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Ugly Jinn

Question To Sunnis: Answer This Scenario

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Simple question to Sunnis, please think before you answer, your answer can lead to fundamental problems.

 

You are standing before the start of the Battle of Camel, you haven't decided which side to be on.

 

Ali comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

Ayesha comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

 

You have to pick one side, which side would you pick and why?

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Simple question to Sunnis, please think before you answer, your answer can lead to fundamental problems.

You are standing before the start of the Battle of Camel, you haven't decided which side to be on.

Ali comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

Ayesha comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

You have to pick one side, which side would you pick and why?

Bruv I'm not interested anymore to get into dialogue but I don't see any issues answering this..

I would pick imam ali a.s without a second thought because he was the rightful caliph and the others were rebels....likewise I would support umar if anybody rebelled against him even if the rebel who raised the sword was imam ali himself!!!!!

Personally I don't see the point of this thread as it will only play with the feelings of Muslims and the wars have already taken place. It's time to forget about these issues and unite on wherever we find common ground

Edited by Just the truth

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Bruv I'm not interested anymore to get into dialogue but I don't see any issues answering this..

I would pick imam ali a.s without a second thought because he was the rightful caliph and the others were rebels....likewise I would support umar if anybody rebelled against him even if the rebel who raised the sword was imam ali himself!!!!!

Personally I don't see the point of this thread as it will only play with the feelings of Muslims and the wars have already taken place. It's time to forget about these issues and unite on wherever we find common ground

 

I know this has been discussed many times, but I have a different take on this issue.

 

The reason is that if you pick Imam Ali in battle, then Ayesha becomes your enemy? Yes/No?

 

If yes, Ayesha was in the wrong, an enemy of the caliph, enemy against the rules which were placed by the first 3 caliphs, hence she went against the first 3 caliphs in principle. Not only that, she made this wrongful decision after being the wife of the Prophet, learnt from the Prophet, being a Muslim for decades, hence does she not lose credibility? Yes/No?

 

There are 2 Yes/No questions, if you can answer that will be great. I'm not here to insult Ayesha, that's not my intent, never have, never will. There is a bigger picture I'm actually discussing using this event as an argument.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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If people allow themselves to admit the problems that arise from the Quran and ahadith regarding Aisha's character/judgement it would mean she would no longer be considered a reliable narrator for hadith and seeing as see narrates such a substantial proportion of Sunni ahadith this would be obviously problematic. So the only option when it comes to characters like Umar and Aisha seems to be to live with a load of cognitive dissonance and say Allahu alam.

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I am not a Sunni.

 

If such a battle were to occur, I would [apart from abstaining entirely as would be my most likely decision] take the side of Ali.  Ayesha was clearly in error for fighting the Caliph of her time.  Likewise, I [just as Hassan and Hussein did] would have taken the side of Uthman when Ayesha rebelled against him. 

 

So yes, Ayesha was in error and was an enemy to the Caliphate.  I have heard Sunnis saying that she repented later in life.  I have heard Shi'ites say that she could not have repented or that it would not have been accepted from her.

 

God knows best.

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We have the benefit of hindsight and we are much more aware of both sides than they were aware of each other's motives and intentions at that point of Fitna. Being someone living in that time, the side you choose would be dependent on many factors such as your relation to Uthman, your relation to Ali, your relation to Aisha, etc.If I am to be sent back in time somehow, I would simply stay away from the Fitna.  

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We have the benefit of hindsight and we are much more aware of both sides than they were aware of each other's motives and intentions at that point of Fitna. Being someone living in that time, the side you choose would be dependent on many factors such as your relation to Uthman, your relation to Ali, your relation to Aisha, etc.If I am to be sent back in time somehow, I would simply stay away from the Fitna.  

 

So you would dissociate yourself from Batil which is understandable, but why Haq ?

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Simple question to Sunnis, please think before you answer, your answer can lead to fundamental problems.

 

 

(bismillah)

(salam) Brother. 

 

Good to see a topic opened by you after long time. I have always liked your interesting posts. 

 

For the read part I highlighted, from your post, I say: Not at all. 

 

 

 

You are standing before the start of the Battle of Camel, you haven't decided which side to be on.

 

Ali comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

Ayesha comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

 

You have to pick one side, which side would you pick and why?

 

 

First it should be clear that we, Ahlussunah, believe that Ali's side was the right side. 

