Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
solitair

All Sects Are Believers ?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

HamzaTR posted in a different thread that all sects under Islam are believers. I think that is difficult to understand, because there seem to be some that are pretty out there on the edge - in my opinion.

 

I can understand the logic, where HamsaTR say: "only believers are allowed to perform pilgrimage. And, never in history have any of islamic sects been forbidden of forbade others from performing it. Only this can tell you what the consensus of Muslims is on this issue. All sects are believers, thus brothers in faith. But some maybe misguided, but it is irrelevant."

 

I just wonder if misguided - is not crossing the line to actually believing in something that is not Islam at some point, for some of these ?

 

I am of course not talking about sunni or similar, im talking about bigger differences in some of the fundamental believes that some of them sects seem to believe in / interperate different, or be misguided to practice - however you define it.

 

I came f.eks. accros some Muslim sects in the Philippines, that seem to practice something that i did not find very familiar with what I understand as true Islam.

 

Are there some fatwas - or something to clarify more on this ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All sects are Muslims (except those that deny central tenets such as prophethood or the afterlife), but believers is the wrong English word to use since it has a specific connotation in Islam.

 

"The bedouin Arabs have said, "We are believers." Tell them, "You are not believers, but you should say that you are Muslims. In fact, belief has not yet entered your hearts. If you obey God and His Messenger, nothing will be reduced from your deeds. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful." (49:14)

 

May Allah (SWT) increase us in belief and strength of conviction. Salam alaikum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can multiple sects have multiple truths? Couldnt Allah create multiple islams and let people pick which they want?

We don't have evidence for that (that God created multiple sects or versions of truth).

 

Most people believe that religion/sects are man made. And when you look at the history of any religious sects, you'll always find that there's always a person, a beginning, ideas and a place when some thoughts are spread in the community.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't have evidence for that (that God created multiple sects or versions of truth).

 

Most people believe that religion/sects are man made. And when you look at the history of any religious sects, you'll always find that there's always a person, a beginning, ideas and a place when some thoughts are spread in the community.

 

What if that person is inspired by God. The Prophet didn't create Islam. He reformed God's religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What if that person is inspired by God. The Prophet didn't create Islam. He reformed God's religion.

I don't reject the bias that exist in every religion. Muslim believes that Islam is divinely inspired by God just like Christians believe in theirs. But what about other religion like Hinduism? I've not heard of a Muslim or Christian saying that these religion are 'inspired' by God. They always claim that their version of the religion is the truth. And that's what I mean when I say that most people believe that most religions are man-made except theirs, of course.

Edited by Gypsy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is a hadeeth in al-kafi

Imam al-Saadiq (as)  said:

Islam is the surface, that people has accepted it, the testimony for tawheed (oneness of God) and the prophethood of prophet Muhammad (pbuh)  and prayer and charity and pilgrimage and fasting in the month of ramadaan, this is Islam, but the (real) belief is understanding of this issue (imamah) plus those I counted, whoever accepts the former and does not accept the latter, is considered a muslim but misguided.

 

 

 الْإِسْلَامُ هُوَ الظَّاهِرُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ النَّاسُ شَهَادَةُ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَحْدَهُ لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ وَ أَنَّ مُحَمَّداً عَبْدُهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ إِقَامُ الصَّلَاةِ وَ إِيتَاءُ الزَّكَاةِ وَ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ‏ وَ صِيَامُ شَهْرِ رَمَضَانَ فَهَذَا الْإِسْلَامُ وَ قَالَ الْإِيمَانُ ُ مَعْرِفَة هَذَا الْأَمْرِ مَعَ هَذَا فَإِنْ أَقَرَّ بِهَا وَ لَمْ يَعْرِفْ هَذَا الْأَمْرَ كَانَ مُسْلِماً وَ كَانَ ضَالًّا.

Edited by mesbah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HamzaTR posted in a different thread that all sects under Islam are believers. I think that is difficult to understand, because there seem to be some that are pretty out there on the edge - in my opinion.

 

I can understand the logic, where HamsaTR say: "only believers are allowed to perform pilgrimage. And, never in history have any of islamic sects been forbidden of forbade others from performing it. Only this can tell you what the consensus of Muslims is on this issue. All sects are believers, thus brothers in faith. But some maybe misguided, but it is irrelevant."

