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In the Name of God بسم الله

Christianity Is Created By Paul

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Hi Abu,

Quote from Post 137:

Islam has five pillars of practice and Five pillars of faith

The five pillars of practice are Tauhid, Prayer, Fasting, Charity, and Hajj. These are the same for Sunni and Shia although a few of the rules for these practices may differ ((but most are the same)

The five pillars of faith are Tauhid(belief in the Oneness of God), Adl(Belief that God is always just), Nabbuwat(Belief that God sends his message to mankind thru Prophets), Imamate(Belief that God appoints leaders over mankind), and Qiyyamat (Belief in the Afterlife and the Day of Judgement)

Response: --- Thank you, this is most interesting. I have a Booklet that explains the five Pillars of Islam. --- The first four, faith, prayer, fasting and charity, are ‘Pillars of Faith’ from the OT, and were practiced all through the NT as well.

The first one, Tauhid, Faith, --- is explained this way in the Booklet.

Quote: The religion of Islam demands from its believers, first Iman, faith, which their theologians define as “confession with the tongue and belief with the heart.” The fuller form of this confession is: “I believe in God, His angels, His books, His prophets, in the last day, in the predestination by the Most High God of good and evil, and in the resurrection after death.” --- End of quote.

This would come from Surah 2:

285 The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

--- And from Surah 4:

136 O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

This then is identified in the five pillars of faith, --- so to put them together we have:

1 Tauhid (belief in the Oneness of God), --- “Each one (of them) believeth in God,”

2 Adl (Belief that God is always just), --- “His angels, His books,” (that record His just dealing with mankind.)

3 Nabbuwat (Belief that God sends his message to mankind thru Prophets), --- “His prophets.”

4 Imamate (Belief that God appoints leaders over mankind), --- I suppose that would refer to the ‘Prophethood’ which is recorded in “the scripture which He sent to those before (him).” 4:136. (the former Scriptures)

5 Qiyyamat (Belief in the Afterlife and the Day of Judgment), --- “in the last day, and in the resurrection after death.”

--- They are close to reflecting the two verses that the statement of Faith is derived from. ---They shy away a little from endorsing the former Scriptures as the record of the Prophethood.

--- This is the first time I have seen these identifications of the five pillars of faith.

In the Booklet it also says:

Quote: There is, however, a briefer statement, known as the Kalima: “I believe there is no god but God; Muhammad is the Apostle of God.” --- End of quote.

(Quite a difference between the two statements, isn’t there?)

Placid

 

Actually, the last statement is called 'Shahada', the witnessing. Kalima means 'word'. 

'There is no God but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God' is the summarization of the Islamic Faith in one statement. 

 

Actually, there is no difference. The Shahada basically is giving us the 'golden chain' or the clear path that we can distinguish truth from Falsehood. We know things, but our knowing is biased, relative, and incomplete. We don't have the whole picture of what existence really is or in fact who we, ourselves, actually are. As muslims, we do not rely on our own knowledge or views regarding the important things (like who is God, life, death ,and the hereafter) but we accept whatever comes from God and try to follow it (this is the meaning of 'muslim') The Shahada is saying that we believe that everything that comes from Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) comes from God(s.w.a) and whatever comes from God(s.w.a) is true, correct, and should be followed. Since the ten pillars (five of belief and five or practice) came directly from the teachings of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h), these pillars are true, correct, and they are the path that will lead us to Paradise. Step one, truth of Prophet Muhammad's(p.b.u.h) absolutely established thru Shahadat. Step two, teachings are summarized in the ten pillars. Step three is the Sharia, or translating the teaching of the ten pillars into practical law. 

 

Here's where Islam and Christianity differ. Since Christians can't agree on the definitive source or basis for Christians teachings, the basis of belief is never established (like it is for muslims with the Shahada). Since the source or basis is never established, the core teachings of Christianity (like the ten pillars) vary wildly between denominations, and even within denominations (such as the recent issues with the Methodist Church and acceptance of gay marriage). Since the source or basis is never established, then Christian law (practical law based on core teachings) can never be established. 

