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Wisdom Lion

Christianity Is Created By Paul

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You take the Qur'an serious but not serious enough to accept its full truth? 

 

Believing that Muhammad was a prophet of God does not interfere with Placid's full devotion to and acceptance for Christianity. 

 

Placid is a gentleman but we differ from him in that he interprets the Quran in a manner to suit his version of Christian beliefs, which accepts Jesus as the highest after God but unlike other Christians, not God.

 

That is not the same as Islam, which also places Jesus in God's inner sanctum but not alone, rather in the company of other prophets.

 

His beliefs and his interpretation of the Quran cannot be reconciled with Islam.

 

In spite of our differences, both Placid and his son are very nice people. 

 

I like to present them to the Islamopohobe pastors that have sprung up in the Western world in the recent past, like mushrooms.    

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Hi Baqar,

Thank you for your recommendation. --- I like to see Christians become better Christians and Muslims become better Muslims.

We are not meant to be the same, or to join together as it says in Surah 5:48.

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Hi Leto,

--- In response to Post 274: --- Yes, I guess you deserve an explanation.

I Have a Pickthall translation of the Quran and he wrote a long intro of the calling of Muhammad and the history of the Muslims.

--- Muhammad had a vision of the angel Gabriel, and he received his Revelations in a ‘trans like state,’ --- However I don’t believe that full Surahs were revealed as they are written in the Quran, --- because certain verses are out of order.

I believe Muhammad was called as a Prophet or Messenger to the Arab people, who were steeped in idolatry. --- For instance, in the Kabah, the house of prayer in Mecca there were some 360 idols, male and female, --- so the people were idolaters, after the way of their fathers.

I am careful to say I only believe the ‘revelations’ which confirm the former Scriptures, as it says in Surah 3:3-4. (The Criterion of right and wrong given to Moses, I believe is the “Code of Ethics” for us all, --- the Ten Commandments.)

Muhammad was called to the ‘Mission’ of destroying idolatry from Arabia and bringing them back to the worship of God. --- There is no indication that he was to start a new religion, although he had followers who were converted to Islam. --- But Islam simply means “Surrender” or ‘Submission” unto God’s will and purpose.

You have to read it to decide for yourself but before Muhammad’s death, he had fulfilled his ‘Mission’ of destroying idolatry, and bringing people back to the worship of One God, and that brought a temporary peace..

A lot of Muslims pay little attention to our Scriptures, so when it says the same in the Quran as in the Gospels, I feel they might read it and then think about it.

For instance, it says of Jesus in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

--- (Is that not what we are taught in the Gospel, ‘fear God with reverential respect, and follow Jesus?)

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

--- (So I ask Muslims, “Can there be a straighter Way?”)

55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

--- The term “I will take thee” in Arabic refers to physical death, and He had to be resurrected before Hi could ascend to God.

--- “I will make those who follow thee ‘superior’ to those who reject faith”

If the Quran repeats, that ‘following Jesus’ is the ‘Way that is straight,’ --- and that God will make those who follow Jesus ‘superior’ to those who reject faith, is that not assurance that we are ‘saved? --- John 5:24.

And the next verse is a warning to those who reject faith:

56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

I believe that in these verses everything is quite Scriptural, except in verse 49, which is showing the healing and deliverance ministry of Jesus, --- the making of a bird is not mentioned in the Gospels, (but it is in some other writings.)

I want to assure you that I am a Christian and I enjoy the privilege of discussing on this inter faith forum, --- It is not our place to say anything but what the Scriptures say. --- There are lots more Christian passages in the Quran that I like to use.

--- Also, there are others who read these posts and there may be some who read this and say, “I didn’t know that it says in the Quran that we should follow Jesus?”

Blessings.

Placid

One of the strangest things I've heard of

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Christian's never killed their apostates, did they :rolleyes:? 

 

Please, its a much more complex matter than you are making it out to be. People left Islam during the Prophet's own life time and they were left to roam about and there is an incident of a man who left Islam only to return and accept the Prophet again, during his life. Don't paint the false picture that Islam believes anyone who decides they aren't Muslim anymore has to be executed, this clearly isn't the case. When one commits an act of treason then this a is a different case altogether. Many countries implement the death penalty for treason but if Islam has a similar law, God forbid. 

 

HI Ali Musaaa, I know I am making a point about Religion and then people who mis-use the religion.

a distinction solitair seems to overlook.

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You are correct. I am not very knowledgeable in Christianity, and I do not understand the Bible - but i never said i was not knowledgeable in history ! I never said I did not understand, and in great detail what has been going on with the Catholic Church. The inquisitions, the witch burnings, the crusades and so on.

 

I read the Bible - and maybe i am completely wrong. If I am wrong, i expect to hear that from the Christians here, that is why i debate.

 

Is Islam better than Christianity? I have no Ida -  well what version of Christianity is it we are talking about ? If it is the original version - the answer is no - it is not better than Islam, because Jesus was a prophet in Islam, and what Jesus was teaching is completely in agreement with Islam. In general I am not one that can judge in such a question, because I do not understand the common version of Christianity that are here today.

 

I understand some parts of the Bible that i have been studying recently - and by talking to friends of mine lately that are theologists. The things I have understood are the things I have written about here lately, but I am in no way what so ever really capable of really understanding the Bible. I think most of my post have made it clear that I don't understand the Bible and that I do not find it easy to understand.

 

I can on the other hand understand when I am fed some strange story that is not logical.... and from what I have red so far in the Bible, it is very challenging to puzzle it together. In Islam that is not difficult for me. Does that mean that Islam is better than Christianity ? I don't know, but it seems like the Qur'an definitely is easier to understand - and of that I am absolutely sure. I have yet to discover something i would consider a lie, or dishonest, or a coverup, or not logical or similar from reading the Qur'an. It is a book that is all logical, easy to understand and it all seems to be complete - at least so far.

