Cheating Wife And Mahr

[Marbles]

To get to the question about whether or not mahr should be paid I will explain the situation.

 

A cousin of mine went through the usual rituals of an arranged marriage and tied the knot with a girl whom he didn't know from before. During the honeymoon period, when romance and love is on full swing, the girl cold-shouldered her husband and remained distant and aloof most of the time.

 

Her behaviour led to a little argument which she used as a launching pad to malign her husband and her inlaws, always arguing, being arrogant and spiteful, making snide remarks, (examples can be furnished if needed), and just being a nuisance to her husband and her parents-in-law. All this within two months of the marriage.

 

So after six torturous months or so the husband got suspicious of her. She was always on the cell phone, door to the room locked, talking incessantly to what she said were her girlfriends and family. The husband went 007 on her and acquired call data of her phone number. There was one number which featured regularly. The phone number turned out to be a of a young man, unrelated to the girl.

 

To cut the long story short, she was cheating on her husband since day one of their marriage, talking amorously with a guy whom she knew from before her marriage. Further inquiries revealed that the girl loved the telephone guy but her parents simply refused to let her marry the guy she liked and coerced her into marrying my cousin (through arranged marriage). She acquiesced but decided to teach her parents a lesson. All this of course was not known to my cousin or anyone from our family. While she did what she did, my cousin and his family were unlucky to have this Star Plus drama played upon them.

 

My cousin was traumatized with this experience (so much so that he was given warnings at work to either come to his senses or he'd be fired) and while he was still thinking what to do the girl left the house and went back to her parents' place. That was the end of it. Soon divorce proceedings were completed and the chapter closed.

 

Now, here's the problem:

 

The nikah contract stipulated jewelry of x amount as her mahr. She did not take it with her when she left the house and now she is demanding that that jewelery, or its equivalent in cash, should be given to her because, Islamically, it belongs to her!!

 

My cousin and his family are very religious (but also naive) and at first they agreed to her because they thought it was the right thing to do since that jewelry was indeed written in mahr and mahr belongs to the woman.

 

Now, I don't think this is how it should be. She entered the marriage with the intention to fail it as soon as possible and that's exactly what she did. Neither her intentions were right nor she fulfilled the requirements of her nikah contract. My position (and some other family members' position) is that the girl has no right to demand anything from the mahr. In fact, she took some cash with her (that was also in her mahr) and I am telling my cousin to demand that back instead of giving her anything more.

 

In the light of this scenario, should or should not the mahr be paid? In what circumstances does the woman lose her right to mahr?

 

PS: mods, please don't move this into the Law and Jurisprudence subforum because I think it fits much better in this section as it is a complex situatio and would probably reqire some debate.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Marbles

[Abu Hadi]

Salam. 

What I don't understand is why did she just say no to the guy (her ex husband) if she didn't want to marry him and not put him and everyone else thru all this tragedy ? 

If it can be demonstrated that the marriage was entered into (by either husband or wife) under false pretenses or fraud, then the marriage contract is void so also stipulation for mahr is void. If she will admit, before witnesses, that she never wanted to marry him in the first place and she was coerced by her parents, or she did it just to 'teach her parents a lesson' , then the contract is null and void and she will not be entitled to anything. 

Of course, fraud in marriage is usually hard to prove conclusively. Most likely, he will have to give her this if it was part of the mahr, unless it can be proven that she entered into the marriage in fraud. 

If she entered into the marriage sincerely and later on (after the marriage was consummated) and later on changed her mind, then she is entitled to her mahr, unless the divorce is khula. 

[Marbles]

Salam. 

 

What I don't understand is why did she just say no to the guy (her ex husband) if she didn't want to marry him and not put him and everyone else thru all this tragedy ? 

 

If it can be demonstrated that the marriage was entered into (by either husband or wife) under false pretenses or fraud, then the marriage contract is void so also stipulation for mahr is void. If she will admit, before witnesses, that she never wanted to marry him in the first place and she was coerced by her parents, or she did it just to 'teach her parents a lesson' , then the contract is null and void and she will not be entitled to anything. 

Of course, fraud in marriage is usually hard to prove conclusively. Most likely, he will have to give her this if it was part of the mahr, unless it can be proven that she entered into the marriage in fraud. 

