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Robin Hood

Does A Muslim Need To Believe Jesus Didn't Die?

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This topic has been debated by Scholars for centuries. The consensus (from what I know) is that the Son of Mary [as] did not die. He was raised physically and spiritually to Allah. There is a hadith from Imam al-Ridha [a] which says this as well. Sh. as-Sadooq, however, was of the opinion that he did die but not on the cross. 

 

The Qur'ān does not say Jesus never died. It states that he was not crucified on the cross or killed as a result of the actions of the Jews at his time. 

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Believing in the death of Jesus or his being lifted to the heavens alive is not a primary article of faith in Islam. You remain a Muslim even if your belief in this matter is not correct.  

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Believing in the death of Jesus or his being lifted to the heavens alive is not a primary article of faith in Islam. You remain a Muslim even if your belief in this matter is not correct.

So what does the Quran say. Was Jesus crucified or was Jesus not Crucified?

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So what does the Quran say. Was Jesus crucified or was Jesus not Crucified?

 

Taken literally, it appears the English translation of [4:157] says that they neither killed him nor did they crucify him;

 

Beyond the plain literal, I am afraid I do not know..

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There is a verse in the Quran that says that Jesus died a physical death and that He was taken up to heaven, so, after His death He was Resurrected, --- so He rose from the dead and was seen by hundreds of witnesses (1 Corinthians 15) before His ascension, (so there were no physical remains.)

Notice this verse in 3:

55 Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

Yusuf Ali: Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:

Shakir: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection;

Sher Ali: Remember the time when Allah said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection;

Palmer: When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment,

--- I understand that the Arabic words used in 'I am gathering you,' 'I will take thee,' 'I am going to terminate the period of your stay on earth,' 'I will cause you to die a natural death,' (which is the separation of body and spirit), and 'I will make thee die,' refer to physical death, do they not?

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Salam. Brother Placid, the arabic word used there is " وفى " . And interestingly it can mean " death " but it can also mean " being truthful to the word " and most importantly, going into a different realm to come back again, and " sleeping and dreaming " is one reflection of this meaning. For instance, in Quran 6:60, this word is definitely about this meaning; "And He it is Who takes your souls at night (in sleep), and He knows what you acquire in the day, then He raises you up therein that an appointed term may be fulfilled; then to Him is your return, then He will inform you of what you were doing." So, the condition the Messiah was/is in, is that He was/is still alive but taken into a different realm in order to come back in the same realm again. I hope I make sense. You can study the realms of life here btw; http://www.iranianmovies.org/index.php?topic=704.0 ma salam

Edited by Haji 2003
editing asked by HTR

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As for the article, I stopped reading seeing the phrase where it said Quran/God knows nothing about elaborations.

And bro andres, I think you got the answer above from brother peaceloving. It does not need to be repeated. Don't you think so? ma salam

Edited by HamzaTR

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To be very clear and repeat what was said above, the Qur'an explicitly states Jesus not killed on the cross or crucified.

That is also how I immediately read it, but when Peace and HamzaTR say they are not certain and Placid say the opposite of you, I , being an amatueur on the field, become unsure.

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There is a verse in the Quran that says that Jesus died a physical death and that He was taken up to heaven, so, after His death He was Resurrected, --- so He rose from the dead and was seen by hundreds of witnesses (1 Corinthians 15) before His ascension, (so there were no physical remains.)

Notice this verse in 3:

55 Pickthall: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection.

Yusuf Ali: Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:

Shakir: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection;

Sher Ali: Remember the time when Allah said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection;

Palmer: When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment,

--- I understand that the Arabic words used in 'I am gathering you,' 'I will take thee,' 'I am going to terminate the period of your stay on earth,' 'I will cause you to die a natural death,' (which is the separation of body and spirit), and 'I will make thee die,' refer to physical death, do they not?

 

"Clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve." The disbelievers were Jews and Roman authorities IIRC? I mean, how does that settle in with the Christians. Its quite clear in the NT that Jews gave Jesus (as) a lot of hard time and didn't believe in him. Yet, you tolerate OT inside of NT and say its to give people perspective while the OT is Jewish and you thereby legitimize Judaism. And if Romans crucified him then how come Constantine, a Roman and a pagan, chairing the council of Nicaea was allowed to create trinity. The bishops should have avoided him like the plague instead. I'm sorry and I know I must appear to be habitually inquisitive to Christians but these things don't settle in well with me. Perhaps a Sunni would approve of all this, since ironically, their religion is born of the same monarch and state sponsored clergy's tag teaming.

