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In the Name of God بسم الله
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yonus

The Old Atheists

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Hi ,

 

The old atheists who said in quraan :

 

 

( وقالوا ما هي إلا حياتنا الدنيا نموت ونحيا وما يهلكنا إلا الدهر وما لهم بذلك من علم إن هم إلا يظنون ( 24 )

 

[Pickthal 45:24] And they say: There is naught but our life of the world; we die and we live, and naught destroyeth us save time; when they have no knowledge whatsoever of (all) that; they do but guess.

 

Quran said : they have no knoledge , they do but guess .

 

How do you think about what they said ?

 

If those prior centuries have no knowledge , Do current scientests of today have knowledge in this issue ?

 

 

 

 

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Having a perfect knowledge in natural  physical issues is not enough to talk about metaphysics including the day of judgement and that's why they are accused of loss of knowledge in quran. Studying nature has special tools which are useless for studying a metaphysical matter there for they have nothing by which they can study a metaphysical matter so they are not able to prove it nor deny it and whatever judgment would be based on guessing  

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The old atheist are same than modern atheist, but modern atheist arguments are more complex but have same conclusion. The Knowledge speaking in Qur'an refer as a Light that gives guidance. 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Thanx for both friends

 

Yes but modern atheists are standing on Darwin Theory .. the theory which is built on knowledge >

 

It disagree what religion says about creating Adam and Eve >> and when  God put them both in Eden or Jannah >>

 

Darwin theory says man is not seperated from other creaturs and all are from one cell ...

 

If what darwin theory said is true about this (disagreement with religion ) , then why it is not true about  day after or judgement day ?

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Thanx for both friends

 

Yes but modern atheists are standing on Darwin Theory .. the theory which is built on knowledge >

 

It disagree what religion says about creating Adam and Eve >> and when  God put them both in Eden or Jannah >>

 

Darwin theory says man is not seperated from other creaturs and all are from one cell ...

 

You are going to hear people in this forum who quite loudly state that natural selection and mutation can't produce the diversity of life that we see today. Therefore, God created "kinds" of animals that can undergo micro-evolution but not macro-evolution. I happen to disagree and think the universe is odder than we imagine, or can imagine. 

 

Just because these modern atheists feel "intellectually fulfilled" because evolution is, to them, an irrefutable fact doesn't mean that you can't believe in God and also accept evolution. People do it all the time. And in any case, evolution being true or untrue does not refute God's existence in Islam. 

Sure, neo-darwinists say we came from one cell, but Islamic traditions of Adam and Eve can be slightly adjusted, such that the fossil apes or neanderthals, homo erectus etc can be "pre-Adam" and Homo Sapiens can represent when human bodies gained a soul (ie in Adam's time). Read some articles and watch some videos about Shia Islam and evolution, I know Hassanain Rajabali is a molecular biologist and knows quite a lot about evolution. He has made some good videos on the topic.

 

So in summary, don't let current science prevent you from losing your religion, as Islam has a healthy relationship with Science. 

 

 

 

If what darwin theory said is true about this (disagreement with religion ) , then why it is not true about  day after or judgement day ?

 

I don't understand the question. Can you re-phrase it?

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You are going to hear people in this forum who quite loudly state that natural selection and mutation can't produce the diversity of life that we see today. Therefore, God created "kinds" of animals that can undergo micro-evolution but not macro-evolution. I happen to disagree and think the universe is odder than we imagine, or can imagine. 

 

Just because these modern atheists feel "intellectually fulfilled" because evolution is, to them, an irrefutable fact doesn't mean that you can't believe in God and also accept evolution. People do it all the time. And in any case, evolution being true or untrue does not refute God's existence in Islam. 

Sure, neo-darwinists say we came from one cell, but Islamic traditions of Adam and Eve can be slightly adjusted, such that the fossil apes or neanderthals, homo erectus etc can be "pre-Adam" and Homo Sapiens can represent when human bodies gained a soul (ie in Adam's time). Read some articles and watch some videos about Shia Islam and evolution, I know Hassanain Rajabali is a molecular biologist and knows quite a lot about evolution. He has made some good videos on the topic.

