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In the Name of God بسم الله

Christianity Is Created By Paul

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Is that the best you can do?

Why not explain what you have against Paul. I think you have nothing more than a prejudice you've been told to have. I'd bet you wouldn't even know where to look.

Y'know what...Allah revealed Jesus. Does the Quran say anything against that? Does the Quran reveal any new rules, new laws? Show me.

So in your opinion disbelievers are those who____________

Nobody in my family or mosque has mentioned Paul to me lol. I've found out about pauly through reading.

He used to kill Christians, was a Pharisee and my mistake.

It was actually Peter's dream, I mixed up the two

The Quran has many new rules and laws and the Quran is available around the world. It is also online and can be found by looking up what new rules the Quran has in comparison to the bible. This is something you have to do.

A disbeliever is anybody who is not a Muslim. Just like a disbeliever is anybody not a Jew according to a Jew or a disbeliever is anybody not a Christian from a Christians view.

Allah is so Merciful he gives the disbelievers a chance to reach paradise even though they are disbelievers.

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In terms of virtues like charity and justice I don't believe that they should be played off against each other. There has to be a certain ordening to society which promotes justice and protects the pe

If Jesus was born by a Virgin or not is not important and make no difference to me as a Christian. Nor does trinity. No one understands the relations between God and Jesus anyway.

Dear friend   I have very little knowledge of either Biblical history or of Paul's part in it. I can understand some of the objections that non-Christians might have. But I have a feeling that our Chr

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... oh well.. like i said, to me the bible is completely confusing.

 

Greetings solitair,

 

That made me chuckle, because it once was for me also.  That is because I tried to read it like a book, from cover to cover, without understanding anything about each of the books that I was trying to read.

 

What brought it together for me was when I was given the Disney movie The Prince of Egypt, and I knew that there was controversy over whether Disney followed the story as told in the Bible... so I noticed at the beginning of the movie it said something like, this is the story taken from Exodus and it gave the chapter.  I got out the Bible and began to read that Book and chapter, and from there I just kept wanting to know more.  From there I wanted to know about how the Hebrews came to be in Egypt, so I read the story of Joseph and how his brothers sold him into slavery.  Then I wanted to know more about Joseph's father... thus began my journey through, and into, the Bible... beyond just the simple stories I had known as a child.  I started to learn about how there are, the historical books(they are the ones that are the hardest for me), the wisdom books, the prophets(here is where I find so much Truth), how the Psalms were written as songs by David, and about who David was.  Once I started the Lord just drew me in.  I used to stay up whole nights sometimes because reading, I had to read the New Living Translation, which was easier to understand, but I always wanted to compare it with the King James version which is more true to the original language.  I had the thirst to just keep knowing more.  I just became amazed when I began to see so much Truth in the scriptures... things that had happened, things that were happening, lessons that I could see would have saved me from mistakes in my own life.

I think around this same time I happened to turn to a station on my car radio that had teachings.  I would hear these teachings and I would go home and look up the passages in the Bible they had been speaking about.  Every time I came across a teaching, I would go to the Bible and look up whatever passage was being talked about, and this always led me to read more.  This is how I came to finally understand what is written in the Bible.

 

May God bless you on your own personal journey,

CLynn

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Greetings solitair,

 

That made me chuckle, because it once was for me also.  That is because I tried to read it like a book, from cover to cover, without understanding anything about each of the books that I was trying to read.

 

What brought it together for me was when I was given the Disney movie The Prince of Egypt, and I knew that there was controversy over whether Disney followed the story as told in the Bible... so I noticed at the beginning of the movie it said something like, this is the story taken from Exodus and it gave the chapter.  I got out the Bible and began to read that Book and chapter, and from there I just kept wanting to know more.  From there I wanted to know about how the Hebrews came to be in Egypt, so I read the story of Joseph and how his brothers sold him into slavery.  Then I wanted to know more about Joseph's father... thus began my journey through, and into, the Bible... beyond just the simple stories I had known as a child.  I started to learn about how there are, the historical books(they are the ones that are the hardest for me), the wisdom books, the prophets(here is where I find so much Truth), how the Psalms were written by David, and about who David was.  Once I started the Lord just drew me in.  I used to stay up whole nights sometimes because reading, I had to read the New Living Translation, which was easier to understand, but I always wanted to compare it with the King James version which is more true to the original language.  I had the thirst to just keep knowing more.  I just became amazed when I began to see so much Truth in the scriptures... things that had happened, things that were happening, lessons that I could see would have saved me from mistakes in my own life.

I think around this same time I happened to turn to a station on my car radio that had teachings.  I would hear these teachings and I would go home and look up the passages in the Bible they had been speaking about.  Every time I came across a teaching, I would go to the Bible and look up whatever passage was being talked about, and this always led me to read more.  This is how I came to finally understand what is written in the Bible.

 

May God bless you on your own personal journey,

CLynn

And where was the part where you figured out that Jesus is God, son, and the holy ghost? 

Because there is no clear mention only inferences.

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A disbeliever is anybody who is not a Muslim. Just like a disbeliever is anybody not a Jew according to a Jew or a disbeliever is anybody not a Christian from a Christians view.

 

Greetings Wisdom Lion,

 

That makes an awful lot of disbelievers running around then, and none of them which are agreed upon. :mellow:

I myself believe that there are disbelievers among Muslims, as well as among Jews, as well as among Christians.

It takes alot more to be a believer than to just claim a religion and a title, or label.  It is important to recognize a true believer from amongst all peoples.

 

asalaam,

CLynn

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Actually, come to think of it, I don't think they have issued an encyclical or other official document in regard the Quran.

But if you think they have, could you please provide the reference.