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Quote from Post 14:

And if Romans crucified him then how come Constantine, a Roman and a pagan, chairing the council of Nicaea was allowed to create trinity.

Response: --- Constantine claimed to be a Christian but if you read about him you will find he was as much a philosopher, as a believer. --- The Romans had agreed with some bishops that they would quit persecuting them if they were willing to join together in a new organization, --- and they ‘replaced’ the word Christian with Catholic, which meant ‘Universal.’ --- So, the new organization was the Roman Catholic Church, --- which was fashioned after the old Jewish Church with the hierarchy of the Priests and high Priests. --- The Bishops who joined became the hierarchy of Priests and they chose a Pope, --- but Rome had the authority.

--- The individual Christian Churches were non-violent, and continued to be. --- However, under Constantine and the new doctrines like ‘trinity’ that they tried to force on the independent Christian Churches, --- the Roman authority became the “Voice” for Christianity, and began fighting their Roman battles in the name of the Church.

--- There are a few verses in the Quran that speak against the Catholic Church, and it was after Umar had led the Muslims across North Africa, conquering as they went, and up into Israel, (because he carried a grudge against the Jews, even after he drove them out of Arabia.)

--- So, when the Muslims dominated Israel and later prevented the Jews and Christians from visiting their holy sites in Israel, --- the Roman Catholic Crusaders came in to free the country. --- It had no more to do with Christianity, than the aggression of Umar had anything to do with Islam in conquering Israel, --- which, these years later, caused this conflict of the Crusaders in freeing the land.

--- Umar used the name of Islam in his conquest in the 700’s, and the Crusaders used the name Christian, in their conquests, even using the name of the Pope, but these actions were all contrary to what God taught, --- so, they were all ungodly.

This is what has caused so much hatred between the Muslims and Christians, --- and the devil is laughing at both of us, while we continue the conflict.

You don’t have to agree with me but I try to tell what the Scriptures say, and what history reveals.

The best way to resolve this present issue is to say that the Jews, Romans, Muslims, and critics, --- don’t believe in the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ, the Messiah, --- and the Christians do, because the Resurrection is the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith.

--- The Christians believe in a ‘born again’ Spiritual experience in our relationship to God, while in this world, --- and in the final Resurrection of believers to heaven.

I have asked, “What difference does it make to the faith of Muslims whether they believe that Jesus died and rose again, --- or not?"

--- And the answer has been, “It doesn’t make any difference to the Muslim faith.”

So there is your answer.

Placid

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That is also how I immediately read it, but when Peace and HamzaTR say they are not certain and Placid say the opposite of you, I , being an amatueur on the field, become unsure.

I believe you misunderstood what they were saying.

 

Ali Musaa simply mentioned that the Qur'an doesn't necessarily say that he never died and is still alive today. He points out the fact that the Qur'an only says that he wasn't killed on the cross, which is debatable but, at the end of the day, irrelevant because what matters is the crucifixion. It he died fifty years after the event, even so, it doesn't make a difference.

 

Hamza actually said that he never died but just went to a different realm and will return later on, like you go to a different "realm" when dreaming and then return when you wake up.

 

Placid is a Christian so he is obviously going to try and prove that the crucifixion did indeed take place and that's fine as  we do the same when trying to prove our beliefs using the Bible but he obviously has a bias in trying to prove it did happen so unless the reasoning he gives is very solid, the others' opinions might be more acceptable since they are Muslims and more likely to be an expert on the Islamic viewpoint that he might be.

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What if we were to call it the Muslamic viewpoint instead of the Islamic viewpoint. I just say that to differentiate between the religion God gave us, and the religion men interpreted from it. It's happened to Christians for years, no way Muslims are immune to it.

 

Here's the "and it appeared unto them"

 

Jesus, on a cross, between two other men. The likely conclusion is that Jesus died from being on a cross. Many Christians still believe this, but that's not what's written.

What is written is that while Jesus was on the cross He gave up His spirit and God took Him.

 

Proof later in the Gospels says the Romans went out to break their legs. This was to speed up the process of suffocation. They broke the legs of the ones on either side, which means they were still alive. Instead of breaking the legs of Jesus they saw Him as already dead. They stabbed Him with a spear instead, and out came blood and water, which is what you get from a dead anything. Dead guts liquefy. This is why you "dress" meat (clean the guts out) at the point of death rather than waiting any amount of time.

