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Azaan shah

Why Shia

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Hi im a new member ! I had studied shia sect. I want individual opinion( not debate) of shias about their imams. I have some shia friends saying that hazrat Ali r.a had high rank than other prophets because someday all prophets will pray after him, he will be the imam, and they also provide some suni references, .. They say after prophet saww Ali r.a is greater, than comes the other prophets because Ali r.a was infallible while some prophets made mistakes. What u say?

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Hi im a new member ! I had studied shia sect. I want individual opinion( not debate) of shias about their imams. I have some shia friends saying that hazrat Ali r.a had high rank than other prophets because someday all prophets will pray after him, he will be the imam, and they also provide some suni references, .. They say after prophet saww Ali r.a is greater, than comes the other prophets because Ali r.a was infallible while some prophets made mistakes. What u say?

 

Well you clearly havnt studied dirt! I dont know where you are getting your info from? Maybe wahabis-r-us.com?  It is a common belief among most of our scholars that the prophet a.s is higher ranked than all of the imams and prophets. He is the greatest man to have been ever created. We also believe all prophets and imams to be infallible. Maybe you can restart your research? How about my links, check them out.

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@Azaan shah brother I also have shia friends and I too did research into shiaism and at one time was very interested.  However, and with all due respect I don't mean any offence to anyone.  I found that depending on who you ask and what books you read the shia take different positions.  I'm also aware of this believe that the imams are higher in status than the prophets and indeed it is a belief of some shia.  The only reason I didn't go the shia route is because of some of the aqeeda issues, beliefs about the imams, occultation, the belief in raj'a, ghulat shia beliefs (some of those beliefs have been retained to this day). some believed imam jafar as-saadiq was the mahdi, some believed he is Allah, some believed sayyidina ali (ra) was Allah, the list goes on and on.  Shia history is very interesting(interesting enough early shia scholars considered the cursing of abu bakr and umar ghuluw). but I would advise you to do some serious research on the matter before you make your decision and may Allah(azwj) guide you.  I would also recommend you study the basic aqeeda of ahl sunnah wal jammah. 

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-and-prophets

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait

 

The website is a shia website not wahhabi propaganda against shia. 

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@Azaan shah brother I also have shia friends and I too did research into shiaism and at one time was very interested. However, and with all due respect I don't mean any offence to anyone. I found that depending on who you ask and what books you read the shia take different positions. I'm also aware of this believe that the imams are higher in status than the prophets and indeed it is a belief of some shia. The only reason I didn't go the shia route is because of some of the aqeeda issues, beliefs about the imams, occultation, the belief in raj'a, ghulat shia beliefs (some of those beliefs have been retained to this day). some believed imam jafar as-saadiq was the mahdi, some believed he is Allah, some believed sayyidina ali (ra) was Allah, the list goes on and on. Shia history is very interesting(interesting enough early shia scholars considered the cursing of abu bakr and umar ghuluw). but I would advise you to do some serious research on the matter before you make your decision and may Allah(azwj) guide you. I would also recommend you study the basic aqeeda of ahl sunnah wal jammah.

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-and-prophets

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait

The website is a shia website not wahhabi propaganda against shia.

Most of ur post is baseless bull[Edited Out] I dunno what shia u met that thought imam jafar(as) was the mahdi and there is a minor group called nauseri that take ali (as) as god

But I've met sunnis who call muaviya and yazid lanat be them they call them (ra) also heard sunnis say hazrat isa (as) is the mahdi so shall I base the whole Sunni belief this or shall I use my brains and actually look at what the sunnis believe ur playing a [Edited Out]py blame game 2 can play it bring solid proof of shia belief not things u have heard here's a video of what some of ur ppl do shall I blame all sunnis for this

Edited by Syed_Zago

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You know reading a book will be really good and it will tell you all you need to know.

Yes books are great sources but sometimes It also depend on a person that how is he getting it. Many people read their books but still think that Ali r.a is greater than Prophets. Iam not saying all shias but just wanted direct view. Thanks

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(Salam)

Firstly, (as) is used with Ahlulbayt since Allah is already razi with them & almost all r the blood of Mohammed (pbuh) .

