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In the Name of God بسم الله

Christianity Is Created By Paul

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Paul created Christianity. Prophet Isa peace be upon him never said worship me, nor does it directly quote Jesus in the bible saying "worship me"
Paul never met Jesus. Paul claimed you can eat pork while all the Prophets did not. Paul stopped circumscion while Jesus himself was circumsiced.

Paul was the worker of the devil and I have no doubt is in eternal hell.

Prophet Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him and his family and all the other Prophets as well is the true faith of God.

Paul is follower of the devil and the Bible has been changed thousands of times which has been confirmed by bible scholars.

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In terms of virtues like charity and justice I don't believe that they should be played off against each other. There has to be a certain ordening to society which promotes justice and protects the pe

If Jesus was born by a Virgin or not is not important and make no difference to me as a Christian. Nor does trinity. No one understands the relations between God and Jesus anyway.

Dear friend   I have very little knowledge of either Biblical history or of Paul's part in it. I can understand some of the objections that non-Christians might have. But I have a feeling that our Chr

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Paul created Christianity. Prophet Isa peace be upon him never said worship me, nor does it directly quote Jesus in the bible saying "worship me"

Paul never met Jesus. Paul claimed you can eat pork while all the Prophets did not. Paul stopped circumscion while Jesus himself was circumsiced.

Paul was the worker of the devil and I have no doubt is in eternal hell.

Prophet Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him and his family and all the other Prophets as well is the true faith of God.

Paul is follower of the devil and the Bible has been changed thousands of times which has been confirmed by bible scholars.

And Mary Poppins was an evil witch who taught children how to fly.  

 

Finished your Harry Potter books yet?

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Ugh, guess I have to come to the rescue once again. Paul didn't create "Christianity." The term "Christian" was apparently a derogatory term of sorts, supposedly coined in the city of Antioch, by non-Christians to describe the professed followers of Jesus (pbuh) just before Paul joined the faith. Over time, particularly among Gentiles who were fascinated by the figure of "Jesus Christ," the members of this emerging religious movement adopted it for themselves to be differentiated from another religion which as simultaneously forming in the same time period "Judaism." Paul was a Jewish persecutor of Jesus followers. He would travel around, routing them out and putting them to death. The story, as it is told in the New Testament, that one day Paul had a vision of the risen Christ and from that moment on repented and set about preaching the Gospel, also latching onto the label of "Christian" and using it to his advantage.

 

 

Paul formulated the ideas of the bible, not the original gospels but the changed version

 

Paul is at best a commentator, though he rarely ever appeals to any scripture besides the Old Testament (The Hebrew Bible) though his references are more general than they specific citations as the canon for the Hebrew Bible was still in its early stages of formation at this time and different groups of Jews did not necessarily hold the same scriptures to be authoritative. Paul also did not "change the gospels," since the gospel narratives were likely written some time after Paul and probably, at least in Matthew's case, independent or opposed to his teachings. It is in fact Paul's letters which are perhaps the earliest Christian documents which we are able to verify as having been written in the mid first century CE. Paul never appeals to any particular scripture when he speaks on the gospel, rather his use of the word "gospel" is a theological reference to the whole of the message brought by Christ (pbuh) and not in a literary fashion to any given text (which remained the way Christians referred to 'the gospel' throughout most of the early Christian period). Paul thus does not appeal to the authority or text of a document, but rather to a personal divine inspiration of his own which appeals more to the "fact" of Jesus' death and resurrection than a text which relates these events. When it comes to formulating the idea of "The Gospel" as opposed to "The Law" he's operating on oral traditions as well as his own self-professed insight into what the meaning of the events of Christ's death on the cross was.

 

Contrary to popular belief, Biblical scholarship has found that it actually took quite awhile for Paul to take his place as one of the chief interpreters of the gospel. In Rome for instance, the line between emerging Judaism and emerging Christianity could be quite blurred at times. And early church fathers such as Justin Matyr rarely ever make any appeal or citation to the Pauline epistles but rather stick with careful citations of Jewish scriptures and the sayings of Jesus (pbuh). Although respect and reference to Paul can be found in some letters such as the 1 Clement, his place is not all that strong in 2nd century Christian writings. Really, the prominence of Paul in Christianity is perhaps at least partially owed to Marcion of Sinope (c.85-160 CE).

 

Marciao.jpg

 

Marcion came from a the region of Pontus in what is now modern day Turkey and according to the letters of Pliny the Younger, the governor of Pontus in 110-112 CE, around the time Marcion would have been a young man living there, describes the Christian religion as it existed in the region in the early 2nd century. Funny enough, the Christians of Pontus in Pliny and Marcion's day appear to lack any strong Jewish influence in their rituals or ties to Jewish institutions for that matter. When Marcion, who was a ship builder, eventually came to Rome, he would have probably found the heavier Jewish influence in the manifestations of Christian religion there strange and according to Tertullian, a church father in the early 3rd century, Marcion claimed "the gospel" he found in Rome had been corrupted. 

 

Marcion is best known for three things:

 

1.) His commentary work, The Anti-Theses.

