Leave This Damned Place Of Yours.

[Hasan0404]

(salam)

 

Every now and then I hear people saying, “Leave your Damn Country and go somewhere safe”. They may be saying this out of their concern about fellow shias, but this hurts me. Concerns for safety are appreciated but isn’t it our duty to spread the message and make our place a heaven for the Qaim ajf? Arent we supposed to care for our people ( for me the commoners, the poor are the people, not the elite), bring about positive change in the society despite the obstacles.

 

Many of SCrs here live in Peaceful places, they may not have seen the severed bodies, unexpected Booms, but I have seen such sights and instead of thinking about fleeing, my being Shia and my being Pashtoon a feeling of steadfastness and revenge rooted in my heart and mind.

 

I know my people, I know the code of Pashtoons they abide my even now in any places, I know the potential in them in serving the purpose they want too. Their code is sacred, noble, few things need to be moderated by Islamic thought. I wonder Pashtoons being the soldiers of Qaim ajf, I believe they will prove worthy as Shias (saying this from my experience of Shiite Pashtoons). They need to be informed, they need to be told the truth, they need to be convinced. Their simplicity gets exploited; their simplicity needs to be turned to awareness. It will remain my wish for the whole of my life.

 

This was just an example from among many of Pakistan, my country.

 

Why don’t brothers from the peaceful places help us out morally instead of asking us to flee? Isnt it like accepting defeat from the powers of evil?

 

What will happen if each of us keeps on leaving our place? Those who can afford to leave will leave behind those who cant afford leaving, and will be bled to death by every way possible.

 

I will like to die on my soil than seeking fleeing to somewhere peaceful and die there.

 

Pray for your Oppressed Brethren.

 

(Wasalam)

[Waiting for HIM]

Salam,

 

Brother, you are talking two things and got me confused. Are we talking about Pashtuns or are we talking about the Shia?

 

Pashtuns as the core of Imam's army? What makes you think that? The most stiff resistances so far have been put up by Iranians and Lebanese against modern form of colonization. In the past, the Shia of UP, India and Banglore, India were the ones who put the fiercest resistance to British empire.

 

100 years ago, Punjabis and Pashtuns were the ones who became the fodder for British to put down the local Indian Muslims and Hindus uprising.

For past 40 years, Pashtuns and now Punjabis are fighting the wars for Imperialists, sometimes against Russians, sometimes against Afghans, sometimes against Pakistan.  

 

I don't see the connection here.

 

As far as Pashtunwali (or the code), I've not seem more hypocritical people than Pashtuns here in the West. The most naked, mostly morally bankrupt people of South Asian immigrants come out of Pashtun people. Maybe its different for Shia and may be I'm generalizing some.

 

I've great respect for peple of Parachinar and the Turi/Bangash tribes. So you might help us learn if Shia Pashtuns are a different track than those of Sunni/Wahabi Pashtuns.

[notme]

Thank you for posting this.

It is easy to say leave when you aren't the one being uprooted. As you said, they mean well, and only wish to ease your suffering. I will remember your people in my duas. I wish I knew more that I could do.

[Hasan0404]

Salam,

 

Brother, you are talking two things and got me confused. Are we talking about Pashtuns or are we talking about the Shia?

Pashtuns as the core of Imam's army? What makes you think that?

 

Wasalam

 

There is nothing to get confused about. I am talking about Pashtoons as Shias and soldiers in service of Qaim ajf.

I wish all of them to be in service of Qaim ajf no matter how.

100 years ago, Punjabis and Pashtuns were the ones who became the fodder for British to put down the local Indian Muslims and Hindus uprising.

For past 40 years, Pashtuns and now Punjabis are fighting the wars for Imperialists, sometimes against Russians, sometimes against Afghans, sometimes against Pakistan.  

That is what i mentioned as "their simplicity being exploited", and an end must be put to that.

As far as Pashtunwali (or the code), I've not seem more hypocritical people than Pashtuns here in the West. The most naked, mostly morally bankrupt people of South Asian immigrants come out of Pashtun people. Maybe its different for Shia and may be I'm generalizing some.

 

I've great respect for peple of Parachinar and the Turi/Bangash tribes. So you might help us learn if Shia Pashtuns are a different track than those of Sunni/Wahabi Pashtuns.

Then you havent seen Pashtoons who abide by the code in real terms. Though a few things need moderation eg "badal" or Revenge/Justice part.

 

Overall the points of the code are the major Islamic values. What I mean to convey is that a base for being a shia is already there, all that is needed

 

is focused effort in educating them.

