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In the Name of God بسم الله

Necessity Of Imamah (An Intellectual Argument)

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Bismillahi ar rahman ra raheem.   Praise to be Allah the lord of the worlds and peace and blessings be upon his last messenger Abul Qasim Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wa salam, and upon his pure house (

Instead of proving your point and actually showing why you're correct, all you did was make a statement that Imamah is not found in the Qur'an nor in Islam.   In reality Imamah is accepted by the enti

Why do you speak when you are not certain?   When the Qur'an says "refer back to Allah and the messenger" it means refer your issues back to the Qur'an and Sunnah, additionally this does not negate th

Show me where they proclaimed their Imamate and gave the people a CHANCE to adhere to their Imamate.

 

 

You skipped a lot of what I said and perhaps skimmed through, so if you can, please answer my points bit by bit.

 

- الحسين بن محمد الأشعري، عن معلى بن محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن أبي مسعود، عن الجعفري قال سمعت أبا الحسن الرضا عليه السلام يقول: الأئمة خلفاء الله عز وجل في أرضه.

 

Jafari said " I heard Abul Hasan Ar ridha(3) say": " The Imams are the successors of Allah azza wa jal on his earth".

 

They did indeed proclaim their Imamah, your weak argument is that if an Imam does not pronounce it publicly then he is no longer an Imam and this is obviously wrong and without proof for the action of public widespread announcement is not a necessary action of the attribute of Imamah(if Allah commanded the Imam to keep this claim of Imamah among his shia). If this is the case then when the Prophet (as) who did not announce his imamate for 40 years publicly was not an Imam during those 40 years? 

 

Please provide proofs for what you say or remain silent. I'll answer your second part (the one in read) below.

 

 And NO what I am saying does NOT apply to Prophet Ibrahim (as). He was a Prophet(as). This means that if he simply performs his duties as a messenger and warner then he is still a Prophet

 

 

 

This was not my argument.

 

Rather I said : " This is like saying that if Ibrahim (as) was sent to the people as an Imam, and the people rejected him and his leadership, then according to you he is no longer an Imam, sorry but this is obviously wrong".

 

If Ibrahim (as) was rejected as an Imam and did not lead the people, then according to your logic he is no longer the Imam since he is not leading. 

 

 

And yes of course they must proclaim their Imamate publicly. How else can the public know who they are ? How can the public/Ummah follow an Imam if he doesn't even tell them he is the Imam ? Come on now this  makes no sense. If you are charged with leading the people then you must at least tell the people that you are their leader. But you guys have this doctrine that simply by existing as a living creature one can be leading. It makes absolutely no sense AT ALL to me and I see ZERO precedent for it in the Qur'an or anywhere else.

 

 

 

I already answered your theory regarding "public announcement".

 

Regarding the second part of this quote it doesn't matter whether or not the Imam (as) claims it publicly or not, if Allah chooses to guide the person then he will become the Shii of the Imam, so Allah is not being unjust to anyone.

 

 

 
 عنه، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن أبي إسماعيل السراج، عن ابن مسكان، عن ثابت أبي سعيد قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يا ثابت ما لكم وللناس، كفوا عن الناس ولا تدعوا أحدا إلى أمركم، فوالله لو أن أهل السماوات وأهل الأرضين اجتمعوا على أن يهدوا عبدا يريد الله ضلالته ما استطاعوا على أن يهدوه، ولو أن أهل السماوات وأهل - الأرضين اجتمعوا على أن يضلوا عبدا لله يريد الله هداه ما استطاعوا أن يضلوه، كفوا عن الناس ولا يقل أحدكم: " أخي، وابن عمي، وجاري "، فإن الله إذا أراد بعبد خيرا طيب روحه فلا يسمع معروفا إلا عرفه ولا منكرا إلا أنكره، ثم يقذف الله في قلبه كلمة يجمع بها أمره. عنه، عن أبيه، عن عبد الله بن يحيى، عن عبد الله بن مسكان، عن ثابت مثله.
 
From him, from muhammad ibn ismaeel, from abi ismaaeel as-siraaj, from ibn maskaan, from thaabit ibn saeed he said that Abi abdillah (as0 said “ Oh thabit,this is not for you nor for mankind to decide, stop and do not call any of them to your matter(tashayuu), for by Allah if the inhabitants of the heavens and the earths gathered together upon guiding someone who Allah wished to misguide him then they would never be able to guide him. And if the people of the heavens and the earth gathered together to misguide and Allah wished to guide them then they would not be able to misguide him. Stop calling upon the people to our matter (tashayyu), and do not say my brother or my cousin or this or that. For indeed if Allah wished for a servant goodness then he would not know anything until he taught him nor would he deny anything until Allah made him deny, Allah places in his heart all that which is from his command.

