Where Do We Have Harmony?

[placid]

I had posted this on another thread with the thought of having those who see some harmony in our Faiths and Lifestyles, --- and I add a question at the end.

In studying the Quran, I read these verses in Surah 5:

82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86 But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- So, my simple question is, “What ‘revelation received by the Apostle’ was Muhammad teaching, that the Christians agreed with?”

--- It must have been truth that the Christians already believed, “Their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth.”

And their belief in God was recognized and would be, “Rewarded with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home.”

Placid

[IloveImamHussain]

HI Placid

 

There might be an answer to your question in the following link.

 

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/tafsir/5-68-86/

 

 

Cheers

 

ILIH

Edited January 30, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

[placid]

Hi ILove,

I started reading the link and found it interesting, --- Naturally I haven’t finished it, but I will refer to it again.

I wondered what points you were referring to as the teaching of Muhammad, that the Christians might have responded to?

It was no doubt part of Surah 5 --- So what would this ‘revelation‘ have been?

--- If we examine the verses and discover some basic principles, --- perhaps we could start again from this ‘revelation of truth’ where the Muslims and Christians were in harmony, --- and where they had the promise of God’s reward.

[IloveImamHussain]

Hi Placid

 

I did not read that link myself. I just assumed it might shed some light on your query.

 

As far as harmony is concerned, I believe there are indeed many common points.

 

Apart for the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity, belief in God and the Reckoning are common to both Christianity and Islam.

 

The ethical and moral values are also more or less the same, with just a handful exceptions. For example, 

• Gluttony - A cardinal sin for Christians, but it is not particularly a sin in Islam, though in specific situations, it could become one.

• Gambling - A major sin in Islam, but not in Christianity

• Alcohol - A major sin in Islam but not in Christianity

• Drugs - A major sin in Islam but not in Christianity

• Smoking - I am not sure about Sunnis but Shia scholars have declared it a sin. It is, however, not a sin in Christianity.

Hope that answers your query. 

[shreek]

 

The ethical and moral values are also more or less the same, with just a handful exceptions. For example, 

• Gluttony - A cardinal sin for Christians, but it is not particularly a sin in Islam, though in specific situations, it could become one.

• Gambling - A major sin in Islam, but not in Christianity

• Alcohol - A major sin in Islam but not in Christianity

• Drugs - A major sin in Islam but not in Christianity

• Smoking - I am not sure about Sunnis but Shia scholars have declared it a sin. It is, however, not a sin in Christianity.

Hope that answers your query. 

 

there are various 'levels' of sin, if you will.

In Catholicism, there are mortal sins and venial sins (and of course Original sin.)

 

A mortal sin (or Grave sin) I believe you know what they are (murder etc) 

A venial sin is a sin but is forgiveable if one repents. 

 

All of the above you mentioned can be sins in Christianity, depending on their use and outcome.

[placid]

Hi ILove,

It seems that what you have listed are all the points of disharmony which you have in mind, that are not mentioned in the topic or in the link you gave, --- and these are really negatives to both Christians and Muslims, are they not?

The link is a long commentary on 5:68-86. --- He starts out on a good verse, 68, --- but it really sets the stage for the Message of Surah 5 in these earlier verses:

15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Apostle, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from God a (new) light and a perspicuous (clear) Book, -

16 Wherewith God guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light, - guideth them to a path that is straight.

19 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Apostle, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And God hath power over all things.

What must be contained in the Surah is something definite, expressing harmony between the message of Muhammad, and the Christians who lived in Madinah, --- for them to be so happy that they shed tears.

--- As I said, the commentary starts on a good verse, 68:

68 Pickthall: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.

68 Yusuf Ali: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

68 Sher Ali: Say, `O People of the Book, you stand on nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and what has now been sent down to you from your Lord.' And surely what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelieve; so grieve not for the disbelieving people.

'

Does this not indicate that it is a 'fresh start' in Faith?

15 There hath come to you from God a (new) light and a perspicuous (clear) Book,

16 and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light, - guideth them to a path that is straight. --- (So the theme seems to be, ‘guidance and light.’)

19 But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil).

68 (Jews and Christians) Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel

--- So we will have to see how it progresses from here in Surah 5.

--- But surely we have a lot in common, do we not?

Placid

[IloveImamHussain]

Hi Placid

 

I had said that   'As far as harmony is concerned, I believe there are indeed many common points'

 

I also said that 'the ethical and moral values are also more or less the same, with just a handful exceptions'.