 

I just wonder if misguided - is not crossing the line to actually believing in something that is not Islam at some point, for some of these ?

 

I am of course not talking about sunni or similar, im talking about bigger differences in some of the fundamental believes that some of them sects seem to believe in / interperate different, or be misguided to practice - however you define it.

 

I came f.eks. accros some Muslim sects in the Philippines, that seem to practice something that i did not find very familiar with what I understand as true Islam.

 

Are there some fatwas - or something to clarify more on this ?

 

Salaamun Alaykum,

There is a very important point which shouldn't be neglected, and that is: Islam is not a univocal concept, but rather, it is equivocal. In other words, the word "Islam" has been used in the Quran and ahadith in different meanings and there are several stages for Islam.

 

The first stage of Islam is confirming the tawhid and nubuwwah. It is narrated from Imam as- Sadiq a.s. that:

 

الْإِسْلَامُ شَهَادَةُ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَ التَّصْدِيقُ بِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص بِهِ حُقِنَتِ الدِّمَاءُ وَ عَلَيْهِ جَرَتِ الْمَنَاكِحُ وَ الْمَوَارِيثُ وَ عَلَى ظَاهِرِهِ جَمَاعَةُ النَّاس‏

 

"Islam is to witness that there is no god but Allah and to testify the Messenger of Allah ..." (al-Kafi: 2: 25)

 

So, according to this hadith, whoever states the shahaadatayn is considered to be in the realm of Islam and all of the Islamic laws are applicable to him/ her. But it is obvious that the person in this stage, though being a Muslim, because of believing in the truth, but he/she does not have the qualifications of a real Muslim.

 

After this stage, the more qualifications a person acquires, the higher he/ she is ranked in Islam.

 

Another point is that people in the lower stages of Islam sometimes are referred to as disbelievers (kuffar) but it doesn't mean that they are out of the bounds of Islam, rather it is a relative meaning of kufr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Salaamun Alaykum,

There is a very important point which shouldn't be neglected, and that is: Islam is not a univocal concept, but rather, it is equivocal. In other words, the word "Islam" has been used in the Quran and ahadith in different meanings and there are several stages for Islam.

 

The first stage of Islam is confirming the tawhid and nubuwwah. It is narrated from Imam as- Sadiq a.s. that:

 

الْإِسْلَامُ شَهَادَةُ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَ التَّصْدِيقُ بِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص بِهِ حُقِنَتِ الدِّمَاءُ وَ عَلَيْهِ جَرَتِ الْمَنَاكِحُ وَ الْمَوَارِيثُ وَ عَلَى ظَاهِرِهِ جَمَاعَةُ النَّاس‏

 

"Islam is to witness that there is no god but Allah and to testify the Messenger of Allah ..." (al-Kafi: 2: 25)

 

So, according to this hadith, whoever states the shahaadatayn is considered to be in the realm of Islam and all of the Islamic laws are applicable to him/ her. But it is obvious that the person in this stage, though being a Muslim, because of believing in the truth, but he/she does not have the qualifications of a real Muslim.

 

After this stage, the more qualifications a person acquires, the higher he/ she is ranked in Islam.

 

Another point is that people in the lower stages of Islam sometimes are referred to as disbelievers (kuffar) but it doesn't mean that they are out of the bounds of Islam, rather it is a relative meaning of kufr.

 

 

I don't agree with your use of the word quivocal, but i understand what you said.

 

Nur Misuari - is he a musllim ? If one is to say that he is, what about Habier Malik ?

 

MNLF, is that a sect of believers ?

 

I understand what HamzaTR posted, but I fail for example to see that Nur Misurari as a believer, or that MNLF can be defined as any kind of Islam - but in the Philippines, large groups define this is as Islam.

 

Can anybody help me with this ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nur Misuari - is he a musllim ? If one is to say that he is, what about Habier Malik ?

 

MNLF, is that a sect of believers ?

 

I understand what HamzaTR posted, but I fail for example to see that Nur Misurari as a believer, or that MNLF can be defined as any kind of Islam - but in the Philippines, large groups define this is as Islam.

 

Can anybody help me with this ?

