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Why Not Only Follow Quran?

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Salam Alayakom dear brothers and sisters!

 

I just want to know why we can't ONLY follow the Quran? Why do we follow hadeeths aswell? And how can we be so so sure about the hadeeths when it's written by man?

 

I am having a discussion with a sunni who says that he only follows the Quran. 

 

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Salam Alayakom dear brothers and sisters!

 

I just want to know why we can't ONLY follow the Quran? Why do we follow hadeeths aswell? And how can we be so so sure about the hadeeths when it's written by man?

 

I am having a discussion with a sunni who says that he only follows the Quran. 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Because Allah(swt) commanded us to follow the prophet(pbuh), and that Islam is incomplete if you follow only the Noble Quran by itself.

 

"O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4: 59)."

 

I want you to show your friend this noble verse and let him ponder over it. Allah(swt) is stating here, that whenever the Muslims differ with them selves on any issue that they face, then they should always refer back to the prophet(pbuh) for answers. If you're friend is facing an issue, how will he refer back to the prophet(pbuh) when he is not physically present in our age and time? It is also very silly to believe that this Aya, was only addressed to only the Muslim generation that lived with the prophet(pbuh), when the Noble Quran itself is entirely revealed for humanity to follow and act upon. 

 

Moreover, the only way to day to refer back to the prophet(pbuh) today, when he is not physically present in our age, is by referring to the authentic Ahadith because that is the only source available to us today to reach the prophet(pbuh).

 

Ahadith were written by man, yes, but was Islam also not established by a man? If you are going to reject a book of Ahadith simply because it is written by a man, then what drives you to accept the Noble Quran as being authentic if it was brought down to us a man as well? I could play the devil's advocate and argue of why God himself would not bring down the Noble Quran himself instead of trusting men to send it to humanity on his behalf. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, no matter what angle you look at Islam, the truth still holds true with the Quran and Sunnah of the prophet(pbuh) and his Ahlulbayt(as).

 

Moreover, with all due respect to your friend, but he is foolish to simply reject Ahadith out of ignorance, especially when the science itself is very deep and complex. 

 

I advice your friend to give Hadith a chance if he is sincere enough and try to look at it's sciences from a non-Quranist viewpoint. 

 

 

May Allah(swt) guide him.

 

(wasalam)

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Wa Alaykum Assalam wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh

 

We as Muslims - submitters- were given no permission to pick and choose after a law been down

It is not fitting for a believing man or a believing woman to have an option in their affairs when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Rasool; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Rasool has indeed strayed into a clearly wrong path.
33:36
 
So the question should be, is there a proof that what prophet said and did should be followed? the answer is yes, and the answer is in the Quran itself
Hashr:7, Anfal:34,  Nisa:65, Al Imran:31, Nahl:44.
It is Allah's order that we should follow what prophet said, more than that, Allah's in Quran stated that His messenger words are not opinions but divine revelation 
and neither does he speak out of his own desire:
that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired -
Najm3-4
 
Prophet was not oblivious to what will happen after him, that many people will lie and fabricate hadith, he stated that clearly to people in Madinah" There will be many liars after me who claim that I said what I did not,whoever tell lies about me, he is reserving his seat in hell"
 
So prophet was aware of this dilemma that many Muslims are in today, he knew that a day will come where it will be hard to tell which are prophet's words and which are not. But Quran said something about the character of our prophet 
There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful.

9:128

 

If he knew and he cared, then he should have done something? After all he is the last prophet and people would not have another chance to consult a connection between them and Allah, their creator.

 

Prophet actually was merciful and taught us that Quran alone is not the way, he also told us about the pure source to reach his sunnah, he said "Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl al-Bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al-­Kawthar on the Day of Judgment)."

 

​Prophet said (and his words are wahi as per Quran words, his words must be followed as per Quran commands) that to save yourself hold on 2 things, he did not say hold on one of them or either of them but hold on the tow of them "Book of Allah and his household"

 

I hope that I was beneficial.

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Salam Alayakom dear brothers and sisters!

 

I just want to know why we can't ONLY follow the Quran? Why do we follow hadeeths aswell? And how can we be so so sure about the hadeeths when it's written by man?

