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Heh, pulling out the liberal card I see, seems to be everyone's pastime here, some sort of an insecure reflex, do give it a rest.

 

Classic definition of projection.  The liberal gang has the insecure reflex on this topic, as I demonstrated ealier, but reflexively associates the practice with me.  Probably because of insecurity. 

 

I'll just accept you statment above as your concession in this thread.

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Well if a Pakistani family who isn't indoctrinated by a highly bigoted backward culture, you would have a shot there. InshAllah, it will all work out for you.

But you might have to look hard, since most Pakistanis pride themselves by representing their sole existence by following this culture.. as if we are living in Pakistan in the '70s, and not somewhere else.

 

I have seen Pakistani parents loose their minds over even after marriages.

 

Even when the dude married as per all their preferences, they still are depressed cause [insert a million reasons].

 

They range from son moving out, son not naming his kids as per us, son staying in house but spending time in his bedroom, daughter-in-law stepping out the house, this, that, that, this.

 

It is like Pakistani parents unintentionally try hard that their son does not marry by putting in ridiculous demands, and when the marriage does happen, they unintentionally try to put barriers and conflicts in a marriage between the couple, 'their' couple, by again, putting in ridiculous demands.

Your life is difficult !

You should write a note and stick it on the fridge "Dear parents , I am sorry but I have to leave due to impossibility of me pleasing you, like ever". 

I find that these silly protests of younglings are the best to fix parents. It si hard to use these tactics when one is older. If youth are to marry younger, they'd force their parents to change their mind. Noon is really ready to deal with silliness of teens.

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Maybe these men are turned off because they have a certain expectation of what a feminist is like.  I consider myself a feminist and luckily, so does my husband so it was not a turn off at all. Of course, he is American though. Being a feminist does not mean you hate men, children, or marriage or whatever the stereotypes are, it just means you want to see equality for both men and women.  That does not mean men and women identical, but equal.  There are too many unjust practices against women in the world, and unfortunately, we in the Muslim community, have some major problems with women.  Insha'Allah, things will change though.  Sorry for the rant.

 

i know what ur talking about & what feminism means but theirs a lot of uneducated ppl in this part of teh world and they see feminism as a bad thing that challenges their authorityy and threatens them (the men i mean). ive stopped talking about feminism with any other guy i know cuz ive learned its a big turnoff & it will make them never consider me if i do talk about it.....no one learns easy though

 

someone said on another thread that men hate foul-mouthed women....well feminism sounds foul-mouthed to them

Edited by Mlle. Advice
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I am of the view that more Muslim women should take up the cause of feminism. Given the terrible state of women in the so called Muslim societies (you'd think having a religious worldview would make people better, but usually the opposite happens; they get worse towards women), we need more feminism not less. More women in partnership with sensible men who want to challenge the rotten patriarchy that limits women's abilities to that of child-making machines, embroiders and cooks. There is a need to do serious consciousness-raising among Muslim youth towards the deep roots of anti-women sentiment that lay hidden beneath the facade of culture and tradition. Our collective complacency towards backward feudal view of women's place in society needs to be seriously challenged; resorting solely to a religious line and exhorting people to "respect" the rights of women won't work, it doesn't work.

 

(And when I say feminism, I don't mean the headline-making, nudist-inspired, radical feminism of the press, which is actually a caricature of serious feminism, and as much a headache to mainstream feminists as it is to the religious and decent people).

You have no idea about the problems of muslim women at all, the root cause of the horrific backwardness is tribalism like the radical adherence to Pashtunwali. No inheritance, honour killings, and other atrocities you leftist idiots will never give a damn about because religion is not involved.

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Please develop some small amount of compassion for your young Muslim sisters…. Do women have to do it all? At any price??

Your lack of compassion is confusing.

A possible explanation for the respected brother's apparent lack of compassion: men, when faced with stressful situations, become less empathetic. Women, more. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317095927.htm (Yet another example of how we are supposed to balance each other. )

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Feminism simply means equality for men and women. Islam has equality for men and women, Islam also recognizes that men and women have different roles.

If your idea of 'feminism' are things that fall outside of the realm of a Islam and the liberal type 'feminism' seen in the west than that's a problem.

If you're idea of feminism is fulfilling the full rights within Islam of women within Islamic countries or Islamic countries than that's good and I agree with that because in many countries, communities, societies, cultural values have overtaken Islamic values and have tried to undermine women which is not part of Islam.