 

To your question about death for apostates. What does God say in Christianity that is going to happen to someone that turn their back on God and Christianity ? Someone that was with God, and then turned away ? Are they going to live forever or are they going to die ? I have not read the bible much, but the consequences are horrible according to the bible. You keep on listing these things that are supposed to be bad in Islam - but even me, that are like a child when it comes to knowledge about the Bible can in no time at all pick your arguments apart as false... why is that ?

 

In Christianity you burn in hell for eternity... Christianity burned witches on fires ... you keep bringing up these arguments that are supposed to show how Christianity is better than Islam, but do not realize that every time you say something, there is a darker history in your own religion. That does not mean that I am driving this topic - you and other here are actually driving this forward. You are trying to say that Islam is worse than Christianity, and for every argument I refer to history, and in that history there is darkness hanging over your religion... so why do you continue these arguments ? It is something you can never win, because of history.

 

No matter what you say - there is always going to be a horrible darkness in the history of your religion - to show that Islam comes out as less bad than Christianity. Does that mean that it is true ? No, it simply means that the people that followed and used Christianity over the course of history - are worse than the people that followed Islam. What that means for the religion i can not judge.

 

 

I'll try to answer your points one by one.

You state you have come to some or all of your conclusions by reading the Bible.

You are making the mistake non-Muslim dislikers make of quoting verses out of context and seeing the bad verses and making decisions based on a religion from those passages.

 

You are also making the often repeated mistake of judging a religion based on the actions of its so-called believers rather than the religion itself.

 

I’d like to ask, do you have a degree in (Christian) theology? Are you knowledgeable in Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek or perhaps even Syriac? Have you studied contextual analysis of the Bible verses. The Bible is not a self-study Book, exigiting the Bible takes years of formal study, perhaps a lifetime.

 

This is why solitairr there are thousands of Protestant sects (but only one Catholic Church). Every person makes their own decision and is the final arbiter in interpreting the Bible. They disagree with each other constantly. If I am a member of the Presbyterian Church and I disagree with the Pastor’s interpretation presto I make a new Church called the Reformed Presbyterian Church.

 

Solitairr the Catholic Church does not rely on the Bible Alone to decide on issues of Faith and Morality. We do not believe Scripture Alone is the basis of our Belief. The Church believes in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium (a final body to decide on any issues that come up for questioning, a referee if you like).

 

Your points about the Crusades, Inquisition, Witches etc are a thread itself and too detailed to go into here. If you like we can debate those in a separate thread.

My dear friend Shreek

 

I don't think we should ever discuss  who is better than who - not only in the Internet but just anywhere.

 

That question will always remain subjective and can never be answered.

 

More importantly, it can have serious consequences leading to unwanted violence that we might later regret.

 

Besides, taken in the original version, every religion was probably perfect.

 

We humans make changes to suit our own thinking and wants and cause them, i.e. the religions,  to degrade.

 

Anyway, it is surprising that you come from Lebanon - a country with all sorts of Muslims - Sunnis, Shias as well as Alawis.

 

But your information on Islam is despicably poor. I don't know about other branches of Islam.

 

Because threatening leavers with death is certainly not part of Shia Islam.

 

Imam Ali took action on the Kharijis not because they were leavers, but because they caused mischief in the land, killing,robbing and pillaging.

 

I thinking you are mistaking us with al- Qaida or the Taliban.

 

Please get your facts right.

 

 

Once again, as far as Shia Islam is concerned, that is absolutely untrue.

 

Shia scholars have categorically denied the death penalty for apostates, unless they are guilty of treason or treachery. 

 

 

Quite an aggressive remark!

 

Anyway, as far as we Shias are concerned, we take our strength from the character of the Ahlul Bayt, which, we believe, has few parallels in the history of the universe.

 

I rest my case. 

 

baqar how are you.

It is not only Saudi Arabia or the Taliban that has this admonition.

Iran, a Shia state, also has this punishment, based on Sharia.

can you please explain this discrepancy?

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You are making the mistake non-Muslim dislikers make of quoting verses out of context and seeing the bad verses and making decisions based on a religion from those passages.

 

You are also making the often repeated mistake of judging a religion based on the actions of its so-called believers rather than the religion itself.

 

I’d like to ask, do you have a degree in (Christian) theology? Are you knowledgeable in Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek or perhaps even Syriac? Have you studied contextual analysis of the Bible verses. The Bible is not a self-study Book, exigiting the Bible takes years of formal study, perhaps a lifetime.

 

This is why solitairr there are thousands of Protestant sects (but only one Catholic Church). Every person makes their own decision and is the final arbiter in interpreting the Bible. They disagree with each other constantly. If I am a member of the Presbyterian Church and I disagree with the Pastor’s interpretation presto I make a new Church called the Reformed Presbyterian Church.

 

Solitairr the Catholic Church does not rely on the Bible Alone to decide on issues of Faith and Morality. We do not believe Scripture Alone is the basis of our Belief. The Church believes in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium (a final body to decide on any issues that come up for questioning, a referee if you like).

 

Your points about the Crusades, Inquisition, Witches etc are a thread itself and too detailed to go into here. If you like we can debate those in a separate thread.

 

 

You said to HI Ali Musaaa,

 

"I know I am making a point about Religion and then people who mis-use the religion.

a distinction solitair seems to overlook."

 

You are absolutely judging Islam by the actions of some Muslims, but me that is not a Muslim and not a Christian, have no motive to do judge any of them. You are in fact in several things you have written, not separating the people that mis-use the religion from the religion it self. I am on the other hand clear on this, last time in post 271:

 

"Does that mean that it is true ? No, it simply means that the people that followed and used Christianity over the course of history - are worse than the people that followed Islam. What that means for the religion i can not judge."

 

 

BIBLE:

 

About the Bible. My criticism of the bible is that the bible is extremely complicated,  un-available  - and you probable need a degree in theology to understand something, you probable need to know Hebrew, Armaic, Koine, or perhaps Syriac. You need your contextual analysis and what have you... just as you described, and definitely have to accept that the Bible is not enough as you need other sacred scriptures and the Magesterium .... as you say.  bla bla bla to get it.

 

And that is my point ! So why do you disagree ? You are saying it yourself !