 

The believe I have in their potential is because of the struggle and survival of the very few Shia Pashtoon Tribes you mentioned.

 

100 years ago, Punjabis and Pashtuns were the ones who became the fodder for British to put down the local Indian Muslims and Hindus uprising.

For past 40 years, Pashtuns and now Punjabis are fighting the wars for Imperialists, sometimes against Russians, sometimes against Afghans, sometimes against Pakistan.  

 

And I would like to know what events are you pointing at?

Edited January 27, 2014 by Hasan0404

[Marbles]

"If you are so unlucky as to live in Pakistan, you might as well flush yourself down the toilet." This sums up the attitude of so many people, including expat Pakistanis, towards those who can potentially leave but do not, for any reason.

 

I'd like to broaden the scope of the arguably well meant suggestion to leave.

 

Pakistan is a country of 180+ million out of which roughly 15-20 percent are Shias. It is also the 6th most populous country in the world. On average, only the Shia population of Pakistan would outnumber the total populations of half the countries of the world individually. 

 

I want to ask those who suggest us to leave en masse. Go where, pray? And who's going to take how many us, pray?

 

Mass migration is absolutely untenable even if every country of the world opened its already-closed doors to us.

 

A sort of patronising, demeaning mindset has developed, mostly among expat Pakistanis in the West, who look down upon those who stick to the places of their origin.

 

If you are "left behind" you must be not good enough to "make it" to the glorious West, goes the presumption. You are not "successful" (as if 'success' was synonymous with having a job in the glorious West!), you are to be pitied.

 

What this does not take into account is that the competition to "make it" is only between those who are willing to leave and have officially tried.

 

Those excellent professionals, businessmen, doctors, bankers, engineers, blah blah blah who live in Pakistan with reasonably good standard of life, who have families and friends of generations to live together with, they don't want to be uprooted to an alien city in an alien country, provided they have relative peace and a modicum of security. They aren't "left behind" because they are less than some Mr Khan or Mr Chaudhry working in some Birmingham hospital or Washington bank.

 

That said, migration is an integral part of the human condition. Whenever life becomes extremely difficult, a chunk of the population migrates. When you have direct danger to your life (due to personal threats or violence in your street and at your doorstep), it becomes a psychological (if not logical) necessity to seek safety, wherever you may find it. Insofar as we are faced with such imminent dangers, one has to take a step and migrate, out of country or internally (like those hundreds of Pashtun families which have migrated to Punjab or Sindh).

 

But please, do not tell us we are 'wasting' our lives; do no tell us about the charms of the developed world we are already very much aware of; do not be so arrogant as to assume that the peaceful cities you have come to inhabit will always retain their peace and calm - who knows there might come a time when you have to reverse migrate in large numbers.

 

And please, stop feeling sorry for those who want to stick to their homes, families, friends, coreligionists, languages, cultures and trying hard to make a decent living, doing all they could to be peaceful and patience in the ugly face of war and violence.

 

 

PS: Hasan, thanks for providing me with an opening for this rant! It's been building up inside my chest for a while haha.

 

@ WfH, please do not turn this thread into an electronic battleground between various Pakistani ethnic groups.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Marbles

[Marbles]

Man, who threw this thread into this dead subforum?

 

It was best left in Off topic. It has very off topic tones anyway. It's not about politics.

[baqar]

Unfortunately, many expat Indians and Pakistanis have lost any real interest in the welfare of the stricken people back in their homeland.

 

Muslims or not, Shias or not - it is the duty of every one of us -  wherever we might be - to spare a thought for those in stress and distress, for the oppressed and depressed, for the hungry and the deprived - wherever they might be. Be they Muslims or non-Muslims.

 

And how much more right do our fellow-countrymen  have over us.

 

But alas, when all goes well our way, we detach ourselves from those we leave behind, gloating over our own good fortune.

 

Nothing else seems to matter.  Very sad indeed!   

Brother Hasan 404, I truly pray for everyone  in pain and anguish, for Shias, who are the target of cowardly attacks in Pakistan and for the hungry, the destitute, the abused and the exploited in India and everywhere in the world.

 

May God give you and all of us the courage to turn the tables on enemies of peace.

