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In the Name of God بسم الله

Christianity Is Created By Paul

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for sure St Paul was an Apostle and imbued with the Holy Spirit. If he had an influence on the direction of Christianity that's fine by me, since the Holy Spirit cannot err.

Plus like you stated about Circumcision and Mosaic Food, it can be debated also that it was not only St Paul but other Apostles who rejected those customs/traditions.

St Peter himself stood up and also said 'we' are not to circumcise anymore in ACTS 15.

The holy spirit (God) by definition cannot err. Paul could, the Apostles could, and so can we all.
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In terms of virtues like charity and justice I don't believe that they should be played off against each other. There has to be a certain ordening to society which promotes justice and protects the pe

If Jesus was born by a Virgin or not is not important and make no difference to me as a Christian. Nor does trinity. No one understands the relations between God and Jesus anyway.

Dear friend   I have very little knowledge of either Biblical history or of Paul's part in it. I can understand some of the objections that non-Christians might have. But I have a feeling that our Chr

You the one brought up Dean Burgon. I don't know if you read the articles through before pasting them, but that's his officially preferred Bible. Hopefully we don't have to go over it a thousand times.

"officially preferred bible"

It's the oldest greek bible found. He didn't create it. He compared current KJV to it, current KJV has thousands of changes, deletions, additions. If you make some more illogical comments I'm not gonna respond to you anymore because it's a waste of energy to type

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"officially preferred bible"

It's the oldest greek bible found. He didn't create it. He compared current KJV to it, current KJV has thousands of changes, deletions, additions. If you make some more illogical comments I'm not gonna respond to you anymore because it's a waste of energy to type

Figured you'd want to get back to Paul anyway.

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I am not able to read Koine Greek, and you seem not to be eithet. Very few can, so most of us depend on translations. Translating 2000 year old documents is not that simple, but if you dont believe KJB is a good translation from old Greek there are other translations to choose from.

Every version has thousands of differences. This is confirmed by Bible historians who are Christians whose excuse is " the message is what matters" Lol

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Every version has thousands of differences. This is confirmed by Bible historians who are Christians whose excuse is " the message is what matters" Lol

A better word than "version" would be "translation".  There may be thousands of differences, but they aren't very different.  I'd suggest you read the same passage in a few just so you know.  It is no more different than different translations of the Quran. 

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Every version has thousands of differences. This is confirmed by Bible historians who are Christians whose excuse is " the message is what matters" Lol .

 

Translaters make different translations so differences are unavoidably. Some books more difficult than others. Quran seems do belong in the difficult category. Please have a look:

 

Sahih International

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

 

Muhsin Khan

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

 

Pickthall

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

 

Yusuf Ali

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

 

Shakir

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

 

Dr. Ghali

And for their saying, "Surely we killed the Masih, Isa son of Maryam, (The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary) the Messenger of Allah." And in no way did they kill him, and in no way did they crucify him, but a resemblance of him was presented to them (i.e. the matter was made obscure for them through mutual resemblance). And surely the ones who differed about him are indeed in doubt about him. (Or: it, "that") In no way do they have any knowledge about him except the close following of surmise, and in no way did they kill him of a certainty.

 

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The holy spirit (God) by definition cannot err. Paul could, the Apostles could, and so can we all.

 

not in matters of faith and morals.

we went over this.

St Paul and St Peter and the rest of the Apostles are sinners and err, but not in teaching of faith and morals (doctrine).

Just keep attempting to divert the subject from the fact that bible scholars confirm current KJV is thousands of times different than oldest greek bible

 

i agree KJV is the wrong Bible.

People should stick to the Original Catholic one, after all we compiled it :)

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not in matters of faith and morals.

we went over this.

St Paul and St Peter and the rest of the Apostles are sinners and err, but not in teaching of faith and morals (doctrine).

I disagree with this. Pauls teaching that Jesus would return in the first century is proven wrong. Some morals change. Modern democrasies do not accept slavery
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A better word than "version" would be "translation". There may be thousands of differences, but they aren't very different. I'd suggest you read the same passage in a few just so you know. It is no more different than different translations of the Quran.

I'm glad you brought that up because that is easily refutable what you just said and easy to understand.

The Arabic translation is the EXACT same in every Quran. The bible is different in very language. The Quran is translated from Arabic to something else so it is natural for synonyms to be used

Even then, when different people translate to English the meaning is still the same just with synonyms being used.