 

When I talk about the Bible - I say - it would be very strange if God gave his word to man in a book they could not understand and read.That is where you and I do not agree. I think it is completely ridiculous that God did this.

 

So my source is YOU !

 

Based on what YOU say to me, i think the Bible is not the word of God in its current form. It is completely confusing and full of contradictions that requires years of theology studies and what not to decipher, as it has obviously been manipulated away from what God would have "written".

 

 

QUR'AN:

It requires very little to read it, and i have no problem at all to follow and understand it.

 

 

Judging the religion:

 

Your said: "You are also making the often repeated mistake of judging a religion based on the actions of its so-called believers rather than the religion itself."

 

I said:  that the blood dripping history of the Catholic Church does not mean that Christianity is bad, but that the people that followed it was worse than Muslims. This is about the people not the religion. My advice is therfor repeated, read before you type.

 

RESPONDS FROM MUSLIMS:

The Qur'an is the only book i read without any guidance of any sort. I have not heard any screams from Muslims over my understanding of the Qur'an. Now is that not interesting. I can read it and understand it.

 

RESPONDS FROM CHRISTIANS:

But the bible, i read it and get massive objections from Christians all the time.  I simply do not understand it correctly and so forth. What ? How much am i lacking in intelligence ? or maybe it has nothing to do with intelligence, maybe i just don't have that incredible list of tools you are referring to that is required to understand anything of the bible.

 

I have not written anything about the Bible that I have not first discussed with friends that are (2 priests and one theology professor). They are on the other hand Christians, and I therefor want to discuss what people can add on this forum. But it is just chaos in every post when it comes to the bilble.

Edited by solitair

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I'll try to answer your points one by one.

You state you have come to some or all of your conclusions by reading the Bible.

You are making the mistake non-Muslim dislikers make of quoting verses out of context and seeing the bad verses and making decisions based on a religion from those passages.

 

You are also making the often repeated mistake of judging a religion based on the actions of its so-called believers rather than the religion itself.

 

I’d like to ask, do you have a degree in (Christian) theology? Are you knowledgeable in Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek or perhaps even Syriac? Have you studied contextual analysis of the Bible verses. The Bible is not a self-study Book, exigiting the Bible takes years of formal study, perhaps a lifetime.

 

This is why solitairr there are thousands of Protestant sects (but only one Catholic Church). Every person makes their own decision and is the final arbiter in interpreting the Bible. They disagree with each other constantly. If I am a member of the Presbyterian Church and I disagree with the Pastor’s interpretation presto I make a new Church called the Reformed Presbyterian Church.

 

Solitairr the Catholic Church does not rely on the Bible Alone to decide on issues of Faith and Morality. We do not believe Scripture Alone is the basis of our Belief. The Church believes in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium (a final body to decide on any issues that come up for questioning, a referee if you like).

 

Your points about the Crusades, Inquisition, Witches etc are a thread itself and too detailed to go into here. If you like we can debate those in a separate thread.

 

baqar how are you.

It is not only Saudi Arabia or the Taliban that has this admonition.

Iran, a Shia state, also has this punishment, based on Sharia.

can you please explain this discrepancy?

Iran doesn't actually, it has laws banning proselytising and that's it. The apostasy laws in Arab countries are a dead letter as well, perhaps because of the nuances of Islamic law on this subject (like the protection of privacy etc.)

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Iran doesn't actually, it has laws banning proselytising and that's it. The apostasy laws in Arab countries are a dead letter as well, perhaps because of the nuances of Islamic law on this subject (like the protection of privacy etc.)

 

This is a very interesting topic, because the difference between believing something yourself, and to force your believes on others - is big. This is something that one has to like about Islam, that it is trying to protect people from being led astray. Christianity had some attempt like this a long time ago, but it all ended in disaster where your girls were burnt on fires and similar craziness.

 

In Islam - it is very serious - it is about your life. To an atheist religion is like a "hobby" or interest, it is not about life and death. So they do not understand why this is such a serious topic. I turned this around in my head, and said to my self, what if my daughter was tricked to follow some sect that wanted her to be part of a mass suicide. Would I freak out and get my guns out... hmm probable. So to a Muslim father that has a daughter that someone is trying to convert to some other religion - he is faced with the danger of his daughter losing her life...

 

So - to me it is very acceptable that there is a penalty for this. But only from the perspective that there is a God. I don't believe that there is a God, but I have to accept this law - as billions of people is a good indication that he does exist, and one had to accept that people fight for their life - being it their earthly or their eternal life.

 

I understand Atheist that don't agree to this, but I do not understand Christians that object to how Islam is doing this. They should agree completely and understand completely - because God does exist to them.

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Hi Solitair,

Quote from Post 286:

When I talk about the Bible - I say - it would be very strange if God gave his word to man in a book they could not understand and read.That is where you and I do not agree. I think it is completely ridiculous that God did this.

Based on what YOU say to me, i think the Bible is not the word of God in its current form. It is completely confusing and full of contradictions that requires years of theology studies and what not to decipher, as it has obviously been manipulated away from what God would have "written".

Response: --- The Scriptures have not been changed. There are some discrepancies and the choice of words by the different translators. --- The big difference you have noticed is the change of the Law from the Letter of the Law in the OT, and the Spirit of the Law in the NT. --- Yes, there are changes, and Jesus addresses many of these in the what is called “The Sermon on the Mount,” which is in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. --- If you read those three chapters you will get an understanding of the New Covenant God made with man, called the New Testament.

Check this one commandment and see if you understand it, Matthew 5:

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

--- (You see, the Letter of the Law says, --- “Don’t do the act.” --- The Spirit of the Law says, “Don’t even think about it.”)

But the Old and New Testaments are as they were written. --- If you find a particular change, then write it out here, --- but to repeat the words of others that the Bible has changed is disproven in the Quran which says in Surah 3:

3 He (God) sent down to you this Scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

--- This says plainly that He (God) sent down the Scripture by Revelation to Muhammad in truth, confirming the Previous Scriptures, the Torah (OT) and the Gospel (NT). --- They had different translations available including Arabic in 600 AD, the time of Muhammad.