If any 'Muslim' disagrees within feminism within the realm of a Islam than they are not worth marrying

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If any 'Muslim' disagrees within feminism within the realm of a Islam than they are not worth marrying

Am sure their are plent of men that disgree, regradless of what you say. Not ever man can handle a woman that has strong views,that wants equallity. Insecure men prefer a woman with no voice,right, a doormat bascially. They have a problem usually they think they will lose their masculinity or authority...

Anyways, inshallah their will be more feminist and understanding men..

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Religion was sent to be a great blessing for humanity. Islam is here to help people and make their lives easy, including marriage. Unfortunatly our societies have opressed the masses.

there are a number of reasons that marriage is difficult these days, but all of them point to people as a whole accepting every thing bbut the ways layed out to us by Allah (swt).

 

May Allah grant all the believers good and pious spouses.

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Feminism simply means equality for men and women. Islam has equality for men and women, Islam also recognizes that men and women have different roles.

If your idea of 'feminism' are things that fall outside of the realm of a Islam and the liberal type 'feminism' seen in the west than that's a problem.

If you're idea of feminism is fulfilling the full rights within Islam of women within Islamic countries or Islamic countries than that's good and I agree with that because in many countries, communities, societies, cultural values have overtaken Islamic values and have tried to undermine women which is not part of Islam.

If any 'Muslim' disagrees within feminism within the realm of a Islam than they are not worth marrying

Hmm. You've a very restrictive definition of feminism then my friend. There are many respectable Muslim feminists (and no, not Irshad Manji, Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali etc) who argue that what you refer to as "the realm of Islam" has been written, interpreted, and dominated by Muslim males and thereby fails to adequately address the complex realities that women face. Sure, we can pretend that in their writings and interpretations men have not ignored women. But then that's where I'd respectfully disagree with you.

 

For instance, if female perspectives had more currency, I can assure you polygamy would be a thing so rare, you'd only find it in museums of ancient civilizations. Essentially, feminism is a struggle for equal rights in the face of what many would like to impose in the name of a male-centric perspective of Islam. Can it overstep its boundaries? Sure, just like Muslim men have for centuries. Latest example being the nutcases at Pakistan's Council of Islamic Ideology who've objected to minimum age limits on marriage for women.

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You have no idea about the problems of muslim women at all, the root cause of the horrific backwardness is tribalism like the radical adherence to Pashtunwali. No inheritance, honour killings, and other atrocities you leftist idiots will never give a damn about because religion is not involved.

 

This is so enlightening. I'm undone, unhorsed, out of the show! You have emptied me. I have to get away to refill :cry:

 

Now, I used the words 'culture', 'tradition' and 'feudal' to highlight the roots of women's oppression and said that fixing it through a mullah's tried-and-tested religious discourse doesn't work in this day and age. Put forth your argument if you disagree, instead of whingeing and name-calling.

 

It is your despised "leftists" and "liberals" and "seculars" who are at the forefront in the opposition to Pashtunwali and other such anti-women cultural codes. I have yet to see a "religious" organisation or party taking out a car-burning, street-breaking, club-carrying protests against the outrage committed against women in the name of tradition and tribal code.

 

Where were the likes of you when a group of girls were buried alive in Balochistan to which the MP from the area said "it's our tradition to punish the elopers." Who, liberals or so called religious, highlighted her cause and that of the hundreds others who are victim to barbaric tribal codes?

 

On the contrary, tribalism gets lease of life by the conformist traditionalism of the very "religious people" who claim to have all the answers to all the world's problems.

 

I don't like hypocrisy.

Edited by Marbles
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Yeah my bad, was quite zealous this afternoon lol. This is something very personal for me that's why, these tribal freaks had almost ruined my dad's life in Iraq. We live in England now and he tells me the stories back home of redneck arabs who would praise their sons doing zina, whilst murdering their daughters if they simply lost their virginity. Newspapers would be filled of such atrocities, and when my dad would protest that its a haram thing for men to do zina (besides the punishment for pre-marital sex being 100 lashes lol), they'd tell him "khellee ildeen illek" (keep religion to yourself). The most jahil, repulsive lot you could imagine and they hated the religious folks (whom its fashionable to sob about for all evils in the world).  The Quran has detailed inheritance laws, where - depending on the position of a woman in the family - she either gets half, equal or more than her male family members. And here we are in the 21st century and Pashtuns and tribal arabs refuse to give a single penny to their daughters in inheritance; my grandmother unfortunately suffered this injustice, being reminded that as a woman she'd squander the wealth. What beautiful folk wisdom.