 

If she entered into the marriage sincerely and later on (after the marriage was consummated) and later on changed her mind, then she is entitled to her mahr, unless the divorce is khula. 

 

Wasalam and thanks for the reply brother Abu Hadi.

 

It remains a mystery why the girl did not tell the guy she was not happy with marrying him in the first place. Those who attended the wedding festivities including me observed nothing odd: happy, chirpy, smiling, just as a bride would look on the 'most important day' of her life. It didn't look as if she was forced.

 

Whatever I have recounted about her love affair and forced marriage is constructed from bits of pieces of info that have come our way. (an important source is the girl's own maternal aunt who's been sympathetic to us). There's been no definitive statement or a confession from the girl (or her family) explaining the motives behind her actions. As you can see, she and her family are eying the mahr jewelery and I doubt if they will say anything that would damage their chances of extracting jewelery from the ex-husband.

 

So let's say if it can't be proven conclusively that the girl entered the marriage with fraud, should then the mahr jewelery be handed to them without further ado? (Wouldn't that be a travesty of law and justice?).

 

Alternatively, how about if my cousin stands his ground and tries to make her confess to her fraud? (My suggestion to him). If he decides to push the girl to confess, how should he and his family go about it?

 

I need opinions, please.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Marbles

[HamzaTR]

Salam. A very sad story. I feel sorry for your cousin and her close ones..

About the Mahr question, she does not have the right to ask, for she did not think of this as a marriage, thus she does not deserve an islamic present from the husband on account of her loyalty. However, though she did not believe in the marriage and commitment, he did believe it and he was committed. Thus, if he refuses to give the mahr, it would mean he did not think of it as marriage either. Mahr is mentioned as a pre-given (or at least pre-determined) present, and the future cheating does not invalidate it. Again, because she was not loyal to the aqd, she deserves punishment and I hope she was and is punished. However, the mahr would denote to the commitment by the husband. If he refuses to give, it would mean he never believed in marriage either, thus has been in an adulterenous relationship. I wish none of this happened and she was committed to him. And that he had given mahr before. But, it really is a sad scene. May Allah give him and his family patience. This is my personal view, but you can refer the question to your marja. ma salam

[Waiting for HIM]

A classic question for the marja'.

Talking to that cell phone tower is considered a martial affair outside of marriage; she accepts it, and has witnesses in the form of phone records and the people surrounding her. First of all, she should be tried under the statutes of Islamic law of adultery (or attempted adultery) which is harsher given she was a married woman at that time. So make it known to her before her trying to get her rights on mehr. Also there are many cases where mehr becomes void, cheating could be one of those, not marrying with the intention of marriage could be another, not giving husband conjugal rights another. So again, a question to your marja!.

[Shiavert]

Asalaam Alaikum,

First of all sorry to hear of this ugly drama. Give her want she wants, her mahr ...just to be rid of her. If it buys peace of mind, so be it.

[Wisdom Lion]

Pawn that jewelry and on to the next one

[Maryaam]

Asalaam Alaikum,

First of all sorry to hear of this ugly drama. Give her want she wants, her mahr ...just to be rid of her. If it buys peace of mind, so be it.

 

Sounds right to me.  

 

She was a victim in all this too - along with the unknowing groom who was plunged into this drama. If she was planning on gaining materially from this marriage, she would not have left her jewelry behind.  She is probably being directed by other family members to go this extra step. It sounds like all she wanted was to be with the young man she had chosen and was pushed into this other marriage by her family. I imagine looking happy at the wedding celebration was a snapshot of being caught up in what others told her was the best for her and given that it was an elaborate party - it was a fun night.

 

With all the hearsay and innuendo and basically miscommunication from "telephone" communication and gossip - who knows what is going on exactly? But, the only way to end this and prevent further stories and heartache and prolonging of this mess is to give up the baubles and a few $$ and move on.  The longer this goes on, the more side stories that are generated and the greater the likelihood of damaged reputations as well. This is something that needs to be ended as of yesterday.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Maryaam

[Mahdi_theguideforall]

Honestly sister maryam, its nice for you to have sympathy for this girl, but for me I have no sympathy whatsoever if what brother marbles said is the whole story.