This is very different from the bible because

", 3455 words were 'deleted', 839 words were 'added', 1114 words were 'substituted', 2299 words were 'transposed', and 1265 words were 'modified', making a total of 8972 artificial adjustments to what the Church claims is the 'unadulterated word of God'."

The Quran has no changes and there is no other Quranic Arabic version

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^ We are saying the same thing (that translations differ) and arriving at opposite conclusions. Are you saying that a person who can not understand the Arabic used in Arabia in the years when the Quran was revealed can not understand Islam? Are translations worthless because they are not divinely revealed?

You do know that the Bible was translated into English, don't you?

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^ We are saying the same thing (that translations differ) and arriving at opposite conclusions. Are you saying that a person who can not understand the Arabic used in Arabia in the years when the Quran was revealed can not understand Islam? Are translations worthless because they are not divinely revealed?

You do know that the Bible was translated into English, don't you?

What is your problem? It feels like you are in a huge level of denial.

The bible was altered with sentences added by people, sentences deleted , all unrelated to translations. That is simple and clear. We are not saying the same thing so don't even dare to attempt to say somebody added sentences or deleted sentences from the Quran because that is historically inaccurate.

It is historically accurate various people altered the bible and the Council of Nicea decided to believe in the trinity hundreds of years after Jesus.

From now on I'm only replying to comments that make sense on this thread instead of senseless comments like " are you saying so and so" when in fact I never said so and so. The Quran can be understood by people who read the translation in a different language because the translation is accurate and done by scholars, ideally a person should learn Arabic to read the Quran in Arabic as that is the language it was revealed in.

It's like how when you speak two different languages and the thought processes are a little different when you're thinking in your head in both languages. The meanings are the same but every language has it's own flow.

Christianity has thousands of different flows in all various languages as it has been changed by human hands

Accept Prophet Isa as your messenger and you will be hugged and greeted by Jesus when he returns with love

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Brother, I am not trying to argue, I just don't think I understand what you are claiming.

The major flaw of the Bible's various "versions" is that in most books the original Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew text no longer exists. But I've read bits and parts of a few of versions and not seen any major differences, with the exception that the Roman Catholic canon has additional books. I've read these additional books too, and they really pretty much duplicate the message presented in other books. Can you point out some theological or legal differences between some different "versions"?

I know there are theological and legal differences between different books contained within the Bible. I am not aware of different versions of the same book or passage having different meanings. Perhaps you can show some examples?

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Before it was words, now it's sentences. Then there's "The Arabic translation is the EXACT same in every Quran"."The Quran is translated from Arabic to something else so it is natural for synonyms to be used"  maybe you could make up your own mind before trying to confuse others?
 

Most good arguments are from those who have some knowledge of their own, not just one goof googling another goof and copying his words. So far, other than you're attitude of superiority(reminds me of every real Muslim, nowhere) everything else is copy/paste. I hope you are impressing yourself, cuz..."Yeah he dreamed up the pork in your stomach man" tells me you like your present level of ignorance. Add to that...A Muslim trys to correct you and you say he's in "a huge level of denial"? I guess that's what happens when you can't copy/paste and have to rely on your own wit.

 

I love it when people say "And don't even dare" lol. It's usually a sign they're not prepared to go there but think people will shudder at the very command. I asked you where the Quran says the Bible was altered and you give me three irrelevant ayahs, but bet you think you answered the call. Obviously you are a "one liner'" and think people swallow it and bow to your wizdum.

 

I'd ask you how you know what goes on in the head of someone speaking more than one language, but wouldn't want to set you up for any falsehoods.

I do recognize your internet intelligence (ability to google, copy/paste) and your effort to save yourself the energy of typing because we are barely worth your while, so for your own sake it might be to your advantage to take that one more step and go debate at your own level of intellect. I don't know where they are now but do know where they feed. I sincerely hope someone will be there to help you when you fall off your high horse.

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Brother, I am not trying to argue, I just don't think I understand what you are claiming.

The major flaw of the Bible's various "versions" is that in most books the original Aramaic, Greek, or Hebrew text no longer exists. But I've read bits and parts of a few of versions and not seen any major differences, with the exception that the Roman Catholic canon has additional books. I've read these additional books too, and they really pretty much duplicate the message presented in other books. Can you point out some theological or legal differences between some different "versions"?

I know there are theological and legal differences between different books contained within the Bible. I am not aware of different versions of the same book or passage having different meanings. Perhaps you can show some examples?

I thought you were a Christian by your post lol.