 

I am having a discussion with a sunni who says that he only follows the Quran. 

 

Bismillah Ta'aala

 

We have two kinds of ahadith, some hadiths fall into the category of what is called qat'i and another is called dhanni. The former refers to the kinds of ahadith in which the preponderant evidence results in historical certainty. In other words, it gives us certainty that the Prophet (s) and the Imams (as) said what they said (like the contents of Sahifat as-Sajjadiyah). The second category are probabilistic and by following those that give us relative confidence even if probabilistic, we are free from Allah's punishment on Yawm al-Qiyama if we happen to have gotten it wrong. What this means is that we have exhausted every effort in trying to get as close as we can to the hukm of Allah instead of our own opinions and desires; and it is this niyya and effort that is rewarded to us by Allah (s w t)  as it encompasses and expresses true devotion in wanting to submit to Allah (s w t). 

 

So for example, we know the basis of our 12ver Shi'i madhhab is derived from the qat'iyaat which among other things includes many of our core doctrines on tawheed, nubuwwa, imamah, akhlaq and shari'ah (e.g. not killing the old, sick, children and women during war; the tahreem on the triple talaq at once etc.). In fact, many of the miracles of the Prophet (s) can be placed in this category, like the splitting of the moon which gives us more historical certainty than the existence of the Roman emperor Caesar.

 

Beware of this Qur'an-only approach. It is the trick of the Shayateen to get people away from obedience to our one and only true Rabb (Lord) and to taking false idols as our lords instead (e.g. our desires and whims; the khulafa, White/Western mythologies like liberalism, neo-liberalism, secularism, human rights, modern individualism, gender equality etc. etc.)

Edited by Hannibal

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If you look at the sun directley, you can go blind! So the Quran is the sun [Edited], Now looking at the moon the light is softer like, it gives no blindness and adds sweetness to fruite and fragrance in flowers. Now the Quran is like the sun, and Ali "a.s" is like the moon, so he worked for the jew ( horticulture ).

Edited by inshaAllah
Inappropriate/fasle quote

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If you look at the sun directley, you can go blind! So the Quran is the sun (kill a jew where ever you see him), Now looking at the moon the light is softer like, it gives no blindness and adds sweetness to fruite and fragrance in flowers. Now the Quran is like the sun, and Ali "a.s" is like the moon, so he worked for the jew ( horticulture ).

that is a terrible explanation

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Salam Alayakom dear brothers and sisters!

 

I just want to know why we can't ONLY follow the Quran? Why do we follow hadeeths aswell? And how can we be so so sure about the hadeeths when it's written by man?

 

I am having a discussion with a sunni who says that he only follows the Quran. 

 

The Qur'an is an ambiguous book. It doesn't even tell you how to pray.

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Salam Alayakom dear brothers and sisters!

 

I just want to know why we can't ONLY follow the Quran? Why do we follow hadeeths aswell? And how can we be so so sure about the hadeeths when it's written by man?

 

I am having a discussion with a sunni who says that he only follows the Quran. 

Salamun Alaykum. Just ask him why he says his fajr prayer in 2 cycles (rak'as) not 4? Where in the Quran he can find how to perform ghusl? how to clean his impure clothe? how to perform tawaf and sa'y? how to ...?

BTW, I disagree with Robin Hood in asserting that "The Qur'an is an ambiguous book". Quran is a book of guidance and may not be called as an ambiguous book. However, it does not mean that Quran includes all the details for which we have to refer to narrations. Of course, the benefits of narrations are far beyond such details and religous rulings.

As for your 2nd question it should be mentioned that only those hadeeths narrated by reliable narrators are relied on. If such narratiins may not be reliable then how your Sunni firend regards the text of Quran as reliable? I am not comparing Quran and narrations. What I mean is that if no text is to be relied on even those narrated by trustworthy narrators then no text can be reliable. Add to this the fact that there is a special field of knowledge known as 'ilm al-rijal which has a critical study of the transmitters of narrations.

 

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The Qur'an is an ambiguous book. It doesn't even tell you how to pray.