 

According to the hadith I mentioned in my previous post and also the verdicts of the Shiite maraji', whoever states the words of shahaadayn enters the realm of Islam and the Islamic rulings are applicable to them, until they deny the shahaada literally or practically.

 

As far as individuals are concerned, one is not allowed to ascribe kufr to them as long as they claim to be Muslims, unless he/ she is certain, through their words or actions that they don't really believe in Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible and how - an example, of how someone can practically deny / with actions and be excluded in spite of the fact that they verbally uphold it ?

 

In other words, I find their actions to be so contradicting with Islam, that I consider it very hard if not impossible to consider them believers or muslims. Under what circumstance can i say that they are not muslims even they claime to be ? Can you give examples ?

 

Thank you -

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can multiple sects have multiple truths? Couldnt Allah create multiple islams and let people pick which they want?

 

 

 

Salaamun Alaykum,

There is a very important point which shouldn't be neglected, and that is: Islam is not a univocal concept, but rather, it is equivocal. In other words, the word "Islam" has been used in the Quran and ahadith in different meanings and there are several stages for Islam.

 

 

HamzaTR posted in a different thread that all sects under Islam are believers. I think that is difficult to understand, because there seem to be some that are pretty out there on the edge - in my opinion.

 

Are there some fatwas - or something to clarify more on this ?

 

 

Salamun alaykum every body

 

Surely Islam is an unequivocal concept which is surrendering to God but what makes Muslim different is the level of that surrendering. Islam is definitely one but it has several levels which you can call it multiple stages not multiple sects or multiple truths.

 

At the first stage of Islam (surrendering to God) we say Shahādatain as “sadegh” has mentioned the hadith in this regard:

"Islam is to witness that there is no god but Allah and to testify the Messenger of Allah (Mohammad)" (al-Kafi: 2: 25)

 

We have fatwas of marāje that who say اشهد ان لا اله الا الله و اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله is Muslim and the edicts for the first stage of Islam is applicable to him/her:

S/he is not najis

S/he can enter masjid

S/he can marry with another Muslim

After his/her death Muslims should perform prayer for him

And s/he can be buried in Muslim graveyards

Absolutely that person is Muslim due to the first stage of Islam. I think what “HamzaTR” wants to say is that. We call the person who accept (shahādat) that Allah is the only one and Muhammad is His messenger, a Muslim but not a true Mumin.

 

So this stage is absolutely in Islam but Islam is not only this stage. This is just the first level while Islam includes a complete perfect teachings for all parts of our life in this world and in the Hereafter.

 

Mentioning other main parts and teachings of Islam, we can add (as Muslims: shia, sunni and etc.) that we also believe in the hereafter life and the day of judgment and also we believe in same Quran, same haj, prayer, fast, and etc.

 

And finally Shia as the true believers of Islam and as the true followers of Muhammad (pbuh), has evidence for Imāmat mentioning by the prophet. So we believe in the principle of Imāmat which is the deep level and stage of Islam. So a Shia Muslim is the true Mu’min (true believer) while other are also Muslims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

let me rephrase solitair question: (maybe it is my own question but I think I have to ask it here)

 

Bahaa'ees are considered muslaims or not? as far as I know they state the words of shahaadayn but many scholars consider them apostates or at least non-muslims?

 

I think it is not always a matter of different levels of faith.

Edited by mesbah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

let me rephrase solitair question: (maybe it is my own question but I think I have to ask it here)

 

Bahaa'ees are considered muslaims or not? as far as I know they state the words of shahaadayn but many scholars consider them apostates or at least non-muslims?

 

I think it is not always a matter of different levels of faith.

 

For one to be considered a Muslim, there are two primary opinions among Shiite scholars:

Some of them believe that the only condition for one to be called a Muslim is the very literal statement of the words of shahaadatayn.

Others say that in addition to the previous condition, one must not deny any of the certain principles of Islam.

 

I don't think Bahaa'ies state the words of shahaadah. But, even if they do, they deny almost all of the Islamic principles very clearly and plainly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible and how - an example, of how someone can practically deny / with actions and be excluded in spite of the fact that they verbally uphold it ?

 

In other words, I find their actions to be so contradicting with Islam, that I consider it very hard if not impossible to consider them believers or muslims. Under what circumstance can i say that they are not muslims even they claime to be ? Can you give examples ?

