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Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

Necessity Of Imamah (An Intellectual Argument)

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Very simple and profound logic.

 

 

This verse obliges the Muslims to obey two things: First, to obey Allah; second, to obey Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr). The arrangement of the words shows that the obedience of Ulul-Amr is as much obligatory as is the obedience of the Messenger because Qur’an uses just one verb for both of them without repeating the verb again.

 

Naturally, it means that Ulul-Amr should be of the same importance as the Messenger; otherwise Allah would not have joined them together in this verse (Waw of Atf) under one verb. Interesting to note that Allah employs a separate verb for Himself before mentioning the Messenger and Ulul-Amr which shows that Allah has higher authority than that of the Messenger and Ulul-Amr.

 

Do you want me to bring forth more verses that command us to obey Allah [swt] and obey the Prophet [saw] but make no mention of "ulil amr"?  Or, did you not read the ones I already shared?

 

Obeying "ulil amr", as I have shown through authentic hadiths, is conditional.  We are to obey them as long as they do not go against Islam.  Also, the fact that there are numerous verses that command us who to obey (and who not to listen) leave "ulil amr" out - except one - appeals to the reflecting mind that obeying "ulil amr", at all times and in all conditions, is not Islamic.  The sane, reflecting mind can see that, coupled with the fact that the word "atee" is only used for Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw].  Lastly, the verse commands us to refer our disputes to Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw] which proves:

 

1.  The ulil amr are not infallible and they are not to be approached or obeyed at all times.

 

2.  The ulil amr are not infallible if disputes arise in their presence.  Furthermore, they are not those whom we should refer to in case of these disputes (hence, no infallibility and thus it offers no support to your claim of Imamat).

Edited by muslim720

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Do you want me to bring forth more verses that command us to obey Allah [swt] and obey the Prophet [saw] but make no mention of "ulil amr"?  Or, did you not read the ones I already shared?

 

Obeying "ulil amr", as I have shown through authentic hadiths, is conditional.  We are to obey them as long as they do not go against Islam.  Also, the fact that there are numerous verses that command us who to obey (and who not to listen) leave "ulil amr" out - except one - appeals to the reflecting mind that obeying "ulil amr", at all times and in all conditions, is not Islamic.  The sane, reflecting mind can see that, coupled with the fact that the word "atee" is only used for Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw].  Lastly, the verse commands us to refer our disputes to Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw] which proves:

 

1.  The ulil amr are not infallible and they are not to be approached or obeyed at all times.

 

2.  The ulil amr are not infallible if disputes arise in their presence.  Furthermore, they are not those whom we should refer to in case of these disputes (hence, no infallibility and thus it offers no support to your claim of Imamat).

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1.  you couldnt tell me single times how non present prophets could help Rasul sas which includes Isa a.s in ghayba?

 

2.  regarding scholars books i provide you the pages read them instead of making silly excuses, whenever i talked with nasbis

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1.  Brother you talk about not knowing arabic yet your trying to give us a lesson? Brother Ahmed asked you to translate the verse..

 

2.  The point is Allah has commanded us and we must obey. For you to take a hadith over a quranic verse is astonishing... The readers can see how you sunnis twist and turn verses that are explicitly clear. 

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Muslim720:
 
Obeying "ulil amr", as I have shown through authentic hadiths, is conditional.  We are to obey them as long as they do not go against Islam.  Also, the fact that there are numerous verses that command us who to obey (and who not to listen) leave "ulil amr" out - except one - appeals to the reflecting mind that obeying "ulil amr", at all times and in all conditions, is not Islamic.  The sane, reflecting mind can see that, coupled with the fact that the word "atee" is only used for Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw].  Lastly, the verse commands us to refer our disputes to Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw] which proves:
 
1.  The ulil amr are not infallible and they are not to be approached or obeyed at all times.
 
2.  The ulil amr are not infallible if disputes arise in their presence.  Furthermore, they are not those whom we should refer to in case of these disputes (hence, no infallibility and thus it offers no support to your claim of Imamat).

 

 

You said that "atee" is explicitly only used for Allah and his messenger(3) not for the Uli l Amr, this is also wrong, the word is also explicitly used for the Uli l amr.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ

 

You made the following claims, which I have already responded to but I will again, I don't mind.

 

You claimed:

 

1- The verse is conditional, in that if disputes arise with the Uli l amr we are to return to the Qur'an and Sunnah, hence the Uli l amr are obeyed conditionally and are not ma'sum.

 

2- The verse says "return to the Allah and his Messenger", it does not say "return to the Uli l Amr", hence the Uli l Amr are not infallible.

 

 

Regarding the first point, let us look at the verse.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ

 

فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

 

There are 4 entities mentioned in this verse, and only one being addressed (the believers). The four entities are Allah, the messenger, the people of authority, and the believers, the believers are being addressed only, this is obvious and agreed upon.

 

The word "minkum" is an adverb of place, not of identity. For example we find in the following verse

 

بَلْ عَجِبُوا أَن جَاءَهُم مُّنذِرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَقَالَ الْكَافِرُونَ هَٰذَا شَيْءٌ عَجِيبٌ

 

"But they wonder that there has come to them a Warner from among themselves. So the Unbelievers say: "This is a wonderful thing!"