 

Salam, I'm picking up on this for discussions sake. I see people use this argument a lot and it always baffles me somewhat. Its based on the supposition that there needs to be 1 specific way to pray, which is a hadith based notion. The Quran doesnt make this claim, so for a Quranist it isnt a problem, just like it isnt for Christians. Before i came to Islam it hadnt occurred to me that there should be 1 strict way for everyone to pray and its not at all obvious why that would need ot be the case. If you want to pray communally and in unison its helpful to have an agreed upon way in which you will do it, but thats a different notion than saying there should be only 1 way to do it that is acceptable.

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Salam, I'm picking up on this for discussions sake. I see people use this argument a lot and it always baffles me somewhat. Its based on the supposition that there needs to be 1 specific way to pray, which is a hadith based notion. The Quran doesnt make this claim, so for a Quranist it isnt a problem, just like it isnt for Christians. Before i came to Islam it hadnt occurred to me that there should be 1 strict way for everyone to pray and its not at all obvious why that would need ot be the case. If you want to pray communally and in unison its helpful to have an agreed upon way in which you will do it, but thats a different notion than saying there should be only 1 way to do it that is acceptable.

 

First off, I also dont agree with the notion that the quran is ambiguous.The quran's claims over and over again: Obey Allah and the Prophet. The quran also claims that only certain people have the truth to the meaning of this quran (tafsir). The quran also claims there are decisive and allegorical verses which implies there is more to the quran then it seems. Allah also mentions the prophet has a right over the believers than the believers have on them selves which clearly denotes the notion of Sunnah. By mere logic there must be tradition since Islam is a way of life (quran), and clearly since the quran does not go deep into every single matter, for a quranist it means there are clear contradictions. We also must take note, where did this quran come from? Out of the mouth of the prophet himself. He taught mankind this religion. It is also clear there must have been issues people wanted to resolve with the prophet and these were not answers included within the quran and by the quran we must take the prophets word as God's law, thus it becomes tradition naturally. Therefore, for those who do say only quran, they are only fooling themselves and truth is clear from error. Their sense of morality, ethics, etiquette, jurisprudence will be transparent and relative because they will never have a concise answer. Thus from this you must conclude Allah is not all guiding since he has left man with ambiguity in regards to the quran only concept. Islam becomes a moot belief system by this, and clearly atheism would logically demolish this belief concept.

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Salam, I'm picking up on this for discussions sake. I see people use this argument a lot and it always baffles me somewhat. Its based on the supposition that there needs to be 1 specific way to pray, which is a hadith based notion. The Quran doesnt make this claim, so for a Quranist it isnt a problem, just like it isnt for Christians. Before i came to Islam it hadnt occurred to me that there should be 1 strict way for everyone to pray and its not at all obvious why that would need ot be the case. If you want to pray communally and in unison its helpful to have an agreed upon way in which you will do it, but thats a different notion than saying there should be only 1 way to do it that is acceptable.

  Always remember that you are just a servant. You are one of many and you are discardable !

If you are told to pray like the prophet then you should pray like the prophet, not any other way you like. If prophet said that we can pray in any way we like then we may but since he did not say that then we shouldn't . 

This is the simplest meaning of Muslim, a submitter! If you fail to submit to a simple order like praying according to prophet teachings, how could you call yourself a submitter?

Imam Musa passed by a house where the sound of music was coming loud, he asked the slave girl who came out of the house" Who is the owner of this house? Is he a slave or a free man?" The slave girl said "A free man" Imam Musa said "True, for if he was a slave to Allah , he wouldn't have done that"

The slave girl told her owner about the conversation, the man repented immediately .