Secondly, No, brother. Imams r not higher in rank than any Prophet. Not even Imam Ali (as) . Imam Ali (as) is but a successor to the Prophet & as Sahih Muslim & Bukhari also state that Holy Prophet said: Ali is unto me as Aaron was to Moses except that there will b No Prophet after me.

Edited by Shian e Ali

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@syad zago first off the video was very funny and entertaining, thank you for that lol.  second, I said ghalut shia beliefs, if you don't know what that means all you have to do is ask your ullama.  you do realize there were many shia groups with many different beliefs about the imams. noticed i always said "believed" when i refered to ghulat shia

 

@shian e ali 

 

It has been narrated to us Ahmad Bin Is’haq, from Abdullah Bin Hamaad, from Sayf Al-Tamaar who said:

"There was with Abu Abdullah (as) a group of Shiites in Al-Hijr. He (as) said: 'Are there eyes watching us?' We turned to the right and to the left, we did not see any one. We said, 'There are no eyes watching us'. He said: ‘By the Lord of the Kaaba, and the Lord of the House’, three times, then said: ‘If I was between Musa (as) and Khizr (as), I would have told them both that I am more knowledgeable than them both, and would have given them both the news which was not in their hands, because Musa (as) and Khizr (as) were Given the knowledge of what has happened, and were not Given knowledge of what will be happening up to the Day of Judgement, and the Messenger of Allah (saww) was Given knowledge of what has happened and what will be happening up to the Day of Judgement. We have inherited from the Messenger of Allah (saww) the inheritance.
 
[source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 3, Chapter. 7, Hadees. 1]

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(Salam)

Firstly, (as) is used with Ahlulbayt since Allah is already razi with them & almost all r the blood of Mohammed (pbuh) .

Secondly, No, brother. Imams r not higher in rank than any Prophet. Not even Imam Ali (as) . Imam Ali (as) is but a successor to the Prophet & as Sahih Muslim & Bukhari also state that Holy Prophet said: Ali is unto me as Aaron was to Moses except that there will b No Prophet after me.

Not true. In the Quran Allah ELEVATED prophets into imams. If being an imam was lower than a prophet why is there no verse stating "you were an imam and we made you a prophet"? When the quran says opposite. The only person higher than all the imams is Muhammad A.S

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But the verse you r referring to, doesn't the word talk about becoming a leader? Allah promised him that He will make Ibraheem (as) the leader of his nation, right? Isn't that a different case than our Imams from the Ahlulbayt? The word Imam doesn't actually mean a higher status. Allah just promised He will make him a leader, is that not So? Please, educate me.

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But the verse you r referring to, doesn't the word talk about becoming a leader? Allah promised him that He will make Ibraheem (as) the leader of his nation, right? Isn't that a different case than our Imams from the Ahlulbayt? The word Imam doesn't actually mean a higher status. Allah just promised He will make him a leader, is that not So? Please, educate me.

Brother, please do some research before making conclusions as to describing shia beliefs. Read this article here: it explains it beautifully.

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/imamat-versus-prophethood-part-1

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Imams are higher ranked then all prophets apart from our prophet (saw) it's clear by the ayat in quran were prophet ibrahim (as) was promoted to imam and also u have to jus look at history.

1. when hazrat Adam was told to leave janat he was also asked to remove is janat clothes while imam hasan (as) and hussain (as) received heavenly clothes this is a small thing I no but carry on reading

2.When bibi Maryam (as) was about to giv birth she was told to leave the religious place and gave birth under a date tree I think correct me if I'm wrong on the other hand maula alis (as) mother stood in front of kaba and if she had walked through to doors and went in we wud have said Ok she walked in by her own will but the kabas wall itself cracked open which was a clear divine invitation to enter that crack is still present today

3. Hazrat moosa (as) was fold by Allah to go to pharoan but he said I'm afraid to go alone because I have killed 1 of his ppl could u send my brother Aaron as a helper while we look at hazrat ali (as) badr khybar ohad khandak sifeen god knows how many wars 1 man army fought alone while others ran protected prophet alone (as) received a sword from the heavens

4. When hazrat ibrahim (as) was gona sacrifice hazrat ismail (as) hazrat ismail said that I will do sabr when our prophet (saw) told ali (as) to sleep on his bed and that will save the prophets life but ali (as) life would be in danger that was the first time ever a sajda e shukar was done not sabr shukar major difference and he said I'll glady die for my prophet also other imams most notably imam hussain (as) and karbala no1s submission and sacrifice touches that.