So if the angel Gabriel ‘confirmed’ the former Scriptures to be true, we can trust them, don’t you think?

If you really want to learn about Christianity then read the NT because that is what applies to Christianity.

And about difficulty in understanding, --- yes, there is a reason. And it is no insult to your intelligence, but God gives understanding to believers, as it says in 1 Corinthians 2:

11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(More later, but enough for now)

Placid

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Hi Solitair,

Quote from Post 286:

When I talk about the Bible - I say - it would be very strange if God gave his word to man in a book they could not understand and read.That is where you and I do not agree. I think it is completely ridiculous that God did this.

Based on what YOU say to me, i think the Bible is not the word of God in its current form. It is completely confusing and full of contradictions that requires years of theology studies and what not to decipher, as it has obviously been manipulated away from what God would have "written".

Response: --- The Scriptures have not been changed. There are some discrepancies and the choice of words by the different translators. --- The big difference you have noticed is the change of the Law from the Letter of the Law in the OT, and the Spirit of the Law in the NT. --- Yes, there are changes, and Jesus addresses many of these in the what is called “The Sermon on the Mount,” which is in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. --- If you read those three chapters you will get an understanding of the New Covenant God made with man, called the New Testament.

Check this one commandment and see if you understand it, Matthew 5:

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

--- (You see, the Letter of the Law says, --- “Don’t do the act.” --- The Spirit of the Law says, “Don’t even think about it.”)

But the Old and New Testaments are as they were written. --- If you find a particular change, then write it out here, --- but to repeat the words of others that the Bible has changed is disproven in the Quran which says in Surah 3:

3 He (God) sent down to you this Scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

--- This says plainly that He (God) sent down the Scripture by Revelation to Muhammad in truth, confirming the Previous Scriptures, the Torah (OT) and the Gospel (NT). --- They had different translations available including Arabic in 600 AD, the time of Muhammad.

So if the angel Gabriel ‘confirmed’ the former Scriptures to be true, we can trust them, don’t you think?

If you really want to learn about Christianity then read the NT because that is what applies to Christianity.

And about difficulty in understanding, --- yes, there is a reason. And it is no insult to your intelligence, but God gives understanding to believers, as it says in 1 Corinthians 2:

11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(More later, but enough for now)

Placid

 

ok, So Im not the only one that finds the Bible contradicting, Jesus dis as well, and some of these contradictions are in fact addressed by Jesus as well if I understand you correctly.

 

So to be absolutely clear on this - there are - according to the New Testament - contradictions with the old testament that Jesus have addressed, and that Jesus have replaced ? Is this correct ?

The new testament - is not to be compared with the old testament, because there are in fact things that contradict.

 

So why the heck have I been hearing from these Christians over and over --- that there are no contradictions in the bible ???? Man, i can't believe these people.

 

Thank you Placid for clearing this up. At leas some of these contradictions are now explainable.

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So to be absolutely clear on this - there are - according to the New Testament - contradictions with the old testament that Jesus have addressed, and that Jesus have replaced ? Is this correct ?

 

No, it is not correct.

 

You have misunderstood what Placid said. He just said that the NT has 'updated' the Law in the OT.

 

An update is not the same as a contradiction.  

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Hi Wisdom,

Quote from 283:

One of the strangest things I've heard of.

Response: --- I suppose you are referring to, “Following Jesus is the Way that is straight,” --- or, “I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith.”

Have you not read these things in your Quran?

--- I also like this in Surah 5:

82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

--- (But then there is the same warning again as in 3:56), in this verse,

86 But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

Verse 85 says again that believing Christians will go to heaven, so that is ‘good news,’ --- that it says the same in the Quran as in the Gospels.

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As I mentioned in post #279, many Hindu and Sikh poets have expressed their love and admiration for our Imams in their poems.

 

Here are a few examples - a total of seven poems, two by Hindu poets Jai Singh and Mathur Lucknavi and the rest (3.1 - 3.5) by a Sikh poet, Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi.

 

Translations done by me.

 

1. Hindu  poet  Jai Singh

 

In praise of IMAM HUSAIN

 

Husain's name lives on to this day

Husain's currency is valid the world over

If only he had come to India

Every Hindu would have worshipped him

There is no doubt that we (Hindus) worship idols

We would kiss his grave and place our eyes lovingly on it

For sinners like us is the example of Hurr 1

Husain's call has the power to change a man's destiny

Jai Singh, the fire of hell will not touch me

I am a Hindu but my love for Husain is simply indescribable.

 

1  Hurr was an official in Yazeed's army He realized at the very end that Imam Husain was on the right and left the caliph's forces to join the Imam 

 

2. Hindu  poet Mathur  Lucknavi

 

In praise of Imam Husain

 

There is place in my eyes and in my heart for 2Shabbeer (Husain)

This world belongs to 2Shabbeer (Husain) as do the heavens

Since the day he had wanted to come to India

India has been his all along.  

2 Shabbeer is another name for Imam Husain

 

3. Sikh poet Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi

 

3.1  In praise of Islam

 

In my view, Islam is another word for love

For peace, goodwill and affection

Largeness of the heart and brotherhood

The name of truth staring into the face of death

My Islam is surely worthy of its name

But unfortunately my Islam is not around any more

 

 

3.2 Combined Praise for the Prophet & Imam Ali

 

It does not matter what my religion is

I am all praise for the valiant 3 Haider (Ali)

I honour the name of Muhammad and praise him

I cannot help bowing down to the great 4 Ahmad (Muhammad)

What can anyone do when someone falls in love?

Muhammad does not belong to Muslims alone

3 Haider is another name of Imam Ali's and

4Ahmad of the Prophet

 

 

3.3 In praise of Imam Ali 

 

You belong to every faith and to every era

We will never let your name  be tarnished

As long as we are alive, God Willing

Never will you belong to just one nation

 

 

3.4 In praise of Imam Hussain

 

O Prince of martyrs

When your name comes up

I can see 5 Saqi-e-Kausar (your father, Imam Ali)

Coming towards me with a cool drink

Please accept me as your slave

A fake coin can also be useful

  5(Saqi-e-Kauthar is a title of Imam Ali's)

 

 

3.5 In praise of Imam Hussain

 

You (Husain) gave a new lease of life to Islam

You marked the boundary between truth and falsehood

Death is an inevitable certainty

But you taught us how to live after death

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a few opinions of Imam Ali from other non-Muslims.