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First off, I also dont agree with the notion that the quran is ambiguous.The quran's claims over and over again: Obey Allah and the Prophet. The quran also claims that only certain people have the truth to the meaning of this quran (tafsir). The quran also claims there are decisive and allegorical verses which implies there is more to the quran then it seems. Allah also mentions the prophet has a right over the believers than the believers have on them selves which clearly denotes the notion of Sunnah. By mere logic there must be tradition since Islam is a way of life (quran), and clearly since the quran does not go deep into every single matter, for a quranist it means there are clear contradictions. We also must take note, where did this quran come from? Out of the mouth of the prophet himself. He taught mankind this religion. It is also clear there must have been issues people wanted to resolve with the prophet and these were not answers included within the quran and by the quran we must take the prophets word as God's law, thus it becomes tradition naturally. Therefore, for those who do say only quran, they are only fooling themselves and truth is clear from error. Their sense of morality, ethics, etiquette, jurisprudence will be transparent and relative because they will never have a concise answer. Thus from this you must conclude Allah is not all guiding since he has left man with ambiguity in regards to the quran only concept. Islam becomes a moot belief system by this, and clearly atheism would logically demolish this belief concept.

 

Im not sure why you quoted me when you posted this, as i was addressing a specific point about salat that Mr Hood brought up. Okay for arguments sake:

I agree that the Quran isnt very ambiguous either, it says certain things and not others, its very decisive in that sense.

Obeying the Prophet(saw) is a damn site easier when he's standing in front of you than hundreds of years after his death. When establishing the first community its easy to see why obeying the Prophets(saw) instructions and guidance would be a very good idea, as unity of purpose would help stabilise the community and unite them against those attempting to squash the ummah before it was established. Although it seems perfectly natural that people would want to immitate the Prophet(saw) as the leader of the community and guide, its not obvious why there is an assumption that this immitation of salat is the only way to pray - its supposes that every single thing the Prophet(saw) did was relevant to practicing the religion 'correctly'. It certainly shows that it was allowed, but it doesnt automatically follow that it is the only way it can be done. You havent established from the Quran why there needs to be a very particular way to pray and why this very particular way to pray would be the only way acceptable to Allah.

You have the assumption that everything needs to be outlined in detail and there can only be one specific way to do something, even when the Quran doesnt give that indication, and only one way to understand in order for it to make sense and be just and that this is necessary for Allah to have done His job correctly (in your judgement). If the Quran doesnt do that why would a Quranist have that assumption?

The Qurans character is inherently flexible in many instances - why is that do you think? there are many instances where the Quran could say what hadith says in less words and with more rigidity and less room for differing interpretation (hijab is a good example). The assumption is that to be a Muslim there is a very specific, inflexible right and wrong way to do almost everything - including salat. Where does this assumption come from? why is it necessary? if contexts change and contexts determine how people experience their realities, why would we assume that there should be a fixed and inflexible way to be a Muslim? this notion appears to contradict reality. 

I dont see the Quran contradicting itself. Would you give examples?

  Always remember that you are just a servant. You are one of many and you are discardable !

If you are told to pray like the prophet then you should pray like the prophet, not any other way you like. If prophet said that we can pray in any way we like then we may but since he did not say that then we shouldn't . 

This is the simplest meaning of Muslim, a submitter! If you fail to submit to a simple order like praying according to prophet teachings, how could you call yourself a submitter?

Imam Musa passed by a house where the sound of music was coming loud, he asked the slave girl who came out of the house" Who is the owner of this house? Is he a slave or a free man?" The slave girl said "A free man" Imam Musa said "True, for if he was a slave to Allah , he wouldn't have done that"

The slave girl told her owner about the conversation, the man repented immediately .

 

This thread is about the Quranists approach and i picked up on the point that people often make about salat. Unless the Quran tells them they shoud pray like the Prophet(saw) why would they assume that that is necessary? especially when hadithists cant even agree on what that very specific way of praying was?

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Im not sure why you quoted me when you posted this, as i was addressing a specific point about salat that Mr Hood brought up. Okay for arguments sake:

I agree that the Quran isnt very ambiguous either, it says certain things and not others, its very decisive in that sense.

Obeying the Prophet(saw) is a damn site easier when he's standing in front of you than hundreds of years after his death. When establishing the first community its easy to see why obeying the Prophets(saw) instructions and guidance would be a very good idea, as unity of purpose would help stabilise the community and unite them against those attempting to squash the ummah before it was established. Although it seems perfectly natural that people would want to immitate the Prophet(saw) as the leader of the community and guide, its not obvious why there is an assumption that this immitation of salat is the only way to pray - its supposes that every single thing the Prophet(saw) did was relevant to practicing the religion 'correctly'. It certainly shows that it was allowed, but it doesnt automatically follow that it is the only way it can be done. You havent established from the Quran why there needs to be a very particular way to pray and why this very particular way to pray would be the only way acceptable to Allah.