That one girl has ruined LOTS of lives, the brother who married her will be scarred for life, will probably think twice before trusting someone. The in laws too, must have gone through hell. I really really feel bad for them.

If the girl truly was a mumina, then all this would have never happend. Along with ruining her life, she has chosen to take down with her many other victims. However, Allah (swt) is all knowing and just, so we are in no position to judge.

Brother marbles, the best thing to do is without a doubt to email the marja ur cousin brother does taqleed of. The people here will give you different opinions, and you will never know the correct way unless you get the response from the marja. If he gives her the mahr when she doesnt deserve it, then I guess he has committed a fault too hasnt he? Correct me if I am wrong.

I pray for your cousin brother to get a religious, beautiful and caring wife and be over this trauma as soon as possible.

[Maryaam]

On 2/20/2014 at 9:41 AM, Muditz786 said:

Honestly sister maryam, its nice for you to have sympathy for this girl, but for me I have no sympathy whatsoever if what brother marbles said is the whole story.

That one girl has ruined LOTS of lives, the brother who married her will be scarred for life, will probably think twice before trusting someone. The in laws too, must have gone through hell. I really really feel bad for them.

If the girl truly was a mumina, then all this would have never happend. Along with ruining her life, she has chosen to take down with her many other victims. However, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is all knowing and just, so we are in no position to judge.

It is not so much that I have sympathy - just that I know what family pressure is like and it can wear you down and take its toll on you.  The blame game is never constructive - there is a bad situation and it needs to be fixed.  

My thought was that who knows what was going on here unless one had direct communication with her - which is not the case - I am sure Marbles is reporting to the best of his knowledge - but this is one loaded situation with probably a few agenda in play and we are getting one side of it. To be harsh, there are nosy interfering people on both sides and if a few $$ ends this - then that is the thing to do. "Punisihing" her or taking more legal steps is not going to soothe the disrespectful and maltreatment of the groom - it is going to prolong the damage to him.  Shiavert was right when he/she said that peace of mind is the goal here.  Carrying on by doing something to hurt back at her is going to be a boomerang for further involvement with her family  - it seems this marriage was not her idea. She was probably being married off to avoid her being married to the one she wanted. That makes her a victim as well. The whole situation needs to be ended. Peace of mind trumps some jewellery and money. Let this guy get on with his life with as little damage as possible. 

[Mahdi_theguideforall]

Well yeah sister maryam you're right, but I mean it also depends on the financial situation of the cousin. Marriages are VERY VERY expensive, and that few $$ of the mahr might mean a lot to him. Parents spend their life savings to get their children married. Lets not forget that brother marbles also said that his cousin is jeopardizing his career too and was given a stern warning from his boss. Thus he is at a risk of losing his job.

The best thing would be to email the marja to get a definitive ruling, try and send him the whole picture fRom both sides. People here will have different views, some of which might be wrong.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Muditz786

[The Green Knight]

Marbles, if this happened in Pakistan then all you do is contact a cheap, third rate lawyer who can deal in civil cases. Toss him a few bucks now and then and the girl and her parents can wait an eternity for even a divorce let alone that dowry. No need to appear in court hearings either, the paki lawyer will take care of everything and through our ingenious justice system of pakistan, leave them the two choices of either going insane or coming to that old bargaining table. Meanwhile, the girl can't even legally remarry until the divorce case is solved.

[Maryaam]

Well yeah sister maryam you're right, but I mean it also depends on the financial situation of the cousin. Marriages are VERY VERY expensive, and that few $$ of the mahr might mean a lot to him. Parents spend their life savings to get their children married. Lets not forget that brother marbles also said that his cousin is jeopardizing his career too and was given a stern warning from his boss. Thus he is at a risk of losing his job.

The best thing would be to email the marja to get a definitive ruling, try and send him the whole picture fRom both sides. People here will have different views, some of which might be wrong.

 

I agree - whatever definitively ends this is the best.  It was the fact that this was hurting him mentally that I thought just accepting the financial loss and moving on was the best. I understand weddings are really expensive in the Pakistan culture and that families often extend themselves far too much financially - but there is no recouping or healing of this loss. There need to be significant efforts to move on and promote the healing of the groom - there is no dollar value on mental health.  