I am just interested. That is all.[/

I dont think it is necessary to reffer to a statement. Why do you think they started the crusades against the "unfaithful Muslims". ?

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Greetings solitair,

 

That made me chuckle, because it once was for me also.  That is because I tried to read it like a book, from cover to cover, without understanding anything about each of the books that I was trying to read.

 

What brought it together for me was when I was given the Disney movie The Prince of Egypt, and I knew that there was controversy over whether Disney followed the story as told in the Bible... so I noticed at the beginning of the movie it said something like, this is the story taken from Exodus and it gave the chapter.  I got out the Bible and began to read that Book and chapter, and from there I just kept wanting to know more.  From there I wanted to know about how the Hebrews came to be in Egypt, so I read the story of Joseph and how his brothers sold him into slavery.  Then I wanted to know more about Joseph's father... thus began my journey through, and into, the Bible... beyond just the simple stories I had known as a child.  I started to learn about how there are, the historical books(they are the ones that are the hardest for me), the wisdom books, the prophets(here is where I find so much Truth), how the Psalms were written by David, and about who David was.  Once I started the Lord just drew me in.  I used to stay up whole nights sometimes because reading, I had to read the New Living Translation, which was easier to understand, but I always wanted to compare it with the King James version which is more true to the original language.  I had the thirst to just keep knowing more.  I just became amazed when I began to see so much Truth in the scriptures... things that had happened, things that were happening, lessons that I could see would have saved me from mistakes in my own life.

I think around this same time I happened to turn to a station on my car radio that had teachings.  I would hear these teachings and I would go home and look up the passages in the Bible they had been speaking about.  Every time I came across a teaching, I would go to the Bible and look up whatever passage was being talked about, and this always led me to read more.  This is how I came to finally understand what is written in the Bible.

 

May God bless you on your own personal journey,

CLynn

 

Thank you CLynn, those were uplifting words,

 

i wish i had that experience, but for me it is not like that. I have many translations of the bible, and some scriptures are so different depending on the version of the bible, that i can not even see that it is the same scripture some times. The text from King James is so completely different that i can not see that it even is talking about the same as other translations of the same verse...

 

The qur'an on the other hand is easy to read, but hard to understand in depth. It is so deep, and so full that it takes for ever to comprehend all the stuff that you learn...

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In post #35 of the thread WHO COMPILED THE QURAN, you said that you believed in the testimonies of the NT, yet you reject the Virgin Birth. Aren't you contradicting yourself? Anyway who do you think was Jesus' father?

If Jesus was born by a Virgin or not is not important and make no difference to me as a Christian. Nor does trinity. No one understands the relations between God and Jesus anyway.
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I dont think it is necessary to reffer to a statement. Why do you think they started the crusades against the "unfaithful Muslims". ?

 

Because they were the lowest pease of .... that have ever walked the face of the earth... the pope at the time was a .. well i am not going to say it. ... 400 years of it... one should think they had time to reflect on the mistakes before the next generation started over again... so NO - it has nothing to do with GOD what so ever what they did.

If Jesus was born by a Virgin or not is not important and make no difference to me as a Christian. Nor does trinity. No one understands the relations between God and Jesus anyway.

he ha ha god point !

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Wisdom Lion, on 18 Mar 2014 - 4:50 PM, said:

Nobody in my family or mosque has mentioned Paul to me lol. I've found out about pauly through reading.

Very interesting, what was it you read?

He used to kill Christians,

In that case you should be able to tell me who he killed.

It was actually Peter's dream, I mixed up the two

No worries, it's easy to do.

The Quran has many new rules and laws and the Quran is available around the world. It is also online and can be found by looking up what new rules the Quran has in comparison to the bible. This is something you have to do.

So far, no new rules. You'll have to tell me.

A disbeliever is anybody who is not a Muslim.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, ever if it's in disagreement with the Quran.

 

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62)

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

(5:69).

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

 

 

Just like a disbeliever is anybody not a Jew according to a Jew or a disbeliever is anybody not a Christian from a Christians view.

Huh?

Allah is so Merciful he gives the disbelievers a chance to reach paradise even though they are disbelievers.

You mean athiests?

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Thank you CLynn, those were uplifting words,

 

i wish i had that experience, but for me it is not like that. I have many translations of the bible, and some scriptures are so different depending on the version of the bible, that i can not even see that it is the same scripture some times. The text from King James is so completely different that i can not see that it even is talking about the same as other translations of the same verse...

 

The qur'an on the other hand is easy to read, but hard to understand in depth. It is so deep, and so full that it takes for ever to comprehend all the stuff that you learn...

 

Greetings solitair,

 

See what I bolded above?  I think this is true for all scriptures. :)

 

The King James version of the Bible is old english, so yes, it is the hardest, but I do feel it is most true, since it is one of the first english translations.  It reads the same as the Geneva Bible, which is an even earlier version.  I have looked into them all... Wycliffe and Tyndale included.  Like I said... all night reading sessions sometimes.  I like, whenever I must read one of the easier translations, to always go back to one of the earliest translations for clarification.  In this way God has given me Wisdom.

 

I was just reading earlier on a site how it is impossible to understand the Qur'an without the additional reading and explanations that come from the biography of Muhammad.  I am assuming by this they mean hadith.  I like to read the Qur'an without additions of hadith.  I feel that if it is God's Word it should be sufficient on its own.

 

Salaam and blessings,

CLynn

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Greetings solitair,

 

See what I bolded above?  I think this is true for all scriptures. :)

 

The King James version of the Bible is old english, so yes, it is the hardest, but I do feel it is most true, since it is one of the first english translations.  It reads the same as the Geneva Bible, which is an even earlier version.  I have looked into them all... Wycliffe and Tyndale included.  Like I said... all night reading sessions sometimes.  I like, whenever I must read one of the easier translations, to always go back to one of the earliest translations for clarification.  In this way God has given me Wisdom.