You have the assumption that everything needs to be outlined in detail and there can only be one specific way to do something, even when the Quran doesnt give that indication, and only one way to understand in order for it to make sense and be just and that this is necessary for Allah to have done His job correctly (in your judgement). If the Quran doesnt do that why would a Quranist have that assumption?

The Qurans character is inherently flexible in many instances - why is that do you think? there are many instances where the Quran could say what hadith says in less words and with more rigidity and less room for differing interpretation (hijab is a good example). The assumption is that to be a Muslim there is a very specific, inflexible right and wrong way to do almost everything - including salat. Where does this assumption come from? why is it necessary? if contexts change and contexts determine how people experience their realities, why would we assume that there should be a fixed and inflexible way to be a Muslim? this notion appears to contradict reality. 

I dont see the Quran contradicting itself. Would you give examples?

 

This thread is about the Quranists approach and i picked up on the point that people often make about salat. Unless the Quran tells them they shoud pray like the Prophet(saw) why would they assume that that is necessary? especially when hadithists cant even agree on what that very specific way of praying was?

You are the one merely making assumptions. First of all, the quran isnt referential. It is a book to be used in all times, present and future. It is very clear that this verses commanded in the quran were obligatory on the prophet himself. Therefore, to know how to pray we must look and see how the prophet prayed. Otherwise, you are just telling Allah you know better then what He commanded. Truth is clear from error, but it is not feed to us. It is part of life to seek the truth.

 

Ill let the quran answer you:

 

(bismillah)

 

 

"ذلك الكتاب لا ریب فیه هدی للمتقین"[2]

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

 

"هذا بصائر من ربكم و هدی و رحمة لقوم یوقنون"[3]

These are clear proofs from your Lord and a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

 

"هذا بصائر للنّاس و هدی و رحمة لقوم یوقنون"

These are clear evidences to men and a Guidance and Mercy to those of assured Faith.

 

"... قد جاءكم مّن الله نور و كتاب مّبین، یهدی به الله من اتّبع رضوانه سبل السّلام و یخرجهم مّن الظّلمات الی النّور باذنه و یهدیهم الی صراط مّستقیم"[4]

"Indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah; With it Allah guides him who will follow His pleasure into the ways of safety and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His will and guides them to the right path."

 

بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالزُّبُرِ ۗ وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ {44}

With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

 

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ {132}

And obey Allah and the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

 

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ {32}

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَا تَوَلَّوْا عَنْهُ وَأَنْتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ {20}

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ قَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُونَ {21}

O you who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear.

And be not like those who said, We hear, and they did not obey.

 

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَا تَنَازَعُوا فَتَفْشَلُوا وَتَذْهَبَ رِيحُكُمْ ۖ وَاصْبِرُوا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ {46}

And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.

 

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُوا ۚ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ {92}

And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger.

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوا أَعْمَالَكُمْ {33}

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not make your deeds of no effect.

 

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ {12}

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our Messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message).

 

 

مَا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَىٰ فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَالْيَتَامَىٰ وَالْمَسَاكِينِ وَابْنِ السَّبِيلِ كَيْ لَا يَكُونَ دُولَةً بَيْنَ الْأَغْنِيَاءِ مِنْكُمْ ۚ وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا ۚ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ {7}

Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):

 

 

تِلْكَ حُدُودُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا ۚ وَذَٰلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ {13}

وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَهُ يُدْخِلْهُ نَارًا خَالِدًا فِيهَا وَلَهُ عَذَابٌ مُهِينٌ {14}

These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.

And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement.

