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In the Name of God بسم الله

Could You Be Wrong About You Beliefs?

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catman

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Before you bang your head, try to wrap your head around this question.

 

What if after you die, you are standing in front of Allah (figuratively), and Allah says "You were wrong about your belief?".

 

What would you reply to Allah?

 

I would humbly ask for Him to repeat the question, as it currently makes no sense.

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I would humbly ask for Him to repeat the question, as it currently makes no sense.

 

And He repeats ,"EthidiumIodide, you were wrong about your belief".

 

What would you reply?

 

(if you still can't understand His direct simple words, then you were never qualified to understand His words to begin with)

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Before you bang your head, try to wrap your head around this question.

What if after you die, you are standing in front of Allah (figuratively), and Allah says "You were wrong about your belief?".

What would you reply to Allah?

Lol. What if I told you you don't exist?

It's a nonsensical question because we are not wrong. There is clear evidence for that.

(wasalam)

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It's a nonsensical question because we are not wrong. There is clear evidence for that.

 

Let me repeat, if Allah says "You are wrong", what will you say?

 

If you are unable to answer a simple question then I've made my point. 

 

(Iblis didn't think he was wrong either. It's eerie to see such similar arrogant behavior from humans)

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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(bismillah) 
 

(Iblis didn't think he was wrong either. It's eerie to see such similar arrogant behavior from humans)

 
Iblees knew he was wrong and he embraced it. I don't know where you got this from.

 

It's being arrogant to believe wholeheartedly in the truth? I see.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Grief
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If Allah said I was wrong, which would never happen, then I would say that I followed the path that appeared to be the truth will full sincerity and faith with my niyya being to please him; that I tried.

 

You should read carefully what you wrote, you might be unaware.

 

You have claimed that Allah can never say you are wrong. 

 

:wacko:

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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(bismillah)

 

You should read carefully what you wrote, you might be unaware.

 

You have claimed that Allah can never say you are wrong. 

 

:wacko:

 

Why do you insist on playing word games with no meaning and dragging this thing out for absolutely no reason?

 

Allah can never say I am wrong in my belief in Shia Islam, because Allah cannot lie, just as Allah cannot make a mistake, just as Allah cannot come down in the form of a man, binding himself to space and time which are his creations. Shia Islam is correct (and one can reconcile this through logical deduction... it's been made readily apparently to us what the truth is and what is not), which is why I said that Allah would never say I was wrong.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Grief
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I think too many things are being combined into this one question. We need to isolate a little bit here. 

 

Is the question can we be wrong that there is a God vs there is no God? 

 

Absolutely NOT.

 

Similar to how you are mentally able to say there isn't a God using your science, I'm spiritually able to say there is One using the Holy Quran and my heart. The difference is you think you have physical proof, but we've seen physical proof contradict itself over time numerous times.

However we've never once seen the Holy Quran change, if anything His words have always proven right, never contradictory. Surely no being could have known all of those facts years ago.

 

So no, there is no chance that we're wrong. Absolutely none. 

 

If the question is : is there a possibility that we were wrong to follow the path of Ahlul Bayt (as) ?

 

Absolutely NOT. Following Ahlul Bayt (as) means to follow what was taught to us by the Holy Quran, the word of Allah. At the end of the day even Ahlul Bayt (as) teach us that if we ever hear a hadeeth from them that contradicts the Holy Quran then we are to toss that hadeeth to the winds. Ahlul Bayt (as) and the Holy Quran cannot ever contradict each other. 

 

Sure. Lots of people can play around with hadeeths or make things up. But it's our responsibility to see that it applies with the teaching of the Holy Quran, otherwise we're mules. The Holy Quran is what withstands above all else. We don't obey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì because of Ahlul Bayt (as), we follow Ahlul Bayt (as) because we want to obey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. 

Edited by lebsyeda87
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(bismillah)

(salam)

otherwise we're mules.

You seem to have a peculiar hatred towards livestock... I hope you don't marry a farmer. Poor guy will probably kill himself trying to figure out your mahr :lol:.

On a serious note, God's existence is proven through logical deduction just as black holes are, as I highlighted in a previous post of mine. There's no two ways about it. He exists and no amount of meaningless rhetoric will change that fact.

(wasalam)

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Why do you insist on playing word games with no meaning and dragging this thing out for absolutely no reason?

 

Allah can never say I am wrong in my belief in Shia Islam, because Allah cannot lie, just as Allah cannot make a mistake, just as Allah cannot come down in the form of a man, binding himself to space and time which are his creations. Shia Islam is correct (and one can reconcile this through logical deduction... it's been made readily apparently to us what the truth is and what is not), which is why I said that Allah would never say I was wrong.

 

There are no words being played, this is a simple logical discussion to expose your mindset. You have clearly stated that Allah can never say you are wrong, period. 

 

Which means you know what Allah knows

 

Do you know what Allah knows? Yes/No?

 

^Again, it's a simple question (nothing to do with word games, I'm rephrasing what you said to show the absurdity of your claims). Be careful how you answer, you're already in the realm of Shirk.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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(bismillah)

 

Be careful how you answer, you're already in the realm of Shirk.

