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solitair

How To Answere Violence / Terrorist Accusations ?

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I am having a hard time selecting the best way to answer someone that is thinking that Muslims are practicing a violent religion. I have tried many different approaches to this, but can not come up with the a clear and solid strategy. Quoting scriptures is not effective because most people can not follow due to lack of knowledge. Some have heard of some scriptures that talk about violence, but discussing these scriptures are usually a waste of time for some reason.

 

I have been using scriptures from the Qur'an that explains how a Muslim can not be violent and so on, but I am starting to think that fatwas and speeches by educated Muslims, Ayatollah, and so on... that explains this - is much better to use. Maybe prepare some website links and so on.

 

The reason is that people seem to think that so many Muslims interpret the Qur'an in a violent way - regardless of what scriptures i show them.

 

When i explain that the Qur'an don't allow violence, people just say that it does not matter, as they are convinced that Muslims ignore those parts, to focus on other parts they can use to execute violence.

 

Anybody have some input ?

Edited by solitair

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What I'd suggest is, ask them a very simple question. "You know me? Know that I have a family who are Muslims? Know other Muslims in our school/workplace? See any swords hanging about, with your names written on them?"

 

Just leave it at that and, if the person really wants to understand and isn't just blinded by his bias against Muslim, he'll understand. All you need to do is point out how the majority of Muslims don't really resort to violence, how, in fact, the numbers of Muslims killed by al-Qaeda and their affiliates is much greater than any non-Muslims they may have killed. Just point to Pakistan and the sorry state of Shias there.

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What I'd suggest is, ask them a very simple question. "You know me? Know that I have a family who are Muslims? Know other Muslims in our school/workplace? See any swords hanging about, with your names written on them?"

 

Just leave it at that and, if the person really wants to understand and isn't just blinded by his bias against Muslim, he'll understand. All you need to do is point out how the majority of Muslims don't really resort to violence, how, in fact, the numbers of Muslims killed by al-Qaeda and their affiliates is much greater than any non-Muslims they may have killed. Just point to Pakistan and the sorry state of Shias there.

 

This still begs the question of why a small subset of people who claim to be Muslims resort to violence, even killing other Muslims in the name of Islam.

 

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This still begs the question of why a small subset of people who claim to be Muslims resort to violence, even killing other Muslims in the name of Islam.

 

 

Why did the KKK exist? Some people are crazy or they use different things for their own advantage and manipulate people into doing what they want.

Show me one religion or social group where zealots don't exist.

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1. Muslims did not invent suicide bombing, the Japanese did. See Kamikaze / World War 2

2. What about Christian terrorist groups ? Irish Republican Army, Lord's Resistance Army, ku klux klan etc.

3. Violence in the name of Jesus ? That guy in Norway who slaughtered all those people

4. Guerilla warfare first practiced against U.S. by non-Muslim Vietnamese or you could say by the Native Americans

5. We are bombing Muslims from the sky by drone

6. What about the genocide of Muslims by the Christian Serbs in the former Yugoslavia during the 1990s ?

7. Tamil Tigers are not Muslim nor is the Shining Path or any number of other terrorist organizations INCLUDING the Japanese one that gassed that train full of people in 1995 injuring 5,000 people

8. Jonestown and Waco were done by Christians as was the Oklahoma City bombing

9. Largest Muslim  country on Earth , Indonesia, has not terrorism . MOST Muslim countries have no terrorism

10. Over 1 BILLION Muslims on earth but terrorists number only only a few thousand meaning less than one out of every MILLION Muslims is a terrorist

11. How would you feel if a foreign power took over YOUR country with tanks and bombs ?

 

Start with those points. If they still aren't listening then they simply watch too much FOXNews.

 

May Allah guide us all

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I want to refer to some website or some written documentation - from Ayatollah .... somebody, people consider to be "leaders". it seems like no mater what i say, they think that i am one of the exceptions, but the main group - lead by the real crazy leader of Muslims - is the real danger. It is like I am just a an exception, i show them some of my friends, and now they also become exception, but ohhh... all the rest out there somewhere, now they are still really bad, ready to drop a bomb at any minute...

 

Anybody know some website - some online source that can be used for this purpose ?

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Leader ? What leader ? Who is the leader of all Muslims ?

Don't say the 12th Imam because they don't believe he exists and Sunnis, Zaydis  Ismailis etc. don't either. So who is it that they are claiming is the leader of all Muslims ?

Anyway don't waste your time. If they don't believe you then they just don't want to. You can't change everybody's mind

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Leader ? What leader ? Who is the leader of all Muslims ?