 

 

 

Oh Allah if a shia like me prays a certain way and a quranist believes prayer to be a certain way, which way is it right? Oh Allah, I thought this deen was clear. Oh Allah what about this verse? But wait? The prophet isnt here? Allah how can you tell me to refer the issue to the prophet when he isnt here? How can you say that which isnt possible? What Allah? The prophet and his imams kept this sunnah you speak of for this exact purpose? Indeed, this religion is haq!

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59}

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

 

 

لَا يَمَسُّهُ إِلَّا الْمُطَهَّرُونَ {79}

"I do not need to swear by the setting of the stars which is indeed a great oath if only you knew it - -that this is an honorable Quran preserved in a hidden Book which no one can touch (understand it) it except the purified ones, because this Quran is a revelation from the Lord of the Universe."[13]

 

 

الَّذِینَ فِی قُلُوبِهِمْ زَیْغٌ فَیَتَّبِعُونَ ما تَشابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَ ابْتِغاءَ تَأْوِیلِهِ وَ ما یَعْلَمُ تَأْوِیلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِی الْعِلْمِ فَأَمَّا

"Then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity, they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation, but none knows its interpretation except Allah And those who are firmly rooted in knowledge."[16]

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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^ Nothing you have posted from the Quran has established that there is a specifc way to pray, that this specific way to pray is necessary or offered any explanation as to why is would be necessary.  

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^ Nothing you have posted from the Quran has established that there is a specifc way to pray, that this specific way to pray is necessary or offered any explanation as to why is would be necessary.

 

 

Let me ask you something. Did the prophet pray?

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Let me ask you something. Did the prophet pray?

hehe, it is astonishing how people work hard to change a religion that been around for 1400 years, with all the differences between sects, it has been agreed upon that we should pray like how prophet prayed. 

It is a math logic but suddenly a math logic is irrelevant to religion when it suits some people.

Quran gave 2 orders : perform prayers & follow prophet. A kid who plays treasure island quest game can figure out the answer.

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People who say the the quran is ambigious have absolutely no relation with it

 

Are your sure about that, because i know someone who is The Commander Of Faithfuls , and he says:

 

77 و من وصية له ع لعبد الله بن العباس [أيضا] لما بعثه للاحتجاج على الخوارج‏

لا تخاصمهم بالقرآن فإن القرآن حمال‏ ذو وجوه‏ تقول و يقولون ... و لكن حاججهم بالسنة فإنهم لن يجدوا عنها محيصا

 

Letter 77: Instructions to Abdullah b.
Abbas
Instructions given to `Abdullah ibn al-`Abbas, at the time of his being deputed to confront the Kharijites
 
Do not argue with them by the Qur'an because the Qur'an has many faces. You would say your own and they would say their own; but argue with them by the sunnah (ahadeeth), because they cannot find escape from it.
 

(wasalam)

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Let me ask you something. Did the prophet pray?

 

Yes.

 

 

hehe, it is astonishing how people work hard to change a religion that been around for 1400 years, with all the differences between sects, it has been agreed upon that we should pray like how prophet prayed. 

It is a math logic but suddenly a math logic is irrelevant to religion when it suits some people.

Quran gave 2 orders : perform prayers & follow prophet. A kid who plays treasure island quest game can figure out the answer.

 

The irony being that this is one of the key areas where sunnis and shias dont agree. So either you believe you dont have to pray in a specific way, or you believe that Sunni's prayers are not accepted or answered by the all merciful Allah who didnt put a method of prayer in His Quran, thus leaving it to the unstable and unprotected process of ahadith making and survival in order for this most intrinsic and necessary Islamic obligation to be determined.

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Yes.

 

 

 

The irony being that this is one of the key areas where sunnis and shias dont agree. So either you believe you dont have to pray in a specific way, or you believe that Sunni's prayers are not accepted or answered by the all merciful Allah who didnt put a method of prayer in His Quran, thus leaving it to the unstable and unprotected process of ahadith making and survival in order for this most intrinsic and necessary Islamic obligation to be determined.

 

They agree in principle, as far as the details go, the shia and sunni prayers are mostly the same.  

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Yes.