 

Here my dad lives on; a deeply religious man, does his five daily prayers, constantly talks about religion day and night, and he was the biggest vocal critic against these injustices of his time. Its just really frustrating now when I read the things you say, 'oh people when they get more religious theyre more anti-woman' when in fact its the religiosity of people like my dad that compels them to speak for woman's rights against the savage tribalism rampant in the [Edited Out]py middle east (especially in Jordan and rural areas in Iraq and Afghanistan).

 

I'm sorry to know what your father had to go through. He did his jihad and inshallah will be rewarded in this life and in the Hereafter. When I say 'religious' I don't mean those practicing, noble, pious people who stand in the face of oppression to speak against the oppressed; by that I refer to the growth of unhealthy worldview which masquerades as 'religious', the product of organised mullahism, the reactionary brigades who legitimise all oppression if they believe "it is in Islam". Such is the corruption of their interpretation of Islam that I see little difference between them and the barbarian tribalism you've referred to. And these sorts have gained a lot of strength the world over, and have come to become a major block towards healthy reform and progress.

 

As I said, I am really hard pressed to find a single protest organised by these mobs who otherwise come out of nowhere to burn embassies and foreign food joints because of some silly cartoons published in the West. I mean, they claim to be so religious, look at their beards and knee-length trousers, and the mohr marks on their (usually ugly) faces, you'd think they'd spare a protest or two when a 5 year old girl is raped, or when girls are buried alive for running away from the oppression of tribal parents. But heck no, never, and then their leaders have the temerity to appear on TV in outrage, frothing at the mouth, eyes popping out, gesticulating wildly, against the moral depravity in society. In their view, moral depravity and shamelessness is only defined by how a woman is dressed, or when she dances to audience on the television, not when girls are raped and buried alive.

 

I wish these people also said "keep religion to yourself" but they say the exact opposite; 'what we do is and for Islam!'. So what went wrong with them I wonder, don't you?

 

A way to dilute the influence of anti-religion secularism and anti-religion feminism is for more practicing religious people to come forth and embrace those ideals. These concepts are what you make them out to be. Mold them to fit your needs, rather than importing the discourse from the West. If practicing, good Muslims took up these ideas they'd be able to bring about a change in the character of these ideas (There's already a discussion about 'Muslim feminism' in the Western feminist academia and a recognition of the fact that women from other civilisations don't have to respond in the same way; they chart their own discourse in the light of the predicaments they face at home rather than importing wholesale the feminist framework of middle-class Protestant Western White Women).

Edited by Marbles
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A way to dilute the influence of anti-religion secularism and anti-religion feminism is for more practicing religious people to come forth and embrace those ideals. These concepts are what you make them out to be. Mold them to fit your needs, rather than importing the discourse from the West. If practicing, good Muslims took up these ideas they'd be able to bring about a change in the character of these ideas (There's already a discussion about 'Muslim feminism' in the Western feminist academia and a recognition of the fact that women from other civilisations don't have to respond in the same way; they chart their own discourse in the light of the predicaments they face at home rather than importing wholesale the feminist framework of middle-class Protestant Western White Women).

Ditto! And very few people realize that the so-called 'leftists' are at the forefront of refuting the garbage spewed out by both of these extremist forces. It's unfortunate how many people within Muslims and without consider voices like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji to be outstanding examples of feminism. Bleukh.

 

Here's an excellent short read by Fawzia Afzal-Khan, a Pakistani professor at Montclair State U: http://www.counterpunch.org/2001/11/16/here-are-voices-of-muslim-feminists/

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A possible explanation for the respected brother's apparent lack of compassion: men, when faced with stressful situations, become less empathetic. Women, more. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140317095927.htm (Yet another example of how we are supposed to balance each other. )

I feel it is a case of passive bullying. Some bullies will force the weaker to face the fire to test if the fire will catch him or not, then they either mock the weak for being fool to face the fire or act like parasites when things work. 

There are adult -mature- men who are financially independent and some of them are even socially not bound to merciless community or culture or country , but when they fail or feel they are not brave enough to face the stupid culture, they blame it all on the girls for siding with their parents.

At least, parents won't ask them to do something then call them indecent afterwords. I'd trust and respect the decision of strict parent than the whims of coward potential spouse.