 

 In this work, now completely lost to us aside from the quotations and references in the works of more orthodox theologians, Marcion puts the God of the Old Testament or Jewish scriptures next to the God spoken of by Jesus. The conclusion drawn in Marcion's book is that the God of the Jewish scriptures does indeed exist, but is in fact a different deity than the God who sent Jesus Christ (pbuh). Marcion believed that there were two gods: the god who created the world and gave Israel "The Law," and another god known as "The Stranger," who was the "Father" whom Christ spoke of and who had sent him to save mankind from the harsh judgement of this scrupulous and tyrannical deity of the Jews. He drew this conclusion by interpreting sayings attributed to Jesus which are found in the gospels we have today (the verses concerning the good tree vs the bad tree and the parable of the wine skins) as well, perhaps more importantly, the Pauline epistles which speak of the conflict between Law and Gospel. Marcion took this conflict literally perhaps more literally than Paul himself did. But nonetheless, Marcion represented an extreme brand of Pauline Christianity relatively unaffected by early Judaism (having been cut off from it in the places it manifested) or aggressively opposed to it. Although he was not the founder of Pauline Christianity, Marcion became one of the chief interpreters and theologians of Paul in the second century and can be credited as one of the main Christian thinkers responsible for propelling the significance of Paul to the Christian/Jesus movement. Marcion's ideas became extremely popular in some areas and was so successful at gaining converts to his ideas that Church Fathers such Tertullian, writing only 50 years after him, was compelled to write five whole volumes against Marcion and his followers and he wasn't the only one to dedicate considerable time and effort to debating Marcion's interpretation, though his work is one of the most important to have survived. But it wasn't just the Anti-Theses that was the problem with Marcion

 

2.) Marcion is the first Christian leader on record known to have formulated a canon of scripture for the Christian movement. In other words, Marcion assembled the first "Christian Bible." 

 

 

 During the second century, before Marcion, Christianity didn't have a universally recognized canon and the authority emerging written documents had was quite fluid. Sure, the letters of Paul were sometimes read in social gatherings in certain areas which actually possessed them, but no real differentiation was made during this time between a letter from Paul or a letter from a later church leader who the people of that church had come to respect. We see the literary testament to this not only in first hand accounts but also in the fact that some Biblical manuscripts belonging to Christians feature the epistles attributed to Clement in the New Testament alongside the other letters and the gospels or how the epistle attributed to Barnabas can be found in some later Christian Bibles. Even well after the Bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius' letter in the 4th century which was the first letter to contain a list of the canon scripture for the New Testament that we know today, we find examples of Christian Bibles that include more or less documents in their New Testament than what Athanasius listed. The Catholic Church didn't even have an official pronouncement on the Christian scriptural canon until the 16th century, the acceptance of scriptures before that having mostly been just a kind of general and informal consensus which we still see made room on occasion for some other scripture which was not eventually included in that later decree. In the 2nd century, there really was no single authoritative set of scripture and it appears that the oral tradition took some precedent to the literary tradition if not just because most Christians didn't know how to read or write. But the extent to which early church leaders who were literate relied on a set of written documents or relied on the oral tradition passed down to them varied, although for the most part occupied the same space. Christian leaders at the time would reject something in a literary text if they felt it went too much against their oral traditions. If I could compare this situation to something Muslims might understand, hadith books may have different levels of authority according to different scholars, correct? One scholar might cite the traditions of one collection of hadith he feels are authentic while proclaiming another set of hadith in the same collection less authentic than those according to some other tradition. Likewise, collections as a whole are ranked among various scholars based on their authenticity as a whole depending on their tradition and/or their reasoning. This appears to have been the case with Christians and their relationships to the emerging body of various Christian literature in the early second century. The extent to which individual churches or Christians of particular provinces appealed to a literary tradition as justification appears to be somewhat minimal compared to later generations and much more supplemental to their particular oral traditions concerning the life and sayings of Jesus and the theological implications of his teaching. And most churches probably had, at best, one letter attributed to an apostle or written by a church leader whom they had acquainted themselves with.

 

What Marcion did was rather extraordinary in that he attempted to limit the scope of interpretation by drawing up and thus making the fluid oral tradition relatively more subordinate to a single body of authoritative literature which held precedent over all other forms of Christian literature and from which all interpretations of the message of Jesus and the apostles must therefore be derived from and must appeal to. In opposition to the different collected bodies of Jewish religious literature, he assembled a Christian collection of scripture organized into two parts: The Evangelion (or 'The Gospel') and The Apostolikon ('The Apostle'). The Evangelion appears to have been a version of the Gospel of Luke, which later Church Fathers after Marcion's death accuse him of altering to suit his ideology, although none of Marcion's contemporaries such as Justin Martyr or Clement of Alexandria, who debated with his followers, are known to have accused Marcion of this action and never mention it as an offense on his part. As a matter of fact, many scholars who have made the attempt to study and/or reconstruct Marcion's lost Evangelion from the writings of church fathers and ancient Biblical manuscripts close to Marcion's time have found no evidence that Marcion edited the Gospel of Luke to fit his ideology at all and scholars as recent Jason D. BeDuhn in their reconstruction of the text have put forth the idea that Marcion's Evangelion may in fact be an earlier version of Luke, possibly our first witness to it, than the Gospel of Luke in the current canon, which may be more dependent on the Gospel of Matthew and part of another tradition of textual transmission emerging at the same time or shortly after Marcion's proclaimed the version in his possession to be authoritative.

 

The Apostolikon, the second portion of Marcion's bible, is a collection of ten of Paul's epistles, excluding the three pastoral epistles (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus)  and Hebrews which coincidentally are also the epistles whose authorship modern Biblical scholars cast the most doubt on. So Marcion may also be an early witness against the pastoral epistles' authenticity. It included: Galatians, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Romans, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, Ephesians (called 'Laodiceans' by Marcion), Colossians, Philemon, and Philippians. Again, the Apostolikon is probably one of our earliest witnesses to Paul's letters, which helps us to verify their first century composition. But it's important for another reason

 

3.) Marcion's Apostolikon increased the importance of Paul to Christian theological discussion.

