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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Someone recently mentioned how ahl sunnah wal jammah denied the caliphate of imam (ra).  Of course this is not true, I thought about writing a long response detailing what ahl sunnah beliefs with regards to imam Ali (ra) and the rest of ahl bayt (as). But realized I would have to go into what we believed and did not believe.  Debates etc etc.  I just didn't want to go through all that, maybe another time and I've been pretty busy so instead I'm going to post some informative videos which details the ahl sunnah position on some important personalities in Islamic history.  I'm starting off with sayyiduna Ali (ra).  The lecture is not long and is very good.  I believe those who take the time will benefit from it.

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The denial was the first caliph and the stories may newfound in classic history books written by what trend of thought would become Sunni.

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The denial was the first caliph and the stories may newfound in classic history books written by what trend of thought would become Sunni.

The position of ahl sunnah is that sayyiduna abu bakr (ra) is the first caliph.  with sayyiduna ali (ra) being the fourth.

 

(salam)

"Someone recently mentioned how ahl sunnah wal jammah denied the caliphate of imam (as) "

Really? That's weird. I think everyone knows Sunnis believe in 4 caliphs.

The traditional position of ahl sunnah is that the khulafa rashidun are five in number, with sayyiduna hasan bin ali (ra) being the fifth. this will be a good place to post something on the ahl sunnah position on sayyiduna hasan bin ali (ra):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9lnm9wXIAQ#t=1

 

 

the first link is part 1/3 about imam hasan bin ali (ra)

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Someone recently mentioned how ahl sunnah wal jammah denied the caliphate of imam (ra).  Of course this is not true,

 

Yes, of course it is not true.

 

We do not deny your belief in the first five caliphs.

 

The difference in our beliefs is that the first three caliphs  were not rightful caliphs.

 

That is all.

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The position of ahl sunnah is that sayyiduna abu bakr (ra) is the first caliph. with sayyiduna ali (ra) being the fourth.

The traditional position of ahl sunnah is that the khulafa rashidun are five in number, with sayyiduna hasan bin ali (ra) being the fifth. this will be a good place to post something on the ahl sunnah position on sayyiduna hasan bin ali (ra):

the first link is part 1/3 about imam hasan bin ali (ra)

a teacher I've watched classes from is Sunni he says imam Ali (AS) caliphate was usurped. He is an academic history teacher. Anyways usually Shia ulema prove this from historical reports by Sunni historians Edited by Rohani

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No traditional scholar from ahl sunnah will ever say the caliphate was usurped from sayyiduna ali (ra).  Our believe is that the three who came before him (ra) were deserving and qualified for that position.  If this teacher is saying that, that is fine.  He is entitled to his opinion but that by no means represents the position of ahl sunnah wal jammah.  No one from ahl sunnah doubts/denies the qualities of sayyiduna ali (ra), he is our imam and leader and we consider ourselves his true followers.  We are not extreme in our love for him nor do we dislike him.  We are also lovers of sayyiduna abu bakr (ra), Umar (ra), Uthman (ra) and all the sahaba (ra).  We do not curse nor dislike any of them.

 

 

 

 

 

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O my Master, send your salutations and blessings forever
Upon Your Beloved, the best of the whole of creation

Muhammad is the master of the two worlds

and of Man and the jinn
Leader also of the Arabs, non-Arabs and their kin

Beloved by Allah is he upon whose pleading we depend

From terrors of the Day of Judgement,which on us descend

Then we ask You to be pleased with Abu Bakr, ‘Umar,

‘Ali and ‘Uthman the generous one

O my Lord! with the Elect One make us attain our goals

And forgive us for what has passed,
O Most Munificent One!

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(salam)

May Allah be pleased with the first three? Even after what they did? How upsetting. :(

P.S. bro? Something wrong with your spacebar? :blink:

Walaykum-salaam

 

It was a quick copy and paste job, I wasn't really go for aesthetics.  Next time I'll make sure to beautify my posts just for you lol.

 

Yes, may Allah (azwj) be pleased with all of them (ra).  I wound recommend you read the seerah of the sahaba (ra), especially the rightly guided caliphates.  I know you are shia but you should also read the sunni perspective, at the very least it will give you a nuance understanding of the different views.  

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Walaykum-salaam

It was a quick copy and paste job, I wasn't really go for aesthetics. Next time I'll make sure to beautify my posts just for you lol.