 

The Arabic uses "minhum" regarding the Prophet (as) and the kuffar, however no one says that this means that the prophet (as) is a part of the kuffar (nauzbillah) even the word the word "minhum (from them) is present. This is an adverb of place and not of identity, likewise when we read the verse :

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ

 

It is not that the people of authority are equal or of the same identity of those being address in this verse, but rather it is an adverb of place meaning that the people of authority are present among them and not actually "them", and this is absolutely clear.

 

Secondly this verse is addressing the believers by the indicative phrase "ya ayyahallatheena".

 

Thirdly when the Qur'an says that if disputes arise to refer to the Qur'and and Sunnah, this is not talking about disputes being arisen between the believers and the people of authority because the Qur'an does not address them nor does it include them grammatically, but rather it is referring to the group of Muslims arguing from among themselves (this also ties into the second point which I'll get to).

We know this because the verse is addressing the 1st entity (the believers) only  throughout the entire verse. Please take note of the pronouns and their related words which I will color in red.

 

 

 
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ
 
فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ
 
The word "dispute" has nothing to do with disputing with nor correcting the "Uli l Amr" and this is clearly shown by the grammar.
 
 
As regards to your second point 

 

"2- The verse says "return to the Allah and his Messenger", it does not say "return to the Uli l Amr", hence the Uli l Amr are not infallible."

 

Firstly, the verse is saying to the believers who argue among themselves to refer to Islamic sources, that's it. Obviously this includes those who hold and interpret the Islamic sources (the Uli l Amr). The reason they are not mentioned is because obviously they are not revealing their own sources but rather are using the Qur'an and Sunnah.

1.  Do you know Arabic?  If yes, then I can see why you are so frustrated because as someone who does not know Arabic, I have rendered you helpless.

 

2.  Prove it!  To clarify, I presented to many verses that command us to obey Allah [swt] and obey the Prophet [saw].  Only one of these verses mention "ulil amr."  Rest leave it out.  Then, I presented sahih hadith that show that those with authority must only be obeyed so long as they are within the Islamic framework.

 

Just to rub it in a little more, the verse mentions "those of you who are in authority."  Certainly authority cannot be ascribed to a man who has forsaken all his duties and gone into hiding.

 

Yeah but I can sniff a trick out, especially when someone tries to pull a fast-one on me, by misquoting and misrepresenting sources.  An ignorant is forgiven; a deliberate liar, who lies to misguide others, is not.

 

Now I hope you know the difference between us.

 

 

I didn't lie at all, actually I quoted something as a side note and actually thought that was his actual opinion. But as I said who cares? My argument has nothing to do with razi nor his quote, this thread is has pages full of arguments and rebuttals that you have not even addressed to you yet you are caught up on one quote that honestly was just something I was mentioning on the side. Again I apologize for the mistake, but honestly get over it.

 

You being so caught up on something that is irrelevant to this thread nor the arguments in it shows that you are desperate and cannot actually answer anything that is said to you.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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muslim 720,

 

you said how many books i have thats why to show ignorant people like you scanns are provided from the books....why not you buy those books if you have so much doubt on those and proove us wrong please you are most welcome!

 

2nd so now fst you said it was about people of book? now you said its about prophets?,then you quoting a tafsir keep changing your statements naming both prophets and people of book

diffrence of opinion regarding verses can be found in tafasirs shia sunni both no big deal in that

 

 

tafsir also said whether prophets were preceding them or after them and their people, yes prophet Muhammad sas confirmed what was revealed before him there is no doubt in that but here we get a point when preceding prophet isa a.s was gone to ghayba nor his people were their to help in time of prophet muhammad sas nor his true scripture was present at time of Prophet sas till now(we all know it)

 

still how he was helping Prophet sas?in ghayba?btw also Quran says believers are helpers of each other surah toba 71 then y 12th imam cant.... he can too as his presence birth ghayba is confirm from your books too now please donot say how many books i own lol!  :)

Edited by BrockLesnar

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720 Other thing is when yousaf a.s was in seclusion his people didnt had guide for such long period a sunni scolar tahirul qadri mentioned in his translation of surah yousaf Prophet Yaqub a.s cried 40yrs for yousaf a.s such long period didnt mean Yousaf a.s wasnt the prophet in seclusion times nauzubillah this also reflects that occultation of Imam a.s and his ghayba doesnt mean he a.s aint a guide or imam a.s nauzubillah.

Edited by BrockLesnar

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720 So u said about help of prophets a.s that they would help in a manner fortolding annd confirming each other only?does that mean they cannot help prophet sas in other ways?if no then why not you pray 50prayers instead of 5?coz according to sahih bukhari dead Prophet Musa a.s has helped Prophet Muhammad sas by guiding him about concession of 50 prayers to 5, there Prophet sas met many prophets a.s and dialogued talked with them including isa a.s in ghayba, Musa a.s helped him?what this prooves if passed prophets a.s could talk and help Muhammad sas including isa a.s in ghayba?imam al ghayba imam e zaman a.s can also help and guide, if you have no problens with that hadith in Bukhari, then you should also not have problem with imam al ghayba a.s whose birth and occultation has been mentioned by mutual sources of shia sunni, if youstill have problem then u have to remove that hadith from bukhari and pray 50 prayers.

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When Prophet Isa (a.s) first got raised up, he let his disciples (r.a) guide his followers to the straight path.