 

 Paul's letters were Marcion's main justification for his heretical ideas and he in fact claimed that Paul was the brightest and most authoritative of the apostles. And as I stated above, Paul was not a central part of the Christian discussion it seems until after Marcion's time. Not only that, the current Christian canon for the New Testament where the gospel narratives form the beginning and are followed by the Pauline epistles almost seems modeled after Marcion's Christian bible, which he may have modeled after Jewish Bibles. Whether it was a result of Marcionite Christians converting away from their beliefs and bringing some of those traditions with them or Christian opponents of Marcion attempting to use the love for Paul and attention to the Luke Gospel among Marcionites against them, it seems that Marcion encouraged more and more discussion about Paul and due to being a wealthy ship builder with many connections to the port cities throughout the Roman Empire, may have been one of the main individuals responsible for spreading Paul's letters throughout the Christian world, thus creating more of this discussion and debate around Paul's ideas and perhaps allowing some of the textual tradition of the Marcionite Bible to enter into the textual tradition of the emerging orthodoxy (since some of the wording and phrasing considered to be particular to the versions of Luke used by Marcionite is found in the catholic/orthodox transmissions of Biblical texts). Marcion's radical acceptance of Paul as THE teacher of a Gospel, a Gospel superior to The Law and by that extension diametrically opposed to the Jewish God and religious scriptures, juxtaposed by the radical rejection of Paul's apostleship for his teaching concerning The Law having been completely abrogated by Christ, a position known to have been characteristic of more Jewish leaning Christian churches and sects, this all appears to have helped encourage Christian leaders of the emerging orthodoxy to accept a more middling position in regards to how to interpret Paul and in some cases to attribute epistles like Hebrews to Paul, perhaps to counter the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Marcionites.

 

Marcion is perhaps almost single-handedly responsible for providing the necessary boost in Paul's popularity which would eventually allow him to become the main authority on what it meant to be a "Christian" and he was the first one to propose an authoritative body of Christian literature which in turn caused a shift in how Christians claimed authority for their ideas, which previously had been from a mostly oral tradition with only some to no recourse to a written tradition, to a movement in which the debates on what constituted proper Christian belief became more and more centered as centuries passed around a literary tradition which traced itself back, whether truthfully or falsely, to the companions of Jesus and from which Christian belief could and/or should be derived.

 

EDIT: Another fun fact, although the term "New Testament" appears in theological contexts before Marcion's time, it doesn't appear to be used in reference to a body of literature in Christian discussion among Marcionite and non-Marcionite Christians until after Marcion's time, which has led some scholars to believe that Marcion may have also been the first to coin the term itself, particularly in reference to a body of scripture. Although, this remains unproven, it's a possibility Christians owe the division of their Bible into "Old Testament" followed by the "New Testament" to Marcion as well. Considering more Jewish Christian groups don't appear to have made such a differentiation, as far as we know at this point in time, when it came to discussing scripture, it may be more possible than some might think.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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Could you please tell us some of the names of the books.

 

I am sure some people would like to read up.  

 

A good book on the subject of Marcion and his influence on the development of Christianity is Jason D. BeDuhn's latest contribution to the field of Marcionite studies, "The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon," published in 2013, which is a new attempt to reconstruct Marcion's Bible from the sources available to us and an overview of what we can know from the polemical sources about Marcion's beliefs and what the reconstructed Marcionite New Testament reveals to us about the textual tradition of the New Testament. BeDuhn's also argues against the commonly held position that Marcion heavily edited the Gospel of Luke and Paul's letters to support his ideology by pointing out that the only sources we have for this accusation come not from Marcion's contemporaries, who in their own polemics mention nothing of his altering an accepted Gospel of Luke, but from Marcion's opponents decades after his death. He also points out that the reconstructed Marcionite text doesn't show any conclusive evidence of ideological redactions on Marcion's part and that in fact the evidence we have suggests that the current Gospel of Luke we possess likely went through a process of editing itself to include much of the material which Marcion was accused of by later generations of having edited out. BeDuhn after going over the different hypotheses which have been proposed over the years by Biblical scholars, argues himself, along with other scholars in the field, that the most likely hypothesis that the Gospel of Luke and Marcion's Evangelion were both based on the same common source but are each the product of different traditions of transmission of that common source: Luke a more Jewish influenced tradition and the Evangelion representative of a less Jewish brand of Christianity, both emerging simultaneously and following their own courses of textual transmission until Marcion would make the document and other similar copies of it which were in his possession the basis for his Evangelion.

 

Another decent overview of the diversity of early Christianity in addition to Marcion's own impact is Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman, a pretty easy read. I don't agree with everything Bart Ehrman interprets from the evidence, but he's a pretty good textual critic.

 

These two articles are also worth the read to learn more about Marcion and his relationship to the New Testament and the Church Fathers. I particularly recommend "Marcion's Love of Creation," by Andrew McGowan, published around 2001 in the Journal of Early Christian Studies. It basically deals with how Marcion's approach to the created world which he felt was constructed by a different deity than the God of Christ, the substance of which from which he formed it being evil. The author demonstrates that some of Marcion's proto-orthodox contemporaries such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons don't mention this aspect of his teaching in their polemics likes others such as Clement of Alexandia and Tertullian do and that in fact in the mid-second century such a view of matter being evil or that which is evil being of material essence rather than divine or spiritual appears to have been shared to some extent by non-Christian philosophers and even Christian thinkers who did believe the God who created the world and sent the Jewish prophets including Jesus Christ, Christian thinkers such as Justin Martyr himself. And so Marcion's negative approach to matter and his followers' commitment to asceticism resulting from this view would appear to have been part of a larger shared trend in the 2nd century Christian community, though Marcion himself took a more radical approach. Clement of Alexandria's criticism of this idea of matter being seen as evil among the Marcionite Christians also appears to be a part of his larger debates with Christian groups who reject marriage (Marcionites being one of a few).  But Marcion and his followers also appear to have specific dietary regulations. Marcionites are said to have rejected both meat and wine but had no issue partaking in other organic substances, which seems tied to their belief in nonviolence, showing that Marcionite rejection of matter discussed in later polemical sources such as Tertullian's Adversus Marcionem may be a tad overstated by later theologians due to the Marcionites' belief concerning matter's essence as well as their rejection of marriage. What Tertullian sees as hypocrisy in the Marcionite's selective approach to material things would not necessarily have been seen as such by Justin Martyr whose approach to matter was similar to Marcion's although he did not share Marcion's cosmology. The Marcionites' having rituals pertaining to meals and religious practice and observing baptism was likely seen by them as the intrusion of a new force into the world of the Creator or God of the Old Testament, the breach in the barriers of the Creator by the higher kingdom of the Heavenly Father and the realm of his own independent creation which may have also been tied to contemporary political events and the reaction to the harsh and decadent order of the Roman Imperial government, where brutality was the norm and sexual decadence and drunkenness were common sights among urban elites. 