 

Thank you -

 

Let me give you a clear example brother,

In the era of Imam Ali (peace be upon him) some people started oppositions and even war against the Imam, but Imam Ali did not say that they were kuffar and disbelievers. Just take a look at this hadith narrated from Imam Ali (alayhis salaam):

 

إِنَّا لَمْ نُقَاتِلْهُمْ عَلَى التَّكْفِيرِ لَهُمْ، وَ لَمْ نُقَاتِلْهُمْ عَلَى التَّكْفِيرِ لَنَا

we did not fight with them on the basis of attributing kufr to them, neither did we fight with them because they might attribute kufr to us

(Biharul Anwaar: 32: 324)

 

Is there an action contradicting with Islam more than opposing and starting a war with Imam Ali (alayhis salaam) about whom the Prophet had said: Ali is with the truth and the truth is with Ali...?! Yet Imam Ali does not consider the opposition to be out of the realm of Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So no matter what someone does, killing shildren, raping woman - as long as he calls himself a muslim - we are to consider him a muslim ?

A muslim may do many crimes, muslim doesn't mean infallible. Whatever crime he commits he must be punished accordingly, after being convicted in an Islamic court; sometimes even by death penalty. But not all death penalties mean Kufr.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

let me rephrase solitair question: (maybe it is my own question but I think I have to ask it here)

 

Bahaa'ees are considered muslaims or not? as far as I know they state the words of shahaadayn but many scholars consider them apostates or at least non-muslims?

 

I think it is not always a matter of different levels of faith.

 

modern Bahaaees do not believe in اشهد ان محمدا رسول الله. They say that Muhammad (pbuh) was the messenger but he is not the messenger. so they believe in Babuallah and bahaullah as you know that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bahai do not even consider themselves to be Muslim. Although one of their founders at one time had claimed to be the 12th Imam they do not believe or practice what Muslims believe and practice. They agree with us that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad (saws) was a Prophet but they do not believe he was the last Prophet and they think Krishna was a Prophet too. They do not perform salat. So their religion is not Islam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So no matter what someone does, killing shildren, raping woman - as long as he calls himself a muslim - we are to consider him a muslim ?

 

Yes, definitely. One is considered a Muslim as long as they don't declare any denials of tawhid or nubuwwah or any other certain Islamic principles.

 

And, as brother Mesbah truly said, Muslim doesn't mean infallible. A great deal of Islamic laws concern the issue of the crimes that a Muslim might commit, and their penalties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 as long as they don't declare any denials of tawhid or nubuwwah or any other certain Islamic principles.

 

 

What if a man is teaching other Muslims wrong things about Islam, wrong things about the prophet. The man is trying to make people follow him, by teaching a false Islam to people. He is inserting false teachings. He is telling people that the prophet realy ment something else than what he actually said and wrote in the qur'an.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if a man is teaching other Muslims wrong things about Islam, wrong things about the prophet. The man is trying to make people follow him, by teaching a false Islam to people. He is inserting false teachings. He is telling people that the prophet realy ment something else than what he actually said and wrote in the qur'an.

 

All of these cases are explained in the realm of Islam. Islam has certain rulings about each and every one of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if a man is teaching other Muslims wrong things about Islam, wrong things about the prophet. The man is trying to make people follow him, by teaching a false Islam to people. He is inserting false teachings. He is telling people that the prophet realy ment something else than what he actually said and wrote in the qur'an.

 

this is called bid'ah.

for someone to be considered infidel or apostate, he must deny the existence of God, or the prophethood of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or deny one of Islam's teachings while he knows that teaching is a part of the religion (since it postulates the denial of the prophethood) but if he claims that teaching is not a part of Islam in the first place and what he says is in fact a part of religion and what he says is against the consensus of Islamic Ummah, then he's made a bid'ah and inserted something new, something not known before to Islam and this is not kufr but it has severe punishment according to the degree of that bid'ah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be a Muslim, one must affirm that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His final prophet and messenger. He/she must also affirm that salat, zakat, sawm, and Hajj are obligatory, and that they are practiced as they were taught to us by the Prophet (pbuh). He/she must believe in the Day of Resurrection, all of the prophets, and the angels. Additionally, he/she must harbour no hatred towards the Prophet or his family.