 

I do not see any contradictions in what I said. It all looks perfectly clear to me. And taqiya makes no sense either since you claim equality for all the Imams (as) They CANNOT be equal because Surah An Nisa Ayat 95 says that those who stay home are not equal to those who fight. So using the Qur'an as a standard an Imam in taqiyah is NOT equal to an Imam such as Hussein (as) who raised the sword. Now one may certainly excel in knowledge and piety whilst staying at home but I/we Zaydiyyah do not equate that with being Imam of the Age

 

 

What type of ignorant person would assume that this verse is speaking about Ahlul Bayt (as) ? This verse was revealed about the cowards who would not fight the disbelievers, this verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about, are you a khariji or a zaydi?

 

According to your logic because Ammar Ibn yasir went out to fight oppression and Imam Jafar as saadiq (As) did not, this means that Ammar is now better than yasir? According to your scale of superiority then Ammar would be better than saadiq ?

 

 

Let me state again that leading and governing are not necessarily the same thing. Governing is leading but there are people in recent history , like Malcolm X, who were certainly leaders but did not govern. The thing is that they LED. They rallied the people to their cause. They organized a following. They told their adherents what they thought the goals should be and how they thought they should get there. Leadership is NOT always governing.

 

 

 

If you think that an Imam governing and an Imam leading is two different things then I'm afraid you need to go take basic logic 101 along with an English dictionary and then come back and debate "the 12ers".

 

 

 

 
Yet most of the 12 khalifas hadiths indicate that they are about people who DO govern. They are the people in charge. In any case there are sahih hadith saying that those will be 12 DESCENDANTS of Fatima (as) which of course excludes your line of Imams because it begins, as ours does, with Imam Ali (as) who is definitely not a descendant. Other hadiths have different numbers etc. In any case without producing the 12th Imam you guys can't prove that the hadith is about your line of Imams anyway since you only have 11 that you can objectively prove were ever born and less than that who said to the world that they were Imams in any sense of the word

 

 

1- All books of all schools of thoughts have mention there being 12 Imams, you don't have 12, we are the only real group alive today that has 12 Imams, why is that?

 

2- Show me the hadith where it says that they all must govern publicly or implies it.

 

3- Imam Ali (As) is a part of the Ahlul Bayt, and the hadith that mentions the 12 imams come in different forms, if the prophet (as) is telling you to follow the children of hussein (as), does that negate the Imamate of Ali (as) ?

 

 

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You skipped a lot of what I said and perhaps skimmed through, so if you can, please answer my points bit by bit.

 

- الحسين بن محمد الأشعري، عن معلى بن محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن أبي مسعود، عن الجعفري قال سمعت أبا الحسن الرضا عليه السلام يقول: الأئمة خلفاء الله عز وجل في أرضه.

 

Jafari said " I heard Abul Hasan Ar ridha(3) say": " The Imams are the successors of Allah azza wa jal on his earth".

 

They did indeed proclaim their Imamah, your weak argument is that if an Imam does not pronounce it publicly then he is no longer an Imam and this is obviously wrong and without proof for the action of public widespread announcement is not a necessary action of the attribute of Imamah(if Allah commanded the Imam to keep this claim of Imamah among his shia). If this is the case then when the Prophet (as) who did not announce his imamate for 40 years publicly was not an Imam during those 40 years? 

 

Please provide proofs for what you say or remain silent. I'll answer your second part (the one in read) below.

 

 

This was not my argument.

 

Rather I said : " This is like saying that if Ibrahim (as) was sent to the people as an Imam, and the people rejected him and his leadership, then according to you he is no longer an Imam, sorry but this is obviously wrong".

 

If Ibrahim (as) was rejected as an Imam and did not lead the people, then according to your logic he is no longer the Imam since he is not leading. 

 

 

 

I already answered your theory regarding "public announcement".

 

Regarding the second part of this quote it doesn't matter whether or not the Imam (as) claims it publicly or not, if Allah chooses to guide the person then he will become the Shii of the Imam, so Allah is not being unjust to anyone.