 

http://www.academia.edu/905877/Marcions_Love_of_Creation

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/3141404

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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Paul was a jew who entered Christianity and rewrote alot of the bible, same thing yazeed try'd to do, same thing that happend to all 124000 Super Holy Teachers..

 

Buddah never said worship me...

 

Ram Chunder said Only 1God...

 

The devil leaves footprints ....

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Hi Saintly,

Thank you so much for this extended study on Marcionism. --- I read all of your posts and they are much the same as the small amount that I have read. --- There are a few things that may be clarified from the Zondervan Bible Dictionary which I have. --- That Marcion had influence in promoting his version of the Gospel of Luke, and his promotion of Paul’s letters to the Gentiles seemed to have been his main focus. --- Luke was a Greek, and therefore a Gentile. He was a Greek Historian as well as a medical doctor, and the only Gentile writer in the NT. He also wrote the Book of Acts, which records the activities of Paul both before and after Luke became a fellow Missionary with him, and Luke accompanied him to Rome.

(Just wanted to let you know that your extended study is appreciated.)

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Hi Saintly,

Thank you so much for this extended study on Marcionism. --- I read all of your posts and they are much the same as the small amount that I have read. --- There are a few things that may be clarified from the Zondervan Bible Dictionary which I have. --- That Marcion had influence in promoting his version of the Gospel of Luke, and his promotion of Paul’s letters to the Gentiles seemed to have been his main focus. --- Luke was a Greek, and therefore a Gentile. He was a Greek Historian as well as a medical doctor, and the only Gentile writer in the NT. He also wrote the Book of Acts, which records the activities of Paul both before and after Luke became a fellow Missionary with him, and Luke accompanied him to Rome.

(Just wanted to let you know that your extended study is appreciated.)

The bible has been change thousands of times. This is indisputable and is not the inspired Word of God. This has been confirmed by Christian scholars who have confirmed through thousands of manuscripts that differ in the thousands every one is different

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The bible has been change thousands of times. This is indisputable and is not the inspired Word of God. This has been confirmed by Christian scholars who have confirmed through thousands of manuscripts that differ in the thousands every one is different

If there's "thousands" you might be able to name a few?

 

While you're at it, show me where Paul said "Eat a pig today".

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Wasn't it Peter's dream that is used as justification for eating all animals, not Paul's letters?

Paul's writings do form a major part of Christianity as it is practiced today. I'm just unsure how much of the work attributed to him is really his.

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Wasn't it Peter's dream that is used as justification for eating all animals, not Paul's letters?

Paul's writings do form a major part of Christianity as it is practiced today. I'm just unsure how much of the work attributed to him is really his.

Actually it was James who outlined the laws for gentiles. Paul never said anything about it in his letters.

 

Also, way back in the day(Deuteronomy) God told the Jews they couldn't eat anything unclean, (which includes the back half of a cow). Interestingly enough God allowed them to give these unclean parts to "The strangers within the gates" or sell them to "the foreigners outside the gates" This is confirmed in the Quran when it mentions that Jesus came to change some of the laws for the Jews because many of their restrictions came from their disobedience, not so much a health thing.

 

Although Peter's dream has often been used as justification, the real message to Peter was to accept people who weren't Jews, (gentiles were just as unclean). 

Call it God's first stab at eradicating racism.

 

 

I'm gonna miss your humour, Ibn Placid. 

Don't go anywhere ;)

Just my way of saying...If you feel the need to hate Christianity fine, but don't be using ignorance as a reason. y'know.

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Thanks, SoP. As I understand it, there was debate in the early Church whether non-Jewish converts had to adopt Jewish practices. Modern Christianity does not, but I imagine many early would-be converts were frightened off by the prospect of circumcision and dietary restrictions.

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No doubt that was part of the debate. If I didn't get it done at 8 days old I'm not sure how I'd warm up to the idea now.

Add to that the idea of changing your eating habits. It wasn't just a "stay away from the unclean" but it was also the preparation, the manners in which it was done, can eat this, but not with that, etc. Regardless of how much a gentile tries to be a Jew, you just can't change your nationality. How does one become aboriginal? How do you know this wasn't a ploy by Jewish Marketers?

 

Jesus was more concerned what came out of the mouth than what went in it.

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Another decent overview of the diversity of early Christianity in addition to Marcion's own impact is Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman, a pretty easy read.

 

I haven't read 'Lost Christianities'.

 

But I have got his 'Misquoting Jesus' and 'Jesus Interrupted'. I haven't completed my reading yet. But what I have read so far, he casts a very dark shadow on the credibility of some of the scriptures.

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Here's what I know about Bart.

 

Topic 1: The Crucifixion of Jesus

The vast majority of Muslims reject the Crucifixion of Christ because their Quran rejects this historical event. In the Quran we read:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (Quran 4:157, Pickthall)

It is quite clear that this religion teaches its followers that Jesus’ crucifixion was just an act of deception on the part of Allah. The Quran teaches that Allah deceived everyone to think Jesus was crucified but that it didn’t actually happen historically speaking. This claim is very problematic and it flies in the face of 1st and 2nd century historical data. For this reason the supposed hero of Islam, Bart Ehrman rejects Islam’s position that Jesus wasn’t crucified and he has openly stated that he believes Jesus was crucified according to the available data. In his work ‘The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings,’ he states:

In any event, Tacitus's report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate.2

So it seems that the hero for Islam agrees with the Christians about Jesus being crucified.