 

Dr. Henry Stubbe (1632 - 1676, Classicist, physician and philosopher)

'He had a contempt of the world, its glory and pomp, he feared God much, gave many alms, was just in all his actions, humble and affable; of an exceedingly quick wit and of an ingenuity that was not common; he was exceedingly learned, not in those sciences that terminate in speculations but those which extend to practice.'

 

Gerald de Gaury (1897 - 1984, distinguished soldier and diplomat)

'He had been wise in counsel and brave in battle, true to his friends and magnanimous to his foes. He was the paragon of Muslim nobility and chivalry.'

 

Khalil Gibran (Lebanese-American Christian writer)

'He was like a prophet sent for a nation other than his own, in an era to which he did not belong.'

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Perhaps the most endearing accolades come from Thomas Carlyle and George Jordach.

 

Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881, British man of letters)

 

'As for this young Ali, one cannot but like him. A noble-minded creature, as he shows himself now and always afterwards; full of affection, of fiery daring; something chivalrous in him; brave as a lion, yet with a grace, a truth and affection worthy of Christian knighthood.'

 

George Jordach (Lebanese Christian writer)

 

'All the wealth and treasures of this world are worth less than the strap of his shoes.'

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the 1970's the city of Bombay, India, was abuzz with news of a well-known Zoroastrian journalist, D.F. Karaka, and his undying love for Imam  Ali, which he finally explained in his book 'Then came Ali'.  

Edited by baqar

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No, it is not correct.

 

You have misunderstood what Placid said. He just said that the NT has 'updated' the Law in the OT.

 

An update is not the same as a contradiction.  

 

 

Update ? - you sound like your view is that the law in the old testament is compatible with the complete contradicting teachings of the NT. So what is the point them ? This is so typical for Christianity, there is never a clear answer to anything.

Update is not the same as contradiction - but an update can have that effect that a contradiction now is in place.

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As I mentioned in post #279, many Hindu and Sikh poets have expressed their love and admiration for our Imams in their poems.

 

Here are a few examples - a total of seven poems, two by Hindu poets Jai Singh and Mathur Lucknavi and the rest (3.1 - 3.5) by a Sikh poet, Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi.

 

Translations done by me.

 

1. Hindu  poet  Jai Singh

 

In praise of IMAM HUSAIN

 

Husain's name lives on to this day

Husain's currency is valid the world over

If only he had come to India

Every Hindu would have worshipped him

There is no doubt that we (Hindus) worship idols

We would kiss his grave and place our eyes lovingly on it

For sinners like us is the example of Hurr 1

Husain's call has the power to change a man's destiny

Jai Singh, the fire of hell will not touch me

I am a Hindu but my love for Husain is simply indescribable.

 

1  Hurr was an official in Yazeed's army He realized at the very end that Imam Husain was on the right and left the caliph's forces to join the Imam 

 

2. Hindu  poet Mathur  Lucknavi

 

In praise of Imam Husain

 

There is place in my eyes and in my heart for 2Shabbeer (Husain)

This world belongs to 2Shabbeer (Husain) as do the heavens

Since the day he had wanted to come to India

India has been his all along.  

2 Shabbeer is another name for Imam Husain

 

3. Sikh poet Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi

 

3.1  In praise of Islam

 

In my view, Islam is another word for love

For peace, goodwill and affection

Largeness of the heart and brotherhood

The name of truth staring into the face of death

My Islam is surely worthy of its name

But unfortunately my Islam is not around any more

 

 

3.2 Combined Praise for the Prophet & Imam Ali

 

It does not matter what my religion is

I am all praise for the valiant 3 Haider (Ali)

I honour the name of Muhammad and praise him

I cannot help bowing down to the great 4 Ahmad (Muhammad)

What can anyone do when someone falls in love?

Muhammad does not belong to Muslims alone

3 Haider is another name of Imam Ali's and

4Ahmad of the Prophet

 

 

3.3 In praise of Imam Ali 

 

You belong to every faith and to every era

We will never let your name  be tarnished

As long as we are alive, God Willing

Never will you belong to just one nation

 

 

3.4 In praise of Imam Hussain

 

O Prince of martyrs

When your name comes up

I can see 5 Saqi-e-Kausar (your father, Imam Ali)

Coming towards me with a cool drink

Please accept me as your slave

A fake coin can also be useful

  5(Saqi-e-Kauthar is a title of Imam Ali's)

 

 

3.5 In praise of Imam Hussain

 

You (Husain) gave a new lease of life to Islam

You marked the boundary between truth and falsehood

Death is an inevitable certainty

But you taught us how to live after death

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a few opinions of Imam Ali from other non-Muslims.

 

Dr. Henry Stubbe (1632 - 1676, Classicist, physician and philosopher)

'He had a contempt of the world, its glory and pomp, he feared God much, gave many alms, was just in all his actions, humble and affable; of an exceedingly quick wit and of an ingenuity that was not common; he was exceedingly learned, not in those sciences that terminate in speculations but those which extend to practice.'

 

Gerald de Gaury (1897 - 1984, distinguished soldier and diplomat)

'He had been wise in counsel and brave in battle, true to his friends and magnanimous to his foes. He was the paragon of Muslim nobility and chivalry.'

 

Khalil Gibran (Lebanese-American Christian writer)

'He was like a prophet sent for a nation other than his own, in an era to which he did not belong.'

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Perhaps the most endearing accolades come from Thomas Carlyle and George Jordach.

 

Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881, British man of letters)

 

'As for this young Ali, one cannot but like him. A noble-minded creature, as he shows himself now and always afterwards; full of affection, of fiery daring; something chivalrous in him; brave as a lion, yet with a grace, a truth and affection worthy of Christian knighthood.'