 

Insha 'Allah

[Mlle. Advice]

What the OP is talking about applies to many other developing countries in the Middle east and Asia as well. There are those people who have migrated to the US, Canada, or Europe who are doing better off than their counterparts back home, and do not even think of sending home a letter or postcard. These people once they've left think do not give so much as a backwards glance and pretend that they were "Western" from their birth and do nothing for the poor back home.  A few of these people have even become successful and 'millionaires', and do not bother to send home $1. These people ought to have shame because they have none.

 

Those who choose to stay in their country do so for the sake of 'patriotism', for the 'betterment of their country', and thinking that they could 'make a difference'. As they get older, and their self-interest grows, in fact they change their minds and look for ways to leave the country.

[The Green Knight]

Why don’t brothers from the peaceful places help us out morally instead of asking us to flee?

 

"If you are so unlucky as to live in Pakistan, you might as well flush yourself down the toilet." This sums up the attitude of so many people, including expat Pakistanis, towards those who can potentially leave but do not, for any reason.

 

These expat Pakis "fled" long ago and for greener pastures, not for these terrible difficulties our nation faces today. It only gives them a reassurance that they or their elders also made the right decision after all for the not-as-right reason which was financial gain. So we are oppressed by the Taliban who are foreign while they are foreigners being oppressed by white trash while they serve them and build their dreams.

 

They also want you to flee now so they can feel their exodus for better grass justified. And to this discussion I always add one thing. What will happen when its your turn? Rest assured that it will come. Just like they switch off the lights of media coverage over a ME country and conduct mass slaughter of humans, humanity and human rights, they can and will just as easily switch off the lights of camera coverage over their own countries when its your turn.

 

I would much rather die on my feet than serve on my knees. I know it doesn't make sense to them. They made their choice and to them I say GL&HF. :p

[Waiting for HIM]

What the OP is talking about applies to many other developing countries in the Middle east and Asia as well. There are those people who have migrated to the US, Canada, or Europe who are doing better off than their counterparts back home, and do not even think of sending home a letter or postcard. These people once they've left think do not give so much as a backwards glance and pretend that they were "Western" from their birth and do nothing for the poor back home.  A few of these people have even become successful and 'millionaires', and do not bother to send home $1. These people ought to have shame because they have none.

 

Those who choose to stay in their country do so for the sake of 'patriotism', for the 'betterment of their country', and thinking that they could 'make a difference'. As they get older, and their self-interest grows, in fact they change their minds and look for ways to leave the country.

This could be very true for the diaspora of Iran and Arab countries.

 

A lots of Pakistani Shia (and even non-Shia) I know are very much involved with the philanthropy back home.

 

People contribute in tons of aid directly to the charities running orphanages, schools, and hospitals.

 

To the dismay of many Arab/Iranian Shia on SC, the biggest protest movements in the west for the issues of Shia (Bahrain, Syria, Eastern Hijaz aka S.Arabia) are populated and enlivened by Pakistani Shias. When we protest for the protection of Hazara or Afghan Shias, there is seldom an Afghani or a Hazara Shia seen in the protests. :) .

 

I agree, there is still a lot to be done but Shia nation is exhausted here or there with the amount of death and destruction brought on us as a nation, which needs a fundamental change in the way Shia organize themselves politically. Which will make me give a speech on WilayaFaqih and need of Shia political movements in Pakistan but then those ^^^ old uncles of you would butcher me here.

[The Green Knight]

^ In concept, WF is more than great to fulfill the Shia nation's needs like this one. It is decent in practice inside Iran. But on the global scale, obviously it is practically useless. It won't matter how unanimously the Rahbar is accepted as the WF in Pakistan, he does very little if anything for us. In sharp contrast, the Saudi royals viciously, actively and directly oversee the bloody little triumph of their zombie hoards worldwide.

 

I hope none hate me for pointing out the obvious. And no I'm not complaining nor I care for the Rahbar's help. Albeit the Rahbar and other powers and silent onlookers will probably have to pay in kind in the next stage of life. Tptb are all against Shia currently. God loves martyrdom, extreme patience and hardships for forgiveness for His believers in this reality. This is how it has always been on this planet.

[Marbles]

Those who choose to stay in their country do so for the sake of 'patriotism', for the 'betterment of their country', and thinking that they could 'make a difference'.

 

You have essentially said the same thing the thread is complaining about; implying that those who choose to stay behind do so out of some misplaced idealism and misfired emotion.

 

Although some who choose to stay definitely think like this but it's not about patriotism or even making a difference. It's about staying in the familiar and intimate surroundings, with people you grew up with, with things you grew up doing, and which you want to continue. It's about having a secure identity in the network of kin, being with people you think about and care for, and participating in their lives and letting them take part in yours. It's also about self-interest seen in way other than exclusively financial.