 

Paul may not have been the sole cause of this, but what he did (i.e. divert Christianity from its origins and sever it's connections from the teachings of previous prophets such as Prophet Moses(peace be upon him)) so that Christianity would be more 'appealing' to the Gentiles, was his own idea and not based on the authentic teachings of Jesus(peace be upon him). This is the opinion of muslims and there is lots of evidence for this, some of which I have outlined in my book. 

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In terms of virtues like charity and justice I don't believe that they should be played off against each other. There has to be a certain ordening to society which promotes justice and protects the pe

If Jesus was born by a Virgin or not is not important and make no difference to me as a Christian. Nor does trinity. No one understands the relations between God and Jesus anyway.

Dear friend   I have very little knowledge of either Biblical history or of Paul's part in it. I can understand some of the objections that non-Christians might have. But I have a feeling that our Chr

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 Atheists and agnostics I call Secular.

 

Secular does not mean 'atheist' or 'agnostic'.

 

Atheism is a belief that God does not exist. Agnosticism is a doubt in the belief that God exists.

 

Secularism has nothing to do with either of those two beliefs.

 

Secularism is merely an approach that is not based on religion or on beliefs of any sort.   

 

I have already given you the example of secularism in countries where people from all walks of life work together for the common good of the country.

 

They are secular people but they also have a religion of their own.

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Hi Bagar

Can religious Muslims or Christians be defined as Seculars? Is Atheism a religion? This can become a long philosophical discussion. What I meant by "Secular" in my post was a person that does not believe God exist. Got it?

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I know plenty of religious people with secular roles in life.


By the way, the middle letter in my name is a 'q' as in 'queen'.

 

No offence.

 

Just thought I'd let you know. 


And by the way, I too am both religious as well as secular.

 

All my non-Muslim friends could attest to that.


When I meet them, I am meeting my friends, not thinking about their religion.

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There is an interesting book out by James Dunn called "Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?" ... in chapter 4 of that book he seems to suggest that Jesus was not God.

 

Here is part of a review of the book that talks about Chapter Four:

 

This chapter also includes treatment of key passages from Paul’s letters, such as Philippians 2:6-11 and 1 Corinthians 8:6. In the latter, Dunn highlights that one God is affirmed, and what is said about the one Lord uses prepositions indicative of agency (p.109). And in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 it is felt to be particularly clear that “the kyrios title is not so much a way of identifying Jesus with God, as a way of distinguishing Jesus from God” (p.110). Dunn regards Hurtado’s case for the Christ-devotion of the New Testament Christians having been controversial in their time as “surprisingly weak” (p.113), and draws attention to the lack of evidence for such controversy. Also in this chapter are treatments of the Book of Revelation, Jesus as God/god and Jesus as Last Adam.

 

Here is the link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0664231969/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1C7MK1A4FG23C0DGVEJJ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846

 

I would add my own two cents. I think Paul might have been a bit lost, but I don't think he was a devil worshiper or whatnot (I find that quite offensive honestly). Any decent Muslim who reads him can gain many spiritual insights from him. This doesn't mean that everything he said was right, but he did say a whole lot that was quite deep, thoughtful and even beneficial for us Muslims who like to think about Allah, morality and our overall purpose in life.  

 

I have especially enjoyed his discussions in Corinthians on why people disbelieve, why kufr leads to immorality and how sins alter our perceptions and intellect.  

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And by the way, I too am both religious as well as secular.

All my non-Muslim friends could attest to that.

When I meet them, I am meeting my friends, not thinking about their religion.

Hi Baqar

....but when you do not think about religion, you do not stop believing in God and the Prophet. I will therefore not characterize you as a secular person. Our understanding of the word differ, but we don't have to discuss the meaning of the word in this thread.

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Hi Abu,

Quote from Post 141:

Actually, the last statement is called 'Shahada', the witnessing. Kalima means 'word'.

'There is no God but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God' is the summarization of the Islamic Faith in one statement.