 

The girl is still living in that family - her hell has just begun.  She is now a divorcee with a pushy family and the butt of community gossip and has much more limited prospects for remarriage. There are no winners here.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Maryaam

[Mahdi_theguideforall]

^ Yup without a doubt, let us try to remember them both in our prayers. Let the brother heal fast and find a wife he is deserving of, and let the sister be guided on the right path which is the path that pleases Allah (s.w.t) and the path that will save her fRom desturction not only in this world but in the hereafter.

Plus sister maryam, the girl defnitely has done something wrong, but you were right in that she too is probably under a lot of pressure. I mean she has done a mistake, but imagine how much bs she is going to have to take from the community, and if this is in Pakistan then she will probably be forever judged according to this mistake. I really do feel bad for her if we were to look at this situation from the other perspective. Inshaallah she will get the strength to go through the trials, and in time the brother she hurt will be able to forgive her.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Muditz786

[Waiting for HIM]

Sounds right to me.  

 

She was a victim in all this too - along with the unknowing groom who was plunged into this drama. If she was planning on gaining materially from this marriage, she would not have left her jewelry behind.  She is probably being directed by other family members to go this extra step. It sounds like all she wanted was to be with the young man she had chosen and was pushed into this other marriage by her family. I imagine looking happy at the wedding celebration was a snapshot of being caught up in what others told her was the best for her and given that it was an elaborate party - it was a fun night.

 

With all the hearsay and innuendo and basically miscommunication from "telephone" communication and gossip - who knows what is going on exactly? But, the only way to end this and prevent further stories and heartache and prolonging of this mess is to give up the baubles and a few $$ and move on.  The longer this goes on, the more side stories that are generated and the greater the likelihood of damaged reputations as well. This is something that needs to be ended as of yesterday.

I second you on that. 

 

She might have been a victim up until she was married. Asian parents (pakis, indians, iranians, iraqis, lebanese), are forceful, manipulative, coercive, and imposing to the core. Its the part of the culture I guess where they exercise maximum control over live of their kids specially once it comes to marriage :)

 

She just became sneaky and got vengeful. You can't expect a half wit teenager to grasp the consequences of her actions and how many lives she ruined. Many men in such situations from same cultures would have done the same, that is, got coerced in marriage and maintain an extra marital once get bored with the 'mom's choice'.  

[notme]

Make her family suffer? It seems she is making the husband suffer!

Without knowing her intentions, it is impossible to determine the status of the marriage. If it was fraudulent he owes her nothing. If it was a mistake he has to give the mehr if the marriage was consummated. Since her intentions are not known, he can either confront her privately and ask her, or he should assume the best, give her the jewelry, and take it as a painful life lesson.

[StarryNight]

I don't understand how does she or her family have the guts to ask for the mahr after this......

[baqar]

On 2/20/2014 at 7:10 AM, Marbles said:

In the light of this scenario, should or should not the mahr be paid? In what circumstances does the woman lose her right to mahr?

Brother, if the family lives in Karachi, Lahore or another one of the major cities of Pakistan, as far as Islamic law is concerned, they should have access to plenty of Shia Maulanas, who should be able to give legal opinion much better than anyone here.   

Morally, I think the girl should not get anything but the important thing, in my view, is that the family needs to know her legal entitlement, in light of Shia fiqh?

Don't you think?

On 2/20/2014 at 7:10 AM, Marbles said:

The husband went 007 on her and acquired call data of her phone number. 

How did he manage to do that?

I always thought that telephone companies are legally required not to divulge that information except when required by the court or in special cases such as espionage, crime investigation and  what is vaguely known as the national interest.

On 2/20/2014 at 11:05 AM, Waiting for HIM said:

She just became sneaky and got vengeful. You can't expect a half wit teenager to grasp the consequences of her actions and how many lives she ruined. Many men in such situations from same cultures would have done the same, that is, got coerced in marriage and maintain an extra marital once get bored with the 'mom's choice'.  

That is a likely scenario.

But regardless what her moral or mental strengths are, both families need to know what their rights are from the point of view of Shia law. 

And the law of the land, of course. 

[Marbles]

Thank you all for your opinions.

I also consider the girl a victim of this long and sordid tale if what I have related about her being forced into marriage is true in spirit.