 

I mentioned those negatives because they are only a few. The commonalities are, of course, more numerous.  

[IloveImamHussain]

Hi Placid

 

This book may have helpful information.

 

http://www.shareglobalcharity.org/img/JesusThruOurEyes.pdf 

[placid]

Hi ILove,

I am not looking for books or links which are the opinions of others, but would like to hear from those here on Shiachat.

For instance: --- On Islam 101 it says this:

Quote: The core doctrines of Islam are summed up in the following Verses:

O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error. [4:136]

But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward. [4:162]

Do you personally agree with these verses?

[IloveImamHussain]

O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error. [4:136]

But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward. [4:162]

Do you personally agree with these verses?

 

Hi Placid 

 

How could I or any Muslim possibly disagree with anything the Quran says?  As discussed before, we may not understand everything but we do not deny its veracity.

 

I am not looking for books or links which are the opinions of others, but would like to hear from those here on Shiachat.

 

The author of that book is indeed on Shiachat.

 

He is a full-fledged member and a regular visitor of this site. He is, in fact, a moderator. He  visits the Christianity forum occasionally. But there are many forums in this site and he can be seen around a fair bit.

 

The book in that link has been published in his usual name and like the rest of us, he has a different name here. If you wish, I can give it to you.

Edited February 3, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

[placid]

Hi ILove,

Quote: How could I or any Muslim possibly disagree with anything the Quran says?

Response: --- So you are saying that all Muslims believe in these ‘core doctrines’?

(Taken from Islam 101). Quote:

--- “The core doctrines of Islam are summed up in the following Verses”:

O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error. [4:136]

But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward. [4:162]

And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. [9:71]

It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are true (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil). [2:177] --- End of quote.

So verses 4:136, and 4:162, which were revealed about the fourth year of the Hijrah, --- would contain the Surahs revealed until that time, but the Surahs did not bring new rules or doctrines, did they?

And since the Revelations through Gabriel confirmed the former Scriptures as true, Surah (3:3-4), there would have been harmony then. --- They had the Torah and the Gospel, the former Book on hand, and the revelations given to Muhammad, up until year 4. --- So, it wasn’t the whole Quran, but sufficient teaching to lead the people from idolatry, back to God.

9:71 is from year 9 of the Hijrah and part of the last teaching Surah, when the alternatives were given, --- that before year ten, the idolaters would need to convert to Islam, leave the country, or be considered as enemies of God, which they were. --- This verse speaks of true believers who were as partners in obedience to God, when the divisions were being clarified.

It is interesting that many commentators have tried to find reason to expel the Christians as part of the exodus, --- but Surah 9 doesn’t teach that, does it?

2:177 is from year 2, when the Jews began taking offence at Muhammad’s teaching. --- It outlines the general principles of faith: --- To ‘believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets. --- The same as 4:

136 --- To believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before, --- and His angels and His messengers (prophets) and the last day.

--- So, we should have a lot in common in believing all of the Scriptures, should we not? --- Do you believe all of the Scriptures?

Placid

[IloveImamHussain]

“The core doctrines of Islam are summed up in the following Verses”:

 

Hi Placid

 

It is the opinion of the author of the article 'Islam 101' that those four verses represent the core values of Islam.It is possible that he (or she) quotes it from somewhere. But I have not come across that opinion ever in my life. He may be right but I do not share that opinion. 

 

 So, we should have a lot in common in believing all of the Scriptures, should we not?  

 

 

Yes, certainly

 

Do you believe all of the Scriptures?

 

Yes, except that we don't agree what they are.

 

You might remember that we have had this discussion before.  

[placid]

Hi ILove,

Quote: Yes, except that we don't agree what they (the Scriptures) are.

Well, I guess that is a good place to start. I accept the Old and New Testament as God’s word, and while there are some discrepancies, the Message is always clear that God has a plan of salvation for mankind, and that only ‘believers in God and His word,’ who submit themselves to Him and do His Good Work, will enter the Garden of Paradise. --- It identifies the three religions of Abraham in surah 5:

48 And unto thee (Muhammad) have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, --- (and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee.) --- For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

The proof that it refers to the three religions from Abraham is because in the former verses, it begins with the Jews who disagreed with Muhammad (41-44)

41 O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief:

42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden

43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

44 It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light.

---So since God says it plainly in the Quran, that He gave the Law of Moses, then this verifies the OT, does it not?

--- And notice, “Therein (in the Torah) was guidance and light (for the Jews.”