 

I was just reading earlier on a site how it is impossible to understand the Qur'an without the additional reading and explanations that come from the biography of Muhammad.  I am assuming by this they mean hadith.  I like to read the Qur'an without additions of hadith.  I feel that if it is God's Word it should be sufficient on its own.

 

Salaam and blessings,

CLynn

 

Thank CLynn,

 

I am now reading a small bible that i can zip up, it is very small and fits in my pocket. It is a newer translation because i just gave up on the old stuff. I have tried to read it in other languages than English also, but anything older just drives me nuts when it comes to the bible. I think the newer translations are better for me.

 

Yea, the Qur'an, i recommend reading it. As you know i am not a Muslim. I read it just because it is a very good book. Seriously, it is amazing especially on how to treat you children, how to be a parent. I know that many Muslims are very  strict and can punish their children and what have you  -  just like Christians do - but if you get down under all that stuff, and just take the book the way you personally understand it - it is amazing. I stooped completely to punish my children, and started to meet them and treat them like the Qur'an says, and it has changed my life. I repeat - Im not a Muslim ha ha ha i just have lots of respect for intelligent words.

 

Also the teaching of family, how you should treat your wife. i was on the edge of disaster, but after reading the Qur'an i understood my mistakes in my relationship.

 

I actually don't think that it always is good to have so much help reading the Qur'an, unless you are a Muslim and really are studying it deeply.

 

As of now i am working on the Bible - as it also have much wisdom from many generations of people. Something to learn for all of us no mater what religion we belong to.

 

Thank you again for your replies ,

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solitair, on 18 Mar 2014 - 5:41 PM, said:
Because they were the lowest pease of .... that have ever walked the face of the earth... the pope at the time was a .. well i am not going to say it. ... 400 years of it... one should think they had time to reflect on the mistakes before the next generation started over again... so NO - it has nothing to do with GOD what so ever what they did.

 

A popular saying around the shop was...After 125 years you'd think CP Rail would have figured it out by now. Actually, they never will figure it out. The reason I say this is because I gave them many years of all kinds of work. Never went into management for the same reason. We cared more about running a railway than our management did. Language of upper management is "money".

 

One of the biggest gripes Jesus had was with the religious leaders of the time. Even then it was all about the money. Generation to generation greed doesn't change. There's good coin in playing on the emotions of those who wish to believe. Guilt trips fill the offering baskets too. I remember one guy preaching that you should give til it hurts, (he had some organization thing going on) Total turn off to me, but it works...

 

 

 

he ha ha god point !

It is a good point. Considering we read Heaven is a totally different realm. God is unimaginable. I'm sure He is, thus confusion is easy. Actually I think it's called conjecture. When one does not know he guesses, then tells others what he guessed. Others tell more but forget about the guessing part. Next thing ya know, you got a new religion.

 

The concept of Islam is also confusing. Islam teaches Adam was the first Prophet, and his belief system was Islam. Same with all Prophets. Considering you're talking about the same God, (Quran says so) all Prophets would have gotten the same message (Islam) from Adam until Muhammad. Don't forget Jesus too. Now, if God revealed to His Prophets a message to guide them in their (Islam) then all messages should be the same no? Actually, they are.

It's cool you're reading the Bible, even cooler you read the Quran first.

 

Everybody wants to put the Quran in one corner of the ring, the Bible in the other corner, and we all come out fighting. W/L would tell you that the worst of Muslims are better than the best Christians.

 

The Quran says it completes the scriptures, it also says it confirms, so why not lay them down side by side and notice where the Quran fills in the blanks, and how it confirms many of the Scriptures that came before.

 

Lots of controversy over that one, but all arguments come from hadith. My experience is hadith prefers anything but what the Christians believe. From my studies I'm thinking that in order to be a complete Muslim, you must be a Christian first. ;)

 

All I wanna say is, forget "religion" keep reading and when God wants you to notice something, you will.

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A popular saying around the shop was...After 125 years you'd think CP Rail would have figured it out by now. Actually, they never will figure it out. The reason I say this is because I gave them many years of all kinds of work. Never went into management for the same reason. We cared more about running a railway than our management did. Language of upper management is "money".

 

One of the biggest gripes Jesus had was with the religious leaders of the time. Even then it was all about the money. Generation to generation greed doesn't change. There's good coin in playing on the emotions of those who wish to believe. Guilt trips fill the offering baskets too. I remember one guy preaching that you should give til it hurts, (he had some organization thing going on) Total turn off to me, but it works...

 

 

 

It is a good point. Considering we read Heaven is a totally different realm. God is unimaginable. I'm sure He is, thus confusion is easy. Actually I think it's called conjecture. When one does not know he guesses, then tells others what he guessed. Others tell more but forget about the guessing part. Next thing ya know, you got a new religion.

 

The concept of Islam is also confusing. Islam teaches Adam was the first Prophet, and his belief system was Islam. Same with all Prophets. Considering you're talking about the same God, (Quran says so) all Prophets would have gotten the same message (Islam) from Adam until Muhammad. Don't forget Jesus too. Now, if God revealed to His Prophets a message to guide them in their (Islam) then all messages should be the same no? Actually, they are.

It's cool you're reading the Bible, even cooler you read the Quran first.

 

Everybody wants to put the Quran in one corner of the ring, the Bible in the other corner, and we all come out fighting. W/L would tell you that the worst of Muslims are better than the best Christians.