 

What I'm not sure of is whether he actually became an Agnostic because he couldn't handle the pain and suffering part of the world.

 

Note what he says about Paul.

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Hi Saintly,

Thank you so much for this extended study on Marcionism. --- I read all of your posts and they are much the same as the small amount that I have read. --- There are a few things that may be clarified from the Zondervan Bible Dictionary which I have. --- That Marcion had influence in promoting his version of the Gospel of Luke, and his promotion of Paul’s letters to the Gentiles seemed to have been his main focus. --- Luke was a Greek, and therefore a Gentile. He was a Greek Historian as well as a medical doctor, and the only Gentile writer in the NT. He also wrote the Book of Acts, which records the activities of Paul both before and after Luke became a fellow Missionary with him, and Luke accompanied him to Rome.

(Just wanted to let you know that your extended study is appreciated.)

 

The thing is that Marcion did not call his version of the Gospel of Luke the "Gospel according to Luke," rather he just called it "The Gospel." This may have been, as Jason BeDuhn puts it, a kind of conscious rebellion against the personalization of gospel transmission which was occurring at that time. Marcion could be seen as kind of a traditionalist/textual fundamentalist in a way, someone who felt "No, there's no gospel according to Matthew or gospel according to Luke, there's only one Gospel of Jesus Christ and it is contained in this document and this document takes precedent over your oral traditions and philosophical speculations." It is interesting though that all our references to the Gospel of Luke having been written by Luke, a companion of Paul, appear to come from AFTER Marcion's time. Not only that, Marcion didn't include the Book of Acts in his canon (I believe our earliest manuscripts we've discovered so far only go as far back as the early third or late second century, after Marcion). BeDuhn in the book I mentioned puts forth the idea by some that Acts may contain some anti-Marcionite overtones, having possibly been written at least partially as a response to radical Pauline Christianity after Paul's and possibly Luke's time, maybe even in tacit reaction to Marcion himself. And it seems the Book of Acts acquires the ascription to the Pauline missionary, Luke, roughly around the same time I mentioned that the Gospel in his name acquires the same supposed authorship. 

 

However, this doesn't mean the Gospel in question wasn't written in some form originally by Luke. It would in fact make sense that Marcion would have chosen a version of a text supposedly written by a companion of Paul for his new Christian canon, being the big fan of Paul that he was. But if we say that the tradition that the text which forms the basis of Marcion's Evangelion had been written by Luke himself, if we say this tradition already emerged by Marcion's time and that it was a motivating factor in his choosing the document that he did, it casts some serious questions on the Book of Acts, I think. Marcion's career in the shipping industry was the main reason for his success in spreading his canon and gaining converts. In fact, one might say that the sense of organization that emerges in Christianity, which lays the foundation for the structure and hierarchy of the Catholic and Orthodox churches today may be traced back to Marcion, who sought to centralize the Christian message around a single, delimited collection of authoritative literature and thus limit the range of interpretation and the authority of different interpreters.  It's after Marcion's time that serious discussion emerges among the proto-orthodox Christians as to which scriptures are authoritative in addition to discussion on how to make other churches conform to that canon and those teachings which are subsequently derived from it.

 

Back to Acts, if it existed during the time of Marcion, he may have rejected it due to its seemingly more pro-Jewish/anti-Pauline ideas, but then the notion that Acts even existed during Marcion's time at this point is pure speculation until we have more conclusive evidence. Doesn't mean it didn't exist at that time, but we have no evidence to suggest that Marcion knew about Acts in order to have rejected it. It could have eluded him, but that seems hard to believe in face of the fact that Marcion appears well traveled enough to have gathered all of Paul's letters which he felt to be authentic and it would be even more odd that he wouldn't have been able to find it in Rome if it did exist. It may have also been that Acts hadn't yet acquired the Lukan authorship or it hadn't yet sunk into the minds of Christian communities that Luke may be its author and thus it was of less concern to Marcion and his contemporaries and thus easier for him to reject. The Book of Acts faces the same issue as the pastoral epistles and Hebrews in that the question of why Marcion rejected them appears to be closely tied with the question of their authenticity. In the last hundred years or so, modern Biblical scholarship has cast doubts on the authenticity of 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Hebrews and Acts and it seems that Marcion's canon includes all those Pauline epistles which modern scholarship is most certain were written by Paul himself and excludes those Pauline epistles which are most doubted as well as Acts. So with the question of why Marcion didn't include Acts also comes the question of whether Acts was even available during his time and whether or not, if it did, it already possessed the Lukan authorship. None of Marcion's contemporaries appear to argue that Marcion consciously edited the texts he used for the Evangelion and Apostolikon to suit his ideology nor do they chastise him for consciously leaving out any of the various books of the Acts of the Apostles. His contemporaries are much more concerned with some of the implications of his beliefs and his dualism. So either Marcion knew of Acts and rejected it on the basis of its content or didn't know about it and so didn't include it, which implies a late authorship for Acts itself. At this point, again, it's kind of just speculation. And although I don't think it's any coincidence that Marcion chose for his Evangelion a text which in writings of later church fathers after Marcion and in later biblical manuscripts is attributed to one of Paul's companions, until new evidence surfaces, one could plausibly argue based on what we do have that Marcion may have also been, in fact, one of the first to actually attribute the third synoptic gospel to Luke (although we have no evidence that Marcion ascribed it to him) or Marcion may have helped popularize the claim, namely among Gentile Christians who later formed the bulk of the proto-orthodoxy. Nonetheless, to discuss the formation and authenticity of the New Testament without recourse to the Marcionite heresy and Marcion's contributions, whatever your religious affiliation, would be anachronistic

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Here's what I know about Bart.