5. Imams are infallible that means they dnt commit sin and they always make the best decision with the highest reward example is hazrat Adam (as) ate the forbidden fruit it wasn't a sin but it wasn't the best of deeds Allah would have been more happier if he didn't likewise with the prophet who was eaten by the whale etc etc prophets are also sin free but they can make lesser rewarding decision apart from our prophet our imams always do the most highest ranked act maybe another brother can explain this in more detail I'm not that learnt also

6. Every1 knows imam mahdi (as) and hazrat isa(as) are gona return together and pray it's always obvious that the higher ranked lead the prayer guess who's gona lead yep that's right an imam not a prophet

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One more think read this quran surah 38 saad ayat 75

Yusuf Ali

(Allah) Said o Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?

High and mighty ones while adam(as) was being made there existed certain high and mighty beings not single it's plural more then 1 and it's clear by the verse that only these high and mighty ones didn't bow to Adam

We shia believe there were the 5 panjatan pak muhammed (saw) ali fatima hasan hussain (as) I dnt no how others translate this ayat I have even heard ppl say that Adam (as) knew names of certain fruit that ibliss didn't making him higher I jus say wow to that ppl come out with anything

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Imams are higher ranked then all prophets apart from our prophet (saw) it's clear by the ayat in quran were prophet ibrahim (as) was promoted to imam and also u have to jus look at history.

1. when hazrat Adam was told to leave janat he was also asked to remove is janat clothes while imam hasan (as) and hussain (as) received heavenly clothes this is a small thing I no but carry on reading

 

brother Syed_Zago I don't think I agree with you.the place where prophet Adam has lived(which is referred to in Quran as Jannat) is not the paradise which is being offered to Momenin. The paradise is the place which is being created and constructed by our activities. it is the reflection of our acts and can not be made out of nothing. and the place where prophet has lived there for a while was not the place.

to give more info Jannah has its meaning in Arabic language which means GARDEN.

so the clothes which Hazrat Adam has taken off is far different  from those clothes which was brought down to our Imams from heaven.

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brother Syed_Zago I don't think I agree with you.the place where prophet Adam has lived(which is referred to in Quran as Jannat) is not the paradise which is being offered to Momenin. The paradise is the place which is being created and constructed by our activities. it is the reflection of our acts and can not be made out of nothing. and the place where prophet has lived there for a while was not the place.

to give more info Jannah has its meaning in Arabic language which means GARDEN.

so the clothes which Hazrat Adam has taken off is far different from those clothes which was brought down to our Imams from heaven.

Well maybe u no better then me maybe I got that point wrong but u understand what Im trying to say with my other point they are just a few of many

@syad zago first off the video was very funny and entertaining, thank you for that lol. second, I said ghalut shia beliefs, if you don't know what that means all you have to do is ask your ullama. you do realize there were many shia groups with many different beliefs about the imams. noticed i always said "believed" when i refered to

My bad but we should always look at the actual hard line beliefs not the little deviations that ppl make which have no basis if ssome1 says what do shias believe and the first thing u say they take ali (as) as god then that's unfair cus that's not the true shia belief brother even thou we are from different sects we should atleast filter out the utter nonsense for each other

Otherwise I'll be telling everyone about baba street fighter lol which I no is a deviation in the sunni sect not an hard line sunni belief

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Dear friend,leave this Shia kufr for good and turn back to Islam!As a matter of fact,shias are not Muslims at all!They are idol-worshipping,jahili kufar!

U can't prove any of ur statement at all u idiot

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Syed Zago,if you happened to read something about Islam at least once in your meaningless life,you'd maybe learn it's all about Tawheed-monotheism;a concept totally antitethical to imam-worship.Process that.

You say this yet you have no single evidence we worship our imams, your all talk. While your leaders like ibn tayimiyya believe Allah has hands and sits on a throne, and that you can see him in heaven :wacko: ... This is tawheed???