Don't say the 12th Imam because they don't believe he exists and Sunnis, Zaydis  Ismailis etc. don't either. So who is it that they are claiming is the leader of all Muslims ?

Anyway don't waste your time. If they don't believe you then they just don't want to. You can't change everybody's mind

 

Well, i still want to try...

 

I am not expecting people to convert to Islam, I am just expecting people to see some simple facts. Something that has nothing to do with faith, just simple scientific fats, like - Muslims does not actually want to kill everybody that is not a Muslim.... Muslims are actually not trying to enslave the entire world... Muslims are actually not trying to suicide bomb everybody to get some virgins in heaven or what ever...

 

Islam is not brainwash - to control and what ever...

 

Just some simple facts - it is not like I am having some extreme agenda here. So many people I talk to are genuinely scared. So many people have heard so many crazy things from someone that knows someone etc. and it is just hate hate hate now... for no reason at all actually.

 

I have some friends that are Catholics, and every time our conversation comes near something that has to do with a Muslim their face changes... they tell me i have to be careful etc. This is not something that came out of nothing. There are people out there that are really trying to create lies, that are really trying to fuel hate ...

 

It is very upsetting for me, so i really want to increase my ability to explain - and to remove speculations...

 

The thing is that in Christian communities, there are so many lies... i am shocked to find out how easy they tell a lie. They pretend to see the light, to be touched by Jesus or what ever, just to convince someone. Then they pretend like Muslims are bad people, just to convince someone. It makes me very upset - almost on a daily basis. I want to shut them up ! But it is so hard.

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1. Muslims did not invent suicide bombing, the Japanese did. See Kamikaze / World War 2

2. What about Christian terrorist groups ? Irish Republican Army, Lord's Resistance Army, ku klux klan etc.

3. Violence in the name of Jesus ? That guy in Norway who slaughtered all those people

4. Guerilla warfare first practiced against U.S. by non-Muslim Vietnamese or you could say by the Native Americans

5. We are bombing Muslims from the sky by drone

6. What about the genocide of Muslims by the Christian Serbs in the former Yugoslavia during the 1990s ?

7. Tamil Tigers are not Muslim nor is the Shining Path or any number of other terrorist organizations INCLUDING the Japanese one that gassed that train full of people in 1995 injuring 5,000 people

8. Jonestown and Waco were done by Christians as was the Oklahoma City bombing

9. Largest Muslim  country on Earth , Indonesia, has not terrorism . MOST Muslim countries have no terrorism

10. Over 1 BILLION Muslims on earth but terrorists number only only a few thousand meaning less than one out of every MILLION Muslims is a terrorist

11. How would you feel if a foreign power took over YOUR country with tanks and bombs ?

 

Start with those points. If they still aren't listening then they simply watch too much FOXNews.

 

May Allah guide us all

 

It is actually very interesting to look at the Norwegian man who killed lots of children and your adults after he blew up a governemnt building in the city. Everybody in the country was waiting for the news to tell them that it was Muslims extremist that did it, and they were completely shocked to learn that it was a psycho Norwegian man.... After this happened, it became mush better to be a Muslim in Norway, and the country became religion/color blind for a while.

 

It is also interesting to look at the suicide bombing by Japanese pilots during the war. It seems like a better explanation for this is the cultural background, because the similarity between the Japanese religion and the religion of others that are able to do this, is close to none existing - and does not seem to be able to explain any of it. No Japanese soldier would run his plane in to a building to get some virgins in the afterlife. It was about his family, honor etc.

 

The statistics is also interesting, i wonder if it is possible to set this up in a more effective way. Compare with something... Like how many Germans killed people during the last 100 years ? Many Nazi soldiers - the total number of executed people are 9 million or what ever, so comparing to Muslims terrorists, the percentage should be close to nothing.

 

Does anybody have some ideas / suggestions on statistics to use for this purpose ?

 

I already used Malaysia - because the police don't carry firearms, but it backfired where the person i talked to said that the reason is that people in Malaysia is almost enslaved. What ever that means... Often when i show a positive side, they tell me that the positive is accomplished by using very bad methods... so the positive becomes a negative.... No wonder why people don't steal, it is because crazy Muslims cut the hands and arms of people. It is horrible to cut someone arm of just because he is trying to find food for his starving baby... and so on.

 

Are there some statistics to show / count up all terror acts, to see how few of them were actually committed by  Muslims ? It seems like there are so many more terror acts committed by not Muslims, compared to the few that are committed by Muslims. Anybody have some numbers on this ?

