Unsure

[shiamehdi14]

Would it be fair to say that the God of the modern Christians is not the same as Allah. Because after altercations to this religion, now they say Jesus (pbuh)  was the son of God or even he is God. Na3zubilllah

[Mika'iil]

i have many christian friends , and they always had this idea or belief that God is one but has shown his self as 3 characters , the human " Jesus " ( the son )  , and holy spirit ( the same god but a spiritual part of him )  and the main soul ( the father ) .. it's like he split his self or gave birth to himself

that's why whenever u ask them they say either jesus (pbuh)  is Allah but the human part of him  , or the son of Allah

[aliasghark]

There are Christians who don't believe Jesus to be God or son of God: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

 

Unitarians believe that main-line Christianity does not adhere to strict monotheism but that they do by maintaining that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself.[2] They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, and that his teachings did not suggest the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority but not necessarily the divinity of Jesus. Their theology is thus opposed to the trinitarian theology of other Christian denominations.

 

Unitarian Christology can be divided according to whether Jesus is believed to have had a pre-human existence. Both forms maintain that God is one being and one "person"and that Jesus is the (or a) Son of God, but generally not God himself.[24]

[Son of Placid]

 

There are Christians who don't believe Jesus to be God or son of God: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

 

Unitarians believe that main-line Christianity does not adhere to strict monotheism but that they do by maintaining that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself.[2] They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, and that his teachings did not suggest the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority but not necessarily the divinity of Jesus. Their theology is thus opposed to the trinitarian theology of other Christian denominations.

 

Unitarian Christology can be divided according to whether Jesus is believed to have had a pre-human existence. Both forms maintain that God is one being and one "person"and that Jesus is the (or a) Son of God, but generally not God himself.[24]

 

Pretty much, yes.

You'll also find most Christians can't really explain trinity to themselves let alone anyone else so they go on, but keep silent doubts. Don't forget, Jesus as anything less than God in a Trinitarian view is blasphemy. Nobody wants to do that...

 

Allah is Allah regardless what people decide to believe.

[Sumerian]

What about Mormons?

[Son of Placid]

What about Mormons?

I haven't studied them a lot but from what I understand they have a few spare gods, and...they don't drink coffee.

[notme]

What about Mormons?

As I understand it, Mormons are trinitarian.

[shiamehdi14]

I thought Jahova's witnesses (sorry if spelled wrong) were one of the only Christian sects that know Jesus (pbuh) not to be God or his son

[a human]

What about Mormons?

(Bismillah)

http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/2009/05/do-mormons-believe-in-the-trinity/

[shreek]

I haven't studied them a lot but from what I understand they have a few spare gods, and...they don't drink coffee.

 

yes and You TOO can be a God, according to them.

 

When I debated them a few months ago under my carport I apologised I could not offer them

1 - Coffee

2 - Tea

3 - Alcohol

4 - Cigarettes

5 - Argileh

6 - Coke (yes some within the group consider fizzy drinks haram as they may contain caffeine)

[orthodox1234]

Would it be fair to say that the God of the modern Christians is not the same as Allah. Because after altercations to this religion, now they say Jesus (pbuh)  was the son of God or even he is God. Na3zubilllah

That is correct, there is no way of reconciling the dogma of the Blessed Trinity to the Islamic deity Allah. God the Father cannot be taken alone, considering our creeds, catechisms, and sacred scripture. We cannot accept the deity of one person before recognizing the deity of the other two persons in the Trinity. It is also important to note that there are various sects, and false Christianities which masquearade as a Christianity of sort but deny these central tenets. Whether they like it or not, the unanimous testimony of all Christian traditions has been to confess one God in Trinity. There is no option, this is the catholic faith we confess from Roman Catholic, Orthodox to virtually every Protestant tradition. Those who believe otherwise do not confess the same religion, nor are they accepted as orthodox. 

Edited February 12, 2014 by orthodox1234

[placid]

Hi Shiam,

Quote from Post 1:

Would it be fair to say that the God of the modern Christians is not the same as Allah. Because after altercations to this religion, now they say Jesus was the son of God or even he is God. Na3zubilllah

And quote from Post 2:

i have many christian friends , and they always had this idea or belief that God is one but has shown his self as 3 characters , the human " Jesus " ( the son ) , and holy spirit ( the same god but a spiritual part of him ) and the main soul (the father ) .. it's like he split his self or gave birth to himself

That's why whenever u ask them they say either jesus is Allah but the human part of him , or the son of Allah

Then quoted from Orthodox in Post 11:

There is no way of reconciling the dogma of the Blessed Trinity to the Islamic deity Allah. God the Father cannot be taken alone, considering our creeds, catechisms, and sacred scripture.

Response: --- This pretty much draws the line that causes the ‘unsureness’ of what to believe.

I have no argument with those who have firm Faith in God and live by what they have learned. --- Salvation does not depend on various doctrines, or Church Traditions, --- but Salvation is by Faith in God, and in serving God in the ‘good works,’ that grow out of our Faith in Him.

--- For Christians, salvation depends on our Faith in God, and acceptance of Jesus as our Savior, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in following His teaching, as it says in John 5:

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

In Post 2, Mika- says, “belief that God is one but has shown his self as 3 characters” and then, “it's like he split his self or gave birth to himself.”

--- (This is a slight misunderstanding, as Jesus was born as a human.)

There were three from the beginning, as we see in Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

So in the beginning was God. --- (And since God was in the beginning, there is only One God) --- We refer to God as the Father of all, as in this verse in James 1:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.”

--- And it says, “In the beginning God created. --- (It doesn’t say how He created, but He didn’t act alone, but it said there was ‘action.’)

2 And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

--- So the Spirit of God was of God, and started life in the sea. --- However he Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus on earth, while God was always in heaven.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light” --- Who was He speaking to?

