Booklets Introducing Shia Islam

It's okay, I'm over it. I read it a couple more times till it made sense. It's easy to misread if not careful. I'm not used to seeing "Mystic" used in such terms.

**Son of Placid** · February 21, 2014

http://www.messageofthaqalayn.com/glance.pdf

Amazing how many Bible verses are brought to mind while reading this.

**Son of Placid** · February 21, 2014

Just wondering, but sometimes these ayats...

2:129, Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

Considering this was the prayers of Abraham, and Ishmael what "book" cold this Ayat be speaking of?

**baqar** · February 22, 2014

Hi SoP

The 'Book' in the Quran does not always refer to a 'book' as we understand it. In the case you have quoted, I think, it refers to knowledge beyond commonly known boundaries.

I will give you another example of the expression 'Knowledge of the Book' being used in a somewhat mysterious way.

Please read verses [27:38] to [27:40].

In [27:38], prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) asks his audience who could fetch for him the Queen of Sheba's throne before she arrives.

In [27:39], one of the audience says that he would bring it before Solomon rose from his seat.

In [27:40] the smart guy of the previous verse is trumped by another who, the Quran claims, had 'knowledge of the Book' and who announced his ability to fetch the throne in the twinkling of the eye, or as Arberry says 'before ever thy glance returns to thee'.

'Knowledge of the Book' here is knowledge beyond what could be ordinarily expected from common folk - even the most erudite among them.

Since you live in the modern age, you could perhaps understand the expression, for example, as knowledge similar to electronics and rocket science, which that guy somehow had but the others did not.

The speed with which he could bring the throne is probably similar to the speed of a rocket travelling into outer space. But today, not everyone has that knowledge.

Arberry translates [27:40] as follows :-

"Said he who possessed knowledge of the Book, 'I will bring it to thee, before ever thy glance returns to thee.' Then, when he saw it settled before him, he said, 'This is of my Lord's bounty that He may try me, whether I am thankful or ungrateful. Whosoever gives thanks gives thanks only for his own soul's good, and whosoever is ungrateful -- my Lord is surely All-sufficient, All-generous.'"

As mentioned before, the Quran is not self-explanatory. It requires a lot of sweat and hard work to understand properly. References to the Quran often require great study and care.

**Son of Placid** · February 22, 2014

I have noticed many times that the Quran requires careful study. Trouble is, I don't think it's as often as Muslims give it up for. The entire Surah is a little confusing as to why it's there, but I am no one ...The first who said "before you can rise from your seat" was apparently a jinn? next, Having looked at a few translations, it's about 50 - 50 who says "knowledge of the scriptures" instead of "knowledge of the book".

I probably frustrate you with my "other" understanding but I could totally understand someone having more knowledge because they read the book. That would make sense right off. How a book cannot be a book I don't know. Sorry, but I don't see why "the book" would be anything else other than what it's been throughout the Quran.

You may roll your eyes, but when I read Surat Al-Baqarah. I chuckle a bit in 124 when Abraham gets promise from Allah to make him a great leader. Abraham asks about his children, Allah says His promise doesn't go for the wrongdoers. Basically says "not all your kids are gonna be good."

None the less, in 127 they are asking to learn submission, (become Muslims) , repentance, "Show us your ways of devotion" It's awesome...They ask, (and receive) acceptance of Allah.

129, My paraphrase would be;

Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves (Jesus),who will recite to them Your Injeel and teach them the Torah and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

130 is one of the verses to be careful with. At first glance it seems to say the one that turns away appears a fool but will be counted with the righteous. Many versions later reveals those who turn away get nada.

Abraham was chosen to be a leader in submission to Allah. Proven by the many instances recorded in the Bible and Quran.

Isaac and Ishmael both had the promise upon them.

132 is a very profound message. This is where all the sweat and hard work need be done now, not later. "do not die except while you are Muslims." Ecclesiastics says "remember your creator in the days of your youth."

This is so very much the message of Paul. If you can understand Paul's level of submission, and his advise... he has the same bottom line.

This, of course is going on the premise that Allah gave all the Prophets the same revelation, and that with the revelation came submission (aka Muslim) to Allah This includes Jesus and the disciples, and the Injeel as they learned it directly, and as they (originally) preached it, and as the Quran reminds us of all of it.