Actually, there is no difference. The Shahada basically is giving us the 'golden chain' or the clear path that we can distinguish truth from Falsehood. We know things, but our knowing is biased, relative, and incomplete. We don't have the whole picture of what existence really is or in fact who we, ourselves, actually are. As muslims, we do not rely on our own knowledge or views regarding the important things (like who is God, life, death ,and the hereafter) but we accept whatever comes from God and try to follow it (this is the meaning of 'muslim') The Shahada is saying that we believe that everything that comes from Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) comes from God(s.w.a) and whatever comes from God(s.w.a) is true, correct, and should be followed

Response: --- I especially like the verses that include Jews and Christians, whose religions descend from Abraham as well as Islam, for instance, the one I used that is included in the first statement of Faith, in Surah 4:

136 O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Since Surah 4 was revealed about year 4 of the Hijrah, there was already much Scripture given to Muhammad, because Surahs 2 and 3 were revealed before that, plus all of the Meccan Surahs.

136 O you who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle (Muhammad), and the Scripture which He (God) has sent to His Apostle (Muhammad), --- and the Scripture which He (God) has sent down before (him). --- Any who deny God, His angels, His Books (the Old and New Testaments, which were confirmed as the Canon of Scripture about 365 AD, which the Quran confirms as true), His Apostles (from the list of OT prophets as well as Zecharias, John, Jesus, and His Apostles, who said they were Muslims [surrendered ones] in 3:52]) and the Day of Judgment, --- have gone astray.

And then the confirmation and protection of the former Scriptures in Surah 5:

48 And unto thee (Muhammad) have We (God) revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it (the Torah and the Gospel), and a watcher (guardian) over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, --- For each We (God) have appointed a ‘divine law and a traced-out way.’ --- Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). --- So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

If we recognize that God has given (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) each a ‘divine law,’ --- and a ‘traced-out way,’ --- then we can recognize our differences in the ‘guidance and light’ that He has given each, --- but the instruction of following the Faith of Abraham is the same for each, is it not? --- And conducting ourselves honorably with love and mutual respect to our fellow man --- should be the standard for all alike, should it not? --- (In an ideal world)

--- And because we are together, though distinctive, we are to “Vie with one another in good works.” --- ‘Vie’ with one another means, ‘to outdo one another as in a race, or friendly competition, in doing good works.’

--- So the simple standard should be, “Have Faith in God and do His good works,” --- and He will reward the achievers.

Placid

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The bible has been change thousands of times. This is indisputable and is not the inspired Word of God. This has been confirmed by Christian scholars who have confirmed through thousands of manuscripts that differ in the thousands every one is different

 

I am not going to disagree with you that Paul made Christianity. I got this feeling at one time myself, and it has never left me. Paul started many churches, he did things that can be seen as the creation and as forming the beginning of Christianity. The man never even met Jesus. I have this feeling that he changed lots of things, and that he therefor is the start of the corruption of Christianity. One can wonder if it was not for Paul, maybe Jesus would have been the last prophet.

 

The son of God ? what ? Things like that, and other strange stuff that Paul inserted in to the Religion at the time, just defy logic so much that it surely can look like he was a serious trouble maker. I am thefor not a stranger to the theory that Paul is the greatest sinner, and in fact the creator of a false religion. But this is a very controversial topic, so controversial in fact that i don't dear to agree, but simply are saying that i am unable to disagree with you.

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I am not going to disagree with you that Paul made Christianity. I got this feeling at one time myself, and it has never left me. Paul started many churches, he did things that can be seen as the creation and as forming the beginning of Christianity. The man never even met Jesus. I have this feeling that he changed lots of things, and that he therefor is the start of the corruption of Christianity. One can wonder if it was not for Paul, maybe Jesus would have been the last prophet.

 

The son of God ? what ? Things like that, and other strange stuff that Paul inserted in to the Religion at the time, just defy logic so much that it surely can look like he was a serious trouble maker. I am thefor not a stranger to the theory that Paul is the greatest sinner, and in fact the creator of a false religion. But this is a very controversial topic, so controversial in fact that i don't dear to agree, but simply are saying that i am unable to disagree with you.

 

 

Remember that Paul is understanding the new religion through the lens of the Old Testament and hence his constant reference to it. The term son of God in the Hebrew Bible refers to angels as well as saintly and pious men (David is called the son of God as well). It is possible that Paul was referring to Jesus with a similar understanding.

 

As I said before, he might have been wrong on a number of things, but the man was very intelligent and spiritually inspirational. Muslims stand to benefit a lot from his spiritual insights. 

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Remember that Paul is understanding the new religion through the lens of the Old Testament and hence his constant reference to it. The term son of God in the Hebrew Bible refers to angels as well as saintly and pious men (David is called the son of God as well). It is possible that Paul was referring to Jesus with a similar understanding.