 

This says Jesus gave up His ghost and didn't actually die from the crucifixion. Sure looked like it to the uneducated watching. John, and Mary, Mother of Jesus, amongst others, heard it, saw it and they knew the truth. God took Jesus unto Himself as the Quran says.

 

One difference...Muslims believe that God took Him in His human form.

 

What's the use? Did God send an earth suited flying saucer down to get Him? At 30,000 ft you can see an airplane go by, but nobody recorded seeing one, no human could stand the temperature nor the lack of oxygen getting up there so it would have had to come much closer, still nobody recorded seeing such a thing, even shepherds in the fields. If that's how people go to heaven then all the righteous graves are empty, (before composition hopefully). A human body would die twice before leaving this atmosphere, and at last moment would be ashes falling back on earth before really getting into space. Once in space, forget it. God has no humans in heaven, it's quite obvious. He has no use for flesh and blood. Heaven is interested in our souls, not our human body's. otherwise most of us would end up in heaven as geriatrics. Heaven is not an old folks home. No use being buried with a wheel chair. The Bible says new body and new name...I\m good with that. Does God want me to suffer eternity with the complications of physically giving my best to this earth on His behalf?

 

God wants the good of you, the rest can rot...Sorry about science...

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What if we were to call it the Muslamic viewpoint instead of the Islamic viewpoint. I just say that to differentiate between the religion God gave us, and the religion men interpreted from it. It's happened to Christians for years, no way Muslims are immune to it.

 

Here's the "and it appeared unto them"

 

Jesus, on a cross, between two other men. The likely conclusion is that Jesus died from being on a cross. Many Christians still believe this, but that's not what's written.

What is written is that while Jesus was on the cross He gave up His spirit and God took Him.

 

Proof later in the Gospels says the Romans went out to break their legs. This was to speed up the process of suffocation. They broke the legs of the ones on either side, which means they were still alive. Instead of breaking the legs of Jesus they saw Him as already dead. They stabbed Him with a spear instead, and out came blood and water, which is what you get from a dead anything. Dead guts liquefy. This is why you "dress" meat (clean the guts out) at the point of death rather than waiting any amount of time.

 

This says Jesus gave up His ghost and didn't actually die from the crucifixion. Sure looked like it to the uneducated watching. John, and Mary, Mother of Jesus, amongst others, heard it, saw it and they knew the truth. God took Jesus unto Himself as the Quran says.

 

One difference...Muslims believe that God took Him in His human form.

 

What's the use? Did God send an earth suited flying saucer down to get Him? At 30,000 ft you can see an airplane go by, but nobody recorded seeing one, no human could stand the temperature nor the lack of oxygen getting up there so it would have had to come much closer, still nobody recorded seeing such a thing, even shepherds in the fields. If that's how people go to heaven then all the righteous graves are empty, (before composition hopefully). A human body would die twice before leaving this atmosphere, and at last moment would be ashes falling back on earth before really getting into space. Once in space, forget it. God has no humans in heaven, it's quite obvious. He has no use for flesh and blood. Heaven is interested in our souls, not our human body's. otherwise most of us would end up in heaven as geriatrics. Heaven is not an old folks home. No use being buried with a wheel chair. The Bible says new body and new name...I\m good with that. Does God want me to suffer eternity with the complications of physically giving my best to this earth on His behalf?

 

God wants the good of you, the rest can rot...Sorry about science...

 

 

Please dont try and use science to disprove the power of Allah, while you believe God can have a son, or an infinite being can be held within a finite realm or being. Now that is far from any will, as it goes against the literal notion of a Absolute God. No, God didnt take Jesus A.S to space, come on, seriously??  If you are going to poke a hole on islam do it with a sense of reason, if you can. Allah took Jesus A.S from this physical world, period. No need to get into false semantics. If anything, first check out your books please. Oh wait? Your now going to tell me, thats not what it means and im taking it literal right?

 

If you or anyone else replies to my post, dont bother posting non related, hypothetical talk, or gibberish, because im not going to bother reading/replying to it. Just make your point, straight at that. Thats all you christian folk on here do, you make the reader busy with nonsense to try and stay away from the argument.