Question to Muslim720 - When Prophet Yunus (a.s) was trapped inside a whale for 40 years, what use did this do for his people?

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this sunni source is for those who believe non present people or dead people cannot help and for those who target ghayba of imam e zamana a.s who think person in ghayba couldnt talk or help or guide refference i was talking about in post 79 if they still think the same then they should reject this hadith this is also present in sahih muslim and they should reject ghayba and return of Isa a.s because as per their jewish belief person in ghayba is a coward nauzubillah who hides and cannot guide return or talk but their source reject this belief, if they accept this hadith which is interpreting verse 3:81Quran in other way from bukhari then there should not be any problem in believing ghayba of Imam e Zamana a.s spiritual guidence and return

 

Prophet isa a.s in ghayba talking to Prophet sas greeting him, and Mosa a.s after his death helping and guiding prophet Muhammad sas by will of Allah swt qule shaieen qadir

 

 Narrated Abu Dhar: Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad I is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.' Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet ) met Adarn on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus. Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we '' reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."  (Book #8, Hadith #345) SAHIH BUKHARI online hadith search

 

Narrated Malik bin Sasaa: That the Prophet talked to them about the night of his Ascension to the Heavens. He said, "(Then Gabriel took me) and ascended up till he reached the second heaven where he asked for the gate to be opened, but it was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'I am Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' He replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' He said, 'Yes.' When we reached over the second heaven, I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and jesus who were cousins. Gabriel said, 'These are John (Yahya) and jesus, so greet them.' I greeted them and they returned the greeting saying, 'Welcome, O Pious Brother and Pious Prophet!;' "  (Book #55, Hadith #640) bukhari

Edited by BrockLesnar

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diffrence of opinion regarding verses can be found in tafasirs shia sunni both no big deal in that

 

 

 

You charged me of making excuses and not accepting Sunni books, look who is making excuses now to evade what Ayatollah Tabatabai wrote, lol!

 

The reason why I mentioned that this covenant applied to the People of the Book - and did not address the part about Prophets [asws] - is because the part regarding Prophets [asws] helping Rasulullah [saw] (as you alluded to yourself) cannot apply to the Imams [ra] of the Shia.  Hence, I wanted to clarify that the others commanded to help Rasulullah [saw] were the People of the Book, not Imams [ra].

 

Run along, kid!

Edited by muslim720

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720 you are so desparate to make replies without even reading what i quoted did i deny my source if yes please tell me where?donot lol so much coz its making you more ignorant read my posts carefully then reply.

 

we donot run any where we make others run alhamdulillah we r followers of Ahl bayt a.s we donot leave ground like 1 2 3 its you who run away from threads like you ran away in thread omar khtab fleeing of battle wth no replies to me and what you did if you read your post before you excluded prophets from verse thats why i said you deny the verse, then tafsir you quoted me didnot excluded prophets a.s from verse like you did nor i denied that tafsir but i posted some more posts for you regarding that verse and tafsir but you just responded like ignorants without reading them.

it cannot apply to imams ra? haaaaha the thing is prophets were humans and they died after that they helped prophet sas ISA A.S IN GHAYBA talked with Muhammad sas too i showed you from bukhari if you still reject it then you have to pray 50 prayers instead of 5 coz dead Musa a.s provide guidence to Muhammad sas to make concession in it and as per you people who died or in ghayba r cowards cannot help talk or guide nauzubillah or you have to reject bukhari muslim as top most athourities of sunnis as the narration is authentic and shahih

 

so where is this interpretation you get Imams a.s cannot or imam a.s in occultation other then prophets a.s donot have ability for it or Allah swt donot allow them?please would you like to tell us where u read that?(its funny fst salafis said no one can help but just Allah now they agree to prophets a.s can help but Imams a.s cant hahaha )nasbis are pure clowns

 

720 and yes i still charge you because you reject your sources and make silly excuses.

Edited by BrockLesnar

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This topic, as ibn-Ahmed would appreciate, is not about copy-pasting material from anti-Shia or anti-Sunni websites.  Believe me, if I start that game, I will dump more than 200 pages worth of material, burying you so deep in them that you would wish you never took this approach.

 

This is an intellectual discussion but you are turning it into anything but intellectual.

 

As for your mention of dead people helping the Prophet [saw] then it does nothing for Imamah.  Remember, the point here is to prove the intellectual necessity for having Imams.  The hadiths that you have brought forth from Sahih Bukhari talk about Musa [asws], 'Isa [asws] and Yahya [asws], not Imams [ra].  Those prophets [asws] were far greater than your Imams [ra] and their help does not help your cause.  

 

Thus far, you have only proved how other prophets [asws] helped Rasulullah [saw].  I also showed you that each prophet [asws] helped the one that came before him by affirming his prophethood.  In the case of 'Isa [asws], he confirmed the advent of Rasulullah [saw].  This, too, is a way by which prophets [asws] helped Rasulullah [saw].  I am sure there are many other ways that the scholars can bring forth.  But none of this does anything to prove Imamat, neither textually, nor factually and certainly not intellectually.


 

it cannot apply to imams ra? haaaaha the thing is prophets were humans and they died after that they helped prophet sas ISA A.S IN GHAYBA talked with Muhammad sas

 

Your Imams [ra] are not on the same pedestal as the other prophets [asws].  Instead of rejecting the Qur'an, when it clearly establishes the superiority of the prophets [asws] of the past (over people) in favor of your Imams [ra], read the Qur'an and understand it in its entirety.