 

:lol:. I shall, oh Obi Wan.

 

You have clearly stated that Allah can never say you are wrong, period. 

 

You are lying. I said that Allah can never say that I am wrong about my belief in Shia Islam, because it is correct and Allah cannot lie. I don't know why you can't comprehend that.

 

Which means you know what Allah knows

 

Allah has taught us Islam. I know Islam to the extent that my ignorance allows me to. Therefore, I know what Allah has taught me.

 

Do you know what Allah knows? Yes/No?

 

What he has taught me of his infinite knowledge, yes.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Grief
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^ You need to re-examine the posts between us. This is a simple logical argument, nothing has been twisted - rather when your words are rephrased from Allah's point of you it exposes the absurdity. 

 

You are a fallible being that gathered information to follow a belief (most just follow what they were thought by family, but that's besides the point), you are equating your fallible path to an Absolute being. To state that an Absolute being cannot correct your fallible understanding of existence/belief is pure illogical and an insult to the Supreme Being.

 

You and I are in no position to claim that an Absolute Being cannot correct our fallible decisions, it is borderline shirk. This absolute claim from a fallible equates to you knowing as much as Him.

 

You are lying. I said that Allah can never say that I am wrong about my belief in Shia Islam, because it is correct and Allah cannot lie. I don't know why you can't comprehend that.

 

Do you not see your faulty statement? 

 

My belief is absolute hence God cannot question me. 

 

Can Absolute God be wrong? Yes/No?

Can fallible humans be wrong? Yes/No?

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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(bismillah)

 

It doesn't seem that you are able to wrap your head around my point, so let me present it to you with an extremely complex analogy:

 

1. I tell you that 1+1=2.

2. You leave for a year, come back to me and tell me "1+1=2".

3. I would be lying if I told you you were wrong.

4. I cannot lie (assume this is true).

5. Therefore, I cannot tell you that you were wrong.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Grief
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(bismillah)

 

^Hence a fallible human can be wrong, the fundamental point of this thread. 

 

I never denied that.

 

My point, which you missed entirely, was this:

 

Islam is the religion of God which He has taught us. Hence, it is a portion of God's infinite knowledge.

 

God's infinite knowledge is never wrong.

 

He has given us the knowledge of Islam.

 

Therefore, the knowledge of Islam is not the knowledge of fallible human beings. Rather, it is [a part of] the infinite knowledge of God, which is always correct.

 

Therefore, we are correct when we believe in Islam and although we may not follow it properly, the principles are there and are not wrong.

 

Therefore, to answer the thread's title, we cannot be wrong in our belief, because God's knowledge cannot be wrong.

 

I hope you understand it a little bit better now, Obi Wan.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Grief
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Bismillah Ar-Rahman Rahim,

 

I will attempt to explain (with Allah's help) and hopefully it serves as guidance for readers and not misguide anyone. This will be how I see it/experience it.

 

There is no doubt about God. The reason for that is simple because to believe in Allah is in our instinct. Something that has been pre-programmed in us. Quran explains this concept in simple terms: Allah mentions that when someone is stuck on a boat in a storm they cry out and when they reach safety they forget who helped them. What is being mentioned here is simply that when the NEED of someone who is All-Mighty is present, that instinct comes out.  This is further shown with case of Pharaoh (one of the MOST arrogant) when he saw a power greater then him, his own instinct made him believe even when his Ego has always disbelief but it was too late for him.

 

It really is not hard to find Allah. When you are in some real trouble and every path seemed close, then there is that one feeling/thought that creeps in your head telling you to Ask the One who is the Truth. It really is up to the individual to either ignore those thoughts and live in despair or Return to the One. 

 

If the question is about faith (Eman), then I agree with Ugly Jinn's first reply. People can quote plenty of hadiths, proofs and what not. But I doubt they know what they are talking about (its their 'Aql speaking which might not be in agreement with their Nafs). I can give evidence for this claim (if it is Allah's will) but thats a different topic.

What I have stated above is my own views based on readings of different scholars. 

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I never denied that.

 

My point, which you missed entirely, was this:

 

Islam is the religion of God which He has taught us. Hence, it is a portion of God's infinite knowledge.

 

God's infinite knowledge is never wrong.

 

He has given us the knowledge of Islam.

 

Therefore, the knowledge of Islam is not the knowledge of fallible human beings. Rather, it is [a part of] the infinite knowledge of God, which is always correct.

 

Therefore, we are correct when we believe in Islam and although we may not follow it properly, the principles are there and are not wrong.

 

Therefore, to answer the thread's title, we cannot be wrong in our belief, because God's knowledge cannot be wrong.

 

I hope you understand it a little bit better now, Obi Wan.

 

This is where I need to bang my head.

 

What you wrote above is YOUR FALLIBLE UNDERSTANDING.

 

From God's perspective everything is Absolute. 

From your perspective it cannot be Absolute.

 

Do not mix those 2 together which you keep doing. This thread is about YOUR perspective.