Let me tell you what I am claiming. The oldest Greek bibles found so far( obviously not the oldest because the true gospel and Torah have been lost) are the codex sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus. These two bibles are corrupted as well but for Christianity's sake were holding it as their standard

Dean burgeon as well as other various people like in the CNN link I posted have analyzed the current bibles of today, KJV.

When they compared current version of today to the oldest bibles found this current version had THOUSANDS of changes, deletions, additions, all kinds of human mingling.

This is confirmed by bible scholars who are also Christians.

I'm not saying all the bibles today are different though some small changes exist in saying these bibles in comparison to oldest bibles found have thousands of differences that do not relate to translations differences.

Do you see what I'm saying now?

Before it was words, now it's sentences. Then there's "The Arabic translation is the EXACT same in every Quran"."The Quran is translated from Arabic to something else so it is natural for synonyms to be used" maybe you could make up your own mind before trying to confuse others?

Most good arguments are from those who have some knowledge of their own, not just one goof googling another goof and copying his words. So far, other than you're attitude of superiority(reminds me of every real Muslim, nowhere) everything else is copy/paste. I hope you are impressing yourself, cuz..."Yeah he dreamed up the pork in your stomach man" tells me you like your present level of ignorance. Add to that...A Muslim trys to correct you and you say he's in "a huge level of denial"? I guess that's what happens when you can't copy/paste and have to rely on your own wit.

I love it when people say "And don't even dare" lol. It's usually a sign they're not prepared to go there but think people will shudder at the very command. I asked you where the Quran says the Bible was altered and you give me three irrelevant ayahs, but bet you think you answered the call. Obviously you are a "one liner'" and think people swallow it and bow to your wizdum.

I'd ask you how you know what goes on in the head of someone speaking more than one language, but wouldn't want to set you up for any falsehoods.

I do recognize your internet intelligence (ability to google, copy/paste) and your effort to save yourself the energy of typing because we are barely worth your while, so for your own sake it might be to your advantage to take that one more step and go debate at your own level of intellect. I don't know where they are now but do know where they feed. I sincerely hope someone will be there to help you when you fall off your high horse.

I do realize it may be a bit stressful finding out information that the book you've follow has human changes in it. It may be tough to take down at this point.

Besides that, I didn't find one relevant sentence in your post that has anything to do with the evidence I presented but rather you trying to make personal attacks on me. That's expected as a defense mechanism when you're at a loss of words.

In the Quran it says Jesus received the Gospels, Moses received the Torah and David received Psalms

Quran 4:163 Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]."

We know Allah is talking about the bible as Jesus receive the Gospels from him. Or maybe we can just consider the books he's talking about that got changed as something completely unknown to us to some unknown prophet. You can put two and two together.

Renounce Paul's religion and accept Isa peace be upon him as a Messenger of Allah, an his mother Mary peace be upon her who wore the hijab.

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@Son of Placid @andres

My Christian friends, I want us both to come to an understanding about Islam and Christianity to both get at it's roots and analyze as to what could be the true religion of Allah, The Most Merciful, The Most Compassionate, The All Knowing, The All Seeing

Even in one His names we recognize Him as the All-Knowing.

This is an accurate description of Allah, as being The All Knowing

Yet Christians do not accept Allah is the All-Knowing. They will come and say " God the Father" is All-Knowing but " God the son" which is Jesus is not All-Knowing with various different explanations such as " he's half man and half god so he doesn't know some things"

This is illogical because Allah is Always The All-Knowing. There is nothing that can limit His Knowledge.

It's also illogical because one being does know all, the other being even though it's him in human form and also his son doesn't know it? God is the father and he's also the son. This is simply illogical pagan beliefs decided at the Council of Nicea by average joe people with no holiness, just average people deciding on a religion that you are now claiming faith to.

http://m.livescience.com/2410-council-nicea-changed-world.html

What questions about Islam can we discuss and find the meaning of all of is together with only insightful comments that aim to seek the truth and with non-arrogance.

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Hi Wisdom,

Quote from Post 54:

Let me tell you what I am claiming. The oldest Greek bibles found so far( obviously not the oldest because the true gospel and Torah have been lost) are the codex sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus. These two bibles are corrupted as well but for Christianity's sake were holding it as their standard.

Response: --- Yet when I entered these previously, there was no comment.--- So, look at them again, The Codex Siniaticus, and The King James Version:

Quote: --- The beginning of the ‘Book of Revelation’ from the Codex Siniaticus from about 400 AD, which is called the “Oldest Bible in the world.”.

1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things that must shortly take place, and having sent by his angel he made it known to his servant John,

2 who became a witness to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, whatever things he saw.