 

I personally couldn't care less about flag-waving patriotism or any other fiction.

 

Of course, second gen migrants can't relate to what I'm saying. They also have it easy because their decisions to leave or stay had been made by their parents so they are kind of having to explain away and justify their existence in some country other than the country of their parents' origin.

 

Everyone has a different idea of a good life and what they expect out of it. Those who left for better economies and peaceful backyards shouldn't be thought badly of; just like those who stick to their origins shouldn't be patronised or belittled.

 

The barber I go to expanded his business five-fold in the last three years. You can see happiness beam from his large brown eyes. He has a family he is supporting handsomely now. This individual isn't any less than some other Pakistani flipping burgers in a joint in Chicago, pretending back home that he's boss of a bank earning planeloads.

 

As they get older, and their self-interest grows, in fact they change their minds and look for ways to leave the country.

 

In fact, in my experience, the younger you are the more eager you are to leave because you are full of energy and have the promise of life ahead you. The older you get the weaker your desire to leave.

[notme]

 

In fact, in my experience, the younger you are the more eager you are to leave because you are full of energy and have the promise of life ahead you. The older you get the weaker your desire to leave.

The older you get, the more you realize roots matter.

 

The more people you have (a natural occurrence as time passes) the less willing you are to leave them behind.

[Mlle. Advice]

You have essentially said the same thing the thread is complaining about; implying that those who choose to stay behind do so out of some misplaced idealism and misfired emotion.

 

Although some who choose to stay definitely think like this but it's not about patriotism or even making a difference. It's about staying in the familiar and intimate surroundings, with people you grew up with, with things you grew up doing, and which you want to continue. It's about having a secure identity in the network of kin, being with people you think about and care for, and participating in their lives and letting them take part in yours. It's also about self-interest seen in way other than exclusively financial.

 

I personally couldn't care less about flag-waving patriotism or any other fiction.

 

Of course, second gen migrants can't relate to what I'm saying. They also have it easy because their decisions to leave or stay had been made by their parents so they are kind of having to explain away and justify their existence in some country other than the country of their parents' origin.

 

Everyone has a different idea of a good life and what they expect out of it. Those who left for better economies and peaceful backyards shouldn't be thought badly of; just like those who stick to their origins shouldn't be patronised or belittled.

You're right, I actually tailored it to Arabs cuz I thought the OP was talking directly about only Pakistanis.

 

Good point, those who often leave to other Western countries, are often thought of as some sort of 'traitors' to their country. Because instead of staying in it and working out for the best, they chose to sell it altogether and just get away. I think that would only apply if the nationals went to an enemy or rival state. Like the avalanche of Russian expatriates who flew from the Soviet Union during the Cold War in the 80s onwards (and maybe even from before then) and settled in the US. Some Russians back home thought of them as "traitors" to their homeland and to communism, cuz they preferred to live in a democratic society. 

 

 

 

This individual isn't any less than some other Pakistani flipping burgers in a joint in Chicago, pretending back home that he's boss of a bank earning planeloads.

Don't you just find it hilarious when they're flipping burgers at MacDo and all the time they have you thinking they're working for HSBC bank??  :lol:

 

 

 

In fact, in my experience, the younger you are the more eager you are to leave because you are full of energy and have the promise of life ahead you. The older you get the weaker your desire to leave.

I think the youth would be eager to leave because of that infamous false promise of a free life in America.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Mlle. Advice

[Marbles]

^

 

Political compulsions apart, any country which at a time has more mouths to feed than it can will have some of its people emigrate from it. In that it is the country which should be seen as 'traitor' to its people, not the other way round. It is for this reason I do not set store by our modern-day noxious notion of 'patriotism'. However, I'm all for patriotism if it means loving your people wherever they may be and helping the less well off in whatever little way possible.

 

I find the hate against émigrés as much revolting as the mockery directed at those who stick to their countries. Simply put, no group should see itself as somehow superior than the other.

[Wahdat]

I dont understand the sacredness of Pashtunwali (tribal) code. Maybe brother Hasan404 can shed some light on this.

 

Why have such a code when you have Islam and why have Islam when you have such a code? A car drives better with one driver and one steering wheel...no? the minute you add 2 drivers and 2 steering wheels in a car is the minute that car is set on a collision course. Thats how I see the mix of Pashtunwali and Islam.