 

Or, read my signature to get your brain cells, if any, to start functioning.

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720 donot cry please this is not copy paste this is just answer to ignorant like you who say why is imam a.s hiding why is he coward etc

nauzubillah

 

this is reply for you which you cannot refute regarding copy paste i can do much more then you trust me but you cannot say this an off topic discussion

 

i provide you many questions from your sources which prooven dead or people in ghayba can talk guide and help too if your scholars have no issues in that?

 

then why you are having so much issues with ghayba of 12th imam a.s his guidence etc as you said him hiding this that he cant help bla bla

 

thats y my purpose is to show you that he can help too if he cannot then please proove it in light of hadiths i given you and questions, so once again not copy paste stuff this is an answer to you refute it if you can...you just said its not about imamah etc like that no intellectual answers...with no proofs and you may read these ahadiths online google hadith search you can study them or present them doesnt mean its copy paste

 

so what result in end you accepted prophets a.s help rusul sas can but you said imams a.s cannot with ur stubborness and  no prooves, so lastly thing is, its Allah's will who is quli shaieen qadir can give ability of help to dead people Musa a.s prophet isa a.s in ghayba then imam al ghayba a.s being imam too as he was not dead can help us i prooved it to you, you cannot say he cannot also syed murtada and i gve u yusuf a.s seclusion story but found no intellectual replies so plz donot call him(our 12th imam a.s) hiding coward etc nauzubillah coz if you do that blame goes on this Quran hadith and bukhari.


i read your signature it prooves nothing 720, we donot say imams a.s, r prophets...or their were sahifa or revelation come on them nauzubillah.

Edited by BrockLesnar

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i read your signature it prooves nothing 720, we donot say imams a.s, r prophets...or their were sahifa or revelation come on them nauzubillah.

 

its Allah's will who is quli shaieen qadir can give ability of help to dead people Musa a.s prophet isa a.s in ghayba then imam al ghayba a.s being imam 

 

There is the contradiction in your own thinking.  You say that Imams [ra] were not prophets [asws] but you put them on the same pedestal, in fact on a higher one.  If the 12th Imam was chosen as the one to guide people, or even help people, while in ghayba, then his role would have been made clear just as it was made clear in the case of Musa [asws] and 'Isa [asws].

 

Lastly, the help that you refer to was delivered when the Prophet [saw] ascended to the Heaven.  Musa [asws] and 'Isa [asws] are in Heaven with Allah [swt] - near to the source of all knowledge - but your Imam is hiding in some cave.  Doesn't add up, does it?  

 

i read your signature it prooves nothing 720, we donot say imams a.s, r prophets...or their were sahifa or revelation come on them nauzubillah.

 

But you say that the Imams [ra] are higher than the Prophets [asws].  You can find such claims here on ShiaChat......don't have to go too far!

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muslim 720 please proove us our imam a.s in hiding in cave?proove us where we say imam a.s rcv revelation?

i say he is in heaven?can you proove me wrong? or give us the proove he is hiding in cave as you are screaming from many years like your jewish forefathers who blame isa a.s to be a coward

 

 

if you read surah fatiha where Allah said ask him for help, but prophets a.s helped Muhammad sas this has been prooved from bukhari

 

now if i say why you put  prophets a.s in same pedestial with Allah then this would be so ignorant same like you are showing your ignorance same Allah swt mentioned he give you life but isa a.s gave life to death Allah swt explains in Quran why

 

now if i say you as per your 1year old baby kid logic you are putting prophets a.s and Allah in same position or its contradiction in your thinking?does that makes sense to you? if yes then no one is more ignorant then you

 

+ your scholars have confirmed birth of Mahdi a.s and ghayba why not you create your blog and refute it as your all antishia forefathers couldnt refute shiapen logically like you didnot refuted my arguments on that till now please you do it if you can coz bro screaming like jews without any logic doesnt help you its just waisting yours and my time  :)

Edited by BrockLesnar

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Any one can read my posts no where i said imams a.s r higher than prophets a.s or no where we claim ever imams a.s bring new law or they get revelation, thats all nasbi decieving clowns do when they get owned or when they cannot proove their points like jewishnasbi720 put nonsensical blames on shias and waist their time what a looser and deciever.

Edited by BrockLesnar

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When I am not busy with life, I take a step back (from these discussions) to ensure that my pride is not causing me to charge on in an attempt to come out as the "winner."  If my approach is harsh, then every person with different opinions or beliefs will actually be more repelled by what I want to convince them of.  Just a reminder!

 

Therefore, inshAllah, I will read the posts a few more times, especially the one by ibn-Ahmed, and respond when I know it is not my pride that is causing me to come up with hasty responses.  If not, I will have plenty of time over the weekend.

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Muslim720 you are my brother and Inshallah we both accompany each other to Jannah, ameen ya rab.

 

Allah ihdeena il siraat l mustaqeem

 

Feelings are mutual, my brother, and may Allah [swt] bless you, your family and children (in future, if you don't have any now).  And may Allah [swt] admit you and your family to Jannatul Firdaus!