3 Blessed is he that reads and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and that keep the things that are written in it; for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: grace to you and peace from him who is, and who was, and who comes, and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,

5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and that washed us from our sins in his blood,

6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and strength through the ages: amen.

7 Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yes, amen.

8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who comes, the Almighty.

9 I John, your brother and companion in the affliction and kingdom and patience in Jesus, was in the island that is called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

10 I was in-spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a voice great as that of a trumpet,

11 saying: What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that talked with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks,

13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like the Son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded about the breasts with a golden girdle;

14 but his head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire,

15 and his feet were like burnished brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and his voice as the sound of many waters;

16 and he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth went forth a sword two-edged, sharp, and his face as the sun when it shines in its strength.

17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not: I am the First and the Last,

18 and that lives, and I was dead, and behold, I am living from age to age, and have the keys of death and of hades.

19 Write therefore the things that thou sawest, and the things that are, and those that shall be after these,

20 the mystery of the seven stars that thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars and angels of the seven churches, and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.

The King James Version from 1611.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

--- So what are the differences that you are referring to?

Placid

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Renounce Paul's religion and accept Isa peace be upon him as a Messenger of Allah, an his mother Mary peace be upon her who wore the hijab.

 

loooooool, so based on that logic, I assume you walk around in a white dishdashi, sandals, long hair and a beard?

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loooooool, so based on that logic, I assume you walk around in a white dishdashi, sandals, long hair and a beard?

 

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0403.htm

 

The only disagreement among the early Church Fathers seems to be on whether virgins should be veiled or not; Tertullian here went a step further and advocated the niqab!

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loooooool, so based on that logic, I assume you walk around in a white dishdashi, sandals, long hair and a beard?

 

Only on FLA and San Fran.

My Christian friends, I want us both to come to an understanding about Islam and Christianity to both get at it's roots and analyze as to what could be the true religion of Allah, The Most Merciful, The Most Compassionate, The All Knowing, The All Seeing

 

 

If that was the case you should be asking instead of demanding your statements be accepted as truth. It's not like we all fell off the turnip truck on the same day.

I do realize it may be a bit stressful finding out information that the book you've follow has human changes in it. It may be tough to take down at this point.

I'm thinking you haven't got a clue who you're talking to let alone what you're talking about. You addressed your post to two non-trinitarians and went on to blab what you thought we were. Typical amateur mistake we can forgive if you're willing to understand.

 

Besides that, I didn't find one relevant sentence in your post that has anything to do with the evidence I presented but rather you trying to make personal attacks on me. That's expected as a defense mechanism when you're at a loss of words.

 

 

I'm at no loss for words, and I'm not defending what can defend itself. I was attacking your attitude, unfortunately, that is very connected to you. That is also why you find everything you don't agree with as irrelevent. You're not the first to come to this site full of fantasy and declare the truth from God, (aka livescience), probably not the last.

 

What questions about Islam can we discuss and find the meaning of all of is together with only insightful comments that aim to seek the truth and with non-arrogance.

 

A little late now to think of yourself as the grand non-arrogant facilitator. We've been doing rather well without you. You are many posts behind in this forum. Not too late to change tho.

Let's do some simple research into your borrowed claims. The Codex Vaticanus is actually the oldest, but when compared to the Sinaiticus you get perversions like...

2.12

εις την χωραν αυτων (into their country) – Β

εις την εαυτων χωραν (into their own country) – א

3.15

πρεπον εστιν ημας (it fitting us) – א cop it syr

πρεπον εστιν ημιν (it fitting for us) – Β

4.13

παραθαλασσαν (by the sea) – א W

παραθαλασσιαν (by the sea) – B

Good luck with calling such things perverted. These two codecies were written centuries apart, and found in two different places many centuries apart. Hand written by authors of different Greek dialect.

Think about this...You only have to travel a couple hundred miles before "you" becomes "Y'all" and "all of you" becomes "all y'all". Tell me which lingo is right and which one is perverted.

Your buddy Dean noticed a difference in dilect, oh goody for him. Why does the society named after him approve of the KJV? Because it is almost identical to the Vaticanus in it's translation...that's why. Written 200 years before Dean.

Now that the Codex Vaticanus is online you can go count the perversions yourself. It might be worth your while, ours too.

Your source, livescience has a rather unique story of the council of Nicea and I'd challenge you to read the same story from more reliable sources. Not CNN, lol. real sources.