Yes, may Allah (azwj) be pleased with all of them (ra). I wound recommend you read the seerah of the sahaba (ra), especially the rightly guided caliphates. I know you are shia but you should also read the sunni perspective, at the very least it will give you a nuance understanding of the different views.

Why are the first 4 rightly guided and the 5th not so? Rather he be imam hassan (as) or muywaiya... What about yazid (la)? What about the other muywaiya caliphs? What about the Abbasids? What about the muwayia tribe that ran off to Spain and established a caliphate system over that muslim populas?

Moreover, who decided whom was rightly guided? What is the criteria for one to be rightly guided via quran?

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(Salam)

Dear brother, I was a Hanafi Sunni before. :)

After finding defects and contradiction in Sunni beliefs, I converted. ShukarAllah wa Alhamdulillah.

Shia beliefs are logical [Though I don't completely agree with the Shias, But their beliefs are at least a thousand times better than Sunnis and make sense + IMO every person with some sense in his mind can see that (Pardon me)]

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(salam)

Dear brother, I was a Hanafi Sunni before. :)

After finding defects and contradiction in Sunni beliefs, I converted. ShukarAllah wa Alhamdulillah.

Shia beliefs are logical [Though I don't completely agree with the Shias, But their beliefs are at least a thousand times better than Sunnis and make sense + IMO every person with some sense in his mind can see that (Pardon me)]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're the same brother who tried to argue with me when I explained to another brother that shia belief their Imams are superior to the prophets(as).  If I remember correctly you said I was wrong, you only changed your mind after a group of shia corrected you and said that they indeed do believe their Imams are superior to the prophets.  The point being, shia belief that the Imams are superior to the prophets is elementary and yet you didn't know that, with all due respect you have more research to do.  If you are happy with being shia and are convinced of it, then great.  There is no compulsion in this religion, to you be your way and to me mine.  Just so you know, I was interested in shiaism at one point and did a lot of research into it.  It just didn't make any sense to me, the more I learn about shiaism the more I'm certain about the aqeedah of ahl sunnah wal jammah.  Shia have some valid historical/political grievances but theologically are wrong.  Many people are often attracted by the historical/political position of the shia, and there is a case to be make from their position but shia aqeedah is all wrong.  You said "every person with some sense in his mind can see that" shia are a thousand times better than sunnis.  Brother, historically shia couldn't even agree among themselves who was the mahdi. The zaydi shia who at one point were the main shia school don't agree with you on the infallibility of the imams, the hidden imam, muta etc. Look there were many shia sects and you wouldn't even believe what these sects held as the truth.  Some of those beliefs are still held my some shia today and on this very site.  I have no interest in argumentation so I remain silent.  You need to read more about shia beliefs and history.  I'm not trying to convert you or anyone for that matter, guidance is from Allah (azwj) and may HE (swt) guide us all to the truth.  I love reading and doing research into all sects,  I'll continue to do so.

 

What defects and contradictions did you find in the beliefs of ahl sunnah?

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Correct me if I'm wrong but you're the same brother who tried to argue with me when I explained to another brother that shia belief their Imams are superior to the prophets(as).  If I remember correctly you said I was wrong, you only changed your mind after a group of shia corrected you and said that they indeed do believe their Imams are superior to the prophets.  The point being, shia belief that the Imams are superior to the prophets is elementary and yet you didn't know that, with all due respect you have more research to do.  If you are happy with being shia and are convinced of it, then great.  There is no compulsion in this religion, to you be your way and to me mine.  Just so you know, I was interested in shiaism at one point and did a lot of research into it.  It just didn't make any sense to me, the more I learn about shiaism the more I'm certain about the aqeedah of ahl sunnah wal jammah.  Shia have some valid historical/political grievances but theologically are wrong.  Many people are often attracted by the historical/political position of the shia, and there is a case to be make from their position but shia aqeedah is all wrong.  You said "every person with some sense in his mind can see that" shia are a thousand times better than sunnis.  Brother, historically shia couldn't even agree among themselves who was the mahdi. The zaydi shia who at one point were the main shia school don't agree with you on the infallibility of the imams, the hidden imam, muta etc. Look there were many shia sects and you wouldn't even believe what these sects held as the truth.  Some of those beliefs are still held my some shia today and on this very site.  I have no interest in argumentation so I remain silent.  You need to read more about shia beliefs and history.  I'm not trying to convert you or anyone for that matter, guidance is from Allah (azwj) and may HE ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì guide us all to the truth.  I love reading and doing research into all sects,  I'll continue to do so.