When God said, Let there “BE.” --- It involves the ‘Action and power, of creating,’ --- as in the Quran where it says in Surah 19:35 --- ‘When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.’ --- So, the Word (Logos) ‘the creative power of God’ brings ‘light’ into being. --- So, in the Quran where Word is used with a Capital W, it refers to the Word (Logos) from heaven.

Also, it mentions the Word in relationship to creation, in John 1:

1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

--- So this Word, which was also of God, was ‘in the beginning with God,’ --- and it was through the Word (Logos, the power of creating) that all things were made.

So, In the beginning there were the three, God the Father, --- the Word (Logos), --- and the Holy Spirit of God.

And this is verified in 1 John 5:

7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

There is only One God, --- but He has Manifested Himself in different ways.

--- So, here is the wonderful mystery. --- But there is more in the Quran, so we could look at that later.

Placid

[placid]

Hi Shiam,

To continue in identifying God and His Manifestations to mankind, we can look in the Quran, --- which you are no doubt more familiar with, and see if it verifies the Three from heaven, --- God the Father, --- the Word (Logos, “Be” and it is), --- and the Holy Spirit.

When it uses the Word with a capital W, it refers to the Word, (Logos). Surah 3:

45 When the angel said, 'Mary, God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; high honored shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God.

46 He shall speak to men in the cradle, and of age, and righteous he shall be.'

47 'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, 'God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.

--- This agrees with what was written in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 1:

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Jesus was CALLED the Son of God in the NT, but He was the Son of Mary, the holy Son that God gave her by saying, “Be” and it is.

Being born of humanity He was not God, but He was God’s Revelation and Sign to the world. Surah 21:

91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a ‘Sign’ for all peoples.

--- So, what was this 'Sign' to the world? --- It continues from 47 above in Surah 3:

48 "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "I have come to you, with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a ‘Sign’ for you if ye did believe;"

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me."

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

Notice, it says 3 times that Jesus came as a ‘Sign’ to mankind.

Luke said to Mary, --- “The Holy Spirit shall come upon you.”

Surah 21 says, --- “We breathed into her of Our Spirit.” --- That is the same Holy Spirit from heaven.

--- Neither the Word nor the Holy Spirit could be seen by the human eye, so Jesus was the Manifestation of both the Word, and the Holy Spirit in a visible human body. --- And He was the ‘Sign’ for all mankind, --- and He said above:

51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

Surah 3:45, --- “God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary.” --- So the Word (Logos) indwelt Jesus, --- who is called the Messiah some 8 times in the Quran.

--- When we check this further we see that the Word, indwelling Jesus, continued God’s power to create and to do miracles through Jesus. Notice this:

49 --- "I have come to you, with a ‘Sign’ from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken (raise) the dead, by God's leave.”

--- So, in these few verses, we have the Manifestation of the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit, on earth, --- and God remained in heaven.

(There is more to consider in the Quran so I hope you will ponder these verses.)

Placid

[baqar]

That is correct, there is no way of reconciling the dogma of the Blessed Trinity to the Islamic deity Allah. God the Father cannot be taken alone, considering our creeds, catechisms, and sacred scripture. We cannot accept the deity of one person before recognizing the deity of the other two persons in the Trinity.

 

It is good perhaps to know what the differences are but perhaps not so good to harp upon them. I think God will be happier if we try to bond with our fellow-men regardless of their beliefs.  

 

Otherwise look at what is happening in the world today. Some extremist Muslims do not like Shia beliefs. So they have declared Shias as heretics and are bent upon reducing their numbers to near-extinction in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and wherever possible.

 

The scope of their madness is expected to widen in the years to come.

[CLynn]

It is good perhaps to know what the differences are but perhaps not so good to harp upon them. I think God will be happier if we try to bond with our fellow-men regardless of their beliefs.  

 

* like

[IloveImamHussain]

There is no way of reconciling the dogma of the Blessed Trinity to the Islamic deity Allah. 

 

And can you reconcile the dogma of the Trinity with any other religion on the planet? 

[Son of Placid]

From the time I worshipped with a Muslim friend I knew we worshipped the same God.

Many can try to confuse me, but cannot take away what God gave us that day.

[placid]

Hi Shiam,

To continue from post 13, I want to add a little to show that the Holy Spirit was with Jesus on earth as witnessed in the verses in these Surahs:

2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy Spirit.

2:253 These messengers; we blessed some of them more than others. For example, GOD spoke to one, and we raised some of them to higher ranks. And we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit.

5:110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.

--- (This recounts the kind of miracles that Jesus did in the Gospels.)

16:102 Say: The Holy Spirit hath delivered it (the revelation) from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

21:91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.

(And this is where Muhammad was given this same Holy Spirit from God.):

42:52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.

--- While some Muslims have suggested that the Holy Spirit was Gabriel, that is a wrong concept because Gabriel was a holy angel from God, he was not the Holy Spirit of God. --- And the evidence is here:

In Luke 1:26 it says “The angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin, whose name was Mary.

So Gabriel came to Mary to announce that she would have a son, and that she would call Him Jesus.

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel (Gabriel) answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

--- (If Gabriel had been the Holy Spirit, then he would have said, “I will come upon you and impregnate you,” --- But he said, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you.”)

In Surah 19:19 He (Gabriel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

The word ‘apostle’ means, ‘one sent forth,’ --- so Gabriel was just the messenger to Mary, --- and some 600 years later became the messenger of God to Muhammad.

--- Now I want to ask you? Do you acknowledge that the Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit both came down from heaven to indwell Jesus, as the Quran says?

We agree, there is One God, but that God has been Manifested in different ways.

--- Do you agree with this, or are you still ‘unsure’?

Placid