 

So in summary, don't let current science prevent you from losing your religion, as Islam has a healthy relationship with Science. 

 

 

I don't understand the question. Can you re-phrase it?

O have heard Imam Ali (a.s) say that before our "Prophet Adam (a.s)", there were thousands of Adams before. I believe, Imam Ali (a.s) is trying to say that Prophet Adam (a.s) may be the first proper and complete human being, with a soul and intellect.

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O have heard Imam Ali (a.s) say that before our "Prophet Adam (a.s)", there were thousands of Adams before. I believe, Imam Ali (a.s) is trying to say that Prophet Adam (a.s) may be the first proper and complete human being, with a soul and intellect.

 

I believe it was Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s.)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

You are going to hear people in this forum who quite loudly state that natural selection and mutation can't produce the diversity of life that we see today. Therefore, God created "kinds" of animals that can undergo micro-evolution but not macro-evolution. I happen to disagree and think the universe is odder than we imagine, or can imagine. 

 

God did not just create subatomic particles.  He created each and every thing (including species).  And He created all of them from eternity.  This is essential belief for any Muslim:  "The measuring out of all things from eternity (God has already written everything from beginning to end)".
 

 

Just because these modern atheists feel "intellectually fulfilled" because evolution is, to them, an irrefutable fact doesn't mean that you can't believe in God and also accept evolution. People do it all the time. 

 

 

These modern atheists which you called "bastions of reason, men of acuity etc etc" are indeed so (even if they be unwise and without faith).  They have taken evolution to its logical conclusion! Don't doubt their intellectual capabilities (they know what they are talking about!)!  Their only problem is that they don't have faith.  So they constructed for themselves a coherent system (even if it is built on the wrong principles and the wrong foundation) to support their faithlessness and secular worldview.  The naive believer takes only half of the secular system (out of indoctrination) without understanding how incompatible it is with the intellectual postulates that his faith demands.      

 

 

 

And in any case, evolution being true or untrue does not refute God's existence in Islam. 

 

Affirming evolution and knowing its full consequences heavily impinges upon one's understanding of the nature of God.  

 

Sure, neo-darwinists say we came from one cell, but Islamic traditions of Adam and Eve can be slightly adjusted, such that the fossil apes or neanderthals, homo erectus etc can be "pre-Adam" and Homo Sapiens can represent when human bodies gained a soul (ie in Adam's time).

Merely saying a fish came from a non-fish, is a negation of God's eternal knowledge of a fish! 

 

 

Read some articles and watch some videos about Shia Islam and evolution, I know Hassanain Rajabali is a molecular biologist and knows quite a lot about evolution. He has made some good videos on the topic.

 

 

I know Hassanain Rajabali as well.  I used to sit in his classes when I was much younger.  And he used to ridicule those who believed in evolution.  And this was still long after he got his degree in molecular biology!.  Now it seems he is trying to play safe (for what?  Allahu Alam).   The dogma and indoctrination of evolution is so heavily entrenched in peoples' minds that if any intellectual speaks out against it he would immediately be regarded as an idiot!      

 

So in summary, don't let current science prevent you from losing your religion, as Islam has a healthy relationship with Science. 

 

Islam has a healthy relationship with hard science, but not with the pseudo-scientific dogma of scientism.

 

Please take care

Ma'salama

 

Ethereal

Edited by eThErEaL

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Hi ,

 

The old atheists who said in quraan :

 

 

( وقالوا ما هي إلا حياتنا الدنيا نموت ونحيا وما يهلكنا إلا الدهر وما لهم بذلك من علم إن هم إلا يظنون ( 24 )

 

[Pickthal 45:24] And they say: There is naught but our life of the world; we die and we live, and naught destroyeth us save time; when they have no knowledge whatsoever of (all) that; they do but guess.