I have often said that when victims of something strike back, they don't do so in a morally upright manner; their defensive reactions often hurt many unrelated people and thus they create more victims of their own. The girl has damaged my cousin's emotionally to the point that he avoids his own family and has become somewhat of an absentminded loner. However, here is some info which may shed more light on the case.

The behaviour of the girl when she was caught has been the biggest shock. She didn't deny her wrongdoing but instead of hanging her head in shame and apologising for the fraud and hurt she's caused, the girl launched a string of accusations against the guy, which I absolutely know to be completely false. Accusations include: He wants to lock her in the house, he beat her, he was jealous when she talked to her work colleagues etc. The guy is still being traduced and calumnied.

I don't know how the girl is being treated internally at her home by her own family but what is surprising to us is that the girl and her family are apparently on the same page with the accusations. It is as if their face-saving defence mechanism has set in. You know they have to launder their tarnished image and to that end they are rumouring against the guy and slandering him as much as they can. They answer with complete silence and evade the issue when asked to explain the infidelity of the girl, even though in the beginning when the story of the affair broke and evidence was furnished to them, the brothers and the father of the girl were very sorry. Now, it appears they have revised their defence strategy?? Can someone read between the lines as to what's going on in their minds? Because to us their behaviour is really puzzling...

Let me tell you something really amazing. When the couple went for honeymoon in the mountainous north the girl strongly insisted on going to a particular town that doesn't lie on the honeymoon trail. There she forced her husband to invite a guy she said was a "family friend" and had a job posting in that town. The husband reluctantly did as he was asked. So one night they had dinner together with this third individual. It went well but it was an odd situation. When things became clear some moths later it turned it out that it was the same lover of the girl. Such audacity, such shameless daring - what do you make of it?

The guy has worked like a donkey for the past few years to save money for a good mahr package and if he loses this, he won't be in a position for several more years to offer a good dowry to another girl if he decides to get re-married. So think of it as something really important. He is 33 now.

My cousin is in the process of asking learned scholars but I was personally wondering what he can, may, should, must do next...

On 2/20/2014 at 9:29 AM, Maryaam said:

If she was planning on gaining materially from this marriage, she would not have left her jewelry behind.  She is probably being directed by other family members to go this extra step.

She couldn't take the jewelery with her when she left because it was locked away in a bank locker. In the light of what I have reported above, it's very much possible that her strings are being pulled by her family.

On 2/20/2014 at 10:12 AM, Darth Vader said:

Marbles, if this happened in Pakistan then all you do is contact a cheap, third rate lawyer who can deal in civil cases. Toss him a few bucks now and then and the girl and her parents can wait an eternity for even a divorce let alone that dowry. No need to appear in court hearings either, the paki lawyer will take care of everything and through our ingenious justice system of pakistan, leave them the two choices of either going insane or coming to that old bargaining table. Meanwhile, the girl can't even legally remarry until the divorce case is solved.

Yes, it's Pakistan and there are one thousand and one ways to make the girl suffer if that's what needs to be done. But the guy wants to draw the line and get over this as as soon as possible.

On 2/20/2014 at 2:42 PM, baqar said:

How did he manage to do that?

I always thought that telephone companies are legally required not to divulge that information except when required by the court or in special cases such as espionage, crime investigation and  what is vaguely known as the national interest.

That's right but he used his contacts to find someone working for the service provider and obtained required details. Alternatively, it's not hard to find someone willing to divulge confidential info in return for a payment. it is definitely illegal but you know...

[baqar]

On 2/20/2014 at 3:38 PM, Marbles said:

There she forced her husband to invite a guy she said was a "family friend" and had a job posting in that town.

To be honest, if he is not bound by the law of the land, considering that he has been cheated, he should not pay a single cent, come what may.

Personally I think fiqh is on his side too.  After all, she deceived him.

[baqar]

On 2/20/2014 at 3:38 PM, Marbles said:

Can someone read between the lines as to what's going on in their minds? Because to us their behavior is really puzzling...

Salvage their reputation for the long-term.

[notme]

On 2/20/2014 at 3:46 PM, baqar said:

Personally I think fiqh is on his side too. After all, she deceived him.

On 2/20/2014 at 4:26 PM, baqar said:

Salvage their reputation for the long-term.