 

The Quran says it completes the scriptures, it also says it confirms, so why not lay them down side by side and notice where the Quran fills in the blanks, and how it confirms many of the Scriptures that came before.

 

Lots of controversy over that one, but all arguments come from hadith. My experience is hadith prefers anything but what the Christians believe. From my studies I'm thinking that in order to be a complete Muslim, you must be a Christian first. ;)

 

All I wanna say is, forget "religion" keep reading and when God wants you to notice something, you will.

 

Interesting,

 

well i have a different take on it all - i am not a Muslim and I am not a Christian - I just really like and agree with everything I have read and understood from the Qur'an until now. Who knows what i will read to morrow ... ha ha, maybe i will change my mind.

 

If everybody follows the Qur'an, the world would be heaven.

 

From what i have understood from the Bible so far, the world would be chaos if everybody followed it... but like I said, my understanding of the Bible is totally confused, so that might be the reason. So, if everybody was tons more intelligent then me, than maybe the bible would work. So maybe we are all just not smart enough to live in peace by the Bible ;-) or maybe I am  exceptionally stupid... ha ha ha i don't know. The bible is just chaos and contradictions for me so far at least... maybe i will get it one day.

 

I think there are something like 2500 religions/sects that base them selves on the bible, and they all disagree ... ha ha ha. Does not sound like peace is very possible by the bible...

 

The Qur'an on the other hand, seem to be easier for people to get, just by counting the number of people in agreement, and the extremely much lover variety of different opinions, should give a hint...

 

So to me - this entire debate about whether Islam is right og Christianity is right - it is over before it started. Just look at the book in each religion, and you have your answer already. 2500 - that is a lot... of confusion... and that is supposed to be the word of God ?

 

Islam - there is no big difference between any groups in Islam. Shia and sunie for example, can go to the same Mosque even - so there is no big deal.

 

If i were to believe in God, there is no doubt that I would assume Islam was the correct religion. There are no other alternatives, if you want to be logical and rational about it.

 

On the other hand like I said, i am unable to believe that God exist.

 

If i did - i would be a Muslim for sure. I live like a Muslim, except for praying and so fort. The rest I follow - because I believe in the teaching of the Qur'an about how we should live.

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All I wanna say is, forget "religion" keep reading and when God wants you to notice something, you will.

 

Beautifully said!

 

Listen to what your conscience is telling you.

 

The only problem is that if you keep ignoring your conscience, it could decide to take a very, long break and ultimately remove you from its list.

 

The patient will then be no longer have a doctor.

 

 My experience is hadith prefers anything but what the Christians believe. 

 

 

I don't think your conclusion is quite on the mark

 

Every hadeeth collection is different.

 

Sunnis have six sets of so-called 'perfect'  hadeethes.

 

Shias have been smart enough to refrain from any such declarations.  

 

Unlike the Quran, no hadeeth book is completely acceptable to us.

 

While we do prefer certain hadeethes over others, there is no such thing as a perfect or an infallible collection.

 

After historical research, individual hadeethes have been declared with a tag acknowledging an associated level of their quality. 

 

We cannot generalize as if hadeethes all belonged to the same basket. 

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How do you explain everything around you?

 

I made a toy boat for my child - and if you ask him to explain it, he said that dad made it. So then you ask him who made dady ? he wil say grandpa ? Then you ask who made granpa ? he wil be quite for some time and tell you that he does not know...

 

The question is not if someone made it all - it really don't matter who made it - the question is where did it all start ? Can there have been a creator ? The answer is no - it is impossible.

 

Because nothing can be made from nothing... so nothing have ever been created. It simply must always have existed.

 

And if there can not have been a creator, how can I believe there is a God ?

 

If you can take an object and turn it in to nothing, i will believe in god immediately. But it is impossible. Nothing can go from being something, to being nothing, and nothing can come from nothing in to being something.

 

You can not make a rock out of Nothing - even if you are god. Because something that exist, can not disappear in to nothing.

 

So what ever God used to make a rock must have always existed, so at best God just changed things, like you can change a tree to a house.

 

You can do an experiment - take an object and turn it in to nothing. How ? The very atoms and particles that it is made out of, will always exist. You can burn it, in to aches and gas, but it will continue to exist... what ever you do. Nothing can disappear, everything is eternal.

 

Therefor God can not exist !

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Wrong

 

Read 'A Universe from nothing' by Lawrence Krauss.

 

I already have ... it is impossible to have something start to exist from nothing.... anybody that don't agree - don't understand what nothing is.

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Then you have not read the book, my dear friend

 

-----

 

Lawrence Krauss is, like you, actually an atheist.

 

But for completely the opposite reason.

 

You believe that nothing can come from nothing, therefore God does not exist.

 

He believes that something can come from nothing and therefore God does not exist.

 

I think I will let you sort it out with him. 

 

Cheers from me

 

I have heard many of the talks, i have read many of the articles and i have read the book. It makes no difference. Like I said, if you understand what nothing is - you know that everything is eternal - nothing was ever created from nothing.

 

As a child - one can ask where a line will end if you draw it out in to the sky, beyond the stars and straight out of the universe. The answer is that there is no end. Time is the same, there was not beginning. There is no end. The only reason why we can not accept eternity as a reality, is that we are scared of it. But everything is eternal, time, space, everything..

 

Things only move, nothing new comes, and nothing ends... some say only the constellations can be perceived as new, but they are not... they also have always existed... like a movement you are about to make ... it also have always existed. Many have dejavu.. like they have seen something or had a dream about something that happened ... that is because is has happened... it has always existed.

 

Baqar : I don't think I can be defined as an atheist - but that is a longer story. Now about Krauss - i think he is ignoring some very elementary facts, because he is desperate to explain it all. I think there is a power - call it God if you will, but it is not a creator, it is an eternal one... that has always existed, just like we all do and always have.