 

George Jordach (Lebanese Christian writer)

 

'All the wealth and treasures of this world are worth less than the strap of his shoes.'

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In the 1970's the city of Bombay, India, was abuzz with news of a well-known Zoroastrian journalist, D.F. Karaka, and his undying love for Imam  Ali, which he finally explained in his book 'Then came Ali'.  

Thank you for sharing this Baqar! Wonderful! 

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Update ? - you sound like your view is that the law in the old testament is compatible with the complete contradicting teachings of the NT. So what is the point them ? This is so typical for Christianity, there is never a clear answer to anything.

Update is not the same as contradiction - but an update can have that effect that a contradiction now is in place.

A new law can be in conflict with another law if they both still are valid but when an old law is replaced by a new, there is no contradiction. We can call it update but I think replacement is a better word. Society changes and so does laws. Noone, Jews included, can today live with some of the laws from the OT.

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Hi Solitair,

Quote from Post 291:

So I’m not the only one that finds the Bible contradicting, Jesus did as well, and some of these contradictions are in fact addressed by Jesus as well if I understand you correctly.

So to be absolutely clear on this - there are - according to the New Testament - contradictions with the old testament that Jesus have addressed, and that Jesus have replaced ? Is this correct ?

Response: --- The Torah (OT Law) was given to the Jews, and while they remained faithful as the People of God, they were an example of a Holy Nation, which is what God called them to be. --- There are really three sections to the OT, the Torah, the Law, --- then what is called ‘The Writings,’ which is the history from Joshua through Psalms and Proverbs, --- and ‘The Prophets.’ --- These were Prophecies written from about 700 BC in Isaiah to 400 BC in Malachi. --- Then there was silence from God for 400 years. --- The Jews had the written word of the OT, and all of the Prophecies which the believing Jews followed, knowing that God was going to send a Savior, Messiah, and Redeemer, to Israel, but they didn’t know when.

--- When Jesus came, they even restarted the Calendar, because God had given a New Covenant, a New Agreement, a New Testament.

The ‘update’ that Bacar mentioned is the fulfilling of the Prophecies that were given, so they are not contradictions, but (as you said) ‘replacements,’ --- and Jesus said in Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

--- And because the Jews, who were legalists, were far off the track, Jesus said:

20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The reason Jesus could speak positively about His mission is revealed in Surah 3:

47 She (Mary) said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

--- (There were no written Books, but God revealed this wisdom and knowledge to Jesus through His intellect.)

But before we get too deep into the changes given by prophecy in the OT and fulfillment in the NT, I would like to go to an example in the Quran that shows a change (which is along the line of your ‘turn the other cheek’ theory.)

Surah 5:44, --- It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in surrender) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto:

45 We ordained therein for them (the Jews): "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." --- But if any one remits (or foregoes) the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

The OT Letter of the Law was given to the Jews only.

The next part of the verse describes the way of the new Covenant :

---“But if any one remits (or foregoes) the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.”

In the OT law of ‘checks and balances’ it was the rule, ‘an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,’ --- so when Justice was served they could file that case away.

--- But if someone does wrong to a Christian, he can retaliate, --- but if his faith in God is strong, he can commit the ‘wrong’ to God instead. --- Now with this there is a problem with ‘checks and balances’ --- because a wrong has been done and not ‘balanced.’

When a person foregoes the retaliation himself, and gives it to God, then God credits the ‘amount of the debt,’ to that one’s account in heaven as an act of charity (love), --- which is ‘atonement for himself.’

--- To use a term better understood to Muslims, it is a ‘good work’ laid up in heaven, where God keeps accounts on all of us.

Do you understand that? --- It is like God saying, “Because he did that to you, I will bless you in repayment and lay up your reward in heaven.” (This balances the books.)

This is why Christians are taught to commit all things to God in prayer. And God says in Hebrews 10:

30 “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord”

--- If the offense was severe, then God will ‘take it out of their hide’ as well as laying up your reward of atonement in heaven.’

--- The word atonement means --- ‘at – one – ment’ --- or ‘in right relationship with God.’

(More later)

Placid

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Hi Solitair,

I would like to go back to our three religions from Abraham, in Surah 5:

41 O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee.

--- (The Jews were opposing Muhammad, but they would come to him with questions or disputes, and it goes on to say):

42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For God loveth those who judge in equity.

43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

--- (This proves that the Jews had their Scriptures and could judge their own cases, but they came to waste Muhammad’s time, because they were not ‘People of Faith.’) --- Then the verses I used in the previous Post:

44 --- It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in surrender) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto:

45 We ordained therein for them (the Jews): "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." --- But if any one remits (or foregoes) the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

--- (“If they fail to judge by what God has revealed.” --- It goes on to say this):

46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

--- Now you see by plain command, it says in the Quran that, “If Christians do not judge or live by the ‘light and guidance’ of what God has revealed,” --- they are (no better than) those who rebel.

So it doesn’t make a lot of difference how much you, or others, might criticize Christianity, we are duty bound to follow Jesus, as instructed in John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I (Jesus) say to you, he who hears (adheres to) My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

--- (So, therein is the promise of heaven, and the place where ‘treasures are laid up’ for those who forego retaliation, and are rewarded by God for an injustice.)

Anything you have said about the history before 1500 is the result of the Roman Dynasty and does not have anything to do with Christianity after the Reformation when Martin Luther broke the tyranny, and again brought Christianity out in the open. Even the Catholic Church was reformed, and though as the Catholic Poster said, ‘They don’t just go by the Bible, but by the wisdom of men,’ --- (which doesn’t say that the Hierarchy relies on God), --- there are some true believers among them.

--- But Christians of the various denominations are to live by the New Testament Scriptures. --- I am not trying to influence you to live like I do, but just want you to know that the New Testament teaches to Love God and live by what Jesus taught.

Now did Muhammad have this same ‘guidance and light?’ --- Surah 42:

52 And thus have We (God) inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the Revelation of the Scriptures and Faith) a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

--- Muhammad was given ‘enlightenment’ of the Scriptures, and lived by Faith (trust in God) and it was ‘a light whereby We guide.’