 

 

 
 عنه، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن أبي إسماعيل السراج، عن ابن مسكان، عن ثابت أبي سعيد قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يا ثابت ما لكم وللناس، كفوا عن الناس ولا تدعوا أحدا إلى أمركم، فوالله لو أن أهل السماوات وأهل الأرضين اجتمعوا على أن يهدوا عبدا يريد الله ضلالته ما استطاعوا على أن يهدوه، ولو أن أهل السماوات وأهل - الأرضين اجتمعوا على أن يضلوا عبدا لله يريد الله هداه ما استطاعوا أن يضلوه، كفوا عن الناس ولا يقل أحدكم: " أخي، وابن عمي، وجاري "، فإن الله إذا أراد بعبد خيرا طيب روحه فلا يسمع معروفا إلا عرفه ولا منكرا إلا أنكره، ثم يقذف الله في قلبه كلمة يجمع بها أمره. عنه، عن أبيه، عن عبد الله بن يحيى، عن عبد الله بن مسكان، عن ثابت مثله.
 
From him, from muhammad ibn ismaeel, from abi ismaaeel as-siraaj, from ibn maskaan, from thaabit ibn saeed he said that Abi abdillah (as0 said “ Oh thabit,this is not for you nor for mankind to decide, stop and do not call any of them to your matter(tashayuu), for by Allah if the inhabitants of the heavens and the earths gathered together upon guiding someone who Allah wished to misguide him then they would never be able to guide him. And if the people of the heavens and the earth gathered together to misguide and Allah wished to guide them then they would not be able to misguide him. Stop calling upon the people to our matter (tashayyu), and do not say my brother or my cousin or this or that. For indeed if Allah wished for a servant goodness then he would not know anything until he taught him nor would he deny anything until Allah made him deny, Allah places in his heart all that which is from his command.

 

 

 

What type of ignorant person would assume that this verse is speaking about Ahlul Bayt (as) ? This verse was revealed about the cowards who would not fight the disbelievers, this verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about, are you a khariji or a zaydi?

 

According to your logic because Ammar Ibn yasir went out to fight oppression and Imam Jafar as saadiq (as) did not, this means that Ammar is now better than yasir? According to your scale of superiority then Ammar would be better than saadiq ?

 

 

 

 

If you think that an Imam governing and an Imam leading is two different things then I'm afraid you need to go take basic logic 101 along with an English dictionary and then come back and debate "the 12ers".

 

 

 

 

 

1- All books of all schools of thoughts have mention there being 12 Imams, you don't have 12, we are the only real group alive today that has 12 Imams, why is that?

 

2- Show me the hadith where it says that they all must govern publicly or implies it.

 

3- Imam Ali (as) is a part of the Ahlul Bayt, and the hadith that mentions the 12 imams come in different forms, if the prophet (as) is telling you to follow the children of hussein (as), does that negate the Imamate of Ali (as) ?

 

 

 

Ok  YOU are missing MY point and don't ever in your life tell me to remain quiet. We are brothers you are not my father and I will not tolerate your disrespect. You wanna tell somebody to remain quiet because you don't like what he says , how he says it or why then you are talking to the WRONG man. I hope that is understood and we never have to address this issue again. This is a chat forum and you do not set the requirements for me to be able to speak. Get over yourself

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You skipped a lot of what I said and perhaps skimmed through, so if you can, please answer my points bit by bit.

 

- الحسين بن محمد الأشعري، عن معلى بن محمد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن أبي مسعود، عن الجعفري قال سمعت أبا الحسن الرضا عليه السلام يقول: الأئمة خلفاء الله عز وجل في أرضه.

 

Jafari said " I heard Abul Hasan Ar ridha(3) say": " The Imams are the successors of Allah azza wa jal on his earth".

 

They did indeed proclaim their Imamah, your weak argument is that if an Imam does not pronounce it publicly then he is no longer an Imam and this is obviously wrong and without proof for the action of public widespread announcement is not a necessary action of the attribute of Imamah(if Allah commanded the Imam to keep this claim of Imamah among his shia). If this is the case then when the Prophet (as) who did not announce his imamate for 40 years publicly was not an Imam during those 40 years? 

 

Please provide proofs for what you say or remain silent. I'll answer your second part (the one in read) below.

 

 

This was not my argument.