 

Quran said : they have no knoledge , they do but guess .

 

How do you think about what they said ?

 

If those prior centuries have no knowledge , Do current scientests of today have knowledge in this issue ?

That verse you quoted is beautifully accurate!  Today's atheists say exactly what that verse says!  "Time" is the magical factor that is supposed to somehow transform one species into another.  The unidirectional flow of time has come to replace the Omnipresence of Eternity!

Edited by eThErEaL

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Hi ,

 

The old atheists who said in quraan :

 

 

( وقالوا ما هي إلا حياتنا الدنيا نموت ونحيا وما يهلكنا إلا الدهر وما لهم بذلك من علم إن هم إلا يظنون ( 24 )

 

[Pickthal 45:24] And they say: There is naught but our life of the world; we die and we live, and naught destroyeth us save time; when they have no knowledge whatsoever of (all) that; they do but guess.

 

Quran said : they have no knoledge , they do but guess .

 

How do you think about what they said ?

 

If those prior centuries have no knowledge , Do current scientests of today have knowledge in this issue ?

Science does not make ruling or determinations of truth on matters of religion. As you say, it is true evolution is a well established fact, this does not cancel out religion. The Catholic Church (the largest religions organisation in the world) accepts the truth of evolution but they are still obviously highly religious. The scientific method can only apply to things that are falsifiable (things that are capable of being proven false); we can prove it false that Drug X cures cancer (proving it false would mean it DOES NOT cure cancer), we cannot prove something does not exist, that is impossible, prove to me that Shiva or Vishnu do not exist, it would be very hard. Since the idea of God (and religion to a great extent) is not falsifiable, science cannot determine whether it is true or not. 

That said, religion is not a scientific endevour either. According to scientific method, you cant prove God exists (or disprove any other God exists). Hardly anyone lives their entire life by the scientific method though. On a point of interest, surveys have shown that a majority of scientists do not believe in God. 

Philosophy, logic and other fields are open to debate whether or not God exists. 

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Science does not make ruling or determinations of truth on matters of religion. As you say, it is true evolution is a well established fact, this does not cancel out religion. The Catholic Church (the largest religions organisation in the world) accepts the truth of evolution but they are still obviously highly religious. The scientific method can only apply to things that are falsifiable (things that are capable of being proven false); we can prove it false that Drug X cures cancer (proving it false would mean it DOES NOT cure cancer), we cannot prove something does not exist, that is impossible, prove to me that Shiva or Vishnu do not exist, it would be very hard. Since the idea of God (and religion to a great extent) is not falsifiable, science cannot determine whether it is true or not.

That said, religion is not a scientific endevour either. According to scientific method, you cant prove God exists (or disprove any other God exists). Hardly anyone lives their entire life by the scientific method though. On a point of interest, surveys have shown that a majority of scientists do not believe in God.

Philosophy, logic and other fields are open to debate whether or not God exists.

Modern science is (practically) another kind of religion (a pseudo-religion). It does not ONLY deal with hard scientific facts or with observation and experimentation. If it only dealt with that then your point may have some kind of validity. Modern science bases majority of its so called established scientific "theories" on abductive reasoning. This is not to say that abductive reasoning is not valid. It is indeed a valid method. It's validity however is conditioned on not losing sight of its inherent limits and on not falling into the temptation of absolutizing it's "stories" which seem to best explain certain observations. This is why modern science is a religious sort of paradigm basing itself on stories which are for all intents and purposes, nothing more than myths. The difference between a genuine religion and a pseudo religion (like Modern Science) is that while a religion believes in myths which are supposed to be divine, a pseudo religion invents it's own myths. So the word myth is not inherently negative as you can now see.

And the Vatican does not represent the Church nor the Fathers like St. Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. There are Catholic Priests who condemn evolution and have written books on how evolution is a superstition.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Metaphysics-Evolution-Chad-Ripperger/dp/3848216256

Edited by eThErEaL

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