 

What defects and contradictions did you find in the beliefs of ahl sunnah?

 

First of all, it is a common belief that the imams are better then most of the prophets. Why? Simple, they are chosen to GUIDE mankind, while all most all prophets came for a group of people and were warners and messengers. Not only that, imamate is a succession. No where in the qurna does it say an imam became a prophet. It only speaks of prophets being tested even more and then being elevated to an imam. NOTE: Muhammad A.S is the greatest man, and he was an imam as well as a prophet. Second, it amazes me that you say shia theology is wrong. Have you not looked into your books and seen what blatant attributes are put on Allah and his messenger? It says the messenger got fooled by magic, and that he contemplated suicide, or he turned from a blind man. How is the greatest creation of Allah, not to mention Rasullah! able to do such rubbish! Allah was his protector, and yet you believe Allah failed to protect him? Muhammad came to teach us of aqlaq, manners, morality yet he supposedly cant sympathize with a blind man astagfirullah. Im not even getting into sunni islam as a whole and this is the rubbish I see. Not only that but you think Allah is pleased with every or anyone just because they are a "companion". Since when does being a friend give you a pass to heaven? Which joke is this? You put the prophets family below everyone else and yet you speak of them as if you love them. You enjoin evil among good and you never forbid it. You choose as leaders innovators and tyrants. You talk about how we shias cant decide about mahdi a.s which shias? WE are the true shias, the imami (12 imams). We deem the other shia sects as wrong. If you think you ahlul sunnah are right, think again. You have four schools of thought, with different beliefs in each of them. You cant even decide which is the correct way to pray. Yet your trying to compare us shias with other "shia" sects, oh please. You say you dont want to argue yet your spreading this blatant lies.

 

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:

… Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, ‘Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?’ They will say. ‘THE SHIN,’ AND SO Allah WILL THEN UNCOVER HIS SHIN whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s)

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/bukhari/093.sbt.html

 

 

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Paradise and the Fire (Hell) argued, and the Fire (Hell) said, ‘I have been given the privilege of receiving the arrogant and the tyrants.’ Paradise said, ‘What is the matter with me? Why do only the weak and the humble among the people enter me?’ On that, Allah said to Paradise. ‘You are My Mercy which I bestow on whoever I wish of my servants.’ Then Allah said to the (Hell) Fire, ‘You are my (means of) punishment by which I punish whoever I wish of my slaves. And each of you will have its fill.’ As for the Fire (Hell), it will not be filled till Allah puts His Foot over it whereupon it will say, ‘Qati! Qati!’ At that time it will be filled, and its different parts will come closer to each other; and Allah will not wrong any of His created beings. As regards Paradise, Allah will create a new creation to fill it with." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 373)

 

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Seven people will be shaded by Allah under His shade on the day when there will be no shade except His…" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24, Number 504)

 

 

 

Narrated Aisha: " The prophet(peace be upon him) was bewitched so that he used to think he would have sexual relations with his wives when he didn't. " [sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 71, Number 600]

 

 

As we all know, black magic(sihr) is from Shiatan. Moreover, a magician would seek help from Shiatan in order to affect the bewitched one by his magic. That being said, I ask you a simple question that is, would Shaitan have the power to possess the prophet?

Now lets look at what the Noble Quran says:

"indeed, he(Iblis) has no power over those who believe and put trust in their Lord. His Power is only over those who befriend him, and those who polytheist in him." [Quran 16:99-100]

"And the wrongdoers say "you follow not but a man affected by magic." [Quran 25:8 ]

Here is another insulting statement against the prophet claimed by your Bukhari where it was written in his book that the prophet wanted to commit suicide after receiving his first revelation from Jibrael :

Narrated Aisha: " Divine inspiration was also paused for a while and the prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains"

[bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111]