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At least, parents won't ask them to do something then call them indecent afterwords. I'd trust and respect the decision of strict parent than the whims of coward potential spouse.

There are men (and women) who are bullies, but I would never accuse brother Abu Hadi of bullying. The reason Maryyam and I were baffled by his apparent lack of compassion is because he has a history of being one of the more level headed, fair members of this site.

I had a suspicion the difference in reaction of individuals who have been through similar situations was gender based, and I came across a report of a study that supports that suspicion. Apparently a man who has endured being ostracized from his family will think "If I can do this, others can too." Whereas a woman who has endured being ostracized will think "I have been through this and it was terrible; nobody should have to do this." Too much and too little empathy are both bad. That is another reason men and women need each other to achieve balance.

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Salaams.

 

Marriage is a blessing in disguise and security of the half the faith.  But seeing the generation and to where its heading towards is really scary.  We need to encourage our generations as well as the community as whole to work towards marriage in most simple and right ways of the prophet,s ways of marriage and his views about marriage.  Not jsut follow and do it culturely or traditionally.  If a boy and a girl are of mature age, and have Iman  and character than the material things can be dealt with slowly.  Rather than having richness of material and spending so much money to do the marriage and not having the real meaning of Islam and what it is asking from the couples who are getting married.

 

thank you 

 

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There are men (and women) who are bullies, but I would never accuse brother Abu Hadi of bullying. The reason Maryyam and I were baffled by his apparent lack of compassion is because he has a history of being one of the more level headed, fair members of this site.

I had a suspicion the difference in reaction of individuals who have been through similar situations was gender based, and I came across a report of a study that supports that suspicion. Apparently a man who has endured being ostracized from his family will think "If I can do this, others can too." Whereas a woman who has endured being ostracized will think "I have been through this and it was terrible; nobody should have to do this." Too much and too little empathy are both bad. That is another reason men and women need each other to achieve balance.

 

I think most of the sisters and some brothers have misunderstood my position on this. I would just like to breifly clarify. 

 

I don't think I am showing a lack of empathy simply by bringing to light authentic hadith which have been ignored by the community and a result of this disregard for authentic hadith is that corruption is overwhelming our community. The corruption is becoming so obvious now (check out the brothers forum, every other thread with the title 'I am addicted to pornography and masturbation', many of these are Shia muslims) that even those who live extremely sheltered lives are starting to see it. 

 

I am not saying it is all the sisters fault. If you look, you can see my many. many  comments telling brothers that this (above and other things) are haram and they should not do them and they will be accountable before Allah(s.w.a) on Day of Judgement for this. There were also many comments made about blaming women who don't wear hijab for being abused physically by men. I also told the brothers that just because a women is not in hijab is no excuse for abusing her and we should not do this regardless. I carried this so far, that I was accused by some brothers of being a feminist (which is kind of funny and ironic for those who know me in the real, offline world). So when I make these sorts of comments, there are certain members who 'like' my posts, but when I say that sisters and parents in the community have to take some responsibility for the current, corrupt state of affairs in our community, (and it is not all, completely, 100% the fault of the brothers, as many here believe) then they say that I have no empathy. As Allah(s.w.a) is my witness, I am not saying any of these things so that people will 'like' me or not like me, I am only saying this because I feel that I have a duty before Allah(s.w.a) to call my fellow muslim brothers and sisters to Haqq and that when we fail, as a community to do this, we all will be the losers. 

 

The fact that I was shunned from my family has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing. So I think it is irrelevant to the current discussion. I made a mistake in even bringing it up in this thread. I was not shunned based on who I married or didn't marry, and my shunning happened  years before I married into the muslim community. Yes, I have empathy for those who are shunned from their family at the same time if you know something is right and would please Allah(s.w.a) based on the knowledge you have thru teaching of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s), and you don't do it, fearing being shunned from your family, then not doing this action is wrong from the point of view of teachings of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s). 

 

Again, if I would have done that, then I never would have become muslim, because I lost many family members, many friends, and many advantages in the dunya as a result of this decision, but what I gained (by becoming muslim) was much greater than what I lost. Allah replaced the jahil family that I lost with mumin and mumina, the jahil and fasiq friends that I lost with mumin friends, and the advantanges in the dunya with advantages in the akhira, Alhamduillah for that. Anyone who obeys what they know to be true from the source of truth which is authentic teaching of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) will get the same result. I am not unique in this. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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There are men (and women) who are bullies, but I would never accuse brother Abu Hadi of bullying. The reason Maryyam and I were baffled by his apparent lack of compassion is because he has a history of being one of the more level headed, fair members of this site.