 

 

 

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

 

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

 

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

Jesus here emphasized what will happen to him by specifically saying that he will be like Jonas in terms of the number of days and nights he will be in the heart of the earth, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Matthew 12:40). Now let us see if this prophecy came to pass.

 

Jesus was crucified on Friday, this is certainly known among all Christians, and it’s the reason for calling that Friday by “Good Friday.” Jesus was buried on Friday night. Now let us start counting:

 

1. Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night #1.

 

2. Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day #1.

 

3. Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night #2.

 

Mary Magdalene, very early in the morning before sun rise and after the Sabbath (Saturday), went to see Jesus, and found that he was not there. The following verses describe this event:

 

Mark 16:1 And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

 

Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun.

 

Mark 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulcher?

 

Mark 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

 

Mark 16:5 And entering into the sepulcher, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

 

Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

 

The number of days and nights Jesus spent in the heart of the earth is 1 day and 2 nights. This challenges what Jesus had prophesied.

When I tell this to my Christian brothers, some of them responded by saying that what Jesus wanted to really say was that he will be gone for a while, and not that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. This is clearly not the case. Had Jesus meant that, he would have said it, but it is clear that he wanted people to know this was a sign (miracle) and it will be like Jonas’ sign, and he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. These were his own words.

Another argument is that the Jews used a different system for the day and night which makes the prophecy come true. The idea says that Jews used to consider a day shorter than we consider it now. If you would ask a Jewish person about their calendar you would find that this is not the case, and a day does not become shorter at all. The difference between a Jewish day and a regular day is the time when the day starts and ends. Jewish people considered the day over when the sun went down, whereas now we consider midnight to be the end of a day. There is no difference in the length of the day, and accepting the Jewish day would only make things worse as far as the prophecy goes.

 

http://www.al-islam.org/articles/closer-look-christianity-mohamed-qasem#was-jesus-sent-be-crucified

 

 

Jesus A.S in Shia narrations:

 

 

(A part of the psalm “Mashlul” is:) “O He who returned Joseph to Ya‘qub! O He who removed the harm from Job! O He who forgave the sin of David! O He who raised Jesus the son of Mary and saved him from the hands of the Jews! O He who answered the calling of Yunus in the darkness! O He who chose Moses by the Words! …”2

 

It is reported that Abu ‘Abd Allah (‘a) said, “… as for the occultation of Jesus, the Jews and the Christians are agreed that he was killed, so Allah, the Mighty and Magnificent, belied them by His saying,They did not kill nor crucify him, but it appeared to them so (4:157). Likewise, the occultation of al-Qa’im (‘a), then the community will deny it.”3

 

It is reported that Habib ibn ‘Amr said, “When the Commander of the Faithful passed away, Hasan (‘a) stood and spoke. He said, ‘O you people! On this night Jesus the son of Mary was raised.’”5

 

It is reported that Abu Ja‘far (‘a) said, “On the night when ‘Ali (‘a) was murdered no stone was lifted from the face of the earth unless beneath it was found pure fresh blood, until the first break of dawn. It was the same on the night Yusha‘ ibn Nunu, and it was the same on the night when Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) was raised, and it was the same on the night when Husayn (‘a) was murdered.”6

 

It is reported that in response to questions put to him by his son, Zayd, Imam Sajjad (‘a) said, “O my boy! Certainly the Ka‘abah is the house of Allah, and whoever makes the pilgrimage to the house of Allah, intends to come before Allah, and the mosques are the houses of Allah, and whoever tries to get to them, tries to get to and intends to come before Allah, and one who prays, as long as he is praying, stands before Allah, the mighty and magnificent.

 

Verily, Allah, the blessed and exalted, has spots in the heavens, so whoever is elevated to one of these spots is elevated to Him. Have you not heard that Allah, the mighty and magnificent, says that the angels and the spirit are elevated to Him. And Allah, the mighty and magnificent, says, in the story of Jesus the son of Mary (‘a),

 

Nay, Allah took him up to Himself. (4:158),

 

and Allah, the mighty and magnificent, says,

 

To Him the good words ascend, and He elevates the good deeds to Himself. (35:10).8

 

 

It is reported that Al-Ridha’ (‘a) said, “When the Jews wanted to kill Jesus, he called upon Allah by our truth,14 then He saved him from being murdered and raised him.”15

 

 

....There is PLENTY more: http://www.al-islam.org/jesus-though-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/his-ascension

 

(wasalam)