Edited by solitair

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Tell them that there are over a billion and a half Muslims out there. If every Muslim believed that the the infidels must die, then there would be no one left on the planet but Muslims.

Tell them that only that these thousands of people killing others in middle east and other places are only a minority compared to that 1,500,000,000 people.

 

You can prove to them how much the Islamic society has been hurt from the same minority, even more than the non-Muslims. For that, you can use the message of Ayatollah Khamenei for Hajj here:

http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1831&Itemid=16

You can skip to the 9th to 11th paragraph.

 

And be careful to distinguish between defense in cases of Hamas and Hizbullah and extremism in case of Al-Qaeda.

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And be careful to distinguish between defense in cases of Hamas and Hizbullah and extremism in case of Al-Qaeda.

Hezbollah, yes. But Hamas? They shoot rockets at civilian targets even after their enemy says enough and backs out. That isn't defense, that is terrorism. Hezbollah only attacks when they are attacked first. And Hezbollah distinguishes between civilians and combatants whereas Hamas does not.

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Hezbollah, yes. But Hamas? They shoot rockets at civilian targets even after their enemy says enough and backs out. That isn't defense, that is terrorism. Hezbollah only attacks when they are attacked first. And Hezbollah distinguishes between civilians and combatants whereas Hamas does not.

 

The difference between Hamas and Hezbullah is that Hizbullah is located in a country that is sometimes under attack and needs to be defended. But Hamas is in a country which is invaded and is being invaded. There are a lot of Israeli cities that are made inside the Palestinian territory just to push the borders back.

And most of the time the one breaking the cease of fire is Israel. 

Israel attacks and bombards cities on a daily basis, with heavy bombs, and they destroy the houses and farms of Palestinians for no reason.

They attack mosques and disrespect Qurans and Muslims.

 

So when they get a rocket or two from time to time, it's much less than what they deserve, especially when you look that they are living in someone else's country. None of those people belong there, and all of them are invaders, period.

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Hezbollah, yes. But Hamas? They shoot rockets at civilian targets even after their enemy says enough and backs out. That isn't defense, that is terrorism. Hezbollah only attacks when they are attacked first. And Hezbollah distinguishes between civilians and combatants whereas Hamas does not.

Hamas does not have accurate missiles. That's why most of the time they don't hit any targets. They also don't have long range, so they must fight somehow, and usually they can only shoot at civilian targets. It really isn't their fault, how else are they supposed to fight?

 

Hamas is really in bad shape lately. They have no cash to pay their employees, and Egypt banned Hamas totally and is destroying their tunnels to Gaza. Well, that's what they get for fighting Syria and not respecting Iran's aid and help. 

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You need to understand brother that this topic (peace and violence ) was not a matter of philosophy or morality through out the Islamic history. It is modern  issue and is often written in defense of Islam. Truth is , Islamic is realistic religion, islam dose not demand from its followers to be pacifists nor aggressors. We do have a set of rules and laws that govern our call for war. We do as well have set of rules that govern our interactions with muslims and non muslims . They both stem from common ground :Justice. Justice is to place things in their rightful place, it is not to equate a butcher with a victim, it is not to burden people with what they cannot handle and it is not to expect the impossible.

Islam realize that human societies will always have conflict amongst themselves, even between the muslim societies. First, muslims should seek to clarify the situation and solve the issue with diplomacy, Islam allows even paying money to some party if that shall stop war. Secondly,muslim should be prepared for war. The preparation itself should act as psychological factor in avoiding war. Aggressors wouldn't like to get into war with well prepared nation, they have predatory mentality and they prefer weak victims. You can relate to USA modern wars to see that. Thirdly, Muslims should defend their souls, their lands, their families and their freedom of warship. A muslim is allowed and premised to fight in defense , a muslim is not expected to start aggression . You can relate to Karbala, Imam Husain did not start fighting the other army until the other army started showering Imam Husain with arrows.

What is not easy to understand for western modern christian is the relation between religion and state affairs. I think you got comfortable with the idea that religion is spiritual exercise only. Also, current usage of jihad in media and Islamist militants made it even more abhorrent to think of religion and state being merged together.

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The reason is that people seem to think that so many Muslims interpret the Qur'an in a violent way - regardless of what scriptures i show them.

 

When i explain that the Qur'an don't allow violence, people just say that it does not matter, as they are convinced that Muslims ignore those parts, to focus on other parts they can use to execute violence.

 

This is correct. Islam is not a monolith. Muslims don't think and act alike. There are some interpretations of Islamic scriptures which are intolerant, violent - let's say fascistic - and everything about them is difficult to defend or explain away.