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Lawrence Krauss is, like you, actually an atheist.

 

But for completely the opposite reason.

 

You believe that nothing can come from nothing, therefore God does not exist.

 

He believes that something can come from nothing and therefore God does not exist.

 

I think I will let you sort it out with him. 

 

Cheers from me

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Interesting,

 

well i have a different take on it all - i am not a Muslim and I am not a Christian - I just really like and agree with everything I have read and understood from the Qur'an until now. Who knows what i will read to morrow ... ha ha, maybe i will change my mind.

 

If everybody follows the Qur'an, the world would be heaven.

 

From what i have understood from the Bible so far, the world would be chaos if everybody followed it... but like I said, my understanding of the Bible is totally confused, so that might be the reason. So, if everybody was tons more intelligent then me, than maybe the bible would work. So maybe we are all just not smart enough to live in peace by the Bible ;-) or maybe I am  exceptionally stupid... ha ha ha i don't know. The bible is just chaos and contradictions for me so far at least... maybe i will get it one day.

 

I think there are something like 2500 religions/sects that base them selves on the bible, and they all disagree ... ha ha ha. Does not sound like peace is very possible by the bible...

 

The Qur'an on the other hand, seem to be easier for people to get, just by counting the number of people in agreement, and the extremely much lover variety of different opinions, should give a hint...

 

So to me - this entire debate about whether Islam is right og Christianity is right - it is over before it started. Just look at the book in each religion, and you have your answer already. 2500 - that is a lot... of confusion... and that is supposed to be the word of God ?

 

Islam - there is no big difference between any groups in Islam. Shia and sunie for example, can go to the same Mosque even - so there is no big deal.

 

If i were to believe in God, there is no doubt that I would assume Islam was the correct religion. There are no other alternatives, if you want to be logical and rational about it.

 

On the other hand like I said, i am unable to believe that God exist.

 

If i did - i would be a Muslim for sure. I live like a Muslim, except for praying and so fort. The rest I follow - because I believe in the teaching of the Qur'an about how we should live.

 

Greetings solitair,

 

A couple of things stood out for me in this post of yours.

You say; "If everybody follows the Qur'an, the world would be heaven."

but for me, the Qur'an promotes prejudice.

 

You say that you understand Qur'an but find the Bible confusing...

I'm thinking maybe our own particular culture disposes us to understand one scripture better than another.

 

You say; "I think there are something like 2500 religions/sects that base them selves on the bible, and they all disagree ... ha ha ha. Does not sound like peace is very possible by the bible..."

but though you have all those differing views you do not see the people who follow the Bible warring with one another over them... so yes, the message of the Bible is one of peace and acceptance, and Love.  You must understand however, that you can not take one (the old testament) without the other (the new testament... i.e., the new covenant of God).  The new testament reveals all that was hidden(i.e., prophesied) in the old testament... and reveals God's new way... His new covenant with His creation.

 

You say; "Islam - there is no big difference between any groups in Islam. Shia and sunie for example, can go to the same Mosque even - so there is no big deal."

I have attended all different sorts of Christian churches... even Jehovah's Witnesses... and I have even attended a Jewish synagogue with welcome.  I can walk into any church I choose at any time with no qualms whatsoever about fitting in.

 

Live like a Muslim... live like a Christian... it is the same thing if you are a believer... if you believe, you submit to the will of the Creator... according to the words of Jesus... "Thy will be done".  Even if you are not a believer, as you say... you can still live like one, and I think that makes you a child of God.  :)

 

Salaam and blessings,

CLynn

I made a toy boat for my child - and if you ask him to explain it, he said that dad made it. So then you ask him who made dady ? he wil say grandpa ? Then you ask who made granpa ? he wil be quite for some time and tell you that he does not know...

 

The question is not if someone made it all - it really don't matter who made it - the question is where did it all start ? Can there have been a creator ? The answer is no - it is impossible.

 

Because nothing can be made from nothing... so nothing have ever been created. It simply must always have existed.

 

Greetings solitair,

 

Correct.  Something must have existed to create all this... and that something we call God.  I call Creator.  We can not specify precisely what that Creator is.  We (as those who believe in the Christ) know that the Creator came to us in human form that we might better be able to relate and understand.

 

 

. Nothing can go from being something, to being nothing, and nothing can come from nothing in to being something.

 

Can't it?  Are you sure?  I can not do this, but this does not mean that there is not a power that can.

 

Study sometime how sound... vibrations... Word... can create patterns... geometric patterns... mathematical building blocks.

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (Christian scripture)

 

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

What if God/Creator is energy?  Energy has the power to create.  Sound has the power to create... sound generated by the force of energy.

 I think there is a power - call it God if you will, but it is not a creator, it is an eternal one... that has always existed, just like we all do and always have.

 

Ah, then... it sounds as though we are on a similar page... just with slightly different understanding.  I view the 'eternal one' as the One that created. :)

If that means changing the 'form' of the void into tangible objects, so be it.

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You mean the Catholic church?

 

Has the Catholic church also declared  their assessment of the books of other religions - the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Guru Granth Sahab, the books of Buddha, Confucius, Tao, Zarathustra etc?.

 

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think they have issued an encyclical or other official document in regard the Quran.

 

But if you think they have, could you please provide the reference.   

 

I am just interested. That is all.

 

That may be proof for you but not for those looking for supportive arguments.

A proof must be based on logic, not one's personal perception. 

A specific encyclical or other doctrinal document about the Qur'an doesn't exist and will probably never be issued. Simply because commenting in detail on the doctrine of non-Christian religions is not the purpose of the magisterium of the Catholic Church.