 

The council was not split between the Alexandrians and the Arians. Matter of fact Constantine invited some 1800 scholars, that of which a little over 300 showed up. Arius was in and out of the council at the start, allowed back in at the end, but mysteriously died before he could be of any influence. There were only two others that agreed with him at the time.

The trinity was not a pagan design. Constantine did not stop at sayng Jesus and God were of the same substance. (That is closer to the view of Arius) The Nicean Creed makes the trinity not only same substance, but one God.

 

I like the graffiti ad lib...so typical of someone portraying their supernatural knowledge.

 

I don't know anyone who considers Jesus as half man, half God. He is either fully God and man, (trinitarians) or Jesus was a messenger, saviour, and Messiah, and God is God, as mentioned in the Quran.

 

In the Quran it says Jesus received the Gospels, Moses received the Torah and David received Psalms

 

Stop here for a minute and think. Do you really believe God gave each a different message?

The Quran does not say Jesus received the Gospels, It says He was given the Injeel by revelation. 9 times mentioned, never called a book, no record of Jesus carrying a book, Moses was told directly by God, not given a book. David was not given 150 songs, he was given insight he transformed into songs. Even Muslims can tell you that.

The message of Paul was Jesus a Messiah. Paul was not a Trinitarian. Mary, mother of Jesus wore a scarf to protect her from the sun as did all women and men at that time. Paul was the next one to say women should wear a covering in church. I'm surprised that's all you can say of Mary.

 

Do you really think Paul dreamed up the dietary laws written in Deuteronomy?

 

See what I mean about asking?

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http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0403.htm

 

The only disagreement among the early Church Fathers seems to be on whether virgins should be veiled or not; Tertullian here went a step further and advocated the niqab!

 

Jahangiram the Early or Patristic fathers can say anything they like.

There's nothing in our Church that says we have to believe ( i.e. make it a Doctrine for our Faith) anythng Church Fathers say.

 

Wearing of veils is simply tradition or custom of the time. it has nothing to do with the veracity or truth of one's belief.

Plus I really think nowadays women wear veils so they can speak on Mobile phones very easily. I noticed they insert the phone inside the veil onto the ear and presto hands free :)

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Paul created Christianity. Prophet Isa peace be upon him never said worship me, nor does it directly quote Jesus in the bible saying "worship me"

Paul never met Jesus. Paul claimed you can eat pork while all the Prophets did not. Paul stopped circumscion while Jesus himself was circumsiced.

Paul was the worker of the devil and I have no doubt is in eternal hell.

Prophet Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him and his family and all the other Prophets as well is the true faith of God.

Paul is follower of the devil and the Bible has been changed thousands of times which has been confirmed by bible scholars.

 

Dear friend

 

I have very little knowledge of either Biblical history or of Paul's part in it. I can understand some of the objections that non-Christians might have. But I have a feeling that our Christian  friends do find your style somewhat hurtful.

 

All I can say is that if we have concerns about the beliefs of others, ideally we should avoid unnecessary discussion. However, if we must discuss, we should be neither hurtful nor offensive. But as I can see, several people have found your approach a little offensive.

 

I will quote to you two verses of the Quran specifically on the subject of debates and discussions.

 

The following verse is about discussions with people in general

 

[16:125] Summon to the way of your Lord with wisdom and with kindly warning. Dispute with them in the kindest manner:. Your Lord best knows those who stray from His way, and He best knows those who have yielded to his guidance.

 

The next verse is about discussions with People of the Book in particular 

 

[29:46] Do not dispute with the people of the Book except in a kindly manner. Except with those of them as have dealt wrongfully with you: And say "We believe in what hath been sent down to us and has been sent down to you. Our God and your God is one, and to Him do we submit.

 

I hope you will kindly be a little careful in the future

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Words of everlasting wisdom from the Quran. I am not insulted but I dont understand why he dors not understand that translators translate differently when he can see for himself that english versions of both the Quran and Bible differ in reading. He says all translations into Arabic are identical. I think what he says is that there is only one existing translation into Arabic. Is this true? Is it not possible for Arabic speakers to read old Arabic?

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Words of everlasting wisdom from the Quran.

 

Thank you

 

He says all translations into Arabic are identical. I think what he says is that there is only one existing translation into Arabic. Is this true? I

 

The Quran is in Arabic.

 

There is no such thing as a translation of the Quran into Arabic.

 

Every language evolves over time. And currently there are many different brands of Arabic. 

 

Our Arabic speaking friend, Shreek will be able to tell you more on the subject.