This should be a wake up to Christians as well.

IbnSohan · February 22, 2014

On 2/22/2014 at 1:36 AM, Son of Placid said:

I have noticed many times that the Quran requires careful study. Trouble is, I don't think it's as often as Muslims give it up for. The entire Surah is a little confusing as to why it's there, but I am no one ...The first who said "before you can rise from your seat" was apparently a jinn? next, Having looked at a few translations, it's about 50 - 50 who says "knowledge of the scriptures" instead of "knowledge of the book".

I probably frustrate you with my "other" understanding but I could totally understand someone having more knowledge because they read the book. That would make sense right off. How a book cannot be a book I don't know. Sorry, but I don't see why "the book" would be anything else other than what it's been throughout the Quran.

You may roll your eyes, but when I read Surat Al-Baqarah. I chuckle a bit in 124 when Abraham gets promise from Allah to make him a great leader. Abraham asks about his children, Allah says His promise doesn't go for the wrongdoers. Basically says "not all your kids are gonna be good."

None the less, in 127 they are asking to learn submission, (become Muslims) , repentance, "Show us your ways of devotion" It's awesome...They ask, (and receive) acceptance of Allah.

129, My paraphrase would be;

Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves (Jesus),who will recite to them Your Injeel and teach them the Torah and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

130 is one of the verses to be careful with. At first glance it seems to say the one that turns away appears a fool but will be counted with the righteous. Many versions later reveals those who turn away get nada.

Abraham was chosen to be a leader in submission to Allah. Proven by the many instances recorded in the Bible and Quran.

Isaac and Ishmael both had the promise upon them.

132 is a very profound message. This is where all the sweat and hard work need be done now, not later. "do not die except while you are Muslims." Ecclesiastics says "remember your creator in the days of your youth."

This is so very much the message of Paul. If you can understand Paul's level of submission, and his advise... he has the same bottom line.

This, of course is going on the premise that Allah gave all the Prophets the same revelation, and that with the revelation came submission (aka Muslim) to Allah This includes Jesus and the disciples, and the Injeel as they learned it directly, and as they (originally) preached it, and as the Quran reminds us of all of it.

This should be a wake up to Christians as well.

Salam SoP

The verse is referring to prophet Muhamad and his book "Quran" Prophet said "I am the answer of my father Ibrahim prayer and the glad tidings of Jesus"

The prayer of Ibrahim was in Makkah, in islamic history, Prophet Ibrahim with his son prophet Ismail raised the walls of Ka'bah. The whole rituals of Hajj is related to their story when they first inhibited that deserted valley. The talk is about the progeny of Ibrahim through his son Ismail which is the prophet Muhamad.

Similar verses that makes the meaning clearer :

Baqarah 151

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know

Jum'ah 2

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error

Aal Imran 164

Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.

Saff 6

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."

--------

When Ibrahim asked about his children he said "min thurriyati" min means from which donates some and few from my progeny, the answer is not "No" the answer is "Yes"

There will be from your progeny who will carry the covenant of God because this covenant is not given to wrong doers.

**baqar** · February 22, 2014

On 2/22/2014 at 1:36 AM, Son of Placid said:

Having looked at a few translations, it's about 50 - 50 who says "knowledge of the scriptures" instead of "knowledge of the book".

The Arabic text says 'Kitab' which means 'book'. The literal meaning of the word 'Kitab' is not scripture. That is only a derived meaning.

They can translate it as they wish.

On 2/22/2014 at 1:36 AM, Son of Placid said:

This, of course is going on the premise that Allah gave all the Prophets the same revelation.

I have little doubt that He did.

But, in any case, I am sorry I did not understand the rest of your post.

I think I have already mentioned to you -perhaps a fair while back - that your style is a little hard to unravel.

Never mind! Don't bother.

I am sure other people will understand it and respond suitably.

On 2/22/2014 at 1:36 AM, Son of Placid said:

Sorry, but I don't see why "the book" would be anything else other than what it's been throughout the Quran.

The use of one word to express many different things is not specific to the Quran.

I will not spend a lot of time trying to convince you.

I probably won't need to because I am sure you will also find it also in other languages including English.