 

This is not that difficult to comprehend wallah. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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Salamun Alaikum

In the perspective of a shia momin, they have been blessed with seeing the truth from our Lord in ways that remove all doubts from our heart. I haven't met any ppl of other religions or sects with unshakeable faith that can defend their faith intellectually.

"Even if I could see my Lord, my faith would not increase" - Imam Ali (as)

Just for the OPz sake if I was wrong lol I wouldn't be worried as in Islam your intentions are the most important.

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Just for the OPz sake if I was wrong lol I wouldn't be worried as in Islam your intentions are the most important.

 

If you were wrong, Islam can't be a basis to justify your stance, so what's the point of stating "as in Islam your intentions are most important". What would be most right would be saying "well I know to God it's our intentions that are what is most important". Using Islam as a reference point doesn't make sense if you are wrong about Islam.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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I think I would like to compromise. I think certainty is achievable but certainly it's not the norm of believers.  Many believers of a religion would delude themselves into believing they are certain.  This is true of Islam as well.  It can also the case that believers believe in a religion with no real justification in doing so even if it happens to be that the religion is true.

 

I think the norm is uncertainty deluding ourselves to believing we are certain.

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well being wrong or wondering if certain elements of faith would fall under doubt, doubt is necessary for building strong faith...struggling towards certainty is what develops one as a person, and is what I believe Allah swt wishes for us to endure to claim great heights, without doubt there would be blind claims of absolute truth, this type of arrogant certainty can in cases lead to self righteousness, arrogance and dogmatism, it doesn't mean one should be cynical towards everything it just means not quashing the questions that come to mind when exploring religion,

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As an atheist I get asked quite often "What if you're wrong". I admit that I could be wrong. There really could be a God. For purposes of this forum I could be wrong about the Quran. It could be 100% factual. I just have not seen the evidence yet.

However, I have to pose this question. Is there any evidence that could convince you that you are wrong about your beliefs?

I don't "believe" in either Atheism or God. It is however "known" that there is truth and that truth is eternal. This itself should be sufficient. Beliefs are useless. Edited by eThErEaL
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 As an atheist I get asked quite often "What if you're wrong".  I admit that I could be wrong. There really could be a God. For purposes of this forum I could be wrong about the Quran. It could be 100% factual. I just have not seen the evidence yet.

 

However, I have to pose this question. Is there any evidence that could convince you that you are wrong about your beliefs?

 

yes, that's a possibility, technically it depends on how strong your faith is, but for most of believers there's some doubt about their belief and that is why they commit sins

but there's another aspect of this issue, and that's: what if someday (like after death) it appears that believers were wrong? and what if the same thing happens to atheists? (they find out that there was a God. this topic has been brought up in shia traditions, in kafi we read:

الكافي (ط - الإسلامية) ؛ ج‏1 ؛ ص75

فَقَالَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُ هَؤُلَاءِ وَ هُوَ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُونَ يَعْنِي أَهْلَ الطَّوَافِ فَقَدْ سَلِمُوا وَ عَطِبْتُمْ وَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى مَا تَقُولُونَ وَ لَيْسَ كَمَا تَقُولُونَ فَقَدِ اسْتَوَيْتُمْ

it's a long conversation but I translate the part we need here, Imam says to the infidel:

if what these people(believers) say is true, (and it is true) then they'll be saved from hell and you will be there for eternity, but if what they say is not true, then believers and disbelievers  will be equal.

so belief in God is a win-win deal, while denying him is a very risky deal, considering eternal life in heaven or hell.    

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yes, that's a possibility, technically it depends on how strong your faith is, but for most of believers there's some doubt about their belief and that is why they commit sins

but there's another aspect of this issue, and that's: what if someday (like after death) it appears that believers were wrong? and what if the same thing happens to atheists? (they find out that there was a God. this topic has been brought up in shia traditions, in kafi we read:

الكافي (ط - الإسلامية) ؛ ج‏1 ؛ ص75

فَقَالَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُ هَؤُلَاءِ وَ هُوَ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُونَ يَعْنِي أَهْلَ الطَّوَافِ فَقَدْ سَلِمُوا وَ عَطِبْتُمْ وَ إِنْ يَكُنِ الْأَمْرُ عَلَى مَا تَقُولُونَ وَ لَيْسَ كَمَا تَقُولُونَ فَقَدِ اسْتَوَيْتُمْ

it's a long conversation but I translate the part we need here, Imam says to the infidel:

if what these people(believers) say is true, (and it is true) then they'll be saved from hell and you will be there for eternity, but if what they say is not true, then believers and disbelievers  will be equal.

so belief in God is a win-win deal, while denying him is a very risky deal, considering eternal life in heaven or hell.    

 

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

They won't be equal. The believers will have lived more fulfilling lives. This argument is known as 'Pascal's Wager' as well.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Grief
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(salam)

in terms of afterlife and hereafter, they're equal. I think this is what Imam Saadiq (as)  meant.

(wasalam)

 

 (wasalam)

 

Oh I didn't know you were quoting a hadith. Yes I understand of course, what the Imam (AS) 's intent was. I was making a general statement. JazakAllah.

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