 

Rather I said : " This is like saying that if Ibrahim (as) was sent to the people as an Imam, and the people rejected him and his leadership, then according to you he is no longer an Imam, sorry but this is obviously wrong".

 

If Ibrahim (as) was rejected as an Imam and did not lead the people, then according to your logic he is no longer the Imam since he is not leading. 

 

 

 

I already answered your theory regarding "public announcement".

 

Regarding the second part of this quote it doesn't matter whether or not the Imam (as) claims it publicly or not, if Allah chooses to guide the person then he will become the Shii of the Imam, so Allah is not being unjust to anyone.

 

 

 
 عنه، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن أبي إسماعيل السراج، عن ابن مسكان، عن ثابت أبي سعيد قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يا ثابت ما لكم وللناس، كفوا عن الناس ولا تدعوا أحدا إلى أمركم، فوالله لو أن أهل السماوات وأهل الأرضين اجتمعوا على أن يهدوا عبدا يريد الله ضلالته ما استطاعوا على أن يهدوه، ولو أن أهل السماوات وأهل - الأرضين اجتمعوا على أن يضلوا عبدا لله يريد الله هداه ما استطاعوا أن يضلوه، كفوا عن الناس ولا يقل أحدكم: " أخي، وابن عمي، وجاري "، فإن الله إذا أراد بعبد خيرا طيب روحه فلا يسمع معروفا إلا عرفه ولا منكرا إلا أنكره، ثم يقذف الله في قلبه كلمة يجمع بها أمره. عنه، عن أبيه، عن عبد الله بن يحيى، عن عبد الله بن مسكان، عن ثابت مثله.
 
From him, from muhammad ibn ismaeel, from abi ismaaeel as-siraaj, from ibn maskaan, from thaabit ibn saeed he said that Abi abdillah (as0 said “ Oh thabit,this is not for you nor for mankind to decide, stop and do not call any of them to your matter(tashayuu), for by Allah if the inhabitants of the heavens and the earths gathered together upon guiding someone who Allah wished to misguide him then they would never be able to guide him. And if the people of the heavens and the earth gathered together to misguide and Allah wished to guide them then they would not be able to misguide him. Stop calling upon the people to our matter (tashayyu), and do not say my brother or my cousin or this or that. For indeed if Allah wished for a servant goodness then he would not know anything until he taught him nor would he deny anything until Allah made him deny, Allah places in his heart all that which is from his command.

 

 

 

What type of ignorant person would assume that this verse is speaking about Ahlul Bayt (as) ? This verse was revealed about the cowards who would not fight the disbelievers, this verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about, are you a khariji or a zaydi?

 

According to your logic because Ammar Ibn yasir went out to fight oppression and Imam Jafar as saadiq (as) did not, this means that Ammar is now better than yasir? According to your scale of superiority then Ammar would be better than saadiq ?

 

 

 

 

If you think that an Imam governing and an Imam leading is two different things then I'm afraid you need to go take basic logic 101 along with an English dictionary and then come back and debate "the 12ers".

 

 

 

 

 

1- All books of all schools of thoughts have mention there being 12 Imams, you don't have 12, we are the only real group alive today that has 12 Imams, why is that?

 

2- Show me the hadith where it says that they all must govern publicly or implies it.

 

3- Imam Ali (as) is a part of the Ahlul Bayt, and the hadith that mentions the 12 imams come in different forms, if the prophet (as) is telling you to follow the children of hussein (as), does that negate the Imamate of Ali (as) ?

 

 

 

Now that that is out of the way I will address a point or two today and inshaAllah I will answer the rest tomorrow. This is because it is close to midnight and it has been a long day.

Now I did not say that he LOSES his Imamate if he does not proclaim it publicly, I dispute that one is even an Imam in the 1st place without proclaiming it publicly. The disconnect comes because you believe in divine appointment of all Imams whereas Zaydi do not. Furthermore Muhammad (saws) was not even given his mission until he was 40 years old. That is when Jibril came to him, wrapped him up and began to issue to him the Revelation so I see no sense in you saying something about him being an Imam those first 40 years. Was he supposed to proclaim Imamate from the cradle ? Come on. He proclaimed his Prophethood when he received it and he did so despite facing persecution.