 

Please! If we shia are human worshippers that dont know Allah, show us we are wrong by showing this evidence in our beliefs! Bring me one hadith where our imams say shias worship us.

Edited by PureEthics

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@syed zago (I will be using imam in the general sense so ppl please don't go crazy) First off I mean no offence, I know this may be very sensitive.  let me say I'm no ulama, just your average layman but I do want to address what you said about imam muawiya (ra) with regards to the position of ahl sunnah to the best of my knowledge.  Anything I say that is right is from Allah and mistakes are my own and may Allah(azwj) forgive me, as I only have the best intentions.  It is not strange or out of the ordinary to hear sunnis refer to imam muawiya (ra) and say (ra).  Imam muawiya (ra) was a sahabi, the opinion of ahl sunnah is that imam muawiya (ra) was wrong to go against imam ali(ra), but we do not curse him, hate him or have any animosity towards him.  The sahaba had their differences, each group believing they were upon the truth.  we leave their affair to Allah (azwj).

 

with regards to the sahaba. From the aqeedatul tahwiyyah (basic creed that unites all of ahl sunnah wal jammah):

 

we love the companions of Allah's messenger (saw).  we are not, however, extreme in our love for any one of them, Nor do we dissociate from any of them. we loathe those who loathe them, and we only mention their merits.  loving them is essential to religion, faith, and spiritual excellence, and hating them amounts to infidelity, hypocrisy, and extremism.

 

we testify, as the Messenger of Allah (saw) before us, that the ten whom he designated and assured of paradise are indeed in paradise.  His pronouncement is true, and they are abu bakr, umar, uthman, ali, talhah, al-zubayr, sa'd, sa'id, abd al-rahman b. awf, and abu ubaydah b. al-jarrah (may Allah (azwj) be please with them all).

 

whoever speaks well of the companions of the messenger of Allah (saw), his chaste wives, and his purified progeny is absolved of hypocrisy. 

 

This is the position of ahl sunnah wal jammah with regards to the sahaba.  I did not write the above to get into endless and fruitless debates and I'll avoid all of them inshAllah.

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Yes I'm not gona go down the first 3 calips or aisha road I ain't gona kick of about that I respect ur belief on these guys but we're we differ is on the prophet (saw) and his family (as) were u say that these guys did good and had there flaws but u talk about the merits I wud understand that if there flaws were normal but to wage war against imam ali to poison imam hasan refuse to bury him next to his grandfather and shoot arrows at his janaza also muaviya ordered the killing of abu bakrs son by wrapping him in a carcass and setting it on fire I've also read he had a hand in aishas death what I dnt get is how can the killer be (ra) and the victim be (ra)

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Check Rafiditerminator on youtube and you'll find plenty of Islamic evidence about Shia shirk!

 

Oh yea, im def. going to believe a crazy dude who follows those who eat peoples hearts right. o_O thats going to show me the truth, by making up lies, insults, and uploading half made cut videos that are taken out of place. Or uploading videos about people who dont even represent shia islam... yea..

 

How about this. Can you bring me evidence from our own books (legitimate sahih and agreed upon by our scholars) or articles from our actual scholars/marjah proving all that you say? Please enlighten me obey wan kanobe. Im ready to become a salafi/sunni/wahabi/maliki/shafai/hanbali/hanafi what ever. I just need you to show me my imams were wrong and your leaders are better than them.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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Oh yea, im def. going to believe a crazy dude who follows those who eat peoples hearts right. o_O thats going to show me the truth, by making up lies, insults, and uploading half made cut videos that are taken out of place. Or uploading videos about people who dont even represent shia islam... yea..

How about this. Can you bring me evidence from our own books (legitimate sahih and agreed upon by our scholars) or articles from our actual scholars/marjah proving all that you say? Please enlighten me obey wan kanobe. Im ready to become a salafi/sunni/wahabi/maliki/shafai/hanbali/hanafi what ever. I just need you to show me my imams were wrong and your leaders are better than them.

(wasalam)

My brother leave it he's jus here to derail the topic so that brother doesn't research into shiaism these ppl are a waste of time

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 I would also recommend you study the basic aqeeda of ahl sunnah wal jammah. 

 

http://www.marefatea...it-and-prophets

 

http://www.marefatea...-the-ahlul-bait

 

The website is a shia website not wahhabi propaganda against shia. 