 

Those that believe in the above are Muslims and are entitled to the rights of Muslims. They must be protected. Their marriage is halal, their dhabiha is halal, their sick are visited, their dead are eulogized, they are ritually pure, etc.

 

This is what we'd call "a Muslim in this life". Who or who isn't a true believer is in the knowledge of God. The path of becoming a believer involves the belief in wilaya (God's divine authority and the authority of His representatives), practicing tawalla (allying oneself to the Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl al-Bayt (as), loving them, protecting them, obeying them), practicing tabarra' (disassociation from their enemies), the sincere practice of the 5 pillars, giving fellow Muslims their rights, etc.

 

So there are plenty of sects that would be Muslim, but their practice of Islam may not be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. If their beliefs and practice are improper or insincere, Allah may be less inclined to forgive their shortcomings.

Edited by Qa'im

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are 73 sects only 1 enters the gates of Jannah and I think all of us here know it's the Shias.

 

Salaam dear friend,

 

I want to ask you a question.

Apparently you believe that non-Muslims do not enter the Jannah and as for Muslims, only one sect out of the 73 sects enters the gates of Jannah. So I wonder why Allah s.w.t. created 8 gates for Jannah but 7 gates for hell, which means- as He repeatedly said- that His mercy is greater than His anger?!!

Why did He create the Jannah so spacious that He describes it being "as wide as the heavens and earth" for only a very small group of people?!

Is it not in contrast with His mercy and compassion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I want to ask you a question.

Apparently you believe that non-Muslims do not enter the Jannah and as for Muslims, only one sect out of the 73 sects enters the gates of Jannah. So I wonder why Allah s.w.t. created 8 gates for Jannah but 7 gates for hell, which means- as He repeatedly said- that His mercy is greater than His anger?!!

Why did He create the Jannah so spacious that He describes it being "as wide as the heavens and earth" for only a very small group of people?!

Is it not in contrast with His mercy and compassion?

Salam dear friend!

 

considering your statement the people who enter heaven must be more than those who enter hell, but as you know quran says always the quantity of those who are truthful, honest and faithful, are much less than others.

 

yes, Allah has created Jannah bigger and more spacious because he wants to reward believers with it.

وَسَارِعُواْ إِلَى مَغْفِرَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَجَنَّةٍ عَرْضُهَا السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالأَرْضُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord; and a Garden, the extensiveness of which is (as) the heavens and the earth, it is prepared for those who guard (against evil).

 

and since he wants to punish disbelievers, hell has been created cramped.

 

and also heaven has eight doors because more "kinds" of people enter heaven. it doesn't talk about the quantity and whether more people enter heaven or less? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

by the time prophet was devoted to Islam and spreading and extending believers he did emphasize only on three points,  testimony of which Allah is one (tawheed), the prophet Muhammad is Allah's messenger and the day of judgement will come after this world.

 

this is Islam and as you see it's very unequivocal.

and whoever denies these facts are out and not a Muslim.

 

but afterward it has some requirements but some people didn't see it's necessity. so they're not out of Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

HamzaTR posted in a different thread that all sects under Islam are believers. I think that is difficult to understand, because there seem to be some that are pretty out there on the edge - in my opinion.

 

I can understand the logic, where HamsaTR say: "only believers are allowed to perform pilgrimage. And, never in history have any of islamic sects been forbidden of forbade others from performing it. Only this can tell you what the consensus of Muslims is on this issue. All sects are believers, thus brothers in faith. But some maybe misguided, but it is irrelevant."

 

I just wonder if misguided - is not crossing the line to actually believing in something that is not Islam at some point, for some of these ?

 

I am of course not talking about sunni or similar, im talking about bigger differences in some of the fundamental believes that some of them sects seem to believe in / interperate different, or be misguided to practice - however you define it.

 

I came f.eks. accros some Muslim sects in the Philippines, that seem to practice something that i did not find very familiar with what I understand as true Islam.

 

Are there some fatwas - or something to clarify more on this ?

 

 

I don't agree with your use of the word quivocal, but i understand what you said.

 

Nur Misuari - is he a musllim ? If one is to say that he is, what about Habier Malik ?

 

MNLF, is that a sect of believers ?