 

As for the Question whose side to pick. Then answer is the words of the Messenger of Allah (saw) and actions of the Majority of Companions.

 

Know brother that the absolute majority of the Companions (95%+) did not take part in these battles and didn't pick any side. Do you know why? Because they considered these battles to be Fitna so they totally abstained from it. 

 

Let me show you some Sahih narrations of the Prophet (saw) who warned his companions about the Fitna:

 

عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ أَنَّهُ قَالَ: " فِي الْفِتْنَةِ كَسِّرُوا فِيهَا قِسِيَّكُمْ، وَقَطِّعُوا فِيهَا أَوْتَارَكُمْ، وَالْزَمُوا فِيهَا أَجْوَافَ بُيُوتِكُمْ، وَكُونُوا كَابْنِ آدَمَ

 

Abu Musa narrates it, he says that the Prophet (saw) told him: "During the Fitnah, break your bows and cut their strings, and stay inside your houses".

 

Another authentic narration:

 

 إِنَّ ابْنَ عَمِّكَ يَعْنِي: النَّبِيَّ عَهِدَ إِلَيَّ إِذَا كَانَتْ فِتْنَةٌ بَيْنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ أَنْ أَتَّخِذَ سَيْفًا مِنْ خَشَبٍ "، فَوَلَّى عَلِيٌّ غَضْبَانَ، وَقَالَ: لَيْسَ لَنَا فِيكَ حَاجَةٌ، وَلا فِي سَيْفِكَ

 

Abu Muslim al-Ghafari tells Ali, that "Your cousin, the Prophet (saw), made me give him an oath, that if the Fitnah happens I would only carry a wooden sword."

 

Another narration: 

 

Muhammad bin Maslamah al-Ansari says during the Fitnah, that the Prophet (saw) told him: "There shall be a Fitnah and division and conflict, when this happens, go to mount Uhud with your sword, and smash it against the rocks, then break your spear heads, and cut your bow's string and sit at home."

 
 
So the Question to you is would you pick sides or do what the Prophet (saw) ordered and what the majority of Companions did?

 

I am not a Sunni.

 

If such a battle were to occur, I would [apart from abstaining entirely as would be my most likely decision] take the side of Ali.  Ayesha was clearly in error for fighting the Caliph of her time.  Likewise, I [just as Hassan and Hussein did] would have taken the side of Uthman when Ayesha rebelled against him. 

 

So yes, Ayesha was in error and was an enemy to the Caliphate.  I have heard Sunnis saying that she repented later in life.  I have heard Shi'ites say that she could not have repented or that it would not have been accepted from her.

 

God knows best.

 

 

 

We have the benefit of hindsight and we are much more aware of both sides than they were aware of each other's motives and intentions at that point of Fitna. Being someone living in that time, the side you choose would be dependent on many factors such as your relation to Uthman, your relation to Ali, your relation to Aisha, etc.If I am to be sent back in time somehow, I would simply stay away from the Fitna.  

 

(salam)

Excellent posts. 

 

This is exactly what the absolute majority of the Companions of the Prophet (saw) did. They didn't take sides because they considered it a Fitna. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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So the Question to you is would you pick sides or do what the Prophet (saw) ordered and what the majority of Companions did?

 

Based on your argument, both Ali and Ayesha disobeyed the Prophet by involving themselves in fitna via swords. Yes/No?

 

Regardless, this is about credibility as narrators, Ruq beat me to the punch. If you admit Ayesha was in the error, went against the caliph, went against the system first 3 put in place, etc., then how can you accept her previous narrations as credible?

 

I have heard Shi'ites say that she could not have repented or that it would not have been accepted from her.

 

If she repents and is forgiven then that's fine. The real issue is her credibility of her narrations. The whole point of the thread is that if she was in error, went against the caliph (which is considered haram in principle), many died because of it, and many more things (you get the picture), then how can any of her prior narrations be accepted as credible? 

 

We have the benefit of hindsight and we are much more aware of both sides than they were aware of each other's motives and intentions at that point of Fitna. Being someone living in that time, the side you choose would be dependent on many factors such as your relation to Uthman, your relation to Ali, your relation to Aisha, etc.If I am to be sent back in time somehow, I would simply stay away from the Fitna.  

 

Everything is hindsight, the whole sunnah that exists today is hindsight.

 

Determining which narrators are credible or not are dependent on hindsight. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Based on your argument, both Ali and Ayesha disobeyed the Prophet by involving themselves in fitna via swords. Yes/No?