(When the Quran says the Bible is true, it has to be true, because the revelations in the Quran are true, are they not?)

If the Quran says that the Bible is true, and it is not, --- then the Quran is not true, because it said the Bible was true when it wasn’t. --- So, the conclusion is that: They are both true, or they are both false, --- Where did they come from, --- From God. --- Can we trust God?

The reason I identified this line in the verse, --- (and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee,) --- because that refers back to the Jews in verses 41-44.

46 “And in their footsteps We (God) sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.”

47” Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.” --- And it is evident that they had it with them in writing.

--- Is that not definite instruction for Christians to live by the Gospel wherein is ‘guidance and light’ for them?

And this identifies that we are separate, and not intended to join together:

48 “--- For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way.”

Then it adds “Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are).”

--- So it gives us our instructions in how to live with others in this conclusion:

“SO VIE ONE WITH ANOTHER IN GOOD WORKS,” --- that means strive as in a race to outdo one another in good works.

48 Yusuf Ali: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.

Shakir: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it,

So, if God sent His Book down, to Jews, Christians, and Muslims, and says that He is the guardian of it, then I think we can believe it all, can we not?

Placid

[Son of Placid]

Hi Placid

 

It is the opinion of the author of the article 'Islam 101' that those four verses represent the core values of Islam.It is possible that he (or she) quotes it from somewhere. But I have not come across that opinion ever in my life. He may be right but I do not share that opinion. 

 

If Islam 101 is not right, please fix it.

[IloveImamHussain]

Hi Son

 

The thread Islam-101 was initiated by a moderator and after one post, it was immediately locked. That is why there is no other post in that thread except for that one. The same goes for Christianity - 101. No one has access to these threads, except the management team.

 

I believe the administration should review articles of such heft from time to time.

Edited February 5, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

[IloveImamHussain]

God has a plan of salvation for mankind, and that only ‘believers in God and His word,’ who submit themselves to Him and do His Good Work, will enter the Garden of Paradise. 

 

Hi Placid

 

You are absolutely right about what He will do.

 

But wouldn't you rather say that His plan is a two-edged sword - salvation for some and perdition for others  -  depending of course on how he judges us..

[placid]

Hi ILove,

Quote from Post 12:

It is the opinion of the author of the article 'Islam 101' that those four verses represent the core values of Islam. It is possible that he (or she) quotes it from somewhere. But I have not come across that opinion ever in my life. He may be right but I do not share that opinion.

Response: --- These are verses from the Quran that do show the belief in the former Scriptures.

There are some whole Surahs that deal with Noah, Abraham, and Moses, --- so would you deny that they are accurate history, when they are written the same in the Quran as in the Torah?

What the Moderator wrote was no doubt scrutinized by others before it was locked in, but it may not be accepted by some others, like yourself.

--- You see, this is what makes it hard to discuss the ‘core values’ when they are different with different people.

Since you have made the statement that you ‘do not share that opinion,’ --- then the field is open to share your ‘core values’ here so we can discuss them

When Christianity 101 was written, it was shared with a number of people including two pastors and four teachers.

I guess, since (as you said) we don’t agree on what the Scriptures were, and we don’t agree on the ‘core values’ of some others, --- where would you say we are in harmony in what we teach?

--- So, what are your values, and your favorite verses in the Quran?

[IloveImamHussain]

You see, this is what makes it hard to discuss the ‘core values’ when they are different with different people

 

 Hi Placid

 

I have never heard the expression 'verses representing core values'. May be there are some but not to my knowledge. And I do not find anything in those verses in Islam-101 that I would regard to represent core values. Nor do I find any compelling reason to share the author's view. 

 

 So what are your values, and your favorite verses in the Quran?

 

As  for my values, they are spread all over the Quran.

 

And as for my favorite verses, again I cannot give you all of them on the top of my head.

 

But here are a few [2:152-156] (seen as one piece), [49:13] and [89:27-30] (also seen as one piece).

 

[2:152-156] Therefore remember me. I will remember you; and give me thanks and be not ungrateful. Believers, seek help with patience and with prayer, for God is with the patient.  And do not say of those who are killed in the path of God that they are dead. No, they are alive. But you do not perceive.  

 

We will try you with some of fear and hunger, loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the patient, who when a misfortune afflicts them, say 'Indeed, we are from God and to Him we will return'.

 

[49:13]  O men! verily, We have created you as male and a female; and We have divided you into peoples and tribes that you might have knowledge one of another. Truly, the most honorable among you in the eyes of God is the one who is most conscious of his duty to Him. Verily, God is Knowing, and Aware.