So there it is --- ‘guidance and light,’ and it says, “Verily you guide unto a right path.”

There are really no new rules in the Quran that are not in the former Scriptures, so we must come by Faith in God, surrender our will to His will, and let Him guide us.

Placid

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Hi Solitair,

Now I want to add the Prophecy that explains the New Covenant (Testament).

The Kingdoms of David and Solomon were the high points of Israel and Judah, about 1000 BC, and from then they had a weakening of leadership and a disregard for God. --- God spoke to them through His Prophets but in about 720 BC was the Assyrian captivity of Israel, the northern Kingdom. --- Isaiah was the Prophet at that time, and he warned of the later Babylonian captivity which happened in 600 BC.

Jeremiah was the Prophet who saw the downfall of Judah, the southern Kingdom, in the Babylonian Captivity and Jeremiah was given this Prophecy about 606, --- some 6 years before the captivity, and this is what it said in Jeremiah 31:

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This Prophecy was fulfilled and it is recorded in Hebrews 8:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

The OT Laws were given for the Jews, --- but after they broke their covenant of obedience to God, the laws were ineffective. --- So in the New Covenant God said,

“I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts”

I have already included the verse from Surah 3 that said God gave Jesus the wisdom and knowledge, through His intellect, but He had the Holy Spirit of God, which was later given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

--- Now this is how God puts His new Law in the minds and in the hearts of His followers, --- Those who yield themselves to God in sincerity, and follow the teaching of Jesus may receive the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. --- There are many so-called Christians, who do not have the Holy Spirit so they don’t have God’s guidance in their lives.

To those who profess to be believers, but are not, they are spoken of this way by Jesus in Matthew 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

(Enough for now)

Placid

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To those who profess to be believers, but are not, they are spoken of this way by Jesus in Matthew 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

 

Hi Placid

 

The people who prophesied in the name of Jesus, cast demons in his name and did many wonders in his name were his own apostles.

 

No one else.

 

Clearly, Jesus was saying that he would turn his back on his apostles.

 

And this can only be possible if they were not good people. 

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That is hardly worth a response.

There are people around the world today who have healing ministries that cast out evil spirits and prophesy. Some are genuine, some are false prophets so your assessment is due to your lack of knowledge.

Edited by placid

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 your assessment is due to your lack of knowledge.

 

It was not my assessment. I was just thinking out aloud. I was just asking for your opinion. 

 

In any case, I have never heard any miracles done in the name of Jesus by anyone, except his apostles and disciples.

 

The three things are prophesying, casting out demons and doing wonders (miracles).

 

The first two may have been done by others but not the third.

 

But since you seem to have taken offence at the question, we will leave it at that.

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That is hardly worth a response.

There are people around the world today who have healing ministries that cast out evil spirits and prophesy. Some are genuine, some are false prophets so your assessment is due to your lack of knowledge.

 

false.

these so called psychics, healers, prophets have been offered millions of dollars to show their so called power under controlled conditions and have refused. no wonder.

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10:57 O mankind! there hath come to you a direction from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts,- and for those who believe, a guidance and a Mercy.

 

 

Islamic Spiritual Healing is based on the knowledge extracted from Quran and Sunnah based on the concept of Seek, Send and Heal through Nur. Revealed and taught to us by the beloved friends of Allah Almighty and descended of Rasool Allah (saws); Hazrat Syed Mohammed Baba Tajuddin Aulia Nagpuri (ra) and Hazrat Syedha Amma Bibi Marium Taji Waliyah (ra). People mostly deem Islamic Spiritual Healing as with Sufic Healing or Sufi Healing.

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false.

these so called psychics, healers, prophets have been offered millions of dollars to show their so called power under controlled conditions and have refused. no wonder.

Jesus said something about not testing God, I believe it's the wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign.

 

There are two types of healers. Those that are fake, and those who are true. Offer millions to the fake and they will refuse for obvious reasons. Offer millions to the true and they will refuse for the above reason.

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There are two types of healers. 

 

Hi SoP      IL was concerned about miracle-doers, not prophesiers or exorcists . I think he meant that the apostles are known to have done miracles. Other people have done magic, but not miracles. That is the point that I believe fascinated him.  The key word is 'miracles'.

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So I see we have to include another subject where Christians are wrongly judged.

The Scripture in question is from this teaching of Jesus, including headings, in Matthew 7:

--- The Narrow Way

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

--- You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

--- I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

--- Build on the Rock

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:

27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

--- (I should have included verse 21 which says it plainly.)

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

ILove said in Post 301:

The people who prophesied in the name of Jesus, cast demons in his name and did many wonders in his name were his own apostles.

No one else. --- Clearly, Jesus was saying that he would turn his back on his apostles.

And this can only be possible if they were not good people.

Quote from 303:

It was not my assessment. I was just thinking out aloud. I was just asking for your opinion.

Response: --- Since I don’t see any question mark in the first post, it appears like a statement (and fairly emphatic at that).

--- It is equivalent to Muhammad saying to his successor, Ali, who he appointed,

“I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!.”

--- Then the response in Post 303: “I was just thinking out loud, “

So can we assume from that statement that his first thoughts are --- to slander Jesus and the Apostles?

Another thing about ‘thinking out loud’ --- unless you have a dicta-phone that transfers your thoughts to paper, --- your second ‘thought out loud’ might be 'tempered with reason.' --- How can a ‘first thought’ get into a Post here unless it is intentional?

If you were asking my opinion, I would repeat what I said:

--- “Your assessment is due to your lack of knowledge.”

Notice that verse 21 makes it conditional:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but, HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN.”

I have been part of different prayer groups and have seen people both delivered from evil spirits and healed. --- Sometimes the deliverance from an evil spirit of Satan, is the healing, just like the epileptic boy in Matthew 17:

18 “And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.”

--- And every deliverance or healing is a miracle, because a ‘miracle’ is something that happens outside of human logic and reasoning.