 

http://www.islamicit...ri/087.sbt.html

Edited by PureEthics

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@Pure Ethics

Many of the points you raised are quite silly but I have no interest in debating you on these trivial issues.  But you did bring up tashbih which is an issue of aqeedah so I'll like to present to the best of my ability the position of ahl sunnah on tashbih (anthropomorphism) which is what you eluded to by some of the ahadith you posted.   Historically, there has been an anthropomorphic group in Islamic history.  This group took every word in the quran and hadith literally.  So, for example the verse in surah al-fath says Allah's hands is over their hands (48:10) if you take this literally you are implying a belief in Allah (azwj) as having human attributes.  Yet this anthropomorphic view is rejected in the quran 42:11 There is nothing whatsoever like unto him.  If you look at the first verse most people will not take it literally but allegorically but absolute literalist take the literal meaning of it.  This group and their beliefs have been refuted over and over again in the books of ahl sunnah.  Anthropomorphism is reject in the aqeedah of ahl sunnah wal jammah quoting from aqeeda tahawiyyah: "whoever ascribes any human qualities to Allah has blasphemed.  So whoever perceives this takes heed and refrains from such statements of the disbelievers and knows that Allah, the Sublime and Exalted, in all of His attributes, is utterly unlike humanity".  

 

Quranic verses and authentic prophetic traditions with unclear meanings are known as mutashabihat, with regards to them ahl sunnah says "bi la kayfa wa la maana" meaning we believe in them and consider them true, without "how" or without "meaning".  An example of a mutashabih is "wajillah(the face of Allah)".  Anthropomorphic ahadith are known to be weak or forgeries.  Main point being tashbih is strictly against the aqeedah of ahl sunnah wal jammah.  May Allah (azwj) forgive any mistakes I've made.

 

If you want to have a serious discussion on aqeedah I'm game.  I'm not interesting in proving my position to be correct, nor prove you to be wrong.  I did not join a tribe.

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(Salam)

Yes. I made a mistake & if I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have corrected my info according to Shia knowledge. & I already told u that I don't completely agree with the Shias But I agree with Sunnis a lot less.

Please brother, calm down. I wasn't trying to be offensive Or anything. But if I was, accept my apologies.

I know my knowledge isn't enough & it will never be enough. I'm still learning. & I think No person can ever think that his knowledge is enough to teach others.

& in the start I went for some I would say less learned Shias who weren't suitable for the right knowledge. So they kinda led me wrong & I'm here to correct them. I do make mistakes & Alhamdulillah I make good use of them as Well.

After I started learning from the Qur'aan, Sahih Muslim and Bukhari, I realized that Sunnis are going against their own teachings. Brother, I'm not here to prove them I'm right and I'm the best Or anything. I LOVE to be refuted. That's one way I learn from my mistakes and may Allah guide me to the true path. I love my Sunni brothers. & I just want them to know the truth and follow what's right so that none of them ends up being one of the Left hand companions. :( & that includes you brother.The thing that bothers me is why sSunnis praise Muawiyah and Abu sufyan? I mean Even when I was a Sunni, I learnt that those two were hypocrites & my family and friends aren't that open minded about Shias either let alone their teachings But I was still taught that. At these things, I kinda get outta control and misbehave. My apologies brother. I just want to see the ENTIRE humanity in praise & don't wanna hurt anyone, let alone being offensive Or unkind.

May Allah protect us all, guide us to the true path, help us to understand each other better. Amen!

في امان الله

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@Pure Ethics

Many of the points you raised are quite silly but I have no interest in debating you on these trivial issues. But you did bring up tashbih which is an issue of aqeedah so I'll like to present to the best of my ability the position of ahl sunnah on tashbih (anthropomorphism) which is what you eluded to by some of the ahadith you posted. Historically, there has been an anthropomorphic group in Islamic history. This group took every word in the quran and hadith literally. So, for example the verse in surah al-fath says Allah's hands is over their hands (48:10) if you take this literally you are implying a belief in Allah (azwj) as having human attributes. Yet this anthropomorphic view is rejected in the quran 42:11 There is nothing whatsoever like unto him. If you look at the first verse most people will not take it literally but allegorically but absolute literalist take the literal meaning of it. This group and their beliefs have been refuted over and over again in the books of ahl sunnah. Anthropomorphism is reject in the aqeedah of ahl sunnah wal jammah quoting from aqeeda tahawiyyah: "whoever ascribes any human qualities to Allah has blasphemed. So whoever perceives this takes heed and refrains from such statements of the disbelievers and knows that Allah, the Sublime and Exalted, in all of His attributes, is utterly unlike humanity".