 

[89:27-30] 

Oh thou soul that is at peace. Return to your Lord, content in His good pleasure. Join my servants. And enter My garden.

 

I have given you a few examples. There are some others that I cannot think of on top of my head.

 

But these are just some of my favorite verses. They do not necessarily represent core values. They are merely a personal selection. 

 

Regards

[IloveImamHussain]

I guess, since (as you said) we don’t agree on what the Scriptures were, and we don’t agree on the ‘core values’ of some others, --- where would you say we are in harmony in what we teach?

 

Hi Placid

 

Indeed, there is a lot of harmony in many things, such as :-

• Belief in one God

• His attributes - All Powerful, All Knowing, All Just, All Merciful, All Seeing, All Hearing  etc.

• Belief in the messengers of God 

• Belief in a final reckoning of our account

• And lastly, ethical and moral values are almost exactly the same - no difference at all.

There are differences, of course, in the following.

• The deification of Jesus

• The trinity

• Some of those recognized as prophets in Islam are not prophets in Judaism or Christianity  - for example, Lot, David and Solomon.

Regards

 

ILIH 

[placid]

Quote from Post 19:

Indeed, there is a lot of harmony in many things, such as:-

• Belief in one God

--- (Yes, we agree that God is God and there is no other.)

* His attributes - All Powerful, All Knowing, All Just, All Merciful, All Seeing, All Hearing etc.

--- (Yes, we agree that God is all in all.)

• Belief in the messengers of God

--- (Yes we believe in the Messengers, which include the Prophets of the OT, does it not?)

• Belief in a final reckoning of our account

--- (Yes, we believe in a Day of Judgment where the righteous will be rewarded, and the guilty, or unbelieving shall be punished.)

• And lastly, ethical and moral values are almost exactly the same - no difference at all.

--- (Yes, Christian principles are of the highest moral standard, however the image of Christians has fallen far from that standard taught in the NT. --- One of the problems is that countries that started out with a Christian led government have used the freedom that came with that democracy to move from Fundamental Faith in God to the societies we have today in countries where they are condoning all manner of immorality and indecency. --- It is all about “man’s pleasure and passion” and many are caught up in the life of crime which was never meant for mankind.)

• It would seem that Islam as well has moved far from its original dedication to God and the individual surrender to God’s will and purpose, has it not?

--- (Yes, In these we are pretty much in agreement, so that is a good start.)

I will comment on the differences you mentioned next.

[baqar]

• It would seem that Islam as well has moved far from its original dedication to God and the individual surrender to God’s will and purpose, has it not?

 

 

Hi Placid

 

Neither Islam nor Christianity have moved even an inch. It is we Muslims and Christians who have moved away from our original teachings.

Regards

 

baqar

[Son of Placid]

Hi Placid

 

Neither Islam nor Christianity have moved even an inch. It is we Muslims and Christians who have moved away from our original teachings.

Regards

 

baqar

I have often said that if Islam is the original religion given to Adam I'm okay with it, but look what man has done to it.

[placid]

Hi ILove,

To continue from Post 20:

Quote: There are differences, of course, in the following.

• The deification of Jesus

Response: --- Yes, that is misunderstood by most, so it has been a divider for a long time.

But are there verses in the Gospels or the Quran that you are referring to?

--- If you don’t find it in Scripture, then it comes from some teaching of man. I agree with you that because Jesus was human, He was not of divinity, --- however, the Word (Logos) came down from heaven and 'indwelt' Jesus, and the Word was the Manifestation of divinity, or ‘deity,’ in Jesus.

There is no place where Jesus said, “I am God,” --- but men have referred to Him as being both God and man, --- but that comes from the faulty doctrine of trinity, which I have often spoken about. --- The Scripture says that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, therefore, He was human, --- from the earth. --- He had no human father, which made Him different, but still human.

--- But God ‘brought Him into being,’ as it says ‘When God determines a thing, He says “Be” – and it is.’

So let’s check some verses in the Quran to see what made Jesus different. –First the announcement in Surah 19:

19 He (the angel) said: "Nay, I am only an apostle from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed."

--- This was the ‘holy son’ that God ordained, and the body was human from Mary. --- Then It says in Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

Notice that it was the ‘Word’ that came down from heaven and indwelt Jesus that was the divinity from God. This may be difficult to understand, but Jesus was born on earth, so he was human, --- but what God sent down from heaven was not God Himself, --- as so many say, but the Word (Logos) who was with God from the beginning and was a Manifestation of God. --- So here we have the human Jesus, and the divinity of the Word from heaven, indwelling the human body, and He was called Christ Jesus.