I had a suspicion the difference in reaction of individuals who have been through similar situations was gender based, and I came across a report of a study that supports that suspicion. Apparently a man who has endured being ostracized from his family will think "If I can do this, others can too." Whereas a woman who has endured being ostracized will think "I have been through this and it was terrible; nobody should have to do this." Too much and too little empathy are both bad. That is another reason men and women need each other to achieve balance.

My first posts were leaning to neutrality and i would have continued to be neutral if it was not to unreasonable request from brothers. They even are not ready to hear it from sisters side nor from parents side. As if they are the only oppressed subject in this chaotic reality. Women suffers as well from delaying marriage, maybe 10 times a man suffers. Women suffers from early marriage as well which is why parents are very strict. It is not that she will go through a failing experience in life, but that very experience will shape her future till her death. While a man may not loose chances if he delayed his marriage or remarried, women do not have privilege of a second experience in most times.

Maybe Abu Hadi is not a bully, but this request from him looks like bullying even if he did not mean to bully. Girls do have responsibilities to make life easier no doubt,some may try to convince their parents that their decision to reject the suitor is wrong and it happened in numerous occasions , sometimes the girls were right other times the parents were right, this though should not mount up to ask sisters to give up on their parents because sweet boy knocked their door.

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@Abu Hadi: thank you for clarifying. Your original words did come across as accusatory toward women who choose family over marriage.

In most cases where parents refuse a suitor that the daughter likes, the daughter should accept their refusal. It is only in rare cases that she should go against her family. There is a reason it is wajib to obtain the guardian's permission. When the father makes it clear that his refusal is un-Islamic, in some cases the daughter might be right to elope anyway. Whatever she chooses, she, her husband, both sets of parents, any children, siblings, and others all have to live with it and the consequences either way may be lasting.

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I'm sorry to know what your father had to go through. He did his jihad and inshallah will be rewarded in this life and in the Hereafter. When I say 'religious' I don't mean those practicing, noble, pious people who stand in the face of oppression to speak against the oppressed; by that I refer to the growth of unhealthy worldview which masquerades as 'religious', the product of organised mullahism, the reactionary brigades who legitimise all oppression if they believe "it is in Islam". Such is the corruption of their interpretation of Islam that I see little difference between them and the barbarian tribalism you've referred to. And these sorts have gained a lot of strength the world over, and have come to become a major block towards healthy reform and progress.

 

As I said, I am really hard pressed to find a single protest organised by these mobs who otherwise come out of nowhere to burn embassies and foreign food joints because of some silly cartoons published in the West. I mean, they claim to be so religious, look at their beards and knee-length trousers, and the mohr marks on their (usually ugly) faces, you'd think they'd spare a protest or two when a 5 year old girl is raped, or when girls are buried alive for running away from the oppression of tribal parents. But heck no, never, and then their leaders have the temerity to appear on TV in outrage, frothing at the mouth, eyes popping out, gesticulating wildly, against the moral depravity in society. In their view, moral depravity and shamelessness is only defined by how a woman is dressed, or when she dances to audience on the television, not when girls are raped and buried alive.

 

I wish these people also said "keep religion to yourself" but they say the exact opposite; 'what we do is and for Islam!'. So what went wrong with them I wonder, don't you?

 

A way to dilute the influence of anti-religion secularism and anti-religion feminism is for more practicing religious people to come forth and embrace those ideals. These concepts are what you make them out to be. Mold them to fit your needs, rather than importing the discourse from the West. If practicing, good Muslims took up these ideas they'd be able to bring about a change in the character of these ideas (There's already a discussion about 'Muslim feminism' in the Western feminist academia and a recognition of the fact that women from other civilisations don't have to respond in the same way; they chart their own discourse in the light of the predicaments they face at home rather than importing wholesale the feminist framework of middle-class Protestant Western White Women).

 

Hate them all you want, these guys who obsess over cartoons and not the faults of their own society shouldn't concern you; what matters is what the religion itself and devoted ulema have been saying for the last fourteen centuries. Im not sure why their attitude is such but it could be because the assaults coming from 'the West' are seen as a bigger threat to their way of life than anything some Pashtun does in the countryside.

 

Half of the enlightened dimwits here can't distinguish between the left and liberal in the first place. Conservative ideals have always been a part of the true left.