[Hasan0404]

I dont understand the sacredness of Pashtunwali (tribal) code. Maybe brother Hasan404 can shed some light on this.

 

Why have such a code when you have Islam and why have Islam when you have such a code? A car drives better with one driver and one steering wheel...no? the minute you add 2 drivers and 2 steering wheels in a car is the minute that car is set on a collision course. Thats how I see the mix of Pashtunwali and Islam.

Every tribal entity has a code of ethics which is considered sacred by the tribals, and it is fervently observed.

 

Same goes for Pashtunwali. Look at the points of this particular code you will find them honorable.

 

There are many examples where Islam let the people keep their ethical code because it didnt contradict Islam,

 

and in this code no provision is against Islam (again I will say few things need to be addressed in depth).

 

So its not like adding extra steering wheels but refurbishing an already present car. The culture has norms

 

which are appreciated by Islam, as I said I believe a base is already there for a strong future.

[Rohulah Khorasani]

Salam,

 

Brother, you are talking two things and got me confused. Are we talking about Pashtuns or are we talking about the Shia?

 

Pashtuns as the core of Imam's army? What makes you think that? The most stiff resistances so far have been put up by Iranians and Lebanese against modern form of colonization. In the past, the Shia of UP, India and Banglore, India were the ones who put the fiercest resistance to British empire.

 

100 years ago, Punjabis and Pashtuns were the ones who became the fodder for British to put down the local Indian Muslims and Hindus uprising.

For past 40 years, Pashtuns and now Punjabis are fighting the wars for Imperialists, sometimes against Russians, sometimes against Afghans, sometimes against Pakistan.  

 

I don't see the connection here.

 

As far as Pashtunwali (or the code), I've not seem more hypocritical people than Pashtuns here in the West. The most naked, mostly morally bankrupt people of South Asian immigrants come out of Pashtun people. Maybe its different for Shia and may be I'm generalizing some.

 

I've great respect for peple of Parachinar and the Turi/Bangash tribes. So you might help us learn if Shia Pashtuns are a different track than those of Sunni/Wahabi Pashtuns.

Agree brother, but where you from i dont recognise the flag

[Wahdat]

Every tribal entity has a code of ethics which is considered sacred by the tribals, and it is fervently observed.

 

Same goes for Pashtunwali. Look at the points of this particular code you will find them honorable.

 

There are many examples where Islam let the people keep their ethical code because it didnt contradict Islam,

 

and in this code no provision is against Islam (again I will say few things need to be addressed in depth).

 

So its not like adding extra steering wheels but refurbishing an already present car. The culture has norms

 

which are appreciated by Islam, as I said I believe a base is already there for a strong future.

 

doesnt the very concept of tribe run contrary to the universal fraternity of the ummah?  The concepts of hospitality, bravery, righteousness, honor, respect etc are universal and included in Islam and, I believe, one does not have to have a code to be welcoming to guests, brave at times of adversity, or respect their elders. This very code of Pashtunwali, first and foremost, draws a line between a Pashtun and non Pashtun Muslim. Furthermore other concepts of justice or bravery etc are not as properly canonized as it is in Islam. For example, few years back around 30 people in Khost province of Afghanistan was killed over a chicken whose ownership was disputed. And the age old civil war among Pashtuns is another example. 

The way I see it is that whatever morality that the code prescribes has already been included in Islam and in a far better way. Pashtunwali is like a unicycle while Islam is a spaceship in terms of complexity which brings the very utility of this code into question.

 

Lastly, its like an etc steering wheel that is locked in one direction. Supposedly, two people fight and the one who is at fault gets killed. According to Islam the man who is defending himself is not at fault. But according to Pashtunwali and the family of the victim that is not so. no?

[Hasan0404]

doesnt the very concept of tribe run contrary to the universal fraternity of the ummah? 

I believe in the same purpose of tribes as described in Quran, which is not contrary to Ummah. Tribes for purpose other than

 

the before said are contrary to Islam indeed.

The concepts of hospitality, bravery, righteousness, honor, respect etc are universal and included in Islam

These concepts are not that universal in the tribes around the world imo, yes in Islam they are.

Furthermore other concepts of justice or bravery etc are not as properly canonized as it is in Islam. For example, few years back around 30 people in Khost province of Afghanistan was killed over a chicken whose ownership was disputed. And the age old civil war among Pashtuns is another example. 

The way I see it is that whatever morality that the code prescribes has already been included in Islam and in a far better way. Pashtunwali is like a unicycle while Islam is a spaceship in terms of complexity which brings the very utility of this code into question.