**Ethics** · February 22, 2014

A Closer Look at Christianity

Words of the Word of God: Jesus Christ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Speaks through Shia Narrations

Jesus through Shiite Narrations

Edited February 22, 2014 by PureEthics

IbnSohan · February 22, 2014

I have noticed many times that the Quran requires careful study. Trouble is, I don't think it's as often as Muslims give it up for. The entire Surah is a little confusing as to why it's there, but I am no one ...The first who said "before you can rise from your seat" was apparently a jinn? next, Having looked at a few translations, it's about 50 - 50 who says "knowledge of the scriptures" instead of "knowledge of the book".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asif_bin_Barkhiya

**placid** · February 22, 2014

Hi IbnSohan,

I have been following the conversation and looking at some of the verses you used which I have listed below from Post 15:

Quote: Baqarah 151 --- 2:

151 Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know

Response: --- In the Pickthall translation it says to Muhammad in Surah 2:

149 ‘When you pray (Muhammad) turn your face toward the Inviolable place of Worship.’

150 (He says) --- ‘When you pray (O Muslims) turn your face toward it,’ --- (the Inviolable place of Worship).

151 (It is still addressing the Muslims in saying) ‘We have sent unto you a messenger from among you.

--- (So this is speaking of Muhammad).

Quote: Jum'ah 2 --- 62:2

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error

Response: --- This refers to the ‘unlettered’ Muslims, to whom God sent a Messenger, Muhammad.

--- (So the word ‘unlettered’ refers to the common people, and not to Muhammad, does it not?)

Aal Imran 164 --- 3:

164 Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.

--- (This again speaks of Muhammad who came from among them and received the Scriptures through revelation and taught them the wisdom of God.)

--- However, this verse also mentions ‘the unlettered Prophet’ --- 7:

157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures), - in the law and the Gospel; - for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him, - it is they who will prosper."

--- Some translators have said, “Follow the messenger the Prophet who can neither read nor write,” and they believe that refers to Muhammad, --- but this verse is written in the midst of the context of Moses and the Children of Israel. --- Also, it refers to “him” who is mentioned in their own Scriptures, the Law and the Gospel. --- So this cannot refer to Muhammad, can it?

Others translate it this way:

157 Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Ummi whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad things and remove from them their burdens and shackles that were upon them. So those who shall believe in him and honour and support him and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him - these shall prosper.'

158 Say, `O mankind, truly I am a Messenger to you all from Allah to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no god but HE. HE gives life and HE causes death. --- So believe in Allah and HIS Messenger, the Ummi Prophet, who believes in Allah and HIS words; and follow him that you may be rightly guided.'

--- (While most comments like to try to relate this to Muhammad, --- the word “Ummi” does not mean illiterate, but refers more to being ‘unschooled,’ or ‘unlettered’ as 'having no letters behind your name.')

(More later)

Placid

**placid** · February 23, 2014

(To continue)

This again ties into verses like 5:148, where it mentions the three religions from Abraham where it says, we each have “A divine law, and a traced-out way.”

--- (One thing to note is that both Jesus and Muhammad were ‘unschooled’ in the sense that God revealed the Scriptures to them, so they could teach God’s word which was given, to them, and through them, to others. The Pharisees would reject Jesus as being a Galilean who never attended their schools so was unqualified, though He did miracles in their midst.)

--- And here is where Muhammad is teaching the people the story of Moses and the disobedience of the Children of Israel when they fashioned a golden calf to worship (Surah 7:148 -155, --- and God’s response in 7:

156 (Moses says): "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee in repentance." He (God) said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practice regular charity, and those who believe in Our Signs; -

--- (The Signs of God are related to Jesus who came as a Sign by miracles), in 3:

49 "And (appoint him, Jesus) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50 "(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51 It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

If we compare these verses with 7:

157 Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Ummi whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad things and remove from them their burdens and shackles that were upon them. So those who shall believe in him and honour and support him and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him - these shall prosper.'

--- Notice a number of things:

Muhammad is relating this to the people, and he speaks in the ‘third’ person of the unschooled Prophet, the Ummi, referring to Jesus, who was ‘mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel WHICH ARE WITH THEM.’ --- He, Jesus, ‘enjoins on them good,’ --- He changes the laws and relieves the burdens and shackles, the restrictions of the laws of the OT.