You do realize that site have ghulat belief of the Aimmah that are ageinst their teachings?

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Dear friend,leave this Shia kufr for good and turn back to Islam!As a

matter of fact,shias are not Muslims at all!They are

idol-worshipping,jahili kufar!

Iam satisfied with my sect of ahl ul sunah and book of guidance but im always willing to learn m0re and listen m0re otherwise its also unacceptable for me that Allah's Prophets are lesser than imams. U kn0w we believe that Prophet saww will marry mariam a.s in heaven and we also believe that all prophets are equal and brothers so If s0meone says that isa a.s is lesser than imams that means Muhammad saww is also lesser in rank than imams. No offence to anyone brothers but Following quran is m0re better.

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We shia believe there were the 5 panjatan pak muhammed (saw) ali fatima

hasan hussain (as) I dnt no how others translate this ayat I have even

heard ppl say that Adam (as) knew names of certain fruit that ibliss

didn't making him higher

Ok i will ask u a simple quest, People lesser than Syidna Ali haider r.a are menti0ned in quran in detail but a pers0n who is even above than adam a.s is not mentioned? N0t even name? Sign? " And we have revealed this book with CLEAR EXPLANATI0N OF EVERYTHING" (al quran) . I believe in Allah that quran is clear about everything ! BUT Sydna Ali r.a .. How isa a.s was b0rn, its menti0ned in quran . How adam came , its also mentioned in quran . But Ali r.a being superior to all is n0t mentioned. And If that happened with kaba ( lyk u said) when sydna Ali r.a was b0rn than its making Ali r.a superi0r to Muhammad saww.

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Dear friend,leave this Shia kufr for good and turn back to Islam!As a matter of fact,shias are not Muslims at all!They are idol-worshipping,jahili kufar!

Dear Azaan Shah,

 

Please leave this bloodlusting suicide bombing homosexual cult called Wahabbis/Salafis (often loosely associated with Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'ah) and do your own research to make up your own mind on which path you want to follow. You're better off being an atheist than following this accursed creed of Ibn Tie-Me-Up 

 

Oh and Silly Boy, I got a present for you!

Banhammer_by_SrnX.jpg

Ok i will ask u a simple quest, People lesser than Syidna Ali haider r.a are menti0ned in quran in detail but a pers0n who is even above than adam a.s is not mentioned? N0t even name? Sign? " And we have revealed this book with CLEAR EXPLANATI0N OF EVERYTHING" (al quran) . I believe in Allah that quran is clear about everything ! BUT Sydna Ali r.a .. How isa a.s was b0rn, its menti0ned in quran . How adam came , its also mentioned in quran . But Ali r.a being superior to all is n0t mentioned. And If that happened with kaba ( lyk u said) when sydna Ali r.a was b0rn than its making Ali r.a superi0r to Muhammad saww.

(salam)

 

Establishing prayer (salah) is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. But is the method for it mentioned anywhere as well? No, it can only be found in Ahadith.

 

The names of other Prophets (as) are mentioned more than Muhammad (pbuh) , does that make him any less important? Of-course not...

 

Some people are mentioned in the Quran not by name, but by their actions. E.g. Aisha bint Abu Bakr and Hafsa bint Umar are mentioned in what is famously known as the Incident of the Honey (please read the first 15 verses of Surat Tahreem in which Allah Almighty Himself viciously condemns and threatens these two wives with divorce for their sin). The interpretation of this incident is unanimously agreed upon by both Shias and Sunnis (these verses contain the very much related and famous line, "O Prophet! Why do you make haraam that which We have made halaal for you?")

 

Imam Ali (as), his status and Imaamat as well as that of all the other Imams (as) is well-hinted in the Quran too. We have our sources just like you have yours.

Edited by HellHound

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Ok i will ask u a simple quest, People lesser than Syidna Ali haider r.a are menti0ned in quran in detail but a pers0n who is even above than adam a.s is not mentioned? N0t even name? Sign? " And we have revealed this book with CLEAR EXPLANATI0N OF EVERYTHING" (al quran) . I believe in Allah that quran is clear about everything ! BUT Sydna Ali r.a .. How isa a.s was b0rn, its menti0ned in quran . How adam came , its also mentioned in quran . But Ali r.a being superior to all is n0t mentioned. And If that happened with kaba ( lyk u said) when sydna Ali r.a was b0rn than its making Ali r.a superi0r to Muhammad saww.