Quranic verses and authentic prophetic traditions with unclear meanings are known as mutashabihat, with regards to them ahl sunnah says "bi la kayfa wa la maana" meaning we believe in them and consider them true, without "how" or without "meaning". An example of a mutashabih is "wajillah(the face of Allah)". Anthropomorphic ahadith are known to be weak or forgeries. Main point being tashbih is strictly against the aqeedah of ahl sunnah wal jammah. May Allah (azwj) forgive any mistakes I've made.

If you want to have a serious discussion on aqeedah I'm game. I'm not interesting in proving my position to be correct, nor prove you to be wrong. I did not join a tribe.

Alhamduillah you don't believe in this rubbish. But I'm sorry to inform you many in your Ahle do. Not only that but look at the narrators of these Hadith. You whole school is literally based of these major narrators. This is a HUGE problem. If you are to take your Hadith/Sunnah from the likes of these people in which believed in such things, which no doubt you do, your whole system of beliefs fall into questioning and contradiction. I don't mind debating if its going to go somewhere. I absolutely hate it when you Sunnis spread false rubbish against Shias. Next time get your facts from reliable sources then present the notion. By the way if your implying your not in a school of thought among ahlulsunnah that's just false. There is absolutely no way your beliefs stem from no where.

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Alhamduillah you don't believe in this rubbish. But I'm sorry to inform you many in your Ahle do. Not only that but look at the narrators of these Hadith. You whole school is literally based of these major narrators. This is a HUGE problem. If you are to take your Hadith/Sunnah from the likes of these people in which believed in such things, which no doubt you do, your whole system of beliefs fall into questioning and contradiction. I don't mind debating if its going to go somewhere. I absolutely hate it when you Sunnis spread false rubbish against Shias. Next time get your facts from reliable sources then present the notion. By the way if your implying your not in a school of thought among ahlulsunnah that's just false. There is absolutely no way your beliefs stem from no where.

sorry to inform you but someone lied to you.  I've met many sunnis, I'm sure more than you have and no a single person believes in tashbih.  As for false rubbish sunnis supposedly spread about shia, you should read some of the things you ulama have written and in this day and age, you should see/listen lectures from your ulema.  Anyway lets by all means have our discussion,  I've been busy with work so response will be a bit late but I'll try to respond as soon as I can.  Starting things off, what is the shia belief with regards to tashbih? What are your beliefs with regards to the imam? what is raj'a? and do you believe in it?  I am more interested in understanding your beliefs 

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sorry to inform you but someone lied to you. I've met many sunnis, I'm sure more than you have and no a single person believes in tashbih. As for false rubbish sunnis supposedly spread about shia, you should read some of the things you ulama have written and in this day and age, you should see/listen lectures from your ulema. Anyway lets by all means have our discussion, I've been busy with work so response will be a bit late but I'll try to respond as soon as I can. Starting things off, what is the shia belief with regards to tashbih? What are your beliefs with regards to the imam? what is raj'a? and do you believe in it? I am more interested in understanding your beliefs

1). Beliefs regarding imams.

In short, chosen guides by Allah (swt):

The Qur'an says: "And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with his commands, and he fulfilled them. He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not wrong-doers." (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:124)

[Quran 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

[Quran 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

[Quran 28:5] And We desired to bestow a favor upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams, and to make them the heirs.

[Quran 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a with unjustly.

[Quran 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

[Quran 4:59] O you who believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are given supreme authority.

[Quran 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

[Quran 3:7] ....none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

I will not brother giving an interpretation for these verses as they pertain to imamat the forum is plentiful, just use the search function. However, I will say if one understands these verses and historical events/accounts such as (and not limited to): the event of dhul-el-ashira, manzilla, mubhiala, thaqualayn, ghadeer khum...in unison; I hope the shia belief in and validity of imamat to you, my friend; is clear(inshallah).

2). Ra'ja is the shia belief in the return if the 12th imam (imam al Mahdi (af)) from occultation with nabi isa (saw) who will restore balance to the injustice in the world as per Both sunni and shia beliefs, except that the ahlul sunnah believe he is not in occultation and has yet to be born but it is agreed he will be from the linage of bint al rassul, sayida Fatima (as).

I hope I have answered you, in a board sense, regarding these 2 matters. Research on your part is very vital for further understanding of shia beliefs. Wa Salam.

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