 

However; Islam is mentioned in Nostra Aetate, a declaration issued by the Second Vatican Council on the Catholic Church's position on non-Christian religions issued in 1965 and still the guiding doctrinal document on this matter.

 

It states:

 

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

 

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

 

Source:  http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

I hope this answers your question!

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Hi Wisdom,

Responding to Post 167:

The verses you used from Surah 2:170-171, have to do with the idolaters that Muhammad encountered in the first years at Madinah --- The context says:

164 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail (follow) like their slaves between the sky and the earth; - (Here) indeed are Signs (of God’s Sovereignty) for a people that are wise.

165 Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides God, as equal (with God): They love them as they should love God. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for God. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to God belongs all power, and God will strongly enforce the penalty.

168 O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one (Satan), for he is to you an avowed enemy

169 For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of God that of which ye have no knowledge

170 When it is said to them: "Follow what God hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

171The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

172 O ye who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to God, if it is Him ye worship.

Notice the contrast between these two verses, and how Satan could control the idolaters and lead them away from God:

169 For he (Satan) commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of God that of which ye have no knowledge

172 O ye who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to God, if it is Him ye worship.

(Certainly nothing about Jews or Christians there, and Jews and Christians are grateful to God, and worship Him.)

Placid

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Would you kindly be good enough to justify your statement.

 

Thank you.

 

Greetings PeaceLoving,

 

The things I read in the Qur'an don't seem to promote brotherhood of all mankind, but rather it wants to always highlight, naming and separating, groups of people from one another, rather than promoting a view of treating all people equally as Yshwe(Jesus) did.  I think we all come to serve the Creator, and His creation, better when we do not seek to divide ourselves by labels, and when those labels are not provided in our scriptures.

asalaam,

CLynn

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The things I read in the Qur'an don't seem to promote brotherhood of all mankind,

 

Don't use the word  'seems'.

 

'Seems' is not good enough as proof.

 

it wants to always highlight, naming and separating, groups of people from one another

 

It insists on separating the evil from the good.

 

it dos not separate people on account of their race, nationality or surprisingly even religion.

 

There is ample evidence of praise for the good among Jews and Christians and there is more than ample evidence of censure for Muslims.And the opposite as well. 

 

If anything, that approach demolishes all charges of prejudice.

 

 I think we all come to serve the Creator, and His creation, better when we do not seek to divide ourselves by labels, and when those labels are not provided in our scriptures.

 

That means nothing. It is beside the point.

 

Labels do not imply prejudice.

 

As I said, there is heavy emphasis in the Quran on deeds.

 

And it does need to talk about the good and the bad.

 

Once again, that does not imply prejudice.  

 

You,my dear, have charged the Quran with prejudice.

 

Now stand by your slanderous and disparaging words and prove yourself, if you can. 

 

Let's get going and not waste each other's time..

I think we all come to serve the Creator, and His creation, 

 

What a brilliant idea!

 

But then why keep on throwing filth on others all the time.

 

You have been in trouble with people before for trying to insult Islam.

 

But your heart is not clear. 

 

You will not change.

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Hi Wisdom,

Responding to Post 167:

The verses you used from Surah 2:170-171, have to do with the idolaters that Muhammad encountered in the first years at Madinah --- The context says:

164 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail (follow) like their slaves between the sky and the earth; - (Here) indeed are Signs (of God’s Sovereignty) for a people that are wise.

165 Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides God, as equal (with God): They love them as they should love God. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for God. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to God belongs all power, and God will strongly enforce the penalty.

168 O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one (Satan), for he is to you an avowed enemy

169 For he commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of God that of which ye have no knowledge

170 When it is said to them: "Follow what God hath revealed:" They say: "Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers." What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?

171The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

172 O ye who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to God, if it is Him ye worship.

Notice the contrast between these two verses, and how Satan could control the idolaters and lead them away from God:

169 For he (Satan) commands you what is evil and shameful, and that ye should say of God that of which ye have no knowledge

172 O ye who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to God, if it is Him ye worship.

(Certainly nothing about Jews or Christians there, and Jews and Christians are grateful to God, and worship Him.)

Placid

Your post makes clear how lacking in knowledge you are about the Holy Quran.

There are many verses in the Quran that refer to specific examples, every one of those single verses can be applied to a scenario where the criteria fits.

For example a person in 2017 arguing with a Muslim that Islam is false, violent and the same time the Muslim is trying to show this person the truth of the Quran and this person does not understand.

That verse applies in this once again.

It also applies to any disbelievers( Christians, Jews) attempting to spread falsehoods about the Islam, trying to fight it through verbal methods and bad language the verse applies again.

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Greetings PeaceLoving,

The things I read in the Qur'an don't seem to promote brotherhood of all mankind, but rather it wants to always highlight, naming and separating, groups of people from one another, rather than promoting a view of treating all people equally as Yshwe(Jesus) did. I think we all come to serve the Creator, and His creation, better when we do not seek to divide ourselves by labels, and when those labels are not provided in our scriptures.

asalaam,

CLynn

I would also like to see some examples of the Quran discriminating people. Unless you think of the division between believers and nonbelievers, male and female (that was no different in the Christian world) I remember not having read anything such.
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Don't use the word  'seems'.

'Seems' is not good enough as proof.

 

Greetings PeaceLoving,

 

I must use quick reply format.  I hope I do not seem rude.

One must use the word 'seems', because what meaning one takes from scripture always depends on the individual.  I can not claim that what they say to me is necessarily the same to another person.  I only know what they seem to say, to me.

 

 

It insists on separating the evil from the good.

it dos not separate people on account of their race, nationality or surprisingly even religion.