 

What I'm not sure of is whether he actually became an Agnostic because he couldn't handle the pain and suffering part of the world.

 

Note what he says about Paul.

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Hi Wisdom,

Quote from Post 16:

The bible has been change thousands of times. This is indisputable and is not the inspired Word of God. This has been confirmed by Christian scholars who have confirmed through thousands of manuscripts that differ in the thousands every one is different

Response: --- Although I wonder if ‘wisdom’ goes very well with exaggeration. --- Anyone who talks in terms of thousands, without giving any concrete figures is questionable.

I would like to ask a few questions:

** Do you believe that God spoke to Moses through a burning bush and said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Exodus 3:6?

** Do you believe that the angel Gabriel was seen in a vision by Muhammad and spoke to him, and then began giving him revelations?

** Do you believe that Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, and said to him, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.” Acts 9:5.

And do you believe the Quran where it says that Gabriel revealed this to Muhammad in Surah 3:

2 God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty

7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book. --- And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

--- (This Book includes the Torah and the Gospel from verse 3.)

Notice 4 says, “Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty.”

--- (So, what were the Signs of God?)

We find this as we go on is Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

--- (And this speaks of Jesus as the 'Sign' through His healing and deliverance ministry, as well as making some changes in the Law.)

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a ‘Sign’ for you if ye did believe;”

--- (Notice, ‘Sign,’ ‘Sign.’)

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

--- (Notice, “change the Law to the New Covenant” as well as a ‘Sign,’ and Jesus said, “Obey Me,” which has the same meaning as in the Gospel where He said, “Follow Me.’ --- because to ‘follow Jesus’ was to obey Him.)

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

--- (We are to worship God alone, but the message for Christians is to, “Follow Jesus.” --- This was written about 625 AD, so the angel Gabriel confirms everything in the Scriptures as true to that date, does he not? --- Had there been changes, would Gabriel not have known about them? --- And it continues with these verses):

55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:

--- (And this is followed by the same warning as in verse 4):

56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

You see, As a Christian, I don’t know what to do but ‘follow Jesus,’ to be on the Way that is straight. --- Or by your negative approach, are you suggesting there is a straighter way?

Placid

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'The wording of one Bible is 99% different from the wording of the other Bible'

('The Revision Revised', Dean John William Burgon, 1881)

In the Gospels of the Codex Vaticanus, Dean Burgon was stunned to discover that 2877 words had been 'deleted' and 536 words 'added'. He also noted that 935 words were 'substituted' (changed), and 2098 words were 'transposed', meaning that an alternative name or word was written in the place of an original name or word. He added that 1132 words in the Codex Vaticanus had been 'modified', and his comments left biblical researchers with great uncertainty as to what oldest Bibles once really said. Thus, from Dean Burgon's two decades of work, we find a total of 7578 perversions in the Codex Vaticanus, and his equivalent figures for the Codex Sinaiticus reveal even greater differences from the ancient original. For example, he recognised that in the Codex Sinaiticus, 3455 words were 'deleted', 839 words were 'added', 1114 words were 'substituted', 2299 words were 'transposed', and 1265 words were 'modified', making a total of 8972 artificial adjustments to what the Church claims is the 'unadulterated word of God'.

The codex sinaiticus and Vaticanus are the oldest Greek bibles known by the way so far

Hi Wisdom,

Quote from Post 16:

The bible has been change thousands of times. This is indisputable and is not the inspired Word of God. This has been confirmed by Christian scholars who have confirmed through thousands of manuscripts that differ in the thousands every one is different

Response: --- Although I wonder if ‘wisdom’ goes very well with exaggeration. --- Anyone who talks in terms of thousands, without giving any concrete figures is questionable.

I would like to ask a few questions:

** Do you believe that God spoke to Moses through a burning bush and said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Exodus 3:6?

** Do you believe that the angel Gabriel was seen in a vision by Muhammad and spoke to him, and then began giving him revelations?

** Do you believe that Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, and said to him, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.” Acts 9:5.

And do you believe the Quran where it says that Gabriel revealed this to Muhammad in Surah 3:

2 God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.

3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)

4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty

7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book. --- And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

--- (This Book includes the Torah and the Gospel from verse 3.)

Notice 4 says, “Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty.”

--- (So, what were the Signs of God?)

We find this as we go on is Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

--- (And this speaks of Jesus as the 'Sign' through His healing and deliverance ministry, as well as making some changes in the Law.)

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a ‘Sign’ for you if ye did believe;”

--- (Notice, ‘Sign,’ ‘Sign.’)

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

--- (Notice, “change the Law to the New Covenant” as well as a ‘Sign,’ and Jesus said, “Obey Me,” which has the same meaning as in the Gospel where He said, “Follow Me.’ --- because to ‘follow Jesus’ was to obey Him.)

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

--- (We are to worship God alone, but the message for Christians is to, “Follow Jesus.” --- This was written about 625 AD, so the angel Gabriel confirms everything in the Scriptures as true to that date, does he not? --- Had there been changes, would Gabriel not have known about them? --- And it continues with these verses):

55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:

--- (And this is followed by the same warning as in verse 4):

56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

You see, As a Christian, I don’t know what to do but ‘follow Jesus,’ to be on the Way that is straight. --- Or by your negative approach, are you suggesting there is a straighter way?