 

But again, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as a translation of the Quran into Arabic or into one of its many dialects.

 

I will give you an example.

 

English spoken in the east end of London is very different from the high society English spoken by sophisticated Brits.

 

Shakespearean English is also very different from modern English.

 

But there is no such thing as a translation of one of Shakespeare's plays into modern English or one of its many dialects.

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Hi Wisdom,

While this is quite a fast moving topic, I don’t want us to lose sight of your main theme, ‘thousands of differences.’

I want to ask if there are any more differences in the Codex Siniaticus and The King James in Post 56, --- than the ‘choice of words’ of the translators?

Quote from Post 55:

Yet Christians do not accept Allah is the All-Knowing.

Response: --- This may be your perception, but that is because your focus is on the misunderstanding of who Jesus was, --- also the fact is that God never left heaven when Jesus was on earth.

You are not aware that in the New Covenant, God is represented as a Heavenly Father, and Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- which is what He was, because He had no human Father. --- But He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God who came from God, as it says in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

You see, The Word came from God and ‘was conveyed into Mary’ to be born in the Person of Jesus.

The verse that mentions the “Three” from heaven also corrects the teaching of the faulty doctrine of trinity, Surah 4:171. --- If you take time to study it through you will understand that Jesus was the Messenger who was given the Gospel, the “Good News” of salvation though Faith in God, and obedience to Jesus, as expressed in Surah 3:50-51.

--- The reason most Muslims would not want to be open about 4:171 is because it mentions not just God, --- but the Word (which was conveyed into Mary), --- and the Spirit from Him (God), who is the Holy Spirit

When the Word is capitalized in the Quran it represents 'God’s Power of Creation,' “Be” and it is, --- and it is used in relationship to Adam and Jesus in Surah 3:59.

And, it seems that the Holy Spirit is not readily acknowledged by most Muslims, --- however, the Holy Spirit was with Jesus from His conception. --- And after His ascension, as God promised in Acts 1:1-5, the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and others in Acts 2, --- and is mentioned in Surah 2:

87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit.

Also in 4:171, --- after naming God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- it says:

‘And say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.’

So this brings us back to the Sovereignty and All Knowing of God.

The Bible constantly reminds us that God is 'Above All,' and we can find these 7 Attributes of God (If we dare speak of Attributes in relation to God, because God is All in All.)

Almighty God is: --- Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, and Self Sufficient.

Placid

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Hi Wisdom,Quote from Post 54:Let me tell you what I am claiming. The oldest Greek bibles found so far( obviously not the oldest because the true gospel and Torah have been lost) are the codex sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus. These two bibles are corrupted as well but for Christianity's sake were holding it as their standard.Response: --- Yet when I entered these previously, there was no comment.--- So, look at them again, The Codex Siniaticus, and The King James Version:Quote: --- The beginning of the ‘Book of Revelation’ from the Codex Siniaticus from about 400 AD, which is called the “Oldest Bible in the world.”.1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things that must shortly take place, and having sent by his angel he made it known to his servant John,2 who became a witness to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, whatever things he saw.3 Blessed is he that reads and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and that keep the things that are written in it; for the time is at hand.4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: grace to you and peace from him who is, and who was, and who comes, and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and that washed us from our sins in his blood,6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and strength through the ages: amen.7 Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yes, amen.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who comes, the Almighty.9 I John, your brother and companion in the affliction and kingdom and patience in Jesus, was in the island that is called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.10 I was in-spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a voice great as that of a trumpet,11 saying: What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.12 And I turned to see the voice that talked with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks,13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like the Son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded about the breasts with a golden girdle;14 but his head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire,15 and his feet were like burnished brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and his voice as the sound of many waters;16 and he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth went forth a sword two-edged, sharp, and his face as the sun when it shines in its strength.17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not: I am the First and the Last,18 and that lives, and I was dead, and behold, I am living from age to age, and have the keys of death and of hades.19 Write therefore the things that thou sawest, and the things that are, and those that shall be after these,20 the mystery of the seven stars that thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars and angels of the seven churches, and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.The King James Version from 1611.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.--- So what are the differences that you are referring to?Placid

"3455 words were 'deleted', 839 words were 'added', 1114 words were 'substituted', 2299 words were 'transposed', and 1265 words were 'modified', making a total of 8972 artificial adjustments to what the Church claims is the 'unadulterated word of God'."

There's more than 700,000 words in the bible and you got a small selection, from who knows where. That's not close to the tot amount in the bible.

Only on FLA and San Fran.