There is ample evidence of praise for the good among Jews and Christians and there is more than ample evidence of censure for Muslims.And the opposite as well. 

 

Regardless, it insists on separating people into groups.  To me this just promotes ideas of prejudice, rather than recognizing that we are all one and the same.

 

If anything, that approach demoishes all charges of prejudice.

 

I disagree.

 

Labels do not imply prejudice.

 

Labels promote ideas of separation... of difference.  We are all capable of good and of evil.  No one is better or worse than another.  We are all subject to the temptations of this world.

 

But your heart is not clear. 

 

My heart is clear.  I want all people to love all people. :)

 

asalaam and blessings,

CLynn

It also applies to any disbelievers( Christians, Jews)

 

Greetings Wisdom Lion,

Can a muslim be a disbeliever?

Shukran and salaam for reply,

CLynn

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I would also like to see some examples of the Quran discriminating people. Unless you think of the division between believers and nonbelievers, male and female (that was no different in the Christian world) I remember not having read anything such.

 

Greetings andres,

 

It is the regular use of delineating words for groups of people, Jews, Christians, Muslims... as though all people within those groups are equal with one another.  I feel that this promotes a prejudice in the mind for all people who fall into a certain ethnic or cultural group. 

 

It was the same as not wanting to be known as a 'German' after WWII.  The Qur'an if it does not directly say, it implants the idea in the mind, that the Jews are under the wrath of God... would this be true of all Jews?  What about the Messianic Jews?  ... and that the Christians are astray... off the path of God... this may be true for many who call themselves 'Christian', but is this true for all?  For those who are not careful about their scriptures, this implants very dangerous ideas and prejudice.

 

  People must be treated as individuals.  Remember the good samaritan?  Samaritans, as a group, bore a wrongful prejudice in peoples minds of not being good people.  It is unhelpful to classify people into groups.

 

asalaam,

CLynn

Could you kindly give examples for your assertions.

 

Thank you.

 

Greetings PeaceLoving,

 

I am low on energy and hurting for the last few days, but I will try.

I am sure if you consider you will know the verses I am speaking of.  Anytime the scripture finds it necessary to refer to people as Jew, Christian, or Muslim.

 

Peace to you,

CLynn

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Hi Clynn

 

Perhaps you should read the following

 

The Quran on various groups and on all men

 

 

All men

 

[24:37-38] Men whom neither merchandise can divert from the remembrance of God nor the observance of prayer and payment of obligatory charity. They fear a day when hearts shall throb and eyes shall roll. That God may reward them for the best of what they did and increase their share in His bounty. God does provide for whom He wills without measure. 

   

Muslims

 

 

[33:23] Among believers, there are some who have been true to their covenant with God. Some have fulfilled their vows (the terms of the covenant), while others are still waiting (dithering) and they have not changed a bit (from their former state as non-believers).

   

People of the Book (includes Jews & Christians)

 

[2:121] Those We have given the Book and read it as it ought to be read - they believe in it (its teachings). Those who disbelieve are the losers.

 

 

[3:75] Among the People of the Book, there are some, who if you entrust them with a treasure, they will return it to you. There are also those who, if you give them one dinar (a unit of money),  they will never give it back to you unless you keep reminding them.

 

[3:113-115] They are not all the same.

 

Among the People of the Book, there are some righteous ones who recite the messages of God during the nightThey believe in God and the reckoning, enjoin the good and forbid the evil and vie with one another in good works. Whatever good they do, the reward will not be denied to them. And God knows the righteous (the God-fearing).

 

 

[3:199] Among the people of the Book, there are some who believe in God and what has been sent down to you and to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not barter the signs of God for a mean price. They shall have their reward with their Lord. Verily, God is swift to take account.

 

 

[5:65-66]If  the people of the Book believe and fear God, We would acquit them of their evil deeds and bring them into gardens of delight.  If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel which have been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have been blessed with good things from above them and from below their feet.  There are some among them who act aright but many of them do evil things.

 

Jews & Christians

 

[2:62] Indeed, believers, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans - whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and acts aright - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

 

[5:69] Indeed, believers, Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians - whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and acts aright, there shall no fear for them neither shall they grieve.

 

Jews

 

[7:137] And We gave to the weak the eastern and the western lands to inherit. And the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because their endured (their hardships) patiently. And We destroyed the Pharaoh and his people completely.

 

[7:159] Among the people of Moses, there were people who guided (others) with the truth and thereby they acted justly.

 

[7:168] And We divided them upon the earth as peoples -some were righteous while others were not. And We tried them with blessings  and adversities, haply that they might turn (to obedience).

 

[32:23-24] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses. So be not in doubt as to the revelation thereof.  We made it a guidance for the children of Israel. And We appointed leaders from among them after they had persevered with patience and firmly believed in our signs.

 

 

Christians

 

[5:83] And when they (Christians) hear that which has been sent down to the Apostle, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears at the truth they recognize therein, saying, 'Our Lord! we believe, write us down therefore with those who bear witness to it'.

 

[5:84] And why should we not believe in God, and in the truth which hath come down to us, and crave that our Lord would bring us into Paradise with the Just?'

 

[5:85] Therefore God rewarded them for their words with gardens beneath which the rivers flow. They shall abide therein forever. This is the reward of the righteous!

 

True believers

 

 

[2:207] And there is among men one who sells his soul in order to please God and God is good to his servants.

 

[3:17] The patient, the truthful, the humble and the charitable, and those who seek forgiveness at daybreak.

 

[9:112] Those who turn to God, and those who serve, who praise, who fast, who bow down, who prostrate themselves, who enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil, and keep to the bounds of God . . . Wherefore bear these good tidings to the faithful.