Placid

The straight way is to accept him as a Messenger of God just like Abraham PBUH and Moses PBUH and others

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I just wanted to say a few things about Bart Ehrman. Ehrman is a respected Biblical scholar when it comes to study of ancient manuscripts and the history of Early Christianity. What is he isn't is a theologian or a philosopher or a believer. In his own words, he's an unrepentant "materialist" and as such he approaches the evidence from that angle. In many cases, Ehrman merely conveys the general consensus of Biblical scholars, both Christian and non-Christian alike. As he puts things, many things which he writes about in his books concerning the issue of the authorship of the New Testament are things he learned while in seminary to become a pastor and are taught not just by secular historians, but are also accepted by the Catholic Church and other Christian organizations. Only Christians whose belief depends on Biblical inerrancy have a serious issue with most of what he says in some of his work. I've noticed some Christians who dislike Muslims' respect for Ehrman's scholarship try to point out his being an atheist or as Ehrman describes himself "an agnostic atheist," as though it necessarily makes the points raised by Muslim critics based on Ehrman's work  null and void, but this itself is a bit of a fallacy and is more of just an attempt to dodge having to answer questions one doesn't have the answer to.

 

In regards to the crucifixion, Ehrman feels that the Crucifixion is perhaps one of the best events which establish the historicity of Jesus, regardless of what we can know about the exact events of his life prior to that. I don't think Muslims would have an issue with this since this is a common position of many historians and since Muslims themselves do in fact believe a crucifixion happened, although they disagree on the exact events of that crucifixion. It is natural many secular historians don't consider the Muslim account of the crucifixion since it is a much more miraculous interpretation of the event and thus more difficult to believe, let alone prove by the standards of more secular Biblical scholarship.

Thanks Saintly,

I don't think a lot of Bart, not because of his research as much as his "Agnosic atheist" attitude. Materialistic, they may say but I don't know many that would blog $60.G a year into charities.

 

Bart even defends Apostle Paul as an early reliable source of information for the life of Jesus. He believes the Apostle Paul knew the original disciples of Jesus and became one of them. Just another reason I shake my head at what he's learned, and what I hear about him.

 

Dean Burgon, on the other hand can only be what history says he said. Just wonder how many words were in the Epistle of Barnabus, that was later removed from the codex Sinaiticus. If you get the right copy/paste...source, it calls the missing words "perversions", but most Muslims wouldn't like the Epistle anyway so why break it into words?

 

Much like Bart, there's what he believed, what he said, and what others say he said.

Starting with the oldest of the two mentioned. (not the two oldest) it would seem that this tremendously perverse codex Vaticanus was what King James translated. You would think someone so against the oldest text kept in the Vatican wouldn't endorse anything translated from it, yet there is a Dean Burgon society that insists Dean approved of the King James version, also the "Revised English version" written during his lifetime. Considering it's now in English it must be 100% perverted because there's no Greek or Hebrew in them. Not even the 1% Lion gives it credit for. Like I said, it matters more who you hear it from.

 

Wow a video. It's titled "Worlds oldest Bible confirms Quran Bible is corrupted, altered"

 

I know we've been over it before, but wonder if our new guy knows of where the Quran says the Bible is corrupt. There must be a copy/paste somewhere.

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Quran 5:41

O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Quran 5:13

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

Quran 2:79

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

We already know what books were given to whom so we know what scriptures He is referring to

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Quran 5:41

O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

 

Oh Messenger of Allah, let THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK not grieve you, oh, doesn't say that. Says those who disbelieve. Where does it say this only pertains to Christians and Jews? Know any Arabs fit the bill? I do.

Quran 5:13

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

To say people distorted their words so they could be liars does not maen they ran to the closest bible and changed things around. In the overall Surah it is warning you what not to be.

 

Quran 2:79

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Again, who's scripture? What scripture? Woe to anyone writes a book, thinks of it as scripture, sells it as being God. At what point was the Quran talking about the pre-existing scripture while in present tense? I suggest you don't write a book about it, this woe still applies.

We already know what books were given to whom so we know what scriptures He is referring to

 

Who's we? I already know what books you've been told...I know you've been taught "Anything but what the Christians say" in every hadith and anti Christian site, but you can't be talking about the book the Quran confirms time and time again.

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Paul created Christianity. Prophet Isa peace be upon him never said worship me, nor does it directly quote Jesus in the bible saying "worship me"

Paul never met Jesus. Paul claimed you can eat pork while all the Prophets did not. Paul stopped circumscion while Jesus himself was circumsiced.

Paul was the worker of the devil and I have no doubt is in eternal hell.

Prophet Muhammad Peace and blessings be upon him and his family and all the other Prophets as well is the true faith of God.

Paul is follower of the devil and the Bible has been changed thousands of times which has been confirmed by bible scholars.

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To say Paul created Christianity is not correct. Better to say he has had great influence on Chritian theology. Paul wrote his letters only 20 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. He personally knew the people og the first christian generation, inclusive some of the 12 apostles. We dont know if he ever met with Jesus, but Jesus revealed himself to Paul. Paul was but a man, certain that Jesus would return in the first century. As this turned out to be wrong we know for certain that his letters should be read as written by a missionary of flesh and blood. Creater of the Christian religion? Paul never read the Gospels and knew not that his letters were to be included in the Bible. The ones that decided the Biblical canon and religious leaders in the 2000 years after had a great influence too. (So had also their equals in Islam.)

Does salvation depend on pork and a small peace of flesh on our genitals? Uncircimcised christians have now eaten pork for 2000 years with no warning from Heaven. Circumcision is not originally a Jewish tradition, it is known from religions long before Abraham. Jews still practise this, but there are other laws in the Torah they have abandoned to be able to live in a modern society. 

 

From the start christians have interpreted the NT in many different ways, but but without Jesus there would be no christianity. Very much like Muhammed and Islam.

 

 

for sure St Paul was an Apostle and imbued with the Holy Spirit. If he had an influence on the direction of Christianity that's fine by me, since the Holy Spirit cannot err.

Plus like you stated about Circumcision and Mosaic Food, it can be debated also that it was not only St Paul but other Apostles who rejected those customs/traditions.

St Peter himself stood up and also said 'we' are not to circumcise anymore in ACTS 15.

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Hi Wisdom,

Quote from Post 28:

The straight way is to accept him (Jesus) as a Messenger of God just like Abraham PBUH and Moses PBUH and others.