 

I understand what HamzaTR posted, but I fail for example to see that Nur Misurari as a believer, or that MNLF can be defined as any kind of Islam - but in the Philippines, large groups define this is as Islam.

 

Can anybody help me with this ?

 

 

Let me give you a clear example brother,

In the era of Imam Ali (peace be upon him) some people started oppositions and even war against the Imam, but Imam Ali did not say that they were kuffar and disbelievers. Just take a look at this hadith narrated from Imam Ali (alayhis salaam):

 

إِنَّا لَمْ نُقَاتِلْهُمْ عَلَى التَّكْفِيرِ لَهُمْ، وَ لَمْ نُقَاتِلْهُمْ عَلَى التَّكْفِيرِ لَنَا

we did not fight with them on the basis of attributing kufr to them, neither did we fight with them because they might attribute kufr to us

(Biharul Anwaar: 32: 324)

 

Is there an action contradicting with Islam more than opposing and starting a war with Imam Ali (alayhis salaam) about whom the Prophet had said: Ali is with the truth and the truth is with Ali...?! Yet Imam Ali does not consider the opposition to be out of the realm of Islam.

 

 

I think the question - is answered properly now.

I have learned that what i am looking for i not in this question at all. Because to be a muslim is what you believe - not what you do.

 

(salam)

 

I think there is a very important point missing here:

 

We have to separate between two different terms when we call someone as a Muslim:

 

1.       Being a Muslim in appearance whom the Islamic rules and rights should be applied upon him/her. For someone to be Muslim in this sense it is enough to testify to oneness of Allah and prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) and then, he will have every rights of a Muslim, should be respected and no one can ascribe Kufr to him/her. Islam in this sense is a simple concept and everyone enjoys equal rights and position in society by embracing Islam.

 

2.       Being a true Muslim and believer who possesses a high position before Allah. True salvation and happiness cannot be guaranteed unless by being a Muslim in this sense. And for becoming Muslim in this sense, it is not enough just to believe but the Divine guidance should be applied accordingly in one’s lifestyle. Islam in this sense has so many different stages and levels.

 

Therefore, one can be a Shia Muslim in the first sense which means no one would be justified to insult him/her and neglect his status as a Muslim. But at the same time, this person can be a hypocrite in his heart who do not even actually believe in Islam and he can be even worse than any Kafir and pagan before Allah.

 

Finally, since we do not have Divine knowledge, we cannot - and we are not allowed to - prejudge about a specific person being a true Muslim in the second sense or not - unless in some certain cases and groups which is being stated otherwise by Allah, our prophet and Imams - and usually it is something that will be determined in hereafter by Divine judgment.

 

(wasalam) 

Edited by salman.persian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salams,

sorry I am at the library and give exact quotes from the hadith about this. But I can tell you what Ahlu Bayt a.s. said in hadith:

Imam Baqir a.s. said that those who didn't follow the Prophet's Successors after him left the religion and were thrown from the religion. There are many hadith that confirm this.

I've also read that those who truly followed the Prophets in their time are 'Muslims'. Also hadith tells us that each Prophet's soul gave testimony to the Position of Mohammad and his Successors at point where Allah took the covenant from the souls. Also, Members of Ahlu Bayt a.s. are mentioned in the other books... Bible & Torah... sometimes by description and sometimes by names other than we initially know them by.

It is not up to us to decide who is and who isn't a Muslim.... this is Allah and He informs us through Ahlu Bayt a.s. and they a.s. inform us.

 

Hadith does say clearly about how the other religions broke down into seventy some groups and Muslims too. And it says that there will be 13 groups who claim to follow Ali a.s. but only one of them will be in Paradise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam dear friend!

 

considering your statement the people who enter heaven must be more than those who enter hell, but as you know quran says always the quantity of those who are truthful, honest and faithful, are much less than others.

 

yes, Allah has created Jannah bigger and more spacious because he wants to reward believers with it.

وَسَارِعُواْ إِلَى مَغْفِرَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَجَنَّةٍ عَرْضُهَا السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالأَرْضُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord; and a Garden, the extensiveness of which is (as) the heavens and the earth, it is prepared for those who guard (against evil).

 

and since he wants to punish disbelievers, hell has been created cramped.

 

and also heaven has eight doors because more "kinds" of people enter heaven. it doesn't talk about the quantity and whether more people enter heaven or less? 