 

Islam is what its followers make it out to be. Peaceful Muslims, with reference to the particular sect they follow or without it, should propagate their own interpretations of Islam in the light of what they think is right, and reject those interpretations which fan violence and hatred. That's all we can do.

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This is truly a very enlightening conversation. I want to say thank you to all :-)

 

It seems like the true difficulty for non Muslims to accept, is that Muslims don't want a man made law, but a God made law for their country and state.

 

The same problems in a Muslim society can be found in an American society  - but it becomes impossible to see and understand it, because total chaos breaks out in peoples head when they consider that religion is running the state.

 

This is why i say that Islam seem to be the only religion where people actually believe... Christians say they believe, but to follow their religion - by implementing it in the government as a law, is to big a step... so clearly they don't believe it enough to follow it...

 

very interesting !!

 

I read the term "none believers" or something similar. This clearly defines who they are :-) 

Edited by solitair

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(bismillah)

 

   (salam)

 

This is truly a very enlightening conversation. I want to say thank you to all :-)

 

It seems like the true difficulty for non Muslims to accept, is that Muslims don't want a man made law, but a God made law for their country and state.

 

The same problems in a Muslim society can be found in an American society  - but it becomes impossible to see and understand it, because total chaos breaks out in peoples head when they consider that religion is running the state.

 

This is why i say that Islam seem to be the only religion where people actually believe... Christians say they believe, but to follow their religion - by implementing it in the government as a law, is to big a step... so clearly they don't believe it enough to follow it...

 

very interesting !!

 

I read the term "none believers" or something similar. This clearly defines who they are :-) 

 

Just because a number of Christians want a separation between the Church and the State, it doesn't automatically translate to them having less belief than we do. It depends on what the specific beliefs are. In Islam, the Prophet had the control of the government and early on in the history of Islam, the government was always, somehow, linked to religion. In the case of Christianity, however, Jesus never had the sort of political authority that the Prophet had and it wasn't years and years after his death that Christianity was accepted as the state religion. So, as far as Christians are concerned, government is not really a fundamental part of their religion. Take another example: if, hypothetically, a religion existed (and I am sure such religions do exist) which stresses that the religion is separate from the state and should be solely focused on spiritual matters, leaving politics aside, if the followers of such a religion don't want their clergy to rule, it's not because they have weak faith - in fact, they are quite staunch in their beliefs. So, since Christian beliefs don't really put as much importance on governance being linked to religion, even if a Christian wishes for a separation between the state and the Church, that doesn't necessarily mean he is weak in his faith.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

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(bismillah)

 

   (salam)

 

 

Just because a number of Christians want a separation between the Church and the State, it doesn't automatically translate to them having less belief than we do. It depends on what the specific beliefs are. In Islam, the Prophet had the control of the government and early on in the history of Islam, the government was always, somehow, linked to religion. In the case of Christianity, however, Jesus never had the sort of political authority that the Prophet had and it wasn't years and years after his death that Christianity was accepted as the state religion. So, as far as Christians are concerned, government is not really a fundamental part of their religion. Take another example: if, hypothetically, a religion existed (and I am sure such religions do exist) which stresses that the religion is separate from the state and should be solely focused on spiritual matters, leaving politics aside, if the followers of such a religion don't want their clergy to rule, it's not because they have weak faith - in fact, they are quite staunch in their beliefs. So, since Christian beliefs don't really put as much importance on governance being linked to religion, even if a Christian wishes for a separation between the state and the Church, that doesn't necessarily mean he is weak in his faith.

 

I appreciate the point you are making.

 

But Christianity - the very religion - does it not say that one should live - and govern the society by the laws of the religion ? And if it does, and as they now, still do not want to do govern their society by the law of their religion... well, i am not sure i can agree.

 

I am not sure it is compatible with the religion to separate it... it seems to me like the religion is commanding them to. I have not studied this at all, so maybe I'm completely wrong here.

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I appreciate the point you are making.

 

But Christianity - the very religion - does it not say that one should live - and govern the society by the laws of the religion ? And if it does, and as they now, still do not want to do govern their society by the law of their religion... well, i am not sure i can agree.

 

I am not sure it is compatible with the religion to separate it... it seems to me like the religion is commanding them to. I have not studied this at all, so maybe I'm completely wrong here.

 

I don't really want to derail your thread but, really, it is quite possible that the government is run by secular - in fact, technically speaking, it is even possible if it's atheists - people, and not the clergy, but the legislation is perfectly within the confines of Christianity. Let's also not forget that while our religion is far more extensive in terms of legal rules, Christianity would seem like it's in the stone age, if their "fiqh" is compared to ours (like I've said before, it depends on what the focus of the religion is). Christianity, as it's practiced today, at least, is much more "spiritual" and doesn't really have too many rules like we do.