Edited by PureEthics

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Salam. Brother Placid, the arabic word used there is " وفى " . And interestingly it can mean " death " but it can also mean " being truthful to the word " and most importantly, going into a different realm to come back again, and " sleeping and dreaming " is one reflection of this meaning. For instance, in Quran 6:60, this word is definitely about this meaning; "And He it is Who takes your souls at night (in sleep), and He knows what you acquire in the day, then He raises you up therein that an appointed term may be fulfilled; then to Him is your return, then He will inform you of what you were doing." So, the condition the Messiah was/is in, is that He was/is still alive but taken into a different realm in order to come back in the same realm again. I hope I make sense. You can study the realms of life here btw; http://www.iranianmovies.org/index.php?topic=704.0 ma salam

 

Greetings HamzaTR,

 

You do not think that you would first need to die in the flesh to 'enter another realm'?  Because I do.  Can flesh enter the heavenly realm?  I can not see how it can, therefore, to my mind, flesh would have to die first.  Can a soul re-enter into flesh... i.e., cross from the heavenly realm to the earthly realm... yes, but not the other way around.  I can only believe, that only the soul can enter the heavenly realms.

 

Salaam.

Edited by Haji 2003
same correction as above

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Greetings HamzaTR,

 

You do not think that you would first need to die in the flesh to 'enter another realm'?  Because I do.  Can flesh enter the heavenly realm?  I can not see how it can, therefore, to my mind, flesh would have to die first.  Can a soul re-enter into flesh... i.e., cross from the heavenly realm to the earthly realm... yes, but not the other way around.  I can only believe, that only the soul can enter the heavenly realms.

 

Salaam.

 

as christians we believe there are some that can (and have) entered Heaven Body and Soul,

Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Elijah, Enoch, etc.

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I believe you misunderstood what they were saying.

Ali Musaa simply mentioned that the Qur'an doesn't necessarily say that he never died and is still alive today. He points out the fact that the Qur'an only says that he wasn't killed on the cross, which is debatable but, at the end of the day, irrelevant because what matters is the crucifixion. It he died fifty years after the event, even so, it doesn't make a difference.

Hamza actually said that he never died but just went to a different realm and will return later on, like you go to a different "realm" when dreaming and then return when you wake up.

Placid is a Christian so he is obviously going to try and prove that the crucifixion did indeed take place and that's fine as we do the same when trying to prove our beliefs using the Bible but he obviously has a bias in trying to prove it did happen so unless the reasoning he gives is very solid, the others' opinions might be more acceptable since they are Muslims and more likely to be an expert on the Islamic viewpoint that he might be.

Hamza reffered to Peace. Peace say the english translation reads Jesus was not crucified, but for some reason he does not dare to say this is to be taken literally. Due to my discussion with Placid I was only interested to know if there was a discrepancy between the Bible and Quran on this. Placid say no, I think yes. If the Quranic position cant be determined, a comparison with the Bible is of course not possible.

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Taken literally, it appears the English translation of [4:157] says that they neither killed him nor did they crucify him;

 

Beyond the plain literal, I am afraid I do not know..

 

So, he did say that this is what it means it taken literally and also mentioned that the literal is the only option he knows of so it seems more of a confirmation to me.

What if we were to call it the Muslamic viewpoint instead of the Islamic viewpoint. I just say that to differentiate between the religion God gave us, and the religion men interpreted from it. It's happened to Christians for years, no way Muslims are immune to it.

 

Here's the "and it appeared unto them"

 

Jesus, on a cross, between two other men. The likely conclusion is that Jesus died from being on a cross. Many Christians still believe this, but that's not what's written.

What is written is that while Jesus was on the cross He gave up His spirit and God took Him.

 

Proof later in the Gospels says the Romans went out to break their legs. This was to speed up the process of suffocation. They broke the legs of the ones on either side, which means they were still alive. Instead of breaking the legs of Jesus they saw Him as already dead. They stabbed Him with a spear instead, and out came blood and water, which is what you get from a dead anything. Dead guts liquefy. This is why you "dress" meat (clean the guts out) at the point of death rather than waiting any amount of time.

 

This says Jesus gave up His ghost and didn't actually die from the crucifixion. Sure looked like it to the uneducated watching. John, and Mary, Mother of Jesus, amongst others, heard it, saw it and they knew the truth. God took Jesus unto Himself as the Quran says.