 

As I said before, he might have been wrong on a number of things, but the man was very intelligent and spiritually inspirational. Muslims stand to benefit a lot from his spiritual insights. 

Those that believe Paul was the enemy of Jesus are going by what they've been told, and what they've been told is very wrong. You can squelch all the accusations simply by reading about Paul in the NT. The main reason people don't read and find out the truth is because they prefer Paul stays the enemy. Ignorance is bliss...

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Hi again Solitair,

You seem to be trying to form an opinion about Paul and you are not very definite except that you say, --- “The man never even met Jesus.” --- But we have to check the Scripture.

Jesus was famous during His three and one half years of ministry and everybody knew Him and his disciples. --- And Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was attending Rabbinical School or University in Jerusalem under the great teacher, Gamaliel. --- Saul opposed the new movement as a Pharisee, and after the Church was growing, he set out to arrest the leaders and put them in prison to get them off the street.

--- He is first mentioned at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7:

58 And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Surah 9:1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest

2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.

4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying.

12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.

14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

--- (This was his conversion experience, and Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. --- The word Apostle means ‘one sent forth.’)

Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem and witness to the Jews but he was a rebel to them and they threatened to kill him, --- and here it is in Acts 22:

17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance

18 and saw Him (Jesus) saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’

21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’”

Placid

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I have started to read a little in you book, and have some questions.

I must say that I have not gotten so far, and maybe you address this in your book - but i don't have time to read all of it to find out until later because of work.

 

I have trouble understanding several things related to Jesus and Mary. I can not understand why God wanted to make a child with Mary - that was already with another man ? It is hard enough for me to understand why God would want to have a child with a human being at all - but the fact that it is a woman that already have a man ?

 

To have a child with someone, seems to me to be a vary intimate thing, and that Mary is a co parent with God himself ? What about Joseph ? It just feels so strange for me. If they found a boy, and adopted it - i would not feel the way i do inside, it is the very intimacy of having a child with God - that is hard for me.

 

If you have time, i would appreciate if you could explain this further for me.

Thank you, and i look forward to reading more of your book.

 

(By the way - as you are a moderator, why is it that i can only write a very restricted amount of messages until particular dates ?)

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^^^^ From what I know and this is just my opinion I could be wrong, is that God wanted to complete the cycle of creation. First He created Prophet Adam (as) without a mother or father. Then he created Prophet Jesus (as) without a father. Then he created us with a father and a mother. Now the cycle is complete.

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I have trouble understanding several things related to Jesus and Mary. I can not understand why God wanted to make a child with Mary - that was already with another man ? It is hard enough for me to understand why God would want to have a child with a human being at all - but the fact that it is a woman that already have a man ?

To have a child with someone, seems to me to be a vary intimate thing, and that Mary is a co parent with God himself ? What about Joseph ? It just feels so strange for me. If they found a boy, and adopted it - i would not feel the way i do inside, it is the very intimacy of having a child with God - that is hard for me.

In the Bible only two of the Gospel writers seem to know of the Virgin birth of Jesus and there is no contemporary report of it. It is probably a myth. Half human-half God myths is also known from ancient religions. A NT proof that Jesus was Gods Son
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Hi Abu,

Quoted from Post 141:

Here's where Islam and Christianity differ. Since Christians can't agree on the definitive source or basis for Christians teachings, the basis of belief is never established (like it is for Muslims with the Shahada). Since the source or basis is never established, the core teachings of Christianity (like the ten pillars) vary wildly between denominations.

Response: --- When I first came on Shiachat and said I wanted to learn about Islam, a Moderator, like yourself, said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.”

--- Having studied the Bible and seen that the main ‘proof of the Scriptures,’ is that the Prophecies of the OT were fulfilled in the NT. --- Then we see that the sources of ‘God’s word to mankind,’ began in the history and Prophecy of the OT.

The Prophets of old were ‘inspired’ to write ‘Messages’ that were fulfilled hundreds of years later, as Peter said in 2 Peter 1:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but ‘holy men of God spoke as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Spirit.’

--- They received Prophecies in the same way that Muhammad received Revelations, and the Prophets wrote them down.