The Trinitarians often say that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God.

God didn’t leave heaven while Jesus was on earth, and Jesus didn’t change from a human body to a divine body, --- so I have said to some that, “Yes, Jesus was 100 % human so He wasn’t deity, --- but He was 'indwelt' by the Word, who was sent from God, as it said above in 3:45.

The ‘deifying’ of Jesus was part of the faulty doctrine of trinity, which we will deal with next.

Placid

[placid]

Hi Ilove,

To continue,

To find some understanding of what we both believe, --- we need to consider certain things about who Jesus was, as well as, who He was not.

--- (I will perhaps arouse the Trinitarians in saying that Jesus was born on earth, and was made lower than the angels, as the Scripture says below, but, ---)

While I said “The ‘deifying’ of Jesus was part of the faulty doctrine of trinity,” --- I did not say there were not ‘three in heaven,’ and they were always of Deity. --- We have to deal with this later, but, --- let’s look at the role Jesus played before we go on:

In saying that Jesus was 100% human, --- He did not change and become deity, but He was the Human Vessel that God used to introduce His plan of Salvation.--- The Word (Logos) could not be seen by human eyes, so had to appear in the human Vessel of Jesus.

--- The Word came from above and indwelt the body of Jesus, so Jesus was not the Word, but the Vessel. --- The Personage of the Word 'took over' the Vessel of Jesus and Manifested God through Him

And it says that in Hebrews 2:

9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.”

--- (Had Jesus come as an angel, He could have performed all the miracles and taught the disciples, as He did, --- but as an angel he couldn’t die. --- So Jesus had to come in a flesh and blood body in which He would die on earth.)

Since Jesus was faithful in all things, it says this further of Him in Philippians 2:

8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

--- (So, anyone who speaks against Jesus will have to answer to God.)

Jesus did not come down from heaven, but was caught up to heaven and He is there to intercede on behalf of Christians. We pray to God in the name of Jesus, we pray for healing in the name of Jesus, we pray for deliverance from evil spirits in the name of Jesus, so the work of God that was done through Jesus on earth, is still being done by His followers, --- Like the miracles of Surah 3:49, and 5:110.

Jesus is still our Advocate in heaven and it says in Hebrews 7:

25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Placid

[placid]

Hi Ilove,

--- Before we go further in the ‘trinity,’ we have to be clear on a few things from the Scriptures, that oppose our harmony as Jews, Christians and Muslims.

As you know in our previous discussions, whether you agreed with me or disagreed with me, I always use the Scriptures, and the Quran.

--- If what we are studying is not in the Bible or the Quran, then it isn’t from God.

I believe it this way, --- if there is no basis for a belief in the Scriptures that God gave us to follow, then it has come about by Satan’s influence on men, --- which they then added to the teaching of the Word of God.

Let me give you an example. --- The Jews were God’s chosen people. --- God wanted them to be a holy nation so that they would draw other nations to God by their good example, and with the evidence that God was blessing them as a nation, because of their faithfulness to Him.

God wanted to use the Children of Israel as a ‘means’ to an ‘end.’

--- Instead, the Jews became disobedient to God, so that God could no longer bless them in their sin, --- but in pride they claimed to be the chosen of God, they felt they were the ‘end’ in themselves, so they felt 'superior to others,' --- (and some Jews may still feel they are.)

They began to add to the laws and teach men so, which became ‘the control of the minds of men to what they taught, rather than to the true word of God.’

--- In the Quran it reflects this when they rejected Jesus, --- not recognizing Him as their Messiah, and it says this in Surah 4:

155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"; --- Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe.

--- (They had the attitude that they could defy God’s law, and that they were still the ‘chosen of God,’ because they were the keepers of the Scriptures.)

When Jesus came, He taught ‘equality of men,’ and commissioned Apostles to take the Gospel out from Jerusalem, to the world. --- So the Message of God’s Salvation was spread from man to man. --- Nobody was superior.

About 300 AD, the Roman Government with the help of some compromising bishops formed the Roman Catholic Church, and declared itself to be ‘The Church.’

They fashioned it after the Pharisees with their hierarchy, and they adopted the same attitude of pride, ‘that they were the Church of God.’ --- They wrote new doctrines for their priests to teach to others, so they again, (like the Jews before them), --- took ‘control of the minds of men by what they taught, rather than to the true word of God.’