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It doesn't contradict anything because this verse is telling us to following the Imams unconditionally, where as the ulema are followed based upon the condition that they are using the words of the Imams (as).

 

Following the scholars who take the hadith from the Imams (as) does not contradict the fact that we only follow the Imams.

 

A clear example would be when Hisham Ibn Hakam would teach fiqh to his students and give fataawa for Imam jafar as saadiq (as).

 

It seems I have to keep repeating myself because you are not understanding the point. All you are doing is making an exception to the interpretation of the verse, which contradicts your argument. 

 

Using 'conditions' as a loophole won't suffice, and totally irrelevant, even following an Imam has a condition - they have to be divinely appointed. 

  1. Marjas are 'those in authority of you' and declared wajib, which is contradicts your claim that the verse speaks only about divinely appointed Imam's.
  2. Imam's are not available hence your interpretation contradicts reality. (Hence your example flawed)

This habit of taking any verse that has words authority/leader/imam/etc., and trying to aligning it with the Shia agenda is becoming a norm. Read the rest of the verse:

 

"...then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end."

 

If there is a quarrel, it doesn't state refer it to an Imam (authority from among you), it states only Allah and Prophet, there is NO 3rd entity (divinely appointed Imams) as you claim, even though the 3rd entity (authority from among you) is clearly mentioned to be obeyed upon yet not referred to. Hence if you believe that this verse states to obey Imams ('authority from among you') yet in the same verse excludes them to be referred upon proves they are not divinely appointed authority. 

 

Regardless, you can't even refer to your Imam's anyways as they are unavailable, you refer to fallibles. 

 

Obeying the marja is not wajib. It has conditions.

 

Not every shia has to obey a marja or follow a marja. If one has enough knowledge himself to derive rulings etc, then he does not need to follow a marja. Who do you think seestani or khamanai etc are in taqleed of? no one, so your point does not stand.

 

It is wajib on every Shia to follow a marja unless he, himself, is a Marja.

It is wajib on every Shia to follow an Imam unless he, himself, is an Imam.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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It seems I have to keep repeating myself because you are not understanding the point. All you are doing is making an exception to the interpretation of the verse, which contradicts your argument. 
 
Using 'conditions' as a loophole won't suffice, and totally irrelevant, even following an Imam has a condition - they have to be divinely appointed. 
Marjas are 'those in authority of you' and declared wajib, which is contradicts your claim that the verse speaks only about divinely appointed Imam's.

 

 

The verse isn't referring to them, the words "awli l amr" in this verse are speaking about the infallible due to the fact that Allah is commanding you to follow them unconditionally.

 

 
Imam's are not available hence your interpretation contradicts reality. (Hence your example flawed)

 

 

 

This was already debated and answered in the same thread, I said 

 

"we have two necessary principles.

 
1- The guidance of the Imam.
2- The protection of the Imam.
 
If the guidance of the Imam is necessarily present (Allah appoints him), but then the people based upon their free will and choice choose to abuse and kill this Imam, then another necessary principle shall come into play that calls for the protection of the Imam, this is because the Imam carries with him the door of mercy which Allah uses to put onto his creation and also because the Imam carries the entire affairs of the Muslims in his hands including the existence of the religion itself.
 
This necessary principle of protecting the Imam thus logically overrides the first principle due to the fact that it is more pressing and more reasonable to put the Imam into ghayba  lest it would cause his death, nor it is more beneficial to not give Imams at all in the first place, the only logical alternative left is an Imam being protected. I hope this is clear to you now."
 
 
 

"...then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end."
 
If there is a quarrel, it doesn't state refer it to an Imam (authority from among you), it states only Allah and Prophet, there is NO 3rd entity (divinely appointed Imams) as you claim, even though the 3rd entity (authority from among you) is clearly mentioned to be obeyed upon yet not referred to. Hence if you believe that this verse states to obey Imams ('authority from among you') yet in the same verse excludes them to be referred upon proves they are not divinely appointed authority. 
 
Regardless, you can't even refer to your Imam's anyways as they are unavailable, you refer to fallibles. 

 

 

 

This was also clearly refuted. I said 

 

"You said that "atee" is explicitly only used for Allah and his messenger(3) not for the Uli l Amr, this is also wrong, the word is also explicitly used for the Uli l amr.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ

 

You made the following claims, which I have already responded to but I will again, I don't mind.

 

You claimed:

 

1- The verse is conditional, in that if disputes arise with the Uli l amr we are to return to the Qur'an and Sunnah, hence the Uli l amr are obeyed conditionally and are not ma'sum.

 

2- The verse says "return to the Allah and his Messenger", it does not say "return to the Uli l Amr", hence the Uli l Amr are not infallible.

 

 

Regarding the first point, let us look at the verse.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ

 

فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

 

There are 4 entities mentioned in this verse, and only one being addressed (the believers). The four entities are Allah, the messenger, the people of authority, and the believers, the believers are being addressed only, this is obvious and agreed upon.

 

The word "minkum" is an adverb of place, not of identity. For example we find in the following verse

 

بَلْ عَجِبُوا أَن جَاءَهُم مُّنذِرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَقَالَ الْكَافِرُونَ هَٰذَا شَيْءٌ عَجِيبٌ

 

"But they wonder that there has come to them a Warner from among themselves. So the Unbelievers say: "This is a wonderful thing!"