 

 

 

The irony being that this is one of the key areas where sunnis and shias dont agree. So either you believe you dont have to pray in a specific way, or you believe that Sunni's prayers are not accepted or answered by the all merciful Allah who didnt put a method of prayer in His Quran, thus leaving it to the unstable and unprotected process of ahadith making and survival in order for this most intrinsic and necessary Islamic obligation to be determined.

 

if yes, was this verse not recited by the prophet? Also, how do you know the prophet prayed? Why do I have to pray? Allah says we have to obey Him and the prophet, so how do we know, maybe the prophet told us to pray, but only on weekends. What about mentally challenged people? They have to pray too right? Since Allah commanded it. If not, how do you know? If you can prove to me the prophet prayed Ill pray to, otherwise im not going to pray, since after all we must obey Allah and the prophet and who knows maybe the prophet decided to make praying a recommendation.

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Salam, I'm picking up on this for discussions sake. I see people use this argument a lot and it always baffles me somewhat. Its based on the supposition that there needs to be 1 specific way to pray, which is a hadith based notion. The Quran doesnt make this claim, so for a Quranist it isnt a problem, just like it isnt for Christians. Before i came to Islam it hadnt occurred to me that there should be 1 strict way for everyone to pray and its not at all obvious why that would need ot be the case. If you want to pray communally and in unison its helpful to have an agreed upon way in which you will do it, but thats a different notion than saying there should be only 1 way to do it that is acceptable.

 

You must know how God wants you to pray.

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Yes.

 

 

 

The irony being that this is one of the key areas where sunnis and shias dont agree. So either you believe you dont have to pray in a specific way, or you believe that Sunni's prayers are not accepted or answered by the all merciful Allah who didnt put a method of prayer in His Quran, thus leaving it to the unstable and unprotected process of ahadith making and survival in order for this most intrinsic and necessary Islamic obligation to be determined.

Sunnis and Shia pray 5 prayers

Fajr/dawn :2 rak'ah/2 units

Zuhr/noon: 4 Rak'ah/4units

Asr/afternoon: 4 Rak'ah/4units

Maghrib/sunsit:3 rak'ah/3units

Isha/evening:4rak'ah/4units

 

prayer starts with takbir al'ihram followed by reciting fatiha then another surah, then there is Ruku and the words recited in ruku is subhana rabyia al'atheem, then there is Sujoud and the words recited are subahan rabyia al'a'laa

As far as I know, these suffice to constitute a prayer and as far as I know, sunnis and Shia say and do almost same things

 

Where did they came up with this strange performance? Did they invented it and decided to agree on an invented performance out of all their disagreement?

 

I want to know what benefit do you seek from this argument?

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The quranist arguments are by far the stupidest "arguments" off the plain of this earth. Clearly the prophet was taught this quran, it CAME to the people through him. Do you not think he would ultimately understand this book of his lord? Clearly, all his actions imitated the book of Allah. If prayer was so vague then there must have been instances where he mentioned this to his people, otherwise your interpretation of the quran vs the prophets has no significance. To make up your own interpretation when the quran clearly states, people will try and do so, is futile. Your shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Also intention and obedience comes hand and hand. Obviously, Allah will be the judge of our actions. To say Allah will or will not accept prayers is not in our control. All we can do is OBEY Allah and his MESSENGER. IF you do one, without the other, then its clear our actions are pointless, because your intention is based off of rejecting the truth.

Edited by PureEthics

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They agree in principle, as far as the details go, the shia and sunni prayers are mostly the same.  

 

They agree that you need to bow and prostrate and recite the Quran, which is what the Quran tells you to do, but the ritual is not the same. If a specific ritual is required, then someone is not praying, whether they think they are and have the intention to or not.

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They agree that you need to bow and prostrate and recite the Quran, which is what the Quran tells you to do, but the ritual is not the same. If a specific ritual is required, then someone is not praying, whether they think they are and have the intention to or not.

 

So, I can pray naked and dance around, use the bathroom, do three push, and still fulfill prayer by bowing prostrating and reciting the quran?

 

Quranists is just a cowardice way to say im afraid of seeking the truth.