 

One difference...Muslims believe that God took Him in His human form.

 

What's the use? Did God send an earth suited flying saucer down to get Him? At 30,000 ft you can see an airplane go by, but nobody recorded seeing one, no human could stand the temperature nor the lack of oxygen getting up there so it would have had to come much closer, still nobody recorded seeing such a thing, even shepherds in the fields. If that's how people go to heaven then all the righteous graves are empty, (before composition hopefully). A human body would die twice before leaving this atmosphere, and at last moment would be ashes falling back on earth before really getting into space. Once in space, forget it. God has no humans in heaven, it's quite obvious. He has no use for flesh and blood. Heaven is interested in our souls, not our human body's. otherwise most of us would end up in heaven as geriatrics. Heaven is not an old folks home. No use being buried with a wheel chair. The Bible says new body and new name...I\m good with that. Does God want me to suffer eternity with the complications of physically giving my best to this earth on His behalf?

 

God wants the good of you, the rest can rot...Sorry about science...

 

Are you seriously going to go into science for "being lifted up to Heaven"? I mean, we're talking about a whole different realm here and I am sure that God doesn't invite people over to Heaven in Mercedes or A-330s. If the whole thing is from the beginning a miracle, why do you need to rely on science in the last part?

 

Plus, if you really want it, there are some very interesting theories by scientists about wormholes and how they can create a rupture in the fabric of space and allow instantaeous travel to far off regions of the Universe. So, God moved him through a wormhole. I know how ridiculous that may sound but it's just as ridiculous as asking for a physical, tangible and scientific explanation for the whole thing.

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In Post 15, I said,

Quote: --- ‘that the Jews, Romans, Muslims, and critics, --- don’t believe in the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ, the Messiah.

But that was not quite right. At that time all of the Christians were Jews (except some like Luke, who was Greek), and they believed because they were the followers of Jesus.

Only the Jewish Hierarchy wanted Jesus killed, --- who planned His death and after the trial before Pilate, incited their mob to call for Him ‘to be crucified.’

Since this has become a good discussion and there are still things not known, I want to add some Scripture from Matthew 27:

22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”

They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”

23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”

But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”

24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”

25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

--- (So the Jews there accepted the blame for Jesus’ death, and the nation has suffered through history as a result, have they not?)

--- Then when the Jews in Madinah began to reject Muhammad and his teaching, they were reminded of their former rejection of Jesus, in Surah 2:

72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.

--- (They were not all in favor of crucifying Jesus, because two of the Pharisees, Joseph of Arimathea, and Nicodemus, took the body of Jesus down from the cross, and laid it in a tomb which belonged to Joseph.)

--- (And then the Resurrection):

2:73 Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

Notice: --- This is one place it says that ‘the Jews killed Jesus.’

In the parallel story of the Jews breaking their covenants with God, it says in Surah 4:

155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)."

Notice: --- This is the second time it says ‘they slew the Apostle of God.’

Next we go to 157, where they at first boasted about killing Jesus, --- but this corrects it to say that THE JEWS DIDN’T KILL HIM.

157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, --- (everyone would see Jesus hanging on the cross for three hours, so that certainly made it ‘appear to them that He was crucified.’

--- As soon as the decision was made to crucify Jesus and the Jews took responsibility for His death, then the Romans took over, Matthew 27:

31 --- and led Him away to be crucified.

35 --- Then they crucified Him,

36 Sitting down, they kept watch over Him there.

37 And they put up over His head the accusation written against Him:

THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

38 Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left.

Since all four Gospel writers record the same, it is pretty hard to deny that Jesus was on the cross and was crucified, as prophesied, but the controversy can be only over, when and how He died.

He was not on the cross long enough to die from the crucifixion, but the Roman soldiers declared Him dead so they didn’t break His legs as they did to the other two to induce a quick death. --- (However, one pierced His side, just to make sure.)

36 says, ‘the Romans kept watch over Him there,’ --- lest the disciples would come to take Him down from the cross. --- And later, the Roman soldiers guarded the tomb for the three days, also fearing that the disciples might come and take Him away, and tell the story that He had risen from the dead.

--- While the Romans are not mentioned in the Quran in relation to the crucifixion, they would believe it because they made sure He was dead on the cross, and that He was in the tomb before His Resurrection.

(More later on the lectures of Ahmad Deedat)

Placid

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So, he did say that this is what it means it taken literally and also mentioned that the literal is the only option he knows of so it seems more of a confirmation to me.