--- (It says He was mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel), --- as in Isaiah 61:

1“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me

To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,

That was the prophecy, and it was fulfilled in Luke 4:

16 So He (Jesus) came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me

To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

--- Also notice in 157 “And follow the ‘light’ that has been sent down with him.”

Jesus said in John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

And in this verse Muhammad starts speaking in the first person:

158 Say, `O mankind, truly I (Muhammad) am a Messenger to you all from Allah to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no god but HE. HE gives life and HE causes death.

--- (Then again he speaks in the third person) So believe in Allah and HIS Messenger, the Ummi Prophet (Jesus), who believes in Allah and HIS words; and follow him that you may be rightly guided.'

--- (This goes back to Surah 3:

50 “I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51 It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight." --- (or rightly guided.

Placid

IbnSohan · February 23, 2014

Salam Placid

unlettered, the word used is Ummi, there are tow explanations for this word

1- Ummi means unlettered (cannot read or write)

2- Ummi means from Umm AlQura (another name for Makkah)

3- I f i am not mistaken, Ummi means unlettered (no holy book was descended upon them before)

The word Ummi was used to describe the people of Makkah, the plural form was used "Ummiyyin"

Prophet was the answer of Ibrahim prayer, the glad tidings of Jesus and his mention was in Torah, Moses knew about him

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235019422-ahl-al-bayt-in-pre-islamic-literature/

Muhammad is relating this to the people, and he speaks in the ‘third’ person of the unschooled Prophet, the Ummi, referring to Jesus, who was ‘mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel WHICH ARE WITH THEM.’ --- He, Jesus, ‘enjoins on them good,’ --- He changes the laws and relieves the burdens and shackles, the restrictions of the laws of the OT.

The Quran is the words of Allah, prophet Muhamad is usually referred to as the second or third person.

HamzaTR · February 23, 2014

Thanks guys for discussing in the booklet and article sharing thread. lol. You could have made another thread for discussion. But anyway..

Ok, here are some other articles I read lately, Lady Mary in the Bible and in the Quran; http://www.messageofthaqalayn.com/lady%20mary.pdf

Some of the Prophetic Hadiths in al-Khisal (a Shia Islamic Source);

http://www.messageofthaqalayn.com/37-prophetic.pdf

I also suggest everyone to take a look at the archieves of articles on the site of the Islamic Journal; http://www.messageofthaqalayn.com/ ma salam :)

P.s. since the topic UMMI Prophet was discussed here, I think the booklet (Unschooled Prophet by Mutahhari) can be very helpful for further study;

http://english.sahartv.ir/media/pdf/The%20Unschooled%20Prophet.pdf

Edited February 23, 2014 by HamzaTR

HamzaTR · March 5, 2014

Article: Different Treatments of Spirituality:

http://www.mashomali.com/39-different.pdf

**Son of Placid** · March 11, 2014

Good time to bump up the thread.

A little trouble in the link to A closer look at Christianity. Mr Mohamad Qasem doesn't mind boasting a bit as he explains he has it all in hand from the git but doesn't seem to like using context to gain the real meaning of the text. (I see this so often.)

Using Hebrews 5:7 to build a theory that the NT says Jesus wasn't crucified is crushed in verse 8 It's like 15 more words...

If Hebrews 5 stopped at verse 7 I'd have something to think about and might give this guy a level of credibility, but it is quickly followed by verse 8. Considering he picked this great big cherry so early in his Christian opinion the rest of his story can't be any better. Just 15 more words and he could have saved the world from his own deception. I'll save myself by not reading any farther.

Many better links to follow.

HamzaTR · March 13, 2014

''A Closer Look'' is a good one, though the approach of the writer is not perfect. One should have a MORE positive way in enlightening and I think Thomas McElwain has it better. He even has a guidebook on the true way of Da'wah (call, preaching). Anyway, if you are interested in such topics, apart from Muhammed Qasem's work, I suggest McElwain's two books (''Islam in the Bible'' and ''Shi'i Beliefs in the Bible'', the former is the best.)

And I suggest you finish the booklet you started :P And later, when you feel ready to read another, Thomas McElwain's book, ''Islam in the Bible'' would be perfect.