 

Lastly, its like an etc steering wheel that is locked in one direction. Supposedly, two people fight and the one who is at fault gets killed. According to Islam the man who is defending himself is not at fault. But according to Pashtunwali and the family of the victim that is not so. no?

I already said that there are things which needs ratification. It is a tribal code not a religion to be compared with Islam, it is not above Islam at all.

 

One of the points of my thread is to use what is already present and can be tailored for good, to provide for Truth and Justice.

[Mlle. Advice]

i don't get something , why do Pakistanis mock and look down on those Pakis who chose to stay in Pakistan and not emigrate ??

 

that does not makes sense.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Mlle. Advice

[Wahdat]

I believe in the same purpose of tribes as described in Quran, which is not contrary to Ummah. Tribes for purpose other than

 

the before said are contrary to Islam indeed.

These concepts are not that universal in the tribes around the world imo, yes in Islam they are.

I already said that there are things which needs ratification. It is a tribal code not a religion to be compared with Islam, it is not above Islam at all.

 

One of the points of my thread is to use what is already present and can be tailored for good, to provide for Truth and Justice.

 

For a caveman, anyone outside his cave was a stranger- a potential enemy.

For a tribesman, anyone outside his tribe is a stranger- a potential enemy.

 

The whole point of Tawheed IMO is to get our eyes off one another and unite us under one God. The ensuing effect of tawheed should be abolition, and not creation, of these imaginary lines that are supposed to divide us all.

 

In Afghanistan the Northerners dont have any sort of code but common sense and humanity. If you go there you'd be amazed by hospitality , warmth, kindness and love. The minute you cross over to South you'd be faced with theft, kidnapping, and 1001 other negative acts. And this is not something new or borne of recent wars but an age old problem. The only thing that prohibited the Mughuls to join Central and South Asia into one formidable economic bloc that would have most likely altered the course of history were these codes man- they often robbed caravans, looted passengers etc. Why? because their victims were lay outside the parameters of their so called code.

 

I yet have to see the Pashtunwali code helping Pashtuns themselves in any way shape or form or anyone else around them for that matter. We live in 21st century and tribal system is the norm of the stone age. Lets get out of it. History shows that those who have shed their tribal skins have not lost anything but instead have gained immensely by liberating themselves from the shackles of a stone age system.

[Hasan0404]

 

For a tribesman, anyone outside his tribe is a stranger- a potential enemy.

 

And whose territory is continually threatened by foreigner invaders, then yes.

 

The whole point of Tawheed IMO is to get our eyes off one another and unite us under one God. The ensuing effect of tawheed should be abolition, and not creation, of these imaginary lines that are supposed to divide us all.

I am in full agreement on that, But look how the Concept of Thowheed was tailored to hijack a society by Petro Dollars to

 

counter Soviets, Few Nationalists kept on whistle blowing and trying to make people aware what actually is going in shadows.

 

We have a dilemma of getting exploited in the name of Religion, imo religion can not unite a tribal society on a grass root level,

 

not until people have reached an intellectual level to differentiate pseudo-Islam from real Islam. Till then i think nationalism

 

can do the unity part. Its all about making use of better available options.

.

 The only thing that prohibited the Mughuls to join Central and South Asia into one formidable economic bloc that would have most likely altered the course of history were these codes man- they often robbed caravans, looted passengers etc. Why? because their victims were lay outside the parameters of their so called code.

 

 

Mughals ousted Lodhis to get the throne of Dehli so it was not possible that there be no resistance from Pashtoons. It was a Game of Thrones, nothing more.

I yet have to see the Pashtunwali code helping Pashtuns themselves in any way shape or form or anyone else around them for that matter. We live in 21st century and tribal system is the norm of the stone age. Lets get out of it. History shows that those who have shed their tribal skins have not lost anything but instead have gained immensely by liberating themselves from the shackles of a stone age system.

Would that it was possible (easy and fast) but the process of evolution takes time, esp. getting out of cultural negatives, retaining cultural positives

 

is just fine.

.

I am a big advocate of Unity based on a single Ummah free of the ethnic, cultural and unjust biases. Islam is universal and

 

has the potential but said to say that the same Islam got countered by pseudo-islam invented by power longing human-like

 

creatures. It is very sad that Islam became a tool in the hands of tyrants to divide people and to safeguard their rule.

 

What I mean to say is that these divisions are so complex that we need to address every minute detail.