--- But they persecuted the true followers of Jesus, who continued to teach the same Gospel Message, and God preserved them through the ages, in spite of persecution, because Christ is the head of the Church, which is still guided by the Holy Spirit of God.

--- (But you can see that some today still claim the superiority of the RC Church with their misleading doctrines that have no basis in the Scriptures.)

Then Muhammad came to bring revival to his own people, to destroy idolatry and return them to faith in One God, which he did. --- He taught ‘the brotherhood of believers,’ and didn’t preach ‘superiority over others.’ --- He left them the Quran, --- and the legacy of his family. --- However, --- men destroyed the legacy of his family, and moved the people away from the simple message of the Quran.

--- And, is it not true that the following Imams, that emphasized education and philosophy as written in hadiths, have put that teaching on par with the Quran itself?

Is it not true that in claiming Muhammad as the last Prophet, the ‘superior attitude’ developed that all mankind were to become Muslims in order to be right with God?

And is it not true that the teachers have said, ‘No one can understand the Quran without superior interpretation? --- That each verse has six or seven meanings, so that no one can understand it from reading it on their own?

So this is the same, ‘control of the minds of men to what they taught, rather than to the true word of God,’ --- is it not?

And when I come along and say that we can understand the word of God from both the Bible and the Quran --- there is opposition, --- but on the basis of what has been taught ‘from outside of the Quran,’ --- because the Quran says “It is a plain Scripture in Arabic," is that not right? --- Notice this verse in Surah 41:

3 “A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; - a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand.”

I want to give you something I saved, from some time ago, on Shiachat:

(Quote from Shiachat):

Gamal Al-Banna is the brother of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan Al-Banna. Yet, far from sharing his Islamist ideology, Gamal calls for a genuine reform within Islam, one which would favour a nuanced interpretation of the Koran.

He believes the history of Protestant reform should serve as an example to help what he calls Islam’s ‘downward spiral.’

Islamic intellectuals have an opportunity to do what ‘Martin Luther achieved for Christianity 500 years ago,’ he says.

It is in his office in Abbasiya in central Cairo, surrounded by 13,000 books, that Banna welcomes the views of the religious and the secular.

Banna calls for a return to basics.

‘Let’s go back to the Koran, only the Koran but all of the Koran,’ he says adding that one must not deny the book’s contradictions, or its difficulties of interpretation. (End of quote).

---(I agree with this, but I will wait for your comments.)

Placid

[baqar]

I have often said that if Islam is the original religion given to Adam I'm okay with it, but look what man has done to it.

 

I don't think you understood what I meant.  

 

What I meant was that a religion does not change. It is the understanding of those who claim to be its followers that changes. To an external observer, it might appear that the religion has changed.  But it doesn't.

 

Barring perhaps a very few, no single individual follows the true religion that he claims to follow - be it is Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever.

[Son of Placid]

I don't think you understood what I meant.  

 

What I meant was that a religion does not change. It is the understanding of those who claim to be its followers that changes. To an external observer, it might appear that the religion has changed.  But it doesn't.

 

Barring perhaps a very few, no single individual follows the true religion that he claims to follow - be it is Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever.

That is exactly what I meant. Islam has not changed from the time of Adam, yet man has added, taken away, played with, corrupted, and just plain made it to easy to think you are following God as He intended while never getting close enough to God to know what that really means.

[baqar]

Yes, of course.But I wonder why you mentioned Islam alone. I would have thought that applies to every single religion on the face of the earth. 

[IloveImamHussain]

Hi Placid

 

I am sorry that because of personal problems and difficulties, I have not yet been able to reply so far. The topic of harmony is indeed a very important topic. Having known you all these years, it is not difficult t see that you are a man of peace, always in the search for harmony among people. I have already given you a brief account of what I think are the major points of agreement and disagreement between Christianity and Islam.

 

However, I think religion is not necessarily the best vehicle for peace in the world. While we search for points of agreement, we are bound to hit disagreements that undermine and undo any gains we might make by discussing agreements.

 

My humble opinion is that religion is not quite the right platform to seek harmony among people. The best way to seek inter-faith harmony, in my view, is not to talk about it. The less we talk about religion, the more chance of peace in the world. Unfortunately, that is so difficult in this Internet culture.