 

If that was the case you should be asking instead of demanding your statements be accepted as truth. It's not like we all fell off the turnip truck on the same day.

I'm thinking you haven't got a clue who you're talking to let alone what you're talking about. You addressed your post to two non-trinitarians and went on to blab what you thought we were. Typical amateur mistake we can forgive if you're willing to understand.

 

 

I'm at no loss for words, and I'm not defending what can defend itself. I was attacking your attitude, unfortunately, that is very connected to you. That is also why you find everything you don't agree with as irrelevent. You're not the first to come to this site full of fantasy and declare the truth from God, (aka livescience), probably not the last.

 

A little late now to think of yourself as the grand non-arrogant facilitator. We've been doing rather well without you. You are many posts behind in this forum. Not too late to change tho.

Let's do some simple research into your borrowed claims. The Codex Vaticanus is actually the oldest, but when compared to the Sinaiticus you get perversions like...

2.12

εις την χωραν αυτων (into their country) – Β

εις την εαυτων χωραν (into their own country) – א

3.15

πρεπον εστιν ημας (it fitting us) – א cop it syr

πρεπον εστιν ημιν (it fitting for us) – Β

4.13

παραθαλασσαν (by the sea) – א W

παραθαλασσιαν (by the sea) – B

Good luck with calling such things perverted. These two codecies were written centuries apart, and found in two different places many centuries apart. Hand written by authors of different Greek dialect.

Think about this...You only have to travel a couple hundred miles before "you" becomes "Y'all" and "all of you" becomes "all y'all". Tell me which lingo is right and which one is perverted.

Your buddy Dean noticed a difference in dilect, oh goody for him. Why does the society named after him approve of the KJV? Because it is almost identical to the Vaticanus in it's translation...that's why. Written 200 years before Dean.

Now that the Codex Vaticanus is online you can go count the perversions yourself. It might be worth your while, ours too.

Your source, livescience has a rather unique story of the council of Nicea and I'd challenge you to read the same story from more reliable sources. Not CNN, lol. real sources.

 

The council was not split between the Alexandrians and the Arians. Matter of fact Constantine invited some 1800 scholars, that of which a little over 300 showed up. Arius was in and out of the council at the start, allowed back in at the end, but mysteriously died before he could be of any influence. There were only two others that agreed with him at the time.

The trinity was not a pagan design. Constantine did not stop at sayng Jesus and God were of the same substance. (That is closer to the view of Arius) The Nicean Creed makes the trinity not only same substance, but one God.

 

I like the graffiti ad lib...so typical of someone portraying their supernatural knowledge.

 

I don't know anyone who considers Jesus as half man, half God. He is either fully God and man, (trinitarians) or Jesus was a messenger, saviour, and Messiah, and God is God, as mentioned in the Quran.

 

Stop here for a minute and think. Do you really believe God gave each a different message?

The Quran does not say Jesus received the Gospels, It says He was given the Injeel by revelation. 9 times mentioned, never called a book, no record of Jesus carrying a book, Moses was told directly by God, not given a book. David was not given 150 songs, he was given insight he transformed into songs. Even Muslims can tell you that.

The message of Paul was Jesus a Messiah. Paul was not a Trinitarian. Mary, mother of Jesus wore a scarf to protect her from the sun as did all women and men at that time. Paul was the next one to say women should wear a covering in church. I'm surprised that's all you can say of Mary.

 

Do you really think Paul dreamed up the dietary laws written in Deuteronomy?

 

See what I mean about asking?

Lol the Injeel means Gospels of Jesus in English. You are a like a chicken with no head in this thread

Words of everlasting wisdom from the Quran. I am not insulted but I dont understand why he dors not understand that translators translate differently when he can see for himself that english versions of both the Quran and Bible differ in reading. He says all translations into Arabic are identical. I think what he says is that there is only one existing translation into Arabic. Is this true? Is it not possible for Arabic speakers to read old Arabic?