Edited by PureEthics

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From Ammar Ibn Musa, who has narrated:

 

'I asked Abu 'Abdillah [as] about the rulings, he said: 'The one who gives a ruling by his opinion in what is between the two (covers), so he has blasphemed, and the one who interprets a verse from the book of Allah [azwj], so he has blasphemed.'

 

(Bihaar, V. 89, CH. 10, H. 15)

 

 

From the Prophet [saww] having said: 'The one who speaks regarding the Quran without knowledge, so let him take his place in the fire. And he [saww] said: 'The one who speaks regarding the Quran by his opinion, even if he is right, he is mistaken.'

 

(Bihaar, V. 89, CH. 10, H. 17)

 

 

I believe these two traditions are sufficient. 

Edited by Hussainiyat Zindabad

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if yes, was this verse not recited by the prophet? Also, how do you know the prophet prayed? Why do I have to pray? Allah says we have to obey Him and the prophet, so how do we know, maybe the prophet told us to pray, but only on weekends. What about mentally challenged people? They have to pray too right? Since Allah commanded it. If not, how do you know? If you can prove to me the prophet prayed Ill pray to, otherwise im not going to pray, since after all we must obey Allah and the prophet and who knows maybe the prophet decided to make praying a recommendation.

 

The Quran says the Prophet(saw) prayed and that this is what believers do and gives the indications of the times of day when it should be done. Really, if youve looked at what Quranists have to say on this issue then dont generally have a problem with figuring out how to pray, the same way Christians and Jews dont. Even Buddhists bend and prostrate in meditation. If you dont come with the assumption that there needs to be a very specifc way to pray that is the only 'legitimate' way to pray (meaning anything other is deficient and wont yeild results) this isnt an issue.

So, I can pray naked and dance around, use the bathroom, do three push, and still fulfill prayer by bowing prostrating and reciting the quran?

 

Quranists is just a cowardice way to say im afraid of seeking the truth.

 

Were people praying naked when the Quran was revealed? unless that was normal prayer practice why would the Quran need to tell you not to pray naked? Jews, dont, Christians dont. Is there evidence mushriks were praying naked? Why would Muslims on hearing the Qurans recitation suddenly lose their marbles and say 'hey Allahs not telling us to pray clothed, lets do it naked!' ? it doesnt appear to be the way of things does it.

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The Quran says the Prophet(saw) prayed and that this is what believers do and gives the indications of the times of day when it should be done. Really, if youve looked at what Quranists have to say on this issue then dont generally have a problem with figuring out how to pray, the same way Christians and Jews dont. Even Buddhists bend and prostrate in meditation. If you dont come with the assumption that there needs to be a very specifc way to pray that is the only 'legitimate' way to pray (meaning anything other is deficient and wont yeild results) this isnt an issue.

 

Were people praying naked when the Quran was revealed? unless that was normal prayer practice why would the Quran need to tell you not to pray naked? Jews, dont, Christians dont. Is there evidence mushriks were praying naked? Why would Muslims on hearing the Qurans recitation suddenly lose their marbles and say 'hey Allahs not telling us to pray clothed, lets do it naked!' ? it doesnt appear to be the way of things does it.

 

 

First and foremost please dont bring any other religions into this matter for they all rejected Allah, thus ALL their actions and methods are useless and void of this discussion. Second, you cant keep saying we are making assumptions because even you agreed the prophet prayed therefore we MUST follow him, as he has a right over us, then we do to our selves. If the only job of the prophet was to bring the quran upon us, then this religion is pointless, clearly, not everything is in the quran because Allah has given everything else for the prophet to command. Why else bring the prophet? Was it a joke?

 

Well, you keep telling me stop making assumptions so im telling you not to either. Clearly, as you mentioned all it says to pray, so whether I pray naked, or in the shower, or doing pushups and dance while praying shouldnt matter right? Once again, I dont care for other religions, their void in this discussion. All im doing is merely interpreting the verse in my own way. Also, if every single matter in the quran is like this, why has Allah made this religion so abstract or loose? Does this not undermine Allah's perfect system? I mean, to allow the notion of "Anything goes as long as we do what the quran says" is not different as me saying I make my own rules as a go.

Edited by PureEthics

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