 

and imo the nationalism breeds from nationalism, as a mean to counter invading nationalism, hence the nationalism of my people

 

as they were constantly being invaded from outside.

[Wahdat]

Hassan, you dont have to defend something because you are told its good or that its the way. If Prophet (SAW) did that as well we would not have Islam today. Fact of the matter is that tribalism separates, it isolates, it makes doing wrong to others (99% of humanity) that lay outside the perimeters of tribe easier. Look at any tribal community anywhere in the world today and you will see that its not healthy. Humanity has long evolved from this system of kinship. In case of Pashtuns it has kept them isolated from those around them and at war with those within them. Horrors are being committed today because of this code. A tribal Waziristani guy in Pakistan feels its his tribal duty to come to Afghanistan and behead 2 brothers (14 and 17) of this Pashtun guy from Paktia who joined the national army for its 200 dollar salary to support his family. We were doing a survey of 350 important Pashtun figures in province level in Afghanistan for this project. And within the six month of the project's duration we were able to interview only 112. The rest were killed..... by who? by fellow tribesmen from Pakistan who saw them as a threat to this code that you defend and justify. Outside this tribal mindset nothing could justify this horror. Thats why it does not happen to any other community around the Pashtuns. And I see nothing but this code, which is (and with all due respect) a hidden idol in ordinary Pashtun psyche responsible for this madness. Throw it away. You have Islam and nothing to worry about.

[Noah-]

 

There are many examples where Islam let the people keep their ethical code because it didnt contradict Islam,

 

 

Every ethnic, every tribe, every culture, from Arabs to Persians, from Turks to Pashtuns, from Africa to Latin America they have their own codes and values.. And yes if they do not contradict Islam, then they are fine...else it is paganism as described in Islam.

 

And as we know, most of Pashtunwali codes, culture and daily-life dealing is against Islamic teaching...I don't want go over them and do not want to discuss them, but finding excuses to adjust the codes to Islamic values are just waste of time... especially the codes that been norm amongst Arab, Pashtun and some African tribes... totally paganism... And Islam from the beginning had its moments to fight them nonstop when the Mushrikeen of Mecca were trying repeatedly to overcome Islamic values and install their own instead... and I don't want to sound sectarian, but they found a free-way within the Salafi Islam to do so.

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum Brother Hassan.

God help you during this trying period. Know that you are receiving rewards (ajar)from Allah swt for your patience. Your Shia brothers and sisters in Lebanon are also experiencing hardship in their country. Atleast from what I know, they don't refer to the shias in Pakistan as foriegners or as Iranians who should return back to Iran. With the increase of suicide bombers and rigged cars, people are also desperate in having alternative living arrangements from where they currently reside, the Dahiya. Those who can afford to move have rented there homes and moved to South Lebanon, or those who have dual citizenship, have left the country. The majority have no other choice and continue to live in the Dahiya.

The terrorists that have longed petrified the shias of Pakistan and Afganistan, have found there way in Lebanon. We still have the moderate voice of Sunnis who condemn these attacks on there fellow countrymen. Before, living in the West, I couldn't relate to my brothers and sisters who are living in security deprived areas. Now, like you, we live day by day praying that no harm comes to our loved ones.

Allah khayr al hafidthen. God is the best of Protectors. For now brother, you do your part. Put sadaqa, in the morning and before you leave your home. Recite du32 from Imam Mohamed al Baqir when leaving your home. Have tawaqal (reliance) on Allah swt. May Allah swt hasten the reapperance of Imam sahib al zaman.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

[Hasan0404]

.

 

.

I didnt expect this thread to end in the discussion over Pashtoon Tribal Code. This thread got derailed, my purpose was different altogether.

 

Mention of Pashtoonwali came as an example of making use of best available options for greater good. I will make a thread to discuss my

 

thinkings about tribal codes in deoth soon iA.

[Hasan0404]

*detail

[rkazmi33]