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I don't really want to derail your thread but, really, it is quite possible that the government is run by secular - in fact, technically speaking, it is even possible if it's atheists - people, and not the clergy, but the legislation is perfectly within the confines of Christianity. Let's also not forget that while our religion is far more extensive in terms of legal rules, Christianity would seem like it's in the stone age, if their "fiqh" is compared to ours (like I've said before, it depends on what the focus of the religion is). Christianity, as it's practiced today, at least, is much more "spiritual" and doesn't really have too many rules like we do.

 

This is not derailing - because having religion involved in governing the society - seem to be essential for the fear of Islam. It is a fact that isolated incidents like a bomb in one building, or what have you - can not offer any explanation as to why the west is freaking out in panic and hysterical confusion. Look at what has been going on with IRA. This irrational craziness and confusion only rule the west related to Islam.

 

In Norway they had a new government recently, and a large factor to the change is that the new people have been escalating this fear of Islam in to peoples head for years. Finally these people are now running things, not because the population believe in their ability - but because they are afraid of Islam.

 

Many have been trying to debate and explain how Islam is none violent and so on, but to no use. I am starting to believe that the reason why Islam is threatening is because of peoples perception of Christianity and not Islam. People have no idea about Islam, so many have explained this to be caused by fear of the unknown.

 

I believe on the other hand that people know all the horror in Christianity, and therefor consider religion to be irrational and dangerous. In this way they have some definitions of what religion is, and Islam just falls right in to it. Nobody is willing to listen to arguments explaining how Islam is peaceful and so on, because it is a religion - like Christianity where logical rational reasoning (in their opinion) has no room at all.

 

The history is full of crazy man burning young woman of fires, the inquisition and so on. The very though of having this craziness in the governing of the society, is equal to disaster once more.

 

To accept Islam is like embracing the inquisition for most people in the west, because this horror from the past is just not letting go of people. That is why Christianity is the explanation to why there is so much fear of Islam.

 

In the history of Christianity it seems to be equal to horror and disaster every time religious people came to power. Religion is behind some of the most horrible tragedies in history.

 

Peoples perception of Islam is not about Islam at all, and therefor any argument about Islam itself - is just ignored.

 

I found this youtube video where a man offered an explanation to "why we are afraid of Islam". The video was talking about the secrets of Islam that most people don't know about. This man just forgot one important thing, this offers no explanation, because like he said- secrets that nobody know about. If nobody know about it, how can it be peoples reason for fear. But the video got me to think. People know about the Christianity side of the past, inquisition and so forth, so Islam becomes just another name for the same madness to people in the west, because it is a religion.

 

To the west, Christianity is something they have fought to get rid of - and now they discover that there is another one of these - in the East, where people live under a religion. When someone blew up the twin towers, it was a horrible reminder to how irrational and horrible religions can be. If the people that did it, was not religions, they would have treated it differently.

 

This war on Islam that we see all around the world today (because it is not a war on terror but on Islam) is fueled by the history of disasters committed by Christians. 

 

It is just not possible for people to believe that it is safe to allow religion play a part in governing the society. Religion is acceptable in the west as long as it is  restricted to a mental exercise, restricted to what people think.

 

My point is that Christianity is reduced to almost nothing. That is why it is acceptable to be a christian in the west, because they no longer do anything. Just think happy thought in their head about Jesus.

 

I think we have to start to realize that the war on Islam - is a war on religion - all religion.

 

There is no freedom in the west to practices your religion. Only to believe in it, as long as you do nothing - and have no ambition to start.

 

I think we have to realize that there is no possibility for Islam to ever be accepted by the west. And I think there is no possibility of making people in the west feel safe - because 1.6 billion people are Muslims - and Islam will not change like Christianity have changed.

 

Christianity is in peace with the west, because it has changed completely - and no longer tries to effect the way people live. But Islam is the way people live, and that is not going to change.

 

 

The world is divided - Islam and the rest. Because Buddhist,  Hindus, atheists and what have you - all can live together in peace, because they all accept the man made governments to be the highest authority in a society.

 

Islam - on the other hand, is the highest authority for Muslims, and always will be. The wold will therefor always be in war with Islam, because Islam refuse to surrender to man, like all other religions have by now.

 

.... i feel like I.m drowning in a hole of sadness now... maybe it will look better tomorrow.

Edited by solitair

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