 

The Arabic uses "minhum" regarding the Prophet  (as) and the kuffar, however no one says that this means that the prophet  (as) is a part of the kuffar (nauzbillah) even the word the word "minhum (from them) is present. This is an adverb of place and not of identity, likewise when we read the verse :

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ

 

It is not that the people of authority are equal or of the same identity of those being address in this verse, but rather it is an adverb of place meaning that the people of authority are present among them and not actually "them", and this is absolutely clear.

 

Secondly this verse is addressing the believers by the indicative phrase "ya ayyahallatheena".

 

Thirdly when the Qur'an says that if disputes arise to refer to the Qur'and and Sunnah, this is not talking about disputes being arisen between the believers and the people of authority because the Qur'an does not address themnor does it include them grammatically, but rather it is referring to the group of Muslims arguing from among themselves (this also ties into the second point which I'll get to).

We know this because the verse is addressing the 1st entity (the believers) only  throughout the entire verse. Please take note of the pronouns and their related words which I will color in red.

 

 

 
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ
 
فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ
 
The word "dispute" has nothing to do with disputing with nor correcting the "Uli l Amr" and this is clearly shown by the grammar.
 
 
As regards to your second point 

 

"2- The verse says "return to the Allah and his Messenger", it does not say "return to the Uli l Amr", hence the Uli l Amr are not infallible."

 

Firstly, the verse is saying to the believers who argue among themselves to refer to Islamic sources, that's it. Obviously this includes those who hold and interpret the Islamic sources (the Uli l Amr). The reason they are not mentioned is because obviously they are not revealing their own sources but rather are using the Qur'an and Sunnah."

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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I thought about this topic and realized that the verse gives us a resolution in case of a dispute.  Let us look at the verse once again.

 

"O you who believe!  Obey Allāh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority.  (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allāh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allāh and in the Last Day.  That is better and more suitable for final determination."  (Qur'an 4:59)

 

As per the verse, let us refer our dispute to Allah [swt] first.  In the very same surah, Surah An-Nisa, you will find three other verses that command us to obey Allah [swt] and Rasulullah [saw] but leave out the mention of ulil amr.

 

Allah [swt] says:

 

 

 

And obey Allah and the (Prophetic) Messenger that you may obtain mercy. (3:132)

 

Those are the limits set by Allah, and whoso obeys Allah and His (Prophetic) Messenger, He (Allah) will make him enter Gardens (in Paradise) underneath which rivers flow, to abide therein. And that is the great success. (4:13)

 

And whoso obeys Allah and the (Prophetic) Messenger, they will be with those to whom Allah has shown favour, of the Prophets and the Truthful and the Martyrs and the Righteous, and the best of Companions are they! (4:69)

 

Whoever obeys the (Prophetic) Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah; and whoever turns away, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them. (4:80)

 

And the believing (Muslim) men and the believing (Muslim) women are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and they establish regular Prayer and they give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they obey Allah and His (Prophetic) Messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Undoubtedly, Allah is Mighty, Wise. (9:71)

 

And he who obeys Allah and His (Prophetic) Messenger, and has reverential awe of Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him): then these it is that are the successful. (24:52)

 

Say (O Beloved Prophet): “Obey Allah and obey the (Prophetic) Messenger. But if you turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and you for that placed on you, and if you obey him, you will be rightly guided. And the responsibility of the (Prophetic) Messenger is only to convey (the Message) clearly. (24:54)

 

And establish regular Prayer and give the obligatory charity (Zakat) and obey the (Prophetic) Messenger, so that mercy may be shown to you (from Allah). (24:56)

 

O you who believe! Have reverential awe of Allah and speak the right word. He (Allah) will set right your deeds for you and will forgive you your sins, and whosoever obeys Allah and His (Prophetic) Messenger, he has indeed gained a mighty success. (33:70-71)

 

The bedouins say: “We believe”. Say (to them, O beloved Prophet): “You do not (yet) believe, but rather say ‘We have submitted’, for the Faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His (Prophetic) Messenger, He will not diminish anything of (the reward of) your deeds. Surely, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The (true) believers are only those who have believed in Allah and His (Prophetic) Messenger and afterward, have never doubted but have struggled with their wealth and their persons in the Way of Allah. It is they who are the truthful. (49:14-15)

 

And obey Allah and obey the (Prophetic) Messenger; but if you turn away, then (know that) the duty of our (Prophetic) Messenger is only to convey (the Message) clearly. (64:12)

 

 

Now, let us refer our dispute to the Prophet [saw]:

 

 


Narrated Ma’qil:  Allah’s Apostle said, “If any ruler having the authority to rule Muslim subjects dies while he is deceiving them, Allah will forbid Paradise for him.” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 265)

 

The Prophet added, “He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the Ameer, obeys me, and he who disobeys the Ameer, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight and where they should seek protection. If the Imam orders people with righteousness and rules justly, then he will be rewarded for that, and if he does the opposite, he will be responsible for that.”  (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 204)

 

Many more narrations exist that prove that obedience towards ulil amr is conditional but that should suffice.

 

Therefore, it is clear that obedience to ulil amr is not tantamount to obedience to Allah [swt] and the Prophet [saw].  Furthermore, these ulil amr cannot be infallible since disputes can arise at their time AND they are not to be consulted (in case of a dispute).  Lastly, these ulil amr must have authority and therefore be present in our midst (for them to be obeyed to begin with).  Unfortunately, the 12th Imam does not make the cut.