Yes it does, but there is this reservation that it might mean something else. If you ask a christian if the Bible says Jesus was crucified, the answer is a simple YES.

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Yes it does, but there is this reservation that it might mean something else. If you ask a christian if the Bible says Jesus was crucified, the answer is a simple YES.

 

Well, then, only he can answer that. The majority view (and we're really talking 100% here, except if you can find me someone who doesn't) amongst Muslims is that he was not crucified. Beyond that, almost everyone also believes that he is still alive, and, at the end of the day, it's not central to being a Muslim.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

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Hi Placid

In my opinion there is nothing in the NT indicating that the BODY of Jesus did not die from the crucifixion. On the contrary, the soldiers proved his body dead and no source say Jesus committed suicide. But what about his soul? Can a soul die from crucifixion? Does a soul ever die? Or is it only kind of asleep? Or is this something our human mind can not understand and we therefore better let go until further.

The Quran does not say "they" killed his body but not his soul. It says "they" killed him not. Which as minimum mean; they did not kill his body. 99,999% of Muslims can agree with this, and this does not match the Gospels story.

Muslims believe Gospels are corrupted, christians believe Muhammed was not a true prophet. You are very eager to show that Muhammed was a true proohet and that the Gospels are the uncorrupted Injeel. So you try to make it all match. It just dont work.

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Muslims believe Gospels are corrupted, christians believe Muhammed was not a true prophet. You are very eager to show that Muhammed was a true proohet and that the Gospels are the uncorrupted Injeel. So you try to make it all match. It just dont work.

 

God never leaves to stray a sincere heart. Its a shame more Christians are not like Placid and Son of Placid and recognise the truth when its smacking them in the face. 

 

I dont agree with everything Placid argues or believes. The Qur'ān does confirm previous Revelation because we are required to recognise all prophets and scriptures. But the Qur'ān does not confirm the Gospels of the New Testament. 

 

Think about it: The Qur'ān says God gave Jesus [a] the Injeel but the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were all compiled and written after Jesus left the scene. How can one conclude that that the Original Injeel are the 4 New Testament Gospels? 

Muslims certainly believe that some of whats in the Gospels could be part of the Injeel. After all, Jesus would of preaching the Injeel so its not hard to believe some of what he said that was in the original Injeel was recorded.

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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Think about it: The Qur'ān says God gave Jesus [a] the Injeel but the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were all compiled and written after Jesus left the scene. How can one conclude that that the Original Injeel are the 4 New Testament Gospels? 

Muslims certainly believe that some of whats in the Gospels could be part of the Injeel. After all, Jesus would of preaching the Injeel so its not hard to believe some of what he said that was in the original Injeel was recorded.

 

Hello Ali,

 

We as Catholics believe in Oral Tradition, and just because they were not physically written in Jesus' time does not mean they were not God's Word (if you know what I mean).

In fact in the 1st Century the Gospels has already been written and circulated, and there were many in the Middle East who preferred the Gospel of John, others Matthew.

 

It was St Irenaeus (died 202AD) who compiled the 4 gospels and declared them together as canon.

Now St Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of St John the Apostle.

So I'm going to believe St Irenaeus when he declared them to be God's word.

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Please dont try and use science to disprove the power of Allah, while you believe God can have a son, or an infinite being can be held within a finite realm or being. Now that is far from any will, as it goes against the literal notion of a Absolute God. No, God didnt take Jesus A.S to space, come on, seriously??  If you are going to poke a hole on islam do it with a sense of reason, if you can. Allah took Jesus A.S from this physical world, period. No need to get into false semantics. If anything, first check out your books please. Oh wait? Your now going to tell me, thats not what it means and im taking it literal right?

 

 

Please don't tell me what you think I believe, while also thinking I have an intent on poking a hole in Islam. It was a Muslim first told me they were expecting a flying saucer, but to tell you that's what you believe would be zero ethics, kinda like....

 

If you or anyone else replies to my post, dont bother posting non related, hypothetical talk, or gibberish, because im not going to bother reading/replying to it. Just make your point, straight at that. Thats all you christian folk on here do, you make the reader busy with nonsense to try and stay away from the argument.

 

Of course not. We all realize what an important and busy fellow you must be and we all apologize for wasting your time. We also know that while you know everything rather than speculate we should be grovelling at your feet for the pure truth that only you could convey on us lesser people.