--- One of the main functions of most Evangelical Churches is Prayer, and praying for others, and especially the sick. When God answers prayer, it increases faith, so a person is apt to pray even more.

Ali said in Post 308:

‘yet they won't take a trip down to the local hospitals and 'cure' those in actual need.’

Many times people of faith are prayed for and receive healing without going to the hospital, ---as it says in James 5:

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up.

--- Notice the order in the verse,

--- “Are there any sick among you?” --- “Let him (the sick person) call for the elders (fellow believers) of the Church.”

---So that is saying that the sick person has faith in God and in the prayers of others.

Christians build hospitals and are praying constantly for others, but people who have no faith are not calling on God are they?

Salvation and healing are both by faith, and since healing of the sick is of God, and not of man’s power, --- there isn’t any automatic ‘cure’ for those who have no faith in God, the Great Healer.

--- This is a world most people know nothing about. --- Are there not Muslims who are healed by Faith? --- If you want to discuss further, start a topic.

Placid

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Hi Placid

 

I am sorry that my post was somewhat clumsily worded. But there was nothing emphatic about anything anywhere. In any case, you have still not answered my main question.

 

Are there people other than the apostles who have done miracles (or wonders as the verse call them) in the name of Jesus?  If not, who is the verse talking about?  There are lots of people making prophecies and casting demons but none that I know have done miracles. My post was made under the assumption that there were no miracle-doers in the name of Jesus apart from the apostles and also that the apostles did abandon Jesus in his darkest hour. But may be I was misinformed.  

Edited by IloveImamHussain

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--- This may give you some info from the Scriptures in Acts 19:

11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul,

12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.

13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.”

14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them,] so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds.

19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver.

20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

--- (Most answers are found in the Scriptures, which are warnings to false teachers.)

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Hi Ilove,

Here are a few more examples of miracles in the life of the Apostles.

Jesus Christ was the author of Christianity, and it included miracles, --- John 14:

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.”

It may surprise you that Paul was used so mightily, and especially on this topic where we are supposed to be bashing Paul, not praising him.

The Book of Acts means ‘The Acts of the Apostles,’ --- but it could be called, ‘The Acts, or Actions of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.’

Jesus said, ‘greater works than these shall you do, because I go to My Father.’

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, the Apostles had been instructed in Acts 1:

4 And being assembled together with them, He (Jesus) commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;

5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

--- And the Promise of the Father was fulfilled in Acts 2, when they received the Holy Spirit.

The strange phenomenon of the Holy Spirit working this way through shadows and cloths, was shown in Peter much before Paul. Notice these verses in Acts 5:

12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch.

14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,

15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.

16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

17 Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation,

18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison.

19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said,

20 “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”

21 And when they heard that, they entered the temple early in the morning and taught. But the high priest and those with him came and called the council together, with all the elders of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.

22 But when the officers came and did not find them in the prison, they returned and reported,

23 saying, “Indeed we found the prison shut securely, and the guards standing outside before the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside!”

24 Now when the high priest the captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard these things, they wondered what the outcome would be.

25 So one came and told them, saying, “Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!”

God is a God of miracles. --- There are ministries today that send out ‘prayer cloths’ to people who ask for healing. --- Again, it is the person that asks for prayer that receives it. --- (Another whole subject.) --- I have no comment on these ministries, but I accept what the Evangelist Billy Graham said years ago, --- “Don’t knock what you don’t know.”

Placid

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Hi Abu,

(Since we are on the subject of the Book of Acts and the first Church), I want to continue from Post 162 (Page 7) --- to what you said in Post 141):

Quote: Here's where Islam and Christianity differ. Since Christians can't agree on the definitive source or basis for Christians teachings, the basis of belief is never established (like it is for Muslims with the Shahada). Since the source or basis is never established, the core teachings of Christianity vary wildly between denominations.

Response: --- The source of Christian teaching which follows the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels had to be completed after His death, resurrection and ascension as it is recorded in Acts 2:

1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There were thousands of Jews in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost and they observed these Signs, then Peter stood up and explained what they were seeing.

His message goes on for some time down to 2:

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,

45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

--- So this is how the New Testament Church started,

2:1-4 By the giving of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles,

36 The preaching of Peter of all that had happened, declaring “That Jesus was both Lord and Christ,”

38 The multitude that believed were baptized

41 There were added to them about three thousand souls

--- And here are “THE CORE TEACHINGS OF CHRISTIANITY,” --- verses 42-47

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Notice these four things that they continued in:

THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE, --- FELLOWSHIP TOGETHER, --- EATING MEALS TOGETHER, --- AND IN PRAYERS.

43 And many wonders and Signs were done through the Apostles.

45 Those who had extra goods, sold them and shared with those with need.

46 they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

47 praising God and having favor with all the people.

--- This is what is basically still followed in Evangelical Churches today.

Placid

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Hi Leto,

I wanted to add a little as a follow-up to Post 280:

Matthew 7:16, You will know them by their fruits.

I would like to tell you why I believe Muhammad was a Prophet of God to Arabia.

After reading the nature of his calling to the Mission of destroying idolatry from Arabia, and returning the people to the worship of God, --- and how God brought him through to victory, is remarkable.

--- However, the success of a Mission is measured by the results. --- In the Pichthall Translation, he gives a general intro and an intro to each Surah, and in the accomplishments of the Mission in the last 10 years at Al-Madinah, he writes this:

Quote: In those ten years he destroyed idolatry in Arabia; raised women from the status of a chattel to complete legal equality with man; effectually stopped the drunkenness and immorality which had till then disgraced the Arabs; made men to live with faith, sincerity, and honest dealing; transformed tribes who had been for centuries content with ignorance into a people with the greatest thirst for knowledge; and for the first time in history made human brotherhood a fact and principle of common law. --- End of quote.

Since the Quran constantly refers to the Faith of Abraham as the standard of religion, Muhammad did not start a new religion. --- More than 60 times it says that the order of reaching God is by Faith and Good Works, --- but always Faith first. --- The NT says, “By Grace we are saved through Faith.” --- And the good works follow Faith.

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