 

But I found something that I want someone to verify, since I do not have a copy of Nahjul Balagha (though I plan on getting one, inshAllah).  Let us see what Imam Ali [ra] - one the alleged ulil amr according to our Shia brothers - preached to see if he makes it compulsory for people to obey him (and his sons) AND appeal to their "infallibility" by referring to them for dispute resolution.

 

"When you are faced with problems which you cannot solve or with a difficult situation from which you cannot escape or when uncertain and doubtful circumstances confuse and perplex you, then turn to Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) because Allah has thus ordered those whom He wants to guide, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger”.  The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the clear and explicit orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his Sunnah about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.”  (Nahjul Balagha, letter 53)

 

Why didn't Imam Ali [ra] ask people to obey him and refer to him in case of disputes if he was one of the ulil amr (the way you portray it to be)?

 

Also, Imam Ali [ra] speaks the truth and distances himself from the allegation that he is sinless and infallible in the following excerpt.

 

"Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them.  Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring . I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I.  Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah, other than Whom there is no Lord except Him.  He owns our selves which we do not own.  He took us from where we were towards what means prosperity to us. He altered our straying into guidance and gave us intelligence after blindness.”  (Nahjul Balgha, sermon 215)

Edited by muslim720

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Brother Muslim 720 u r putting too much in it , just leave it Bruv

 

Brother, I appreciate your input but our Shia brothers have a right to make, and present their, claims.  I am not here to convince, or guide, anyone except familiarize myself with their points-of-view.

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This post does not advance the 12er perspective. It says that an Imam guides and leads the Ummah both religiously and politically. The problem, for 12ers, is that MOST of their 12 Imams (as) DID NOT lead politically or even religiously since many of them never even openly claimed the Imamate

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This post does not advance the 12er perspective. It says that an Imam guides and leads the Ummah both religiously and politically. The problem, for 12ers, is that MOST of their 12 Imams (as) DID NOT lead politically or even religiously since many of them never even openly claimed the Imamate

 

 

If you read and understood the argument, it is irrelevant that most of them did not lead politically.

 

The Imams (as) not leading politically is reflected upon the ummah's neglect of the Imams (as), not that Allah did not make their rule available necessarily due to adl and latf, there is a difference.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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This post does not advance the 12er perspective. It says that an Imam guides and leads the Ummah both religiously and politically. The problem, for 12ers, is that MOST of their 12 Imams (as) DID NOT lead politically or even religiously since many of them never even openly claimed the Imamate

 

(bismillah)

 

The son of Mary [a] was similarly denied, by his enemies, from fulfilling one aspect of his role as the Messiah to the Children of Israel. Would you dare accuse him or the Koran of falsely claiming he is the Messiah?

 

 

Ws.

Edited by al-Burooj

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother Ibn Ahmed Aliyy, a very good article but I feel as if this article is incomplete and while you may like to write more on the issue yet the discussion took its own twists and turns. I will be glad to read more apart from question answer session later generated after your OP. May Allah SWT reward you for your efforts. Jazak Allah

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(bismillah)

 

The son of Mary [a] was similarly denied, by his enemies, from fulfilling one aspect of his role as the Messiah to the Children of Israel. Would you dare accuse him or the Koran of falsely claiming he is the Messiah?

 

 

Ws.

That is not an accurate comparison by any stretch  of the imagination. There is no issue of whether Isa (as) CLAIMED to be the Messiah, nor is there any dispute about whether he attempted to discharge his duties or whether he called the people to follow his guidance and leadership. Many of those whom the 12ers claim as Imams of the Age did not even claim such a title or even casll upon people to accept their leadership. So I am not talking about whether or not they were successful but whether or not they even TRIED.

 

Of course as a Zaydi I do not believe in divine appointment anyway (though 12ers only seem to halfway believe in it since they also claim that Imams were appointed by their fathers) so I do not accuse them of being lackluster in fulfilling their duties. I simply doubt they were ever "given the job " so to speak.

If you read and understood the argument, it is irrelevant that most of them did not lead politically.

 

The Imams (as) not leading politically is reflected upon the ummah's neglect of the Imams (as), not that Allah did not make their rule available necessarily due to adl and latf, there is a difference.

Many of them did not lead AT ALL. This is the problem. Without even claiming the leadership and requesting the people to follow them then they are not leaders. A leader , by definition, leads. Since the definition of imam is leader there is a problem here. How are these men leaders if indeed they never led ? FORGET the political/governmental aspect. Imam Hassan (as) did not govern, nor did Imam Zayd (as) but I do not dispute their Imamates. I do, however , dispute the leadership of those who never even claimed to be leaders.

 

Please do not tell me they were in danger either. The Zaydi Imams (as) were also in danger. Indeed Imam Ali (as) fought against muawiyah (la), Hussein (as) fought against hopeless odds, Imam Zayd (as) did the same. The Qur'an tells us that those who stay at home are not equal to those who fight (Surah an Nisa Ayat 95). So how can those who did not even claim Imamate be equal to those who died in its defense ?