 

I think you got it the wrong way. I didn't say the number of the truthful and honest people is more than the others, what I said is that the number of those who enter the Jannah is larger than those who go to hell.

 

And I think the reason is clear. Jannah is not only for pious and truthful people like you. A large number of the people who enter the Paradise are the kids and ignorant people and etc.

 

Just take a look at these hadiths:

 

 حَدَّثَنَا الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا فَضَالَةُ عَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ بُرَيْدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع عَنِ الْجَهَنَّمِيِّينَ فَقَالَ كَانَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع يَقُولُ يَخْرُجُونَ مِنْهَا فَيُنْتَهَى بِهِمْ إِلَى عَيْنٍ عِنْدَ بَابِ الْجَنَّةِ تُسَمَّى عَيْنَ الْحَيَوَانِ فَيُنْضَحُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ مَائِهَا فَيَنْبُتُونَ كَمَا يَنْبُتُ الزَّرْعُ لُحُومُهُمْ وَ جُلُودُهُمْ وَ شُعُورُهُمْ

 فَضَالَةُ بْنُ أَيُّوبَ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أَبَانٍ عَنْ أُدَيْمٍ أَخِي أَيُّوبَ عَنْ حُمْرَانَ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لِأَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع إِنَّهُمْ يَقُولُونَ لَا تَعْجَبُونَ مِنْ قَوْمٍ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُخْرِجُ قَوْماً مِنَ النَّارِ فَيَجْعَلُهُمْ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ الْجَنَّةِ مَعَ أَوْلِيَائِهِ فَقَالَ أَ مَا يَقْرَءُونَ قَوْلَ اللَّهِ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى وَ مِنْ دُونِهِما جَنَّتانِ إِنَّهَا جَنَّةٌ دُونَ جَنَّةٍ وَ نَارٌ دُونَ نَارٍ إِنَّهُمْ لَا يُسَاكِنُونَ أَوْلِيَاءَ اللَّهِ وَ قَالَ إِنَّ بَيْنَهُمَا وَ اللَّهِ مَنْزِلَةً [مَنْزِلَتَيْنِ‏] وَ لَكِنْ لَا أَسْتَطِيعُ أَنْ أَتَكَلَّمَ إِنَّ أَمْرَهُمْ لَأَضْيَقُ‏ مِنَ الْحَلْقَةِ إِنَّ الْقَائِمَ لَوْ قَامَ بَدَأَ بِهَؤُلَاء

262- مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ الْحَجَّاجِ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لِأَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع حَدِيثٌ يَرْوُونَهُ النَّاسُ فَقَالَ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ ثُمَّ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص إِنَّ آخِرَ عَبْدٍ يُؤْمَرُ بِهِ إِلَى النَّارِ فَإِذَا أُمِرَ بِهِ إِلَى النَّارِ الْتَفَتَ فَيَقُولُ [اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَ‏] الْجَبَّارُ [أَ] عَجِّلُوهُ فَإِذَا أُتِيَ بِهِ قَالَ لَهُ عَبْدِي لِمَ الْتَفَتَّ فَيَقُولُ يَا رَبِّ مَا كَانَ ظَنِّي بِكَ هَذَا فَيَقُولُ اللَّهُ جَلَّ جَلَالُهُ عَبْدِي وَ مَا كَانَ ظَنُّكَ بِي فَيَقُولُ يَا رَبِّ كَانَ ظَنِّي بِكَ أَنْ تَغْفِرَ لِي خَطِيئَتِي وَ تُسْكِنَنِي [وَ تُدْخِلَنِي‏] جَنَّتَكَ فَيَقُولُ اللَّهُ الْجَبَّارُ جَلَّ وَ عَلَا يَا مَلَائِكَتِي وَ عِزَّتِي وَ آلَائِي وَ بَلَائِي وَ جَلَالِي وَ عُلُوِّي وَ ارْتِفَاعِ مَكَانِي مَا ظَنَّ بِي عَبْدِي سَاعَةً مِنْ حَيَاتِهِ خَيْراً قَطُّ وَ لَوْ ظَنَّ بِي سَاعَةً مِنْ حَيَاتِهِ خَيْراً مَا رَوَّعْتُهُ بِالنَّارِ أَجِيزُوا لَهُ كَذِبَهُ وَ أَدْخِلُوهُ الْجَنَّةَ ثُمَّ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص [أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع‏] لَيْسَ مِنْ عَبْدٍ ظَنَّ [مَا ظَنَّ عَبْدٌ] بِاللَّهِ خَيْراً إِلَّا كَانَ اللَّهُ عِنْدَ ظَنِّهِ بِهِ وَ لَا ظَنَّ بِهِ سُوءاً إِلَّا كَانَ اللَّهُ عِنْدَ ظَنِّهِ بِهِ وَ ذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى [عَزَّ وَ جَلَ‏] وَ ذلِكُمْ ظَنُّكُمُ الَّذِي ظَنَنْتُمْ بِرَبِّكُمْ أَرْداكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُمْ مِنَ الْخاسِرِينَ