--- The ‘Proof of a Prophet’ was the accuracy of his prophecies. --- This is how God tested and proved the true prophets, and exposed the false prophets. --- There would have to be some ‘short term’ prophecy that God ‘spoke through a Prophet,’ and then fulfilled within a few days or weeks, to prove that he was a Prophet of God. --- After they were proven to be genuine, then there were 'long term' Prophecies that guided the nation.

--- For instance, this was revealed and written some seven hundred years before Jesus was born, in Isaiah 7:

14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.”

--- And in Matthew, the first Book of the NT, after the genealogies from Abraham, --- through King David, and down to Jesus, through both Joseph (His foster father) and His Mother Mary, the Prophecy was fulfilled in Matthew 1:

20 Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him (Joseph) in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:

23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

--- So the name Jesus means ‘Savior.’--- The name Immanuel means Messiah.

The name Christ, ‘the Anointed One’ also means Messiah, so He was called Christ Jesus, Messiah and Savior.

--- Notice the ‘confirmation’ in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Because God was bringing in a New Covenant, or agreement with men of Faith, He restarted the Calendar as well.

--- In many countries on legal documents, the date is written after these words, “In the year of our Lord.”

So God was the Source, --- and Jesus was the Messenger of the New Covenant.

--- (So as not to make it too long, I will expand on your quote later)

Placid

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In the Bible only two of the Gospel writers seem to know of the Virgin birth of Jesus and there is no contemporary report of it. It is probably a myth. Half human-half God myths is also known from ancient religions. A NT proof that Jesus was Gods Son

 

Interesting, I have not thought about this - i mean how many people knew and talked about it. This seems to be an interesting thing do to about many such strange things in the bible actually.

 

Thanks -

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Hi Andres,

When I read your philosophy like in Post 161 I have to smile a little. --- Perhaps you are having a strange day.

While you pretend to be a Christian, --- one place, you nitpick over a word or two, thinking somebody made a mistake in the Scripture, --- and another place, you spend countless days trying to dispute an inheritance. --- And then when someone asks a simple question about the birth of Jesus, you conclude that it is perhaps a myth.

Since you seem to have no real convictions but flow with the opinions of others, your clarity seems to be like this:

COMMUNICATION

I KNOW THAT YOU BELIEVE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU THINK I SAID, BUT

I’M NOT SURE YOU REALIZE THAT WHAT YOU HEARD IS NOT WHAT I MEANT.

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Hi Placid

The belief of the largest Christian church is in: Virgin Birth, Purgatory, Trinity, Death of Jesus by crucifixion and that the Quran is not the true word of God. I disagree with the first three statements, you with the last three. Are we not both Cristian, even if we don't agree on everything?

As for spending time discussing on Shiachat, maybe you beat me. At least if estimated by the length of the posts.

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Hi Andres,

When I read your philosophy like in Post 161 I have to smile a little. --- Perhaps you are having a strange day.

While you pretend to be a Christian, --- one place, you nitpick over a word or two, thinking somebody made a mistake in the Scripture, --- and another place, you spend countless days trying to dispute an inheritance. --- And then when someone asks a simple question about the birth of Jesus, you conclude that it is perhaps a myth.

Since you seem to have no real convictions but flow with the opinions of others, your clarity seems to be like this:

COMMUNICATION

I KNOW THAT YOU BELIEVE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU THINK I SAID, BUT

I’M NOT SURE YOU REALIZE THAT WHAT YOU HEARD IS NOT WHAT I MEANT.

 

 

Don't be the mind police ha ha ha ;-)

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sop,placid, and andres are who we thought they were. 

Brainwashed, disillusioned people who's religious beliefs have been altered by average men thousands of times and yet adhere to these beliefs created by the damned to hell Paul. 

Quran 2:170

"And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?"

Quran 2:171

"The example of those who disbelieve is like that of one who shouts at what hears nothing but calls and cries cattle or sheep - deaf, dumb and blind, so they do not understand. "

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Interesting, I have not thought about this - i mean how many people knew and talked about it. This seems to be an interesting thing do to about many such strange things in the bible actually.