Online reading: http://www.al-islam.org/islam-in-the-bible-thomas-mcelwain

PDF e-book: http://www.mediafire.com/download/vayohsciq84c9x1/Islam-in-the-Bible.pdf

But, dear brother, please no rush in your studies. Make sure you are slow but steady :) May Allah bless you. ma salam

Edited March 13, 2014 by HamzaTR

**Son of Placid** · March 13, 2014

Okay, took your advice and continued reading but honestly...

Myself, Myself, why hast thou forsaken me? should read Myself, myself, why hast I forsaken me?

So, you already know I'm not a Trinitarian but this guy brings it all down to a contradiction. Come to think of it, it was one of the things I struggled with. I haven't counted how many times Jesus clearly stated that God was in Heaven. I don't know how many times Jesus said God was greater than He. Jesus continually called God His Father, yet told us God was our Father as well. This whole father-son thing is over rated. Anyway.

"I and my Father are one" is the supposed contradiction according to our author. No need to go so far.

Consider yourself a Prophet,(any one). You receive direct revelation from God and know exactly what God wants you to do. This is called "being one with God"

I'm not sure how you call it but Muhammad would know and could have said it himself. So if nobody minds, let's not call this a contradiction. ;)

Are you sure I should keep reading this?

HamzaTR · March 13, 2014

You can take the good points in the book or stop reading it. It is up to you. But, the belief you described in your post about infallibles, namely Jesus, (and it is there for other absolute ones among prophets.. And also 12 Imams) are pretty islamic. Because, it sounds to me like the ''Anal-Haqq'' (I am the Truth) claim of Mansur al-Hallaj and the concept of Wahdat'ul-Wujud, which sadly is interpreted falsely by some (both by among accepters and rejectors). However, the true understanding is as you described, losing the self in and becoming one with God. And, yes, none of the men who were granted or who attained this level through trials claimed that people should worship them. As you said, Jesus describes God for him, the same way he describes God for the others. And he proclaims God is great and he prays to him (at least) 3 times a day, fasts and sacrifices for Him (and everyone following them should do the same so that they become one with God also). I totally agree with you :)

And, again, I agree, Infallibles' being one with Allah [1] means what they speak of is ilahi/Godly [2] and what they do is Godly [3]. And one can attain perfection only if he has infallible-perfect teachers [4] And rejecting the Infallibles, namely absolute ones among Prophets, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, who were one with God, would mean rejecting God and worshipping the self (arrogance). So, brother, your non-trinitarian beliefs, and interpretation of the term "son" just like I interpret wahdat-al wujud is acceptable. But, we should note that, because the term "son of God" is usually accepted differently by others, Islam does not use it, (instead Islam says, "Jesus, son of Mary"). Anyway, the writer is focusing on those who accept Jesus as God to be worshipped. You don't have to take everything he says on yourself :) And, as I said earlier, the writer could have a better approach in explaining things. But, it seems you already know certain things well. Blessings to you. But, sadly, I don't know about your beliefs totally. Like, for instance, I usually wonder, if you accept Prophet Muhammad as in this state also. Being one with God. I believe you do :)

Once your respected father asked what he can do as a Christian. And I say, you both are already Muslims if you accept Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a) and his message as a continuation of this noble line and path. And what we all can do is to perfect ourselves in beliefs and practices. And I pray we keep and perfect this faith through Islamic practices, such as daily prayers and fasting, etc and continuous study of faith. Ok. You sure can skip that book and refer to other articles and books in this thread. Sorry for repeating again. Please, no rush. May Allah bless you. ma salam.

------

[1] It is best described in Quran, 8:24; "O you who have believed, respond to Allah AND to the MESSENGER when HE calls you to that which gives you life..." God adresses Himself and Prophet Muhammad as HE. This is the example of being one with God. For further study of the verse, please see; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5Fa7ztZ1so

[2] That is, Allah approves what they say. As in Quran, 53:3; ''Nor doth he speak out of desire.'' In the end, what they spoke of was the revelation they got. Not only that, their own speech were revelations for their subscribers. As in Quran, 19:11; ''So he (Zachary) emerged before his people from the Temple, and REVEALED to them that they should glorify (tasbih) [Allah] morning and evening.''