Agree and agree

[tearingmyhairout]

just be happy theres no kids involved. move on and be happy.

[tearsofregret]

Asalam Alykum,

I thought about your post quite a lot and thought about what would I do if I had been in a similar situation. Had I been in Pakistan and had been a bit younger, I would have obtained recordings of the conversations or used a software to start recording calls prior to making a move and then gathered the family and presented my case. But few years older and after becoming less aggressive and impulsive, I still state that though two wrongs do not make a right, your relative needs to kill the situation and leave this behind him. Be it she was pressured and was a victim, she could have spoken to your relative prior to their marriage perhaps. Unfortunately, we cannot predict how and what would have happened. Sadly, this is how Muslim communities have become. May Allah allow us to become better parents and become true followers of Ahl Ul Bayt. I must inform you that logically, the Nikah contract is valid. That is because the girl did choose from her own will, be it to teach her parents a lesson because people marry for different reasons, money, stability, companionship, fulfill their desires etc. Now the girl and her family are trying to salvage their reputation.

After a lot of thinking, though scholars ruling may differ, I would have given the Mahr and closed the chapter.

I know it may seem like a coward's move, people always say take a stand for the right etc but sometimes you have to get out of the mess and the quickest exit is not to fight but to turn the politics of a situation over its head. Her family may not agree because at the end of the day, forced or unforced marriage, the girl is their daughter.

I am sorry that this happened. But you must remind your relative that it is an event that will pass. There are bad people in this world and there are good people in this world. Move on and I am sure you that he will find a wife that he will read Salah to thank Allah for. Alternatively he can, sit and think about the next strategy and the result will be a vengeful, anger and hatred filled person who doesn't want to trust women.

Ma'Salam.

[Abu Hadi]

On 2/20/2014 at 8:35 AM, Marbles said:

Wasalam and thanks for the reply brother Abu Hadi.

It remains a mystery why the girl did not tell the guy she was not happy with marrying him in the first place. Those who attended the wedding festivities including me observed nothing odd: happy, chirpy, smiling, just as a bride would look on the 'most important day' of her life. It didn't look as if she was forced.

Whatever I have recounted about her love affair and forced marriage is constructed from bits of pieces of info that have come our way. (an important source is the girl's own maternal aunt who's been sympathetic to us). There's been no definitive statement or a confession from the girl (or her family) explaining the motives behind her actions. As you can see, she and her family are eying the mahr jewelery and I doubt if they will say anything that would damage their chances of extracting jewelery from the ex-husband.

So let's say if it can't be proven conclusively that the girl entered the marriage with fraud, should then the mahr jewelery be handed to them without further ado? (Wouldn't that be a travesty of law and justice?).

Alternatively, how about if my cousin stands his ground and tries to make her confess to her fraud? (My suggestion to him). If he decides to push the girl to confess, how should he and his family go about it?

I need opinions, please.

First, from what I know, if fraud cannot be proven, the marriage was consumated, and she claims that the marriage was entered into sincerely, 

(all three conditions must be met) 

then yes, she is legally entitled to the jewelry, from what I know, but you should consult a sheik or alim who is an expert in this area of Islamic law for a second opinion, if that is possible. 

There are many unjust things that happen in this life, but that is why we have the next life as a balancer. 

If she did the marriage as a fraud and then had an affair, can you imagine what is going to happen to her in the next life ? 

When she has to stand before Allah(s.w.a) with the weight of these actions on her neck ? 

There is justice, but it doesn't always come right away. 

If your cousin violates the hukm sharia (Islamic law) by not giving her the mahr she is entitled to legally (providing the conditions are met and after consultation with an alim) then he is also being unjust and he will share some of the punishment. If he wants to be clear before Allah(s.w.a) and not enter the grave with anything on his neck, he should follow the law. 

He cannot trick her into confessing. She may eventually confess on her own, but maybe not. As we say in America, he may have to 'bite the bullet' on this one but believe me, in the end if he gets thru this without going down to the level of fraud and violation of the law, he will come out a better person and his life will be better in the future, InShahAllah. Salam. 

[Qa'im]

If her committing zina is not proven shar`i, and her husband had consummated the marriage with her, and their divorce was ordinary (not khulu`) then she is entitled to the full mahr. Not giving her the dowry would be infringing on her rights in this case. My recommendation is to give the dowry, and learn from the mistake - it will end the animosity between the two families, and the they'll be able to move on.