 

Thanks -

 

Greetings solitair,

 

The impression of Jesus, to the people of His time, was obviously that He was the Son of God... beginning with the appearance of the dove of the Holy Spirit at His baptism, where apparently the people heard the voice of God saying, 'this is My Son, in whom I am well pleased'.

 

And there was also the time in the garden of Gethsemane, when He was transfigured.

 

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

As another person I listened to stated... 'though He came in the flesh, there were times when His Divinity leaked through and was visible to be seen'

 

Why did the Jews take Jesus up before the Roman council for trial?  On what charge?

Why did the Roman council see fit to sentence Him?  On what charge?

This is why the scriptures have been written as they have.  They report what the people of the time witnessed, knew, and spoke about.

 

I am willing to contemplate the theories of you and Andres.  We do not know how the scriptures were originated, but I believe we have the assurance that they were divinely guided, inspired by the events of the time.  The proof is in the reading.

 

asalaam,

CLynn

Edited by CLynn
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The belief of the largest Christian church is in: Virgin Birth, Purgatory, Trinity, Death of Jesus by crucifixion and that the Quran is not the true word of God. 

 

You mean the Catholic church?

 

Has the Catholic church also declared  their assessment of the books of other religions - the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Guru Granth Sahab, the books of Buddha, Confucius, Tao, Zarathustra etc?.

 

Actually, come to think of it, I don't think they have issued an encyclical or other official document in regard the Quran.

 

But if you think they have, could you please provide the reference.   

 

I am just interested. That is all.

 The proof is in the reading.

 

That may be proof for you but not for those looking for supportive arguments.

A proof must be based on logic, not one's personal perception. 

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I am willing to contemplate the theories of you and Andres. 

 

I do not have a theory on this, I am frankly only confused about the Bible. I find the Bible completely confusing, and i am not claiming that it is wrong - i have no theories about what might be wrong about it, because as soon as i think i understand something about the bible i seem to find something else that contradict what i was thinking... oh well.. like i said, to me the bible is completely confusing.

 

I am not a christian and i am not a Muslim, so for me evidence - logic - is the only thing that matters. If you for example read the Qur'an, you can easily follow the logic and conclude whether something is possible or not. Reading the Bible on the other hand is like roaming around in complete chaos. I read something about how you need the holy spirit to help you understand, and was thinking that maybe the Bible is not possible to understand based on logic Maybe you can only understand if you have faith first.

 

Anyway, i am still trying - and than you so much for all the help.

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sop,placid, and andres are who we thought they were. 

Brainwashed, disillusioned people who's religious beliefs have been altered by average men thousands of times and yet adhere to these beliefs created by the damned to hell Paul. 

Quran 2:170

"And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?"

Quran 2:171

"The example of those who disbelieve is like that of one who shouts at what hears nothing but calls and cries cattle or sheep - deaf, dumb and blind, so they do not understand. "

Is that the best you can do?

 

Why not explain what you have against Paul. I think you have nothing more than a prejudice you've been told to have. I'd bet you wouldn't even know where to look.

 

Y'know what...Allah revealed Jesus. Does the Quran say anything against that? Does the Quran reveal any new rules, new laws? Show me.

 

So in your opinion disbelievers are those who____________

Edited by Son of Placid
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Interesting fact I just heard today...

 

the letters of Paul are arranged in the Bible according to length... longest to shortest.

 

I think the entire QUr'an might be also - i just noticed that it looks like it is noe that i think about it. Is that corect ? I have to check that now. ha ha ha

Son of Placid:

 

I just read that your interests are:

 

Watching Islam and Christianity come together.

 

I am just wondering what you mean by this ?

 

hmmm ... Islam is a religion - religion is a belief - religions  don't do anything... just like rules or systems also don't do anything - So do you mean to say Muslims and Christians ? A Muslim hanging out with a Christina, talking ?

 

Or are you - like it is written - watching the merger of the two religions ?

 

I'm really not getting what it is that you mean by this.

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In the Bible only two of the Gospel writers seem to know of the Virgin birth of Jesus and there is no contemporary report of it. It is probably a myth. 

 

In post #35 of the thread WHO COMPILED THE QURAN, you said that you believed in the testimonies of the NT, yet you reject the Virgin Birth. Aren't you contradicting yourself?  Anyway who do you think was Jesus' father? 

Edited by IloveImamHussain
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