Well I visited Pakistan after many years and I am not planning to go back unless I am forced to go back for some reason, because it was a very bad trip. The injustice you see everyday can drive you crazy. Poor people are like insects there and the thing is, when I went there, I looked at them as humans but by the end of my trip, they looked like something less than human to me. I had a friend who went there and I have seen such decline in her moral values, I cannot have a conversation with her anymore. They mostly believe that if you don't have beauty or brains, you just don't deserve to live. Americans are so stupid but they are so lucky they are living away from Pakistanis, otherwise Pakistanis could exploit them and destroy them in few days. The ability to exploit someone is intelligence and it's a good quality? Since when? And Pakistanis are always making fun of other pakistanis doing odd jobs in America. What should these paksitanis do instead? Live off of interest or feudal system and exploit poor people at ridiculous low wages? Yeah, that's very noble. Things are changing in America but they are still a lot better than how poor people are treated in Pakistan. The number of Iraqis getting killed is a lot higher than the no. of Pakistani shias getting killed. I don't see any Pakistani ever talking about those iraqis. As chaotic muslem mentioned in her thread on Iraq, if you go to Najaf you can really see people are sad. I didn't see any sadness among Pakistanis. They are all busy in partying and  social gatherings. There are people in Pakistan who work 12 hours a day 7 days a week and when Imam Mehdi (A.S.) will come back, I guess everyone will have to work hard. Is this change going to be harder for that pakistani working 40 hours a week in America or for all those pakistanis working 20 hours per week? If Pakistanis are really effected by terrorism by taliban, they should stop being cruel to all the weak people. I have complained several times about their special opposition to hijab. 

Edited February 3, 2014 by Mokhtar2012

[Wahdat]

Mention of Pashtoonwali came as an example of making use of best available options for greater good.

I doubt the thread got derailed brother. I still think Islam is a far far far better option than Pashtunwali. That was my whole point. 

[Marbles]

Well I visited Pakistan after many years and I am not planning to go back unless I am forced to go back for some reason, because it was a very bad trip. The injustice you see everyday can drive you crazy. Poor people are like insects there and the thing is, when I went there, I looked at them as humans but by the end of my trip, they looked like something less than human to me. I had a friend who went there and I have seen such decline in her moral values, I cannot have a conversation with her anymore. They mostly believe that if you don't have beauty or brains, you just don't deserve to live. Americans are so stupid but they are so lucky they are living away from Pakistanis, otherwise Pakistanis could exploit them and destroy them in few days. The ability to exploit someone is intelligence and it's a good quality? Since when? And Pakistanis are always making fun of other pakistanis doing odd jobs in America. What should these paksitanis do instead? Live off of interest or feudal system and exploit poor people at ridiculous low wages? Yeah, that's very noble. Things are changing in America but they are still a lot better than how poor people are treated in Pakistan. The number of Iraqis getting killed is a lot higher than the no. of Pakistani shias getting killed. I don't see any Pakistani ever talking about those iraqis. As chaotic muslem mentioned in her thread on Iraq, if you go to Najaf you can really see people are sad. I didn't see any sadness among Pakistanis. They are all busy in partying and  social gatherings. There are people in Pakistan who work 12 hours a day 7 days a week and when Imam Mehdi (A.S.) will come back, I guess everyone will have to work hard. Is this change going to be harder for that pakistani working 40 hours a week in America or for all those pakistanis working 20 hours per week? If Pakistanis are really effected by terrorism by taliban, they should stop being cruel to all the weak people. I have complained several times about their special opposition to hijab. 

 

Drama queen.

[Ugly Jinn]

Poor people are like insects there and the thing is, when I went there, I looked at them as humans but by the end of my trip, they looked like something less than human to me.

 

And I'm sure you look like an alien to them with a nice shirt, jeans, shoes, cell phone, and a belly hanging out.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Ugly Jinn

[The Green Knight]

And I'm sure you look like an alien to them with a nice shirt, jeans, shoes, cell phone, and a belly hanging out.

 

^ Allow me to describe him for you. Clean shaved, nice expensive bulky boots with white laces, long sleeved wife-beater jersey with hood, 65k rs. android phone (with anti-scratch sticker still on), spectacles, mouth open. :p

[Marbles]

^ Allow me to describe him for you. Clean shaved, nice expensive bulky boots with white laces, long sleeved wife-beater jersey with hood, 65k rs. android phone (with anti-scratch sticker still on), spectacles, mouth open. :P

 

Err, this description fits males only, unfortunately.

[Wahdat]

It'd suck if the undesirable tone of Mukhtar blocked some of the more interesting points he has raised up. I also have hard time taking those Afghans who come here with their gadgets and passports acting as if they are the chosen ones seriously. But dishonesty, crookedness, inhumanity, cruelty and the likes are some of the very visible unfortunate realities of our societies.  To the indigenous its normal to live in it and to an expat, being subjected to the suns of some of the more humane societies of the world, it all seems objectionable. May be its not all that bad here in these cartoon of societies, who is to set the standards for good or bad, maybe its the Western world thats far better when it comes to the aforementioned qualities.