This is another black mark on arranged/forced marriages: don't marry someone you don't know, and don't promise a large dowry to a woman you've never heard of.

[kim.tinkerbell]

Salam,

Something like that happened to my cousin, the girl was talking to her actual cousin and was waiting for him to reach uk. My cousin got engaged to the girl but he too like your cousion didnt know that the girl has another guy on her mind. I mean that girl had no self respect, she was shameless to and said some werid stuff in arabic, that no girl with shame will say. She was planning on two ropes, she wanted to secure a marriage just incase her cousin couldnt make it to uk.

My cousin eneded everything and he didnt want anything from her not even the mahar. My father is very relgious and known, so he didnt want my cousin haq to go so he want with my cousin and got everything back.

There are many guys that ask for every single penny back, just take a knowledgable person with you that everyone knows and she will not be able to say much.

That girls family where very ashamed of their daughter and apologised for what she did. To be honest I told my mum that the girl seems werid and something was not right about her, but no one listened to me.

I think shari3an he should be allowed to take it back because she was not sadka (truthful) with him. Am not sure if she's the victum because usually must people even if their forced into something show signs of them being ashamed of what they have done, when their in the wrong.

Your cousin will find a better person inshallah, tell him to not let her have her way and stay strong.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

On 2/21/2014 at 4:10 PM, Qa said:

If her committing zina is not proven shar`i, and her husband had consummated the marriage with her, and their divorce was ordinary (not khulu`) then she is entitled to the full mahr. Not giving her the dowry would be infringing on her rights in this case. My recommendation is to give the dowry, and learn from the mistake - it will end the animosity between the two families, and the they'll be able to move on.

This is another black mark on arranged/forced marriages: don't marry someone you don't know, and don't promise a large dowry to a woman you've never heard of.

And to further add on. If it is a khula talaq then the husband doesn't have to pay mehr and can claim damages for the trauma she has inflicted.

[baqar]

On 2/21/2014 at 4:10 PM, Qa said:

If her committing zina is not proven shar`i, and her husband had consummated the marriage with her, and their divorce was ordinary (not khulu`) then she is entitled to the full mahr. 

 What if her sexual indiscretion is not proven but her deception can be proved?  

Is deception not a punishable offence in Islam?

On 2/21/2014 at 4:10 PM, Qa said:

My recommendation is to give the dowry and learn from the mistake 

 That doesn't sound like a very just solution. 

Shias are always told that justice is more important in the eyes of God than anything else.

It comes next only to TAUHEED in the USOOL e DEEN.

In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if different scholars would give different verdicts.

Considering the differences of opinions of top scholars in various matters, everyone knows that fiqh is not cast in stone. 

On 2/21/2014 at 4:31 PM, siraatoaliyinhaqqun said:

If it is a khula talaq, then the husband doesn't have to pay mehr and can claim damages for the trauma she has inflicted.

How are the damages calculated?

And can he claim damages if the divorce is not khula?   

On 2/21/2014 at 4:26 PM, kim.tinkerbell said:

I think shari'an, he should be allowed to take it back because she was not truthful with him. 

I agree.

Deception should not be allowed to prosper.

Anyway, I don't think we need to worry too much.

Brother Marbles does not live in Mongolia or the Galapagos Islands.

He lives in a part of the world where access to Shia scholarship is within reach, at least in the major towns. 

We have some very knowledgeable Shia scholars both in India and Pakistan, most of them following the Grand Ayatullah Sistani. 

In fact, the brother can get a second opinion as many times over as he wishes.

I would actually be very happy if, after contacting them, brother Marbles would be good enough to enlighten us with the decisions.

Apart from enlightenment, it will help the rest of us to keep in view the possibility of such things happening in our own lives or the lives of those we love. 

[Gypsy]

If the wife didn't become a proper wife (intercourse) and all, then she doesn't get any mahr.

You stated that she took some cash from the husband. Since she's leaving him without even being in a marriage with him, then she has to return the cash back to him.

Because there's an element of fraud here committed from the female side (wife), the husband can demand the wedding expense and everything that he's paid for the wedding: including the expense for wedding, food and even wedding accessories.