This is what I meant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you got it the wrong way. I didn't say the number of the truthful and honest people is more than the others, what I said is that the number of those who enter the Jannah is larger than those who go to hell.

 

And I think the reason is clear. Jannah is not only for pious and truthful people like you. A large number of the people who enter the Paradise are the kids and ignorant people and etc.

 

Just take a look at these hadiths:

 

salam, Alhamdo -lellah 

but firstly could you please translate these ahadiths so I and others could take benefit.

 

secondly we have two kinds of Jannah.

one of which is the reflection of your activity in this world. and the second is like a garden(as it is the arabic meaning of Jannah).

those who don't have free will at all, will not be "able" to enter the first place as well as those who are retarded.

 

besides we have some traditions indicating some people are deserved and entitled to enter Jannah. we don't know the criteria all and with the help of those Ahadith we understand them.( we understand that having a good intention is worthy enough to help a person enter Jannah. so being truthful and faithful even at this level is enough and is rewarded).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

salam, Alhamdo -lellah 

but firstly could you please translate these ahadiths so I and others could take benefit.

 

secondly we have two kinds of Jannah.

one of which is the reflection of your activity in this world. and the second is like a garden(as it is the arabic meaning of Jannah).

those who don't have free will at all, will not be "able" to enter the first place as well as those who are retarded.

 

besides we have some traditions indicating some people are deserved and entitled to enter Jannah. we don't know the criteria all and with the help of those Ahadith we understand them.( we understand that having a good intention is worthy enough to help a person enter Jannah. so being truthful and faithful even at this level is enough and is rewarded).

 

(wasalam)

Firstly, I apologize in advance for not having time to translate those hadiths, but to summarize them I should say that an abundance of Allah's s.w.t. servants -in the general sense- will enter the Jannah by Allah's s.w.t. mercy and compassion or the intercession of the Prophet or Imams (as)  or the other intercessors.

 

But it is obvious that there are numerous ranks and degrees in Jannah, and for sure, the person who enters Jannah, having committed lots of sins will not be able to go up to the high ranks of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salams,

sorry I am at the library and give exact quotes from the hadith about this. But I can tell you what Ahlu Bayt a.s. said in hadith:

Imam Baqir a.s. said that those who didn't follow the Prophet's Successors after him left the religion and were thrown from the religion. There are many hadith that confirm this.

I've also read that those who truly followed the Prophets in their time are 'Muslims'. Also hadith tells us that each Prophet's soul gave testimony to the Position of Mohammad and his Successors at point where Allah took the covenant from the souls. Also, Members of Ahlu Bayt a.s. are mentioned in the other books... Bible & Torah... sometimes by description and sometimes by names other than we initially know them by.

It is not up to us to decide who is and who isn't a Muslim.... this is Allah and He informs us through Ahlu Bayt a.s. and they a.s. inform us.

 

Hadith does say clearly about how the other religions broke down into seventy some groups and Muslims too. And it says that there will be 13 groups who claim to follow Ali a.s. but only one of them will be in Paradise.

 

of course we don't want to go beyond ahlulbayt guidelines. we're supposed to follow them.

but these tradition say that theologically people are supposed to have these beliefs in order to have utter faith.

 

but the question is by the time of prophet when we had Islam and this religion first appeared, what were the criteria?

did any of what you mentioned exist?

granted these are the requirements of our fundamental beliefs, but they're somewhat different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...