Actually splashing a page full of hadith doesn't help. I've already explained how I feel about hadith and you just added enough to strengthen my case.

 

 

Are you seriously going to go into science for "being lifted up to Heaven"? I mean, we're talking about a whole different realm here and I am sure that God doesn't invite people over to Heaven in Mercedes or A-330s. If the whole thing is from the beginning a miracle, why do you need to rely on science in the last part?

 

I was hoping for a GMC Sierra, 4X4 of course for over the rough spots. That would be easier cuz I already have one. But wait, you're saying a whole nuther realm that still accepts flesh and blood, huh. American express as well?

 

Plus, if you really want it, there are some very interesting theories by scientists about wormholes and how they can create a rupture in the fabric of space and allow instantaeous travel to far off regions of the Universe. So, God moved him through a wormhole. I know how ridiculous that may sound but it's just as ridiculous as asking for a physical, tangible and scientific explanation for the whole thing.

 

I have worm holes throughout my garden. Actually instantaneous space travel can only be done in a Delorean if you have the right amount of jigawatts.

 

Maybe you guys want to let me in on what you believe ascended means and where you end up. Obviously science has nothing to do with it.

 

Seriously tho, explain it to me. I promise not to be as cynical as either of you.

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Please don't tell me what you think I believe, while also thinking I have an intent on poking a hole in Islam. It was a Muslim first told me they were expecting a flying saucer, but to tell you that's what you believe would be zero ethics, kinda like....

 

Of course not. We all realize what an important and busy fellow you must be and we all apologize for wasting your time. We also know that while you know everything rather than speculate we should be grovelling at your feet for the pure truth that only you could convey on us lesser people.

Actually splashing a page full of hadith doesn't help. I've already explained how I feel about hadith and you just added enough to strengthen my case.

 

Wow, what a short post. You have broken your record!! Bro, obviously I wouldnt be giving the hadiths to you :wacko: your a christian. It was for the OP and every other shia who may think the opposite of our imams.

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Wow, what a short post. You have broken your record!! Bro, obviously I wouldnt be giving the hadiths to you :wacko: your a christian. It was for the OP and every other shia who may think the opposite of our imams.

Once again, you are confused. Don't even know how, but others here will notice.

Yes, it is very important to preach to your fellow Muslims in case they also become confused.

Your the Muslim here...

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God never leaves to stray a sincere heart. Its a shame more Christians are not like Placid and Son of Placid and recognise the truth when its smacking them in the face. 

 

I dont agree with everything Placid argues or believes. The Qur'ān does confirm previous Revelation because we are required to recognise all prophets and scriptures. But the Qur'ān does not confirm the Gospels of the New Testament. 

 

Think about it: The Qur'ān says God gave Jesus [a] the Injeel but the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were all compiled and written after Jesus left the scene. How can one conclude that that the Original Injeel are the 4 New Testament Gospels? 

Muslims certainly believe that some of whats in the Gospels could be part of the Injeel. After all, Jesus would of preaching the Injeel so its not hard to believe some of what he said that was in the original Injeel was recorded.

Hi Ali Musa

 

The Injeel is totaly lost, the Gospels are corrupted. Even so, the Quran never critisises the content of the Gospels,(astonishing). So when not knowing what is right and wrong in the Gospels, how can they be useful to a Muslim? 

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Hi Ali Musa

 

The Injeel is totaly lost, the Gospels are corrupted. Even so, the Quran never critisises the content of the Gospels,(astonishing). So when not knowing what is right and wrong in the Gospels, how can they be useful to a Muslim? 

Not so sure that's a fair evaluation, especially for Muslims. If the Injeel is lost, so is Christianity and Islam.  

What I see between the Gospels and Quran is that the Injeel was not a book but a revelation. The Quran never describes it as a book, and there are no reports Jesus carried a book. Unless Jesus had some special secret revelation that none of the Prophets before or after had then it is the same message given to all.

 

It is fairer to say the Injeel is included in the Gospels, not to say the Injeel are the Gospels. The Gospels would be better described as the life and times of Jesus.

 

If there was any intentional corruption in the NT you can be sure the first sign would be a verse where Jesus clearly states He is God, calls Himself the Son of God instead of Son of Man, and would introduce the trinity to everyone. It doesn't. This may be why the Quran doesn't criticize the NT, just the doctrines that came about after.

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