 

Nope. I can't say this post advances the 12er argument

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Many of them did not lead AT ALL. This is the problem. Without even claiming the leadership and requesting the people to follow them then they are not leaders. A leader , by definition, leads. Since the definition of imam is leader there is a problem here. How are these men leaders if indeed they never led ? FORGET the political/governmental aspect. Imam Hassan  (as) did not govern, nor did Imam Zayd  (as) but I do not dispute their Imamates. I do, however , dispute the leadership of those who never even claimed to be leaders.

 

Please do not tell me they were in danger either. The Zaydi Imams  (as) were also in danger. Indeed Imam Ali  (as) fought against muawiyah (la), Hussein  (as) fought against hopeless odds, Imam Zayd  (as)did the same. The Qur'an tells us that those who stay at home are not equal to those who fight (Surah an Nisa Ayat 95). So how can those who did not even claim Imamate be equal to those who died in its defense ?

 

Nope. I can't say this post advances the 12er argument

 

 

 

This is like saying that if Ibrahim (as) was sent to the people as an Imam, and the people rejected him and his leadership, then according to you he is no longer an Imam, sorry but this is obviously wrong.

 

Your argument is that once an Imam (as) does not lead, he loses the status of Imamate, very well. Do us a favor, show me anywhere in our hadith books where the Imams (as) claim they are not leading the believers barring taqiyya? You are confusing two different things, just because the Ummah does not follow them out of their arrogance and ignorance, does not mean that Allah did not appoint them as leaders with the active function as being leaders. 

 

 

You also contradict yourself a lot, for example you said in the above post

 

Many of them did not lead AT ALL. This is the problem. Without even claiming the leadership and requesting the people to follow them then they are not leaders. A leader , by definition, leads. Since the definition of imam is leader there is a problem here. How are these men leaders if indeed they never led ?

 

 

 

Then you said 

 

 

You are twisting my words. I DID NOT say that an Imam must govern to be an Imam.  I am saying that to fit the hadith he must govern because these 12 khalifa hadiths indicate rulers. One can be an Imam without ruling. My mathaab is clear about that. Imam Al Hassan  (as) didn't govern and neither did Imam Zayd  (as). I DO NOT dispute their Imamates. 

 

 

 

Also the Imams (as) did claim their Imamate according to us, they called people to it and to others they kept silent.

 

If you're arguing that an Imam must claim their leadership publicly in order to be an Imam, then provide your proof either rationally or by text.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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This is like saying that if Ibrahim (as) was sent to the people as an Imam, and the people rejected him and his leadership, then according to you he is no longer an Imam, sorry but this is obviously wrong.

 

Your argument is that once an Imam (as) does not lead, he loses the status of Imamate, very well. Do us a favor, show me anywhere in our hadith books where the Imams (as) claim they are not leading the believers barring taqiyya? You are confusing two different things, just because the Ummah does not follow them out of their arrogance and ignorance, does not mean that Allah did not appoint them as leaders with the active function as being leaders. 

 

 

You also contradict yourself a lot, for example you said in the above post

 

Then you said 

 

 

 

 

Also the Imams (as) did claim their Imamate according to us, they called people to it and to others they kept silent.

 

If you're arguing that an Imam must claim their leadership publicly in order to be an Imam, then provide your proof either rationally or by text.

Show me where they proclaimed their Imamate and gave the people a CHANCE to adhere to their Imamate. And NO what I am saying does NOT apply to Prophet Ibrahim (as). He was a Prophet(as). This means that if he simply performs his duties as a messenger and warner then he is still a Prophet. An Imam must lead or at least attempt to. And yes of course they must proclaim their Imamate publicly. How else can the public know who they are ? How can the public/Ummah follow an Imam if he doesn't even tell them he is the Imam ? Come on now this  makes no sense. If you are charged with leading the people then you must at least tell the people that you are their leader. But you guys have this doctrine that simply by existing as a living creature one can be leading. It makes absolutely no sense AT ALL to me and I see ZERO precedent for it in the Qur'an or anywhere else.

 

 

I do not see any contradictions in what I said. It all looks perfectly clear to me. And taqiya makes no sense either since you claim equality for all the Imams (as) They CANNOT be equal because Surah An Nisa Ayat 95 says that those who stay home are not equal to those who fight. So using the Qur'an as a standard an Imam in taqiyah is NOT equal to an Imam such as Hussein (as) who raised the sword. Now one may certainly excel in knowledge and piety whilst staying at home but I/we Zaydiyyah do not equate that with being Imam of the Age

Let me state again that leading and governing are not necessarily the same thing. Governing is leading but there are people in recent history , like Malcolm X, who were certainly leaders but did not govern. The thing is that they LED. They rallied the people to their cause. They organized a following. They told their adherents what they thought the goals should be and how they thought they should get there. Leadership is NOT always governing.

 

Yet most of the 12 khalifas hadiths indicate that they are about people who DO govern. They are the people in charge. In any case there are sahih hadith saying that those will be 12 DESCENDANTS of Fatima (as) which of course excludes your line of Imams because it begins, as ours does, with Imam Ali (as) who is definitely not a descendant. Other hadiths have different numbers etc. In any case without producing the 12th Imam you guys can't prove that the hadith is about your line of Imams anyway since you only have 11 that you can objectively prove were ever born and less than that who said to the world that they were Imams in any sense of the word

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