 

Once again you are getting me wrong when it comes to Prophet Ibrahim (as). I am saying if he did not even attempt to lead then he would not have been a leader in the first place . The root word of leader is lead. Come on. If you do not even try to lead then how are you a leader. In any case Ibraheem (as) was a PROPHE. I wholeheartedly reject the 12er assertion Prophets are all Imams. They are not. Many warned people and were not heeded. Many never attempted to lead. This is simply an attempt by 12ers to equate Imams and Prophets and give them similar status. And I don't have to prove anything to you. I am simply using my brain. You are not gonna win me over with nonsensical arguments. we are not talking about Ibraheem (as) except to the extent that you keep bringing him up. We were talking about the Imamate. Ibraheem (as) was not one of your 12 Imams (as) so he really has no place in this particular discussion. It is apples and oranges.

 

Anyway it is NOT a scale of superiority that I INVENTED. The Qur'an gives us this standard in Surah 4 Ayat 95. I certainly did not write the Qur'an so why you have even bothered to imply that I set that standard or even that my madhab did is beyond me. Those who fight are superior according to Qur'an. Your argument on that point is with the Qur'an not with me

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Now that that is out of the way I will address a point or two today and inshaAllah I will answer the rest tomorrow. This is because it is close to midnight and it has been a long day.
Now I did not say that he LOSES his Imamate if he does not proclaim it publicly, I dispute that one is even an Imam in the 1st place without proclaiming it publicly. The disconnect comes because you believe in divine appointment of all Imams whereas Zaydi do not. Furthermore Muhammad (saws) was not even given his mission until he was 40 years old. That is when Jibril came to him, wrapped him up and began to issue to him the Revelation so I see no sense in you saying something about him being an Imam those first 40 years. Was he supposed to proclaim Imamate from the cradle ? Come on. He proclaimed his Prophethood when he received it and he did so despite facing persecution.
 
Once again you are getting me wrong when it comes to Prophet Ibrahim (as). I am saying if he did not even attempt to lead then he would not have been a leader in the first place . The root word of leader is lead. Come on. If you do not even try to lead then how are you a leader. In any case Ibraheem (as) was a PROPHE. I wholeheartedly reject the 12er assertion Prophets are all Imams. They are not. Many warned people and were not heeded. Many never attempted to lead. This is simply an attempt by 12ers to equate Imams and Prophets and give them similar status. And I don't have to prove anything to you. I am simply using my brain. You are not gonna win me over with nonsensical arguments. we are not talking about Ibraheem (as) except to the extent that you keep bringing him up. We were talking about the Imamate. Ibraheem (as) was not one of your 12 Imams (as) so he really has no place in this particular discussion. It is apples and oranges.
 
Anyway it is NOT a scale of superiority that I INVENTED. The Qur'an gives us this standard in Surah 4 Ayat 95. I certainly did not write the Qur'an so why you have even bothered to imply that I set that standard or even that my madhab did is beyond me. Those who fight are superior according to Qur'an. Your argument on that point is with the Qur'an not with me
 

 

 

Not to sound arrogant but frankly It's not worth me repeating myself a million times and correcting you in every sentence, I'll let the readers read your response and let them compare it to what I said to you above, May Allah keep us both in good health and guide us, ameen.

 

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Furthermore IT IS correct that Allah is not unjust to anyone. Therefore Allah would not require someone, let alone the entire Ummah, to adhere to an Imam whom they had never heard of. So of course they have to announce their Imamate other wise it is unfair to the very public that is supposed to go by their guidance.

 

Your tafsir I reject. It does not apply ONLY to a specific instance but applies across the board. ZAYDI Imams raised the sword right up to the last one who died in 2007. He began the rebellion still being carried out in Yemen right now by the Houthis. Imam Hussein (as) fought against impossible odds, Imam zayd (as) fought against impossible odds, Imam Ali (as) spent a good chunk of his life in combat starting loooong before Prophet Muhammad (saws) had any kind of real army behind him. But YOU want me to say that guys who didn't even tell anybody they were Imams are equal to THAT ? And you say I'M ignorant ? Ha ha ha ha ! Find a short pier and take a long walk since you want to call names and hurl insults. There are PLENTY of 12ers here who know how to talk to a person without being foul mouthed and I see that you are not one of them. So from now on I will talk to the others but NOT YOU because you are rude.

salaam

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Ok  YOU are missing MY point and don't ever in your life tell me to remain quiet. We are brothers you are not my father and I will not tolerate your disrespect. You wanna tell somebody to remain quiet because you don't like what he says , how he says it or why then you are talking to the WRONG man. I hope that is understood and we never have to address this issue again. This is a chat forum and you do not set the requirements for me to be able to speak. Get over yourself

 

And you also not speak in this aggressive manner to any muslim brother. If you have to give someone advice, give him in a respectful manner. You will be treated as you treat. The issue will be addressed and if by no one else then by me, "stay quiet on topics you don't have proper knowledge". I say this only because the way you spoke above. Hope you understand and if you don't turn back from those words, I will not turn back from my words.