There is only Arabic version of the Quran and it is the Arabic in which it was Revealed in. Every Quran has the same exact Arabic. Though different scholars may use synonyms of a word when translating into another language the meaning is still the same

Hi Wisdom,While this is quite a fast moving topic, I don’t want us to lose sight of your main theme, ‘thousands of differences.’I want to ask if there are any more differences in the Codex Siniaticus and The King James in Post 56, --- than the ‘choice of words’ of the translators?Quote from Post 55:Yet Christians do not accept Allah is the All-Knowing.Response: --- This may be your perception, but that is because your focus is on the misunderstanding of who Jesus was, --- also the fact is that God never left heaven when Jesus was on earth.You are not aware that in the New Covenant, God is represented as a Heavenly Father, and Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- which is what He was, because He had no human Father. --- But He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God who came from God, as it says in Surah 3:45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;You see, The Word came from God and ‘was conveyed into Mary’ to be born in the Person of Jesus.The verse that mentions the “Three” from heaven also corrects the teaching of the faulty doctrine of trinity, Surah 4:171. --- If you take time to study it through you will understand that Jesus was the Messenger who was given the Gospel, the “Good News” of salvation though Faith in God, and obedience to Jesus, as expressed in Surah 3:50-51.--- The reason most Muslims would not want to be open about 4:171 is because it mentions not just God, --- but the Word (which was conveyed into Mary), --- and the Spirit from Him (God), who is the Holy SpiritWhen the Word is capitalized in the Quran it represents 'God’s Power of Creation,' “Be” and it is, --- and it is used in relationship to Adam and Jesus in Surah 3:59.And, it seems that the Holy Spirit is not readily acknowledged by most Muslims, --- however, the Holy Spirit was with Jesus from His conception. --- And after His ascension, as God promised in Acts 1:1-5, the Holy Spirit was given to the Apostles and others in Acts 2, --- and is mentioned in Surah 2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit.Also in 4:171, --- after naming God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- it says:‘And say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.’So this brings us back to the Sovereignty and All Knowing of God.The Bible constantly reminds us that God is 'Above All,' and we can find these 7 Attributes of God (If we dare speak of Attributes in relation to God, because God is All in All.)Almighty God is: --- Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, and Self Sufficient.Placid

Adam has no human father either or mother lol. In this logic he's even greater than Jesus. But really there is no logic in the idea that God is not all knowing because Jesus does not know when day of judgement is

He also was hungry, went to a fig tree to check it and saw nothing on it. He than cursed this tree even though it is a inanimate creation of God lol. Illogical and nonsensical

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Lol the Injeel means Gospels of Jesus in English.

 

 

ευαγγελιον is the original Greek word which translates to Gospel, or Injeel. (You might want to check my spelling in Greek in case I perverted it.) The term was used long before the "Gospels of Jesus in English" was ever written. What it refers to is the revelation given Jesus from God. The Injeel is the foundation of the Gospels, but the Injeel is not the Gospels in their entirety.

 

You are a like a chicken with no head in this thread

 

Pull up your pants and wipe your nose.

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ευαγγελιον is the original Greek word which translates to Gospel, or Injeel. (You might want to check my spelling in Greek in case I perverted it.) The term was used long before the "Gospels of Jesus in English" was ever written. What it refers to is the revelation given Jesus from God. The Injeel is the foundation of the Gospels, but the Injeel is not the Gospels in their entirety.

Pull up your pants and wipe your nose.

Jesus received Revelation from Allah that was changed by Paul and other people thousands of times. Many books of the bible were removed and your religion beliefs were formed by various human fallible people at the council of nicea

Your beliefs were created by devil worshippers who hated Jesus.

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Hi Wisdom,

I believe you missed the question I was asking.

Since you said above in Post 54:

Quote: Let me tell you what I am claiming. The oldest Greek bibles found so far are ‘the codex sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus.’ These two bibles are corrupted as well but for Christianity's sake we’re holding it as their standard.’

Okay, if the Codex Siniaticus is accurate enough to be called a ‘standard’ for Christianity, and is the same as the King James published 1200 years later (except for the choice of words of the translators) --- it actually shows the ‘accuracy’ of the verses of Revelation 1, does it not? --- Rather than any ‘changes’ over the 1200 years, --- because you haven't shown any, have you?

---Since you haven’t ventured to show any difference in the two, --- that would mean that the King James, and the New King James (which updates from the old English, to the present vernacular, published in 1980), are as accurate as the Codex Siniaticus, --- are they not?

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I don't have to show any changes because I don't speak the Greek.

"3455 words were 'deleted', 839 words were 'added', 1114 words were 'substituted', 2299 words were 'transposed', and 1265 words were 'modified', making a total of 8972 artificial adjustments to what the Church claims is the 'unadulterated word of God'."

Better than me showing you the changes is evidence from Christian bible scholars who did it already.

What you are claiming is historically inaccurate as I've read and seen documentaries of bible scholars admitting errors happened many times when copying as well

Many bible scholars I've seen say the bible is "98%" accurate but in any case don't realize that the 2% is significant as it means human errors have occurred.

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