[3] That is, Allah approves what they do. There is no selfishness in their actions. Their ''...prayers and sacrifices, lives and deaths, are (all) for Allah, Lord of the Worlds." (Quran, 6:162) All their actions are out of the love of God and for His pleasure. Thus, what they do is approved by God and is divine. "...And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw..." (Quran, 8:17)

[4] See: http://www.al-islam.org/perfect-man-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari

Edited March 13, 2014 by HamzaTR

**IloveImamHussain** · March 13, 2014

I say, you both are already Muslims if you accept Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a) and his message as a continuation of this noble line and path.

Welcome aboard, Placid & son.

All we now need to do is to make Shias out of you.

PeaceLoving · March 13, 2014

Welcome aboard, Placid & son.

All we now need to do is to make Shias out of you.

Hardliners in both faiths might point to the incompatibility of being both Christian and Muslim at the same time. So the best course would be to start a new religion that embraces both. We hope their Islam would be leaning towards Shia Islam, in which case they could call themselves 'ShiaChrislims' or 'ShiaMustians' or perhaps 'Chrishialims', The names sound funny but after all, that is how other names have been constructed. Look at Christadelphians or Latter Day Saints.

But before they launch the new product, they will have to decide their strategy in regard to alcohol, pork and circumcision.

I think I have an inkling which way they might go,at least as far as alcohol is concerned.

**placid** · March 14, 2014

Thanks fellows for inviting us to join you as Muslims.

--- When I first came on Shiachat I thought that the Shias were the followers of the Quran so I began to read it diligently. --- I found that the revelations confirmed the OT history of the Prophets. --- Great. --- Then, as a Christian I was especially interested in the teaching of Jesus, and the respect given to Him.

--- And to go back to Abraham, the Father of our Faith, I found this in Surah 2:

132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

In other translations it says:

132 --- die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

--- so let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of complete submission.'

133 --- One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

--- the One God; and to HIM we submit ourselves.'

So, I understand that the Faith of Islam, or Islam, means ‘surrender or submission unto God.’ --- Okay, I already understood that from the OT and the dedication and submission unto God of the Prophets.

And I found the word Muslim in Surah 3:

52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

53 "Our Lord (God)! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness."

In other translations it says:

52 --- We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

--- We have believed in Allah. And bear thou witness that we are obedient;

53 --- we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).

--- we follow this Messenger (Jesus). So write us down among those who bear witness.'

So since I found out that ‘Muslim’ means ‘one who has surrendered or submitted to the Will of God,’ --- ‘One who bears witness to the truth of God’ --- and ’one who is obedient,’ --- I thought that is great.

--- We believe the same as the disciples and Apostles of Jesus, so we belong.

So by that standard we are already Muslims. --- And the next thing that confirmed it was that it is often said, --- The Quran is the “Final Authority”.

Mr Pickthall said in his intro;

Quote: The words which came to him while in a state of trance are held sacred by the Muslims and are never confused with those which he uttered when no physical change was apparent in him. The former are the Sacred Book, --- the latter, the Hadith or Sunnah of the Prophet. --- End of quote.

So we understand that only the Quran is ‘Revelation from God.’

--- And this was stated just the other day by Ali Musaaa on another topic:

“The Qur'an has ‘final authority’ over the previous scriptures.”

--- (If that is the understanding, then it can only mean the 'inspired Quran'.)

So, as for me, I guess I am a “Disciple of Jesus” --- and a “Quran only” Muslim.

--- But that shouldn't make any difference to you who practice differently, should it?

Placid

**placid** · March 14, 2014

Sorry, I seem to write everything in long Posts, so I will keep this one short.

--- You pray five times a day, and am I to understand that you pray the same, or a similar prayer each time?

I want to give you a glimpse into our local Church life. --- I got an email last night from one of our Church members with these requests:

Quote: Just a few prayer requests that need our prayers. --- Nicka *****’s dad was taken to the hospital yesterday with pain and blood in his urine --- Steve ***** called me today at lunch saying Steve ******’s mom passed away today, please keep both families in prayer.--- Also Pastor Brad from Grace Church was in a car accident. Brad is 100% ok but much damage to the suv, pray that the insurance will cover it. --- End of quote.