Show me where they proclaimed their Imamate and gave the people a CHANCE to adhere to their Imamate. And NO what I am saying does NOT apply to Prophet Ibrahim (as). He was a Prophet(as). This means that if he simply performs his duties as a messenger and warner then he is still a Prophet. An Imam must lead or at least attempt to. And yes of course they must proclaim their Imamate publicly. How else can the public know who they are ? How can the public/Ummah follow an Imam if he doesn't even tell them he is the Imam ? Come on now this  makes no sense. If you are charged with leading the people then you must at least tell the people that you are their leader. But you guys have this doctrine that simply by existing as a living creature one can be leading. It makes absolutely no sense AT ALL to me and I see ZERO precedent for it in the Qur'an or anywhere else.

 

 

I do not see any contradictions in what I said. It all looks perfectly clear to me. And taqiya makes no sense either since you claim equality for all the Imams (as) They CANNOT be equal because Surah An Nisa Ayat 95 says that those who stay home are not equal to those who fight. So using the Qur'an as a standard an Imam in taqiyah is NOT equal to an Imam such as Hussein (as) who raised the sword. Now one may certainly excel in knowledge and piety whilst staying at home but I/we Zaydiyyah do not equate that with being Imam of the Age

 

 

Now to the points you made above:

 

Try to understand the life of the 12 Imams. All of them fulfilled or are fulfilling their duties. They are a guide for you and me irrespective of whether you believe it or not, irrespective of whether you follow them or not. They are appointed by Allah. They lead and take people to the Prophet in different ways so you cannot reject our beliefs at all. Do you reject the beliefs of the 12ers just because you cannot comprehend something. If your knowledge and understanding is low and what you currently believe in is nothing but truth mixed with falsehood, in other words you are confused and you dont know you are confused, then that does not mean that the 12er way is wrong. You can bring 1000 of such arguments and only one statement or action of the 12 Imams we follow would be enough to counter those 100's of illogical arguments and ideas you bring which has no basis in the Quran or hadith. One action of the Imam can tell you he is the Imam appointed by Allah. And then you talk about taqiyya. Taqiyya is proven from the Quran. You cant bring bring verses in order to show how this verse contradicts this belief. We take the interpretation from the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt. Some verses have conditions so you cant just quote and say, "They CANNOT be equal because Surah An Nisa Ayat 95 says that those who stay home are not equal to those who fight" Who is this verse referring to? Are you 100% sure its referring to those whom you say it is refering to? What is the inner and outer meaning of this verse? Who should or can interpret this verse correctly?

What you say makes no sense at all!!!

Our 12 Imams have signs in them which proves they are appointed by Allah, proves they are a guide for us

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And you also not speak in this aggressive manner to any muslim brother. If you have to give someone advice, give him in a respectful manner. You will be treated as you treat. The issue will be addressed and if by no one else then by me, "stay quiet on topics you don't have proper knowledge". I say this only because the way you spoke above. Hope you understand and if you don't turn back from those words, I will not turn back from my words.

 

Now to the points you made above:

 

Try to understand the life of the 12 Imams. All of them fulfilled or are fulfilling their duties. They are a guide for you and me irrespective of whether you believe it or not, irrespective of whether you follow them or not. They are appointed by Allah. They lead and take people to the Prophet in different ways so you cannot reject our beliefs at all. Do you reject the beliefs of the 12ers just because you cannot comprehend something. If your knowledge and understanding is low and what you currently believe in is nothing but truth mixed with falsehood, in other words you are confused and you dont know you are confused, then that does not mean that the 12er way is wrong. You can bring 1000 of such arguments and only one statement or action of the 12 Imams we follow would be enough to counter those 100's of illogical arguments and ideas you bring which has no basis in the Quran or hadith. One action of the Imam can tell you he is the Imam appointed by Allah. And then you talk about taqiyya. Taqiyya is proven from the Quran. You cant bring bring verses in order to show how this verse contradicts this belief. We take the interpretation from the Prophet and his Ahlulbayt. Some verses have conditions so you cant just quote and say, "They CANNOT be equal because Surah An Nisa Ayat 95 says that those who stay home are not equal to those who fight" Who is this verse referring to? Are you 100% sure its referring to those whom you say it is refering to? What is the inner and outer meaning of this verse? Who should or can interpret this verse correctly?