 

[33:35] Men and women who have submitted (to the Will of God), believing men and believing women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men and truthful women, forbearing men and forbearing women, humble men and humble women, men and women who give in charity, men who fast and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember God oft -- for them God has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward.

 

[76:8] And (those who) feed the poor, the orphan and the captive, out of His love.

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Hi Clynn

 

Perhaps you should read the following

 

The Quran on various groups and on all men

 

 

All men

 

[24:37-38] Men whom neither merchandise can divert from the remembrance of God nor the observance of prayer and payment of obligatory charity. They fear a day when hearts shall throb and eyes shall roll. That God may reward them for the best of what they did and increase their share in His bounty. God does provide for whom He wills without measure. 

   

Muslims

 

 

[33:23] Among believers, there are some who have been true to their covenant with God. Some have fulfilled their vows (the terms of the covenant), while others are still waiting (dithering) and they have not changed a bit (from their former state as non-believers).

   

People of the Book (includes Jews & Christians)

 

[2:121] Those We have given the Book and read it as it ought to be read - they believe in it (its teachings). Those who disbelieve are the losers.

 

 

[3:75] Among the People of the Book, there are some, who if you entrust them with a treasure, they will return it to you. There are also those who, if you give them one dinar (a unit of money),  they will never give it back to you unless you keep reminding them.

 

[3:113-115] They are not all the same.

 

Among the People of the Book, there are some righteous ones who recite the messages of God during the nightThey believe in God and the reckoning, enjoin the good and forbid the evil and vie with one another in good works. Whatever good they do, the reward will not be denied to them. And God knows the righteous (the God-fearing).

 

 

[3:199] Among the people of the Book, there are some who believe in God and what has been sent down to you and to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not barter the signs of God for a mean price. They shall have their reward with their Lord. Verily, God is swift to take account.

 

 

[5:65-66]If  the people of the Book believe and fear God, We would acquit them of their evil deeds and bring them into gardens of delight.  If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel which have been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have been blessed with good things from above them and from below their feet.  There are some among them who act aright but many of them do evil things.

 

Jews & Christians

 

[2:62] Indeed, believers, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans - whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and acts aright - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

 

[5:69] Indeed, believers, Jews, Sabaeans, and Christians - whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and acts aright, there shall no fear for them neither shall they grieve.

 

Jews

 

[7:137] And We gave to the weak the eastern and the western lands to inherit. And the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because their endured (their hardships) patiently. And We destroyed the Pharaoh and his people completely.

 

[7:159] Among the people of Moses, there were people who guided (others) with the truth and thereby they acted justly.

 

[7:168] And We divided them upon the earth as peoples -some were righteous while others were not. And We tried them with blessings  and adversities, haply that they might turn (to obedience).

 

[32:23-24] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses. So be not in doubt as to the revelation thereof.  We made it a guidance for the children of Israel. And We appointed leaders from among them after they had persevered with patience and firmly believed in our signs.

 

 

Christians

 

[5:83] And when they (Christians) hear that which has been sent down to the Apostle, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears at the truth they recognize therein, saying, 'Our Lord! we believe, write us down therefore with those who bear witness to it'.

 

[5:84] And why should we not believe in God, and in the truth which hath come down to us, and crave that our Lord would bring us into Paradise with the Just?'

 

[5:85] Therefore God rewarded them for their words with gardens beneath which the rivers flow. They shall abide therein forever. This is the reward of the righteous!

 

True believers

 

 

[2:207] And there is among men one who sells his soul in order to please God and God is good to his servants.

 

[3:17] The patient, the truthful, the humble and the charitable, and those who seek forgiveness at daybreak.

 

[9:112] Those who turn to God, and those who serve, who praise, who fast, who bow down, who prostrate themselves, who enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil, and keep to the bounds of God . . . Wherefore bear these good tidings to the faithful.

 

[33:35] Men and women who have submitted (to the Will of God), believing men and believing women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men and truthful women, forbearing men and forbearing women, humble men and humble women, men and women who give in charity, men who fast and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember God oft -- for them God has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward.

 

[76:8] And (those who) feed the poor, the orphan and the captive, out of His love.

 

Greetings baqar,

Thank you very much for what you shared.  Clearly I still have much reading to do.

Would you say that muslims on the whole are familiar with these teachings?

Unfortunately the overall tone that I get from reading, is that ... 'We gave them guidance but they do not follow it'.

Perhaps however, that is only my own prejudice since I am unconvinced that Muhammad was a prophet of my God.  I can not say for sure.

I perceive praise at those points where these others come into agreement with what Muhammad says.

You see my opinion changes depending on what verses I am reading.  I do not find consistency in what the Qur'an says.  You see, to me, it seems to give a mixed message in its opinion on those who are not Muslim... wherein I find the confusion.

I find no problem in delineating believers and unbelievers, because there are those who obviously will not follow God and a righteous way, and those who do... but I do not believe these can be delineated by who calls themselves Muslim, or Christian, or Jew, or any otherwise... and to mention them by group name in the scriptures to me only promotes a 'we' and 'they' prejudice.  To me, the Qur'an, and Muhammad, clearly claim to have come because all those 'others' are wrong.  Why else bring a new message... one that talks about the ones that came before?  Again... it brings a mixed message.

These are simply my honest responses and I mean no offense.  It is just part of the confusion I find... in religion in general.  This is why I believe we must love all people.

Salaam and blessings,

CLynn

 

note:  I read through your post several times to clarify my thoughts.  I thank you very much again, for sharing.  I believe what is important... what delineates us as believer or unbeliever... is in how we follow the scriptures.  If they turn us against one another they can hardly serve the Creator's purpose.

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