Regardless, this is about credibility as narrators, Ruq beat me to the punch. If you admit Ayesha was in the error, went against the caliph, went against the system first 3 put in place, etc., then how can you accept her previous narrations as credible?

If she repents and is forgiven then that's fine. The real issue is her credibility of her narrations. The whole point of the thread is that if she was in error, went against the caliph (which is considered haram in principle), many died because of it, and many more things (you get the picture), then how can any of her prior narrations be accepted as credible?

Everything is hindsight, the whole sunnah that exists today is hindsight.

Determining which narrators are credible or not are dependent on hindsight.

Brother ugly jinn you can't condemn somebody if they make a mistake by saying all their previous actions are nulled and are a pack of lies....hadith science doesn't work like that.

Anyway I hope you opened this thread so the ultimate goal can be to some how find common ground between sunni and shia

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Simple question to Sunnis, please think before you answer, your answer can lead to fundamental problems.

You are standing before the start of the Battle of Camel, you haven't decided which side to be on.

Ali comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

Ayesha comes to you and says "Fight for me, I'm on the side of truth".

You have to pick one side, which side would you pick and why?

Your questions and your mind and the outcome.....what you decide

No need to HALF of the sahaba ra didn't take sides either I would read this Verse to both and then go to Makkah to pray for PEACE to prevail

49.10. The believers are but brothers, so make peace between your brothers; and keep from disobedience to God in reverence for Him and piety (particularly in your duties toward one another as brothers), so that you may be shown mercy (granted a good, virtuous life in the world as individuals and as a community, and eternal happiness in the Hereafter).

So the truth is......DISOBEDIENCE to god!!!

What was battle of camel for??? Martyrdom of Uthman ra......HENCE THE MAJORITY SAHABA RA KEPT WELL AWAY!!!

So a son in law against a wife and at the end they both ACKNOWLEDGE their discrepancies

Ali ra protected Ayesha ra too so it's not a case of this way or that way........hence it's called.......FITNA!!!!

That's my take anyway

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Based on your argument, both Ali and Ayesha disobeyed the Prophet by involving themselves in fitna via swords. Yes/No?

 

Regardless, this is about credibility as narrators, Ruq beat me to the punch. If you admit Ayesha was in the error, went against the caliph, went against the system first 3 put in place, etc., then how can you accept her previous narrations as credible?

 

 

If she repents and is forgiven then that's fine. The real issue is her credibility of her narrations. The whole point of the thread is that if she was in error, went against the caliph (which is considered haram in principle), many died because of it, and many more things (you get the picture), then how can any of her prior narrations be accepted as credible? 

 

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

I understand what you are trying say now. It is about her reliability as a narrator. 

 

Brother, committing an error doesn't make a person unreliable and I am sure you know that we don't consider any of the Companions to be infallible. 

 

She didn't challenge the leadership of Ali or called him illegitimate caliph. She went out with the intention to bring the killers of Uthman to justice. She even wanted to return but Zubayr (ra) and other Muslims requested her not to:

 

مَهْلا يَرْحَمُكِ اللَّهُ، تَقْدَمِينَ فَيَرَاكِ الْمُسْلِمُونَ، فَيُصْلِحُ اللَّهُ بِكِ

When She wanted to return, the Muslims told her: "Wait, may Allah have mercy on you, go forth so that the Muslims may see you then Allah would fix their affair through you. (Sahih Ibn HIbban)

 

She regretted what She did and repented and She was so sad that She didn't even want to be buried next to the Prophet (saw) due to what happened and she asked to be buried in Baqee:

 

أَخْبَرَنَا الْفَضْلُ بْنُ دُكَيْنٍ، حَدَّثَنَا حَسَنُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ، عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، عَنْ قَيْسٍ، قَالَ: قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ عِنْدَ وَفَاتِهَا: " إِنِّي قَدْ أَحْدَثْتُ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ  فَادْفِنُونِي مَعَ أَزْوَاجِ النَّبِيِّ

 

All narrators are Thiqaat.

In Tabaqat ibn Sa`d 8/280 are five narrations in this regard all stating she repented.

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An 'error'? going into battle against one of the rashidun caliphs after youve accepted Islam (and knowing his extremely high station and regard by the Prophet(saw)) and being one of the very few individuals to be referred to in the Quran with chastisement? ...is there anyone else with such a background that would maintain a sahih isnad? (thats a genuine question btw)

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