 

The political discourse in Pakistan is a reflection of what European political discourse has come to; the right wing are the supposedly religious folk who are apologetic for the Taliban while the left are the self-hating 'liberals' or communists who want a radical change in society.  Whether the 'true left' have always been conservative is irrelevant. Heck many of the right wing see the leftists of today espousing a perverted form of liberalism ('politically correct liberalism' as they call it), except they also happen to view themselves as upholders of conservative values. 

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What about India? No Muslim can be described as Pagan as Indians, and Indian culture.
Mix tribalism with Pagan Indian culture(Bollywood, (Indian) MUSIC) and you get what you have in many Asian countries today, closemindedness.

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Mainly I think the worst barrier for both men and women is the lack of community help.

 

It's almost shameful for a girl to mention she wants to marry (even if she tells another girl) and it's shameful for the guy (unless he is stacking villas and cars into the dowry). This is even the case on SC. 

 

I think the generation that is married and capable of helping needs to be more active in marrying those that are facing difficulties. Whether it be financial, circumstantial, geographical, whatever it may be. Not every man has parents that can help him, nor does every girl live in the most populated Shia communities. 

 

I remember a couple of years back there was a rich Lebanese business man who wanted to give back to the community so he decided to sponsor some couples weddings and moving expenses in my moms village. It helped a lot of people that were struggling to get married. 

 

The men that are married and financially capable should donate to men that are deserving of some help, or at least vouch for them if they're good men, cut them some slack and give them that push. And the women need to become a community of match makers that introduces without forcing.

 

People have this saying in Lebanon 'bhot 2edi b jnaze abel mahot 2edi bjaze', it literally means I would rather put my hand into helping with a funeral than a marriage. This way of thinking is just wrong. 

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^ the only reason why people say that is because once a marriage goes wrong, people bring up the name of the person that introduced them to their spouse. Lol, some just insult the person and the time they meet their patner throu this person and others start questionning themself and why the trusted that person.

Bascially,it's a way of blaming other for your problem. That's why people dont want to get involved, they dont want to be told oh the guy you brought is this that.

Most people will only tell you the good side of a person, no one will tell you he/she is not good. And this is why many people divorce. They find out later what their like. Some time people that introduce you to someone dont even know the person well and they to get shocked at how the person turnned out to be.

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Hmm. You've a very restrictive definition of feminism then my friend. There are many respectable Muslim feminists (and no, not Irshad Manji, Wafa Sultan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali etc) who argue that what you refer to as "the realm of Islam" has been written, interpreted, and dominated by Muslim males and thereby fails to adequately address the complex realities that women face. Sure, we can pretend that in their writings and interpretations men have not ignored women. But then that's where I'd respectfully disagree with you.

For instance, if female perspectives had more currency, I can assure you polygamy would be a thing so rare, you'd only find it in museums of ancient civilizations. Essentially, feminism is a struggle for equal rights in the face of what many would like to impose in the name of a male-centric perspective of Islam. Can it overstep its boundaries? Sure, just like Muslim men have for centuries. Latest example being the nutcases at Pakistan's Council of Islamic Ideology who've objected to minimum age limits on marriage for women.

I actually never referred to what the "realm of feminism is" I just stated it exists. So what you said by my definition being restrictive is pretty senseless here because I never stated the definition.

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This is so enlightening. I'm undone, unhorsed, out of the show! You have emptied me. I have to get away to refill :cry:

 

Now, I used the words 'culture', 'tradition' and 'feudal' to highlight the roots of women's oppression and said that fixing it through a mullah's tried-and-tested religious discourse doesn't work in this day and age. Put forth your argument if you disagree, instead of whingeing and name-calling.

 

It is your despised "leftists" and "liberals" and "seculars" who are at the forefront in the opposition to Pashtunwali and other such anti-women cultural codes. I have yet to see a "religious" organisation or party taking out a car-burning, street-breaking, club-carrying protests against the outrage committed against women in the name of tradition and tribal code.

 

Where were the likes of you when a group of girls were buried alive in Balochistan to which the MP from the area said "it's our tradition to punish the elopers." Who, liberals or so called religious, highlighted her cause and that of the hundreds others who are victim to barbaric tribal codes?

 

On the contrary, tribalism gets lease of life by the conformist traditionalism of the very "religious people" who claim to have all the answers to all the world's problems.

 

I don't like hypocrisy.

 

 

I dont know who this marbles guy is, but there is some real life experiences coming out through these words. This is reality.

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