 

In my view, the best approach to inter-faith harmony is given by Imam Ali's definition of Islam - 'obedience to God and affection for His creation'. That attitude is the best remedy for achieving peace in the world. If you develop affection for His creation, you will set aside any differences that religion might cause.

 

 Imam Ali seems to promote the same approach in his famous letter to his governor-designate, Mailik Ashtar -

 

'Remember, Malik, among your subjects, there are two kinds of people - those of your faith are your brothers in faith. The others are human beings just like you. 

 

'Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human flesh is heir to. They commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their aid and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah to show mercy and forgiveness to you.'  

 

This approach can only be achieved if we forget which religion the other  person belongs to. As long as we see one another as belonging to one religion or another, we will always get into difficulties. I do appreciate your sincerity in this matter but I believe it is best not to talk about religious differences at all.

 

As for the point you made about Imam Hasan Banna, I am not sure which school of thought he belonged to. I am aware that he was the founder of 'the Muslim Brotherhood', which today is known as an extremist organization in Egypt. He was a Sunni but I am not sure which  particular sub-sect. As you are probably aware, there are many different schools of thought among Sunnis.

 

Anyway, we Shias cannot fully accept Banna's proposition - ‘Let’s go back to the Koran, only the Koran but all of the Koran’. And the simple reason, as I have explained to you earlier, is that the Quran  is not self-explanatory. There are  heaps of things that are impossible to understand. And that is why there are differences of opinion among the various sects about the meanings of various verses.

 

The style is extremely conversational probably because Muslims were supposed to turn to the progeny of the Prophet for guidance, which most of them did not do. We Shias look for explanations in the words of our Imams. I think we have already discussed the difficulties of understanding the Quran before and I will not go into it all over again.

 

 

And as for the 'contradictions' that Hasan Banna refers to, indeed, those who fail to understand the intended meaning of the Quran, will always find heaps of contradictions. Even I could give you some, on the basis of a literal reading of the Quran.  But do those who claim to have found contradictions, really understand the intended meaning of the verses that they quote? I would say - no.

 

Regards

 

ILIH

[placid]

Thank you for your honest response. I accept that and realize that not all are studious of the Scriptures. --- I will not apologize for being a learner.

However, I want to point out that you misread the statement from Gamal Al-Banna. --- He is the ‘ brother’ of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, who was Hasan Al-Banna, --- as it said in the first line.
Here it is again that you might read it with the right understanding.


(Quote from Shiachat):
Gamal Al-Banna is the brother of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan Al-Banna. Yet, far from sharing his Islamist ideology, Gamal calls for a genuine reform within Islam, one which would favour a nuanced interpretation of the Koran.
He believes the history of Protestant reform should serve as an example to help what he calls Islam’s ‘downward spiral.’

Islamic intellectuals have an opportunity to do what ‘Martin Luther achieved for Christianity 500 years ago,’ he says.

It is in his office in Abbasiya in central Cairo, surrounded by 13,000 books, that Banna welcomes the views of the religious and the secular.

Banna calls for a return to basics.
‘Let’s go back to the Koran, only the Koran but all of the Koran,’ he says adding that one must not deny the book’s contradictions, or its difficulties of interpretation. (End of quote).

[IloveImamHussain]

Hi Placid

 

Yes, I am sorry I did misread which Banna you meant in your last email. 

 

In any case, it does not matter which Banna was meant, because we Shias do not believe that the Quran is enough for us, for the reasons I have already stated.

 

As for Banna's other comment that Islamic intellectuals have an opportunity to do what ‘Martin Luther achieved for Christianity 500 years ago,’ he should perhaps first try to reform his own Sunni groups who, from the dawn of Islam, have produced some of the worst beasts that history can boast of.

 

That has also been passed down to us in modern times. As everyone knows, almost every single terrorist in and after 9/11 was a Sunni, many coming from the Salafi sub-sect. 13,00 Shias were killed in Iraq by Sunnis in just one year - 2013. And that figure does not include Pakistan and Afghanistan. On the other hand, not one single Sunni was killed by a Shia in any of those three countries.

 

Banna would do well if he made a push towards reforming his own psychos who have been told by their scholars that killing a Shia would give them a passport to heaven. I believe we Shias are much less of a worry to anyone.

 

Regards

 

ILIH 

[Son of Placid]

Yes, of course.But I wonder why you mentioned Islam alone. I would have thought that applies to every single religion on the face of the earth. 

That would depend where every single religion originated.

I'm going on the pretense that everything every prophet since Adam taught is the same religion. The first real time it's ever mentioned as a religion is in the Quran, the name given is Islam.