There are so many references to maula ali (as) in the quran here's what a quick Google search jus bought up im in bed so maybe another brother can add some

http://www.imamhussain.net/Prophet0/Prophet/Ahlulbait/Imams/Imam01/body_hazrat_ali_in_Quran.html

See u can't jus read the quran for its face value u have to dig out when and why the ayat was sent then u get the true meaning the event of maubila ghadeer when hazrat ali paid the poor rate while bowing

Verily, verily, your guardian (WALI) is (none else but) God and His Apostle

(Muhammad) and those who believe: those who establish prayer and pay the

poor-rate, while they be (even) bowing down (in prayer)."

Remember hazrat musa and isa (as) mentioned more then our prophet (saw) in quran doesn't make them higher ranked and no ali (as) isn't greater then muhammed (saw) ali did muhammeds(saw) bayt and if u look at hadiths ali always says I'm jus a servant of rasoolallah (saw)

Hadiths teach us everything the true context of the quran the way to pray isn't mentioned in quran the kalima isn't many other things that are important aren't mentioned it doesn't mean we regard them unnecessary but ali (as) is everywhere in quran jus open the heart and look brother

Our kalima is on the quran by the way I jus posted the ayat lol

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@hel h0und w.salam

1st _Atleast the word ' salat' is mentioned thats y prophet explained to us but I cant find the word 'imamat' in quran anywhere thats y prophet never ever ordered us to follow them.

2nd_ Brother, Aisha and hafsa r.a are clearly mentioned as the 'wives' just like zulaikha, the wife of the king, like the c0mpanions of yousuf a.s as 'c0mpani0ns of yusuf', abu bakar r.a as a 'c0mpani0n', hajrah a.s and sara a.s are menti0ned by their relati0ns with prophets ..but i cnt find anywhere ' cousin of prophet' theres no such indicati0n towards Ali r.a in quran any where.

3rd_ "AND WE HAVE REVEALED THIS QURAN WITH CLEAR EXPLANATI0N OF EVERYTHING" (al quran)

Quran is perfect, c0mplete , clear and simple. I d0nt think that my lord is too cruel that he will leave me with some hints and will hold me accountable for that which he didnt even ordered. Prophet didnt ever Pressed us about imams n0r did Allah. 'farz' which is not mentioned in quran ,its absolutely not the part of islam!

@syed zego . dear iam always learning with open heart. I w0nder about that ayah that if it was for only Ali r.a than y Allah used plural language ' follow them ' ? Y n0t ' follow him' ? .. And Allah is above grammatical mistakes. U say Ali r.a is every where in quran and whole quran is about ahle bait but I think different becuz the w0rd ' ahle bait' is used for the wives of prophet only. I read the background of quranic verses but i cant find any where that its about the things u r talking about . Quran is the order to obey Allah and obey his messenger, believe Allah believe his messengers, Angels, bo0ks, creatures , EVERYTHING that is to believe is CLEARLY menti0ned but not even single verse to believe on imams. B/w my quest is n0t answered , pers0n above than our father adam a.s isnt quoted ?

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^So you want Allah to spoon-feed you everything on a silver platter????? 

 

There's more than enough references and mention of Imam Ali (as) in the Quran for anyone who wants to know. E.g. the verse about how Imam Ali (as) gave Zakaat to an old man during Sujood (see Syed_Zago's post).

 

It's all about context.The same way we prove that the companion in the cave refers to Abu Bakr, the same way we prove that all hints are pointing to Imam Ali (as) as well as his pure descendants (as) .

 

Like I said, do some research and make up your mind. The Declaration of Ghadir cannot be more obvious when one studies it from ahadith (both Shia and Sunni sources)

 

EDIT: You said Imaamat is not mentioned in the Quran even once... Now I truly hope you said this out of ignorance because this concept is explicitly mentioned in Surah Baqarah when Prophet Ibrahim (as) made was appointed as an Imam by Allah...

Edited by HellHound

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