Response: --- So in accepting Jesus as the Messenger, Savior, and Messiah of the New Covenant who had the Holy Spirit, and imparted it to the Apostles who followed Him, and who believe in Abraham, Moses and other messengers of God, --- they are on the straight way?

--- Then why is it important for you to try to destroy the Scriptures that we follow with statements that are untrue?

When you mention the changes of thousands of words, you have to be talking about changing from one language to another, because I have checked the Codex Siniaticus with the King James and they are practically word for word the same, because they were both translated to English from ancient Greek Manuscripts.

--- Here is an example of how close they are from the two periods of writing:

Quote: --- The beginning of the ‘Book of Revelation’ from the Codex Siniaticus from about 400 AD, which is called the “Oldest Bible in the world.”.

1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things that must shortly take place, and having sent by his angel he made it known to his servant John,

2 who became a witness to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, whatever things he saw.

3 Blessed is he that reads and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and that keep the things that are written in it; for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: grace to you and peace from him who is, and who was, and who comes, and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,

5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and that washed us from our sins in his blood,

6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and strength through the ages: amen.

7 Behold, he comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yes, amen.

8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who comes, the Almighty.

9 I John, your brother and companion in the affliction and kingdom and patience in Jesus, was in the island that is called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

10 I was in-spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a voice great as that of a trumpet,

11 saying: What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven churches, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that talked with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks,

13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like the Son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded about the breasts with a golden girdle;

14 but his head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire,

15 and his feet were like burnished brass, as if they burned in a furnace, and his voice as the sound of many waters;

16 and he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth went forth a sword two-edged, sharp, and his face as the sun when it shines in its strength.

17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not: I am the First and the Last,

18 and that lives, and I was dead, and behold, I am living from age to age, and have the keys of death and of hades.

19 Write therefore the things that thou sawest, and the things that are, and those that shall be after these,

20 the mystery of the seven stars that thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars and angels of the seven churches, and the seven candlesticks are seven churches.

--- The King James Version from 1611.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

--- (More to follow)

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--- (To add a few more)

Thank you Shiachat Monitors for allowing me to post these different versions, --- but I feel that for ‘studious ones,’ it may answer many questions.

The ARAMAIC Bible in Plain English, --- The Revelation chapter 1

1The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan, 2Who witnessed the word of God and the testimony of Yeshua The Messiah - everything whatever he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things that are written in it, for the time is near.

4Yohannan to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from The One Who is, and was, and is coming, and from The Seven Spirits which are before his throne, 5And from Yeshua The Messiah, the Trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead and The Ruler of the Kings of The Earth- him who loves us and has loosed us from our sins by his blood. 6And he has made us The Priestly Kingdom to God and his Father; to him be glory and Empire to the eternity of eternities. Amen. 7Behold, he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him, and all the families of The Earth shall mourn for him; yes and amen!

8I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God, he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.

9I Yohannan am your brother and companion in suffering and in the patience which is in Yeshua. I was in the island that is called Patmos, because of the word of God and because of the testimony of Yeshua The Messiah. 10And I was in The Spirit on the first day of the week, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11Which said, “Those things which you have seen, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesaus, to Zmurna, to Pergamaus, to Thawatyra, to Sardis, to Philadelphia and to Laidiqia.

12And I turned to know that voice which spoke with me, and when I turned around, I saw seven menorahs of gold; 13And in the midst of the menorahs as the likeness of a man, and he wore an ephod and he was girded around his chest with a golden wrap. 14And his head and his hair were white as wool and like snow, and his eyes were like flames of fire. 15And his feet were in the form of the brass of Lebanon which is heated in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars, and a sharp lance proceeded from his mouth, and I saw him like the Sun appearing in its strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man, and he laid his right hand upon me saying, “Do not be afraid, for I am The First and The Last; 18I am he who lived and died, and behold, I am alive to the eternity of eternities, amen, and I have the key of Death and of Sheol. 19Write, therefore, whatever you have seen and those things that are, and that are going to come to pass after these things. 20The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven menorahs: the seven stars are the Messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven menorahs of gold which you saw are the seven assemblies.

The DOUAY - RHEIMS Version, --- The NT from 1582, and with the OT in 1609 – 10.

The Latin Vulgate, translated from Greek and Hebrew to Latin by the Scholar Jerome about 400 AD, was used in the Churches from 400 to 1600, when it was translated to English. --- So it was intact in Latin all through the time of Muhammad in the 600’s.

--- Revelation 1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,

2 Who hath given testimony to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, what things soever he hath seen.

3 Blessed is he, that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy; and keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne,

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father, to him be glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, your brother and your partner in tribulation, and in the kingdom, and patience in Christ Jesus, was in the island, which is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus.

10 I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks:

13 And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 And his head and his hairs were white, as white wool, and as snow, and his eyes were as a flame of fire,

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace. And his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two edged sword: and his face was as the sun shineth in his power.

17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last,

18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

19 Write therefore the things which thou hast seen, and which are, and which must be done hereafter.

20 The mystery of the seven stars, which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches. And the seven candlesticks are the seven churches.

And now compare these all to the New King James Version from 1980.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered from 1950 and they contain Scrolls or fragments of every OT Book except Esther.

The two Scrolls of Isaiah are among those in good condition. --- They believe that these were placed in the caves of Kumran, --- some time before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD --- (I believe they can be found online under ‘Dead Sea Scrolls of Isaiah.’)

In the New King James Study Bible there is a Supplement in the back on the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ and new ‘Archaeological Discoveries.’

Nobody is trying to fool anyone, --- we fool ourselves by arguing with God and His word.

NEW KING JAMES --- Revelation 1:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Greeting the Seven Churches

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Vision of the Son of Man

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Placid

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