[placid]

A question --- Islam simply means “Surrender” or “Submission,” does it not?

2:130 And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.

131 When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! he said: I have surrendered to the Lord of the Worlds.

132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

The same verses in Yusuf Ali:

2:130 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

131 Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."

132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

Another place where the term is used is in reference to the disciples in 3:

52 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

53 Our Lord (God)! - We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth).

52 Yusuf Ali: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.”

53 "Our Lord (God)! - we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

The word Islam means “Surrender” and the word Muslim means “A surrendered one,” --- is that not right?

Since it came from Abraham we only consider harmony within the three religions of Abraham, --- where our faith is in One God, Maker of heaven and earth.

We who have surrendered our will and purpose to God can be called Muslim on the basis of 3:52, --- but it means no more than ‘surrender,’ or ‘submission,’ --- does it?

Placid

[IloveImamHussain]

The word Islam means “Surrender” and the word Muslim means “A surrendered one,” --- is that not right?

 

Hi Placid

 

Yes, 'Islam' does mean 'submission (to the Will of God)'.

 

Since it came from Abraham we only consider harmony within the three religions of Abraham, --- where our faith is in One God, Maker of heaven and earth.

 

 

I do not see why we cannot have harmony with people of other religions as well. Harmony depends on the desire for peace, not on being under the umbrella of the one Abrahamic code. 

 

We who have surrendered our will and purpose to God can be called Muslim on the basis of 3:52, --- but it means no more than ‘surrender,’ or ‘submission,’ --- does it?

 

 

That is more than enough, I suppose.

 

'Surrender' to the Will of God is extremely difficult, Placid. 

 

Being a Muslim, Christian or Jew by faith does not make one a true 'Muslim' (submitter).

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And continuing with my last post, here is something else Mr Banna could get cracking on.

 

As you can see from the news item below, the extremist Salafi / Sunni Islam which believes in oppressing the weak and killing Shias, needs attention very badly,

 

Please read the following.

 

BREAKING NEWS

 

Afghanistan is set to pass a law that will allow people to attack their wives, sisters and daughters without fear of punishment.

The law will stop relatives of an attacker from testifying against them -- effectively silencing women who experience domestic violence, along with other members of their family who have witnessed the abuse. If this law is approved, it will undo years of hard-won progress achieved by courageous Afghan women fighting for their rights.

 

In a country blighted by ‘honor killings’ and child marriage, we know that most violence against women in Afghanistan takes place within the family -- that’s why this law will be so devastating.

 

Just over two years ago, the world was shocked by the case of Sahar Gul. Sold into marriage and chained in a basement, the 12 year-old was starved, burned, tortured and sexually assaulted by her in-laws when she refused to become a prostitute for them.

 

When Sahar Gul was finally discovered, she was so broken she couldn’t even walk. Under the law being proposed, her abusers would likely walk free.

Edited February 14, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

[placid]

Hi ILove,

Quote from Post 34:

I do not see why we cannot have harmony with people of other religions as well. Harmony depends on the desire for peace, not on being under the umbrella of the one Abrahamic code.

Response: --- We may well have friendship or peace (harmony) with others, but if our Goal is to serve God, to be with Him one day, we need to follow God’s way, which is the way of Faith and surrender, that God honored in Abraham.

--- There is a verse that verifies the former Scriptures in Surah 5:

68 Say (Muhammad): "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." --- It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

--- This adds another dimension in the Pickthall translation, Surah 5:

68 Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. --- That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.

--- (The Surah revealed that what was revealed to Muhammad up until Surah 5, also caused disbelief and contention among the Jews, but it says the Christians ‘recognized the truth,’ Surah 5:

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle (Muhammad), thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.”

--- This verifies that the three religions from Abraham are the ones that God has guided, --- however, most people have strayed away from the original teaching in each of our three religions.

(I said) We who have surrendered our will and purpose to God can be called Muslim on the basis of 3:52, --- but it means no more than ‘surrender,’ or ‘submission,’ --- does it?

(You said) --- That is more than enough, I suppose.

'Surrender' to the Will of God is extremely difficult, Placid.

Being a Muslim, Christian or Jew by faith does not make one a true 'Muslim' (submitter).

Response: --- That muddies the water a little bit. --- To say that true submitters are Muslims by Faith, and surrender to God’s will, ---

But then you say. --- ‘There is another aspect of being a Muslim.’ ???

What percentage of people in Islamic countries, would you say, are --- “True submitted Muslims?”