What you say makes no sense at all!!!

Our 12 Imams have signs in them which proves they are appointed by Allah, proves they are a guide for us

I am a Zaydi. we have our own books our own kalam and our own fiqh. We have our own Imams some of whom we share with you. I listened to the Zaydi arguments and the 12er ones and found the Zaydiyyah far more convincing. If you feel like that makes me less of a Muslim then so be it. I go by the Qur'an and the hadith and the Ahl al Bayt to the best of my abilities and I am sure you do the same. I have NOTHING against 12ers or any of their Imams (as). I often go to a 12er masjid. I simply do not agree with 12ers on some points. If you take my views any other way then you are taking them wrong.'

 

Furthermore I KNOW I am not the best representative for my madhab because I am not a scholar so there are some things that I may not answer to your satisfaction. ALL of you are welcome to come to salvationark.com or my group on FB The Zaidi School of Thought where there are more knowledgeable brothers who can better answer your questions. Beyond that  the Imam Rassi Society has SEVERAL articles about Zaydi kalam aqeedah and fiqh readily available on line for all to see.

 

May Allah guide us all

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I am a Zaydi. we have our own books our own kalam and our own fiqh. We have our own Imams some of whom we share with you. I listened to the Zaydi arguments and the 12er ones and found the Zaydiyyah far more convincing. If you feel like that makes me less of a Muslim then so be it. I go by the Qur'an and the hadith and the Ahl al Bayt to the best of my abilities and I am sure you do the same. I have NOTHING against 12ers or any of their Imams (as). I often go to a 12er masjid. I simply do not agree with 12ers on some points. If you take my views any other way then you are taking them wrong.'

 

Furthermore I KNOW I am not the best representative for my madhab because I am not a scholar so there are some things that I may not answer to your satisfaction. ALL of you are welcome to come to salvationark.com or my group on FB The Zaidi School of Thought where there are more knowledgeable brothers who can better answer your questions. Beyond that  the Imam Rassi Society has SEVERAL articles about Zaydi kalam aqeedah and fiqh readily available on line for all to see.

 

May Allah guide us all

 

I don't think it makes you less of a muslim but I do think it can take one towards the wrong direction either presently or in the future especially when opportunities arise and we don't know what to do and who to follow. Its good that you go to the 12er mosque as it contributes to unity and softening of the hearts. But if one is sincere, then Allah will guide us inshAllah

Edited by race
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I don't think it makes you less of a muslim but I do think it can take one towards the wrong direction either presently or in the future especially when opportunities arise and we don't know what to do and who to follow. Its good that you go to the 12er mosque as it contributes to unity and softening of the hearts. But if one is sincere, then Allah will guide us inshAllah

Exactly.

We must know what to do and who to follow. This is why the Imamate must be declared publicly and why 1,100 years in ghayba is unacceptable in my view. It seriously impedes our ability to know what to do and who to follow

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Exactly.

We must know what to do and who to follow. This is why the Imamate must be declared publicly and why 1,100 years in ghayba is unacceptable in my view. It seriously impedes our ability to know what to do and who to follow

So who is your imam of this age?

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Our most recent Imam Majideen al Muayyadi (as) died in 2007. A picture of and info about him is available right on the home page of azzaidah.com

Lets move this discussion to the zaidi thread.

Edited by PureEthics
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Exactly.

We must know what to do and who to follow. This is why the Imamate must be declared publicly and why 1,100 years in ghayba is unacceptable in my view. It seriously impedes our ability to know what to do and who to follow

 

Brother you are getting me wrong. We already follow Imam even while he is in his ghayba. He has made that arrangement for us. It does not matter whether the Imam is hidden or not. 1100 years in ghayba is nothing, it can be longer and still work. I don't have time to enter into a debate due to university exams coming up but if time permits, I will expand more on this concept and the person you take to be your Imam. What I meant was if you do not follow the system of taqleed as set out in the shia creed, you would not know where to go and who to follow, or what to do in a particular circumstance with full belief that it is the right path.

Edited by race
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