On 2/21/2014 at 4:10 PM, Qa said:

This is another black mark on arranged/forced marriages: don't marry someone you don't know, and don't promise a large dowry to a woman you've never heard of.

So true, this has to be said over and over again. I don't even understand why people are entering in such a risky marriages with perfect strangers.

[kim.tinkerbell]

So true, this has to be said over and over again. I don't even understand why people are entering in such a risky marriages with perfect strangers.

Salam gypsy,

The problem is that people that refer you to the person act as thou they now them for a life time and so if they tell you their good and you do background research and find that there is only minimle infromation about the person, then your bound to take the word of the person that introducted you to them in the first place.

It's very hard to figure out people because most people tell you the good side of the person and hide the bad. Even when you get engaged you cant figure out a person these days.

[Marbles]

There seems to be two widely differing set of views as to what should be done hmmm...

On 2/21/2014 at 4:10 PM, Qa said:

If her committing zina is not proven shar`i, and her husband had consummated the marriage with her, and their divorce was ordinary (not khulu`) then she is entitled to the full mahr. Not giving her the dowry would be infringing on her rights in this case. My recommendation is to give the dowry, and learn from the mistake - it will end the animosity between the two families, and the they'll be able to move on.

This is another black mark on arranged/forced marriages: don't marry someone you don't know, and don't promise a large dowry to a woman you've never heard of.

The conditions which have been set out in this thread for the abrogation of the right of the girl to demand mahr cannot be met.

One, the girl has not (and will not) admit to her fraud, i.e, that she entered the marriage with the intention to sabotage it as soon as possible.

Two, I don't think she committed zina (as in intercourse) during the time she was married to my cousin. Even if she did and we don't know about it, this can't be proven: She won't admit to it and there are no four direct witnesses (if that's what you mean by proving it shar'i?)

Three, the divorce was ordinary not khula. I think this is where the guy blundered. He probably should have refused to give divorce and let the girl go for khula.

And the marriage was consummated.

I will tell you what the guy wants. He doesn't want to cash mahr back. He doesn't want any expenses etc paid back to him. He just wants the girl to get lost and not bother him and his family anymore. He doesn't want to give anymore to that deceitful girl.

On 2/22/2014 at 7:42 AM, Gypsy said:

You stated that she took some cash from the husband. Since she's leaving him without even being in a marriage with him, then she has to return the cash back to him.

She took the cash when she left home without telling everyone. She was still married at that time. She then refused to return to her husband's house. Later divorce proceedings took place and completed. She did not return the cash. Now, she is demanding mahr jewelery to be paid in full (which is a jackpot as it runs into thousands of US dollars). This is shocking to me. Instead of being sorry for her conduct, she is making things more difficult for the ex-husband and his family.

Quote

So true, this has to be said over and over again. I don't even understand why people are entering in such a risky marriages with perfect strangers.

This is very true, I personally cannot imagine myself doing what my cousin did, not at all. But In some families segregation is so complete that there are no other practical options but to dive headlong into the dark pool of arranged marriage. Even when opportunities to interact with the opposite gender exist (college and at workplace), guys and girls are conditioned to behave in way that they don't take steps to pursue matters if they "like" someone for marriage. In their view, approaching someone they met independently outside their house without the express knowledge/permission of respective families is seen 'improper' and 'dishonorable'. I see it being played out all the time here. This cultural conditioning is also a cause of great deal of deviant behaviour in the youth.

[Qa'im]

@baqar: I am only naming the rights of the woman in this case, which should not be infringed upon. If the story is true, then she was deceitful, and she and her "friend" will be held accountable for that on the Day of Resurrection. But in this life, she is entitled to that which was promised to her - the aqd is what makes a relationship legitimate with Allah and with society, and so it cannot be compromised, even in this case.

Again - don't marry a complete stranger, I don't care what your culture tells you to do. It is halal, but it's unreasonable. If I asked some of the same people "Would you start a business with a complete stranger?" they'd say no, but they'll have no problem sharing the same house, kids, and bed with a stranger because mama and baba told them to.

[Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz]

It isn't as cut and dry.

You should ask a shaykh regarding this.

@ original poster.

[Faithful Dome]

The mahr is hers, you don't know her true intentions.