--- I blanked out the last names. --- It is interesting that two of these three are not even from our Church, but we know them, and when prayer requests come, we pray, --- not just once, but we keep them in our prayers.

As Son said, the NT teaches, “Pray without ceasing.” --- It doesn’t mean to be always mouthing words in prayer, but to be, “Constantly in the attitude of prayer.”

--- By praying for others, and our own families, and our Church Family, we are simply practicing our Christianity.

Edited March 14, 2014 by placid

**IloveImamHussain** · March 14, 2014

I am a “disciple of Jesus” and a “Quran only” Muslim.

Hi Placid

That is simply fabulous.

But that shouldn't make any difference to you who practice differently, should it?

Of course not. But having come thus far, you will surely reconsider the term 'Quran only Muslim'.

You see, there already are people who are supposed to be 'Quran only Muslims'.

And believe me, you wouldn't want to have anything to do with them.

A weird branch of very staunch enemies of Shias, they don't have that magical love relationship with Imam Ali and Imam Hussain, which we all know, you do

So I would seriously urge you to re-consider this whole package and declare yourself a 'Quran only Shia', instead of a 'Quran only Muslim'.

Now what says Placid?

You pray five times a day, and am I to understand that you pray the same, or a similar prayer each time?

Yes, that is right.

Actually, no, it is not quite right.

The five compulsory prayers that you have mentioned are all very similar, they differ only in length.

But beyond these compulsory prayers, there are optional prayers, which are generally similar, but not always.

And beyond these optional prayers, we make specific prayers to God for anything that we seek from Him.

Just as you mentioned praying for ourselves and our families, we pray for success in our exams, and we pray for our families, friends and dear ones and for any one. Most Muslims also pray for spiritual guidance and help. In fact, we pray for anything we want - a good education, a good job, a good spouse etc.

Such supplications are made often after the compulsory as well as optional prayers, but also at any time that we want - any time.

We can ask God for anything that we want at any time we wish.

No restrictions as far as the time or substance of the prayer are concerned.

Regards

“Constantly in the attitude of prayer.”

The attitude of prayer and submission.

That is exactly right. That is just what we do.

PeaceLoving · March 14, 2014

Just a few prayer requests that need our prayers. --- Nicka *****’s dad was taken to the hospital yesterday with pain and blood in his urine --- Steve ***** called me today at lunch saying Steve ******’s mom passed away today, please keep both families in prayer.--- Also Pastor Brad from Grace Church was in a car accident. Brad is 100% ok but much damage to the suv, pray that the insurance will cover it.

Hi Placid

We also receive prayer requests from others, like you mentioned. And we also pray for anything we want for ourselves or for others.

Our needs and of those around us are changing all the time.

And God does want that we plead with him to resolve our problems and grant our wishes.

In fact, compulsory prayers without personal prayers are not seen too well.

[2:186] And when my servants ask you about Me, I am very near (to them). I answer the call of everyone who calls on Me. So they (in their part) should answer My call that they believe in Me and (thus) be on the right path.

**placid** · March 15, 2014

Hi ILove,

Quote from Post 32:

Of course not. But having come thus far, you will surely reconsider the term 'Quran only Muslim'.

You see, there already are people who are supposed to be 'Quran only Muslims'.

And believe me, you wouldn't want to have anything to do with them.

Response: --- I was not aware of a “Quran only” group, and wonder about it being rejected by other Muslim groups. --- So, in reconsidering a term, I think the problem is to use the word ‘Muslim,’ because to me, it simply means ‘a surrendered one.’

I better go with a simple identification, ‘A Christian believer who accepts the Revelations in the Quran only.’

I have noticed that as well as Messianic Jews, there are Messianic Muslims

But rather than trying to identify a category, I guess I will just continue to be a believer and a learner.

HamzaTR · April 22, 2014

Two more books:

"Islam for all" by Reza Isfahani

you can download the pdf e-book here: http://www.mediafire.com/?fh28qvay6h62lo2

"Discovering Shii Islam" by Mohammad Ali Shomali

online reading: http://www.al-islam.org/discovering-shii-islam-mohammad-ali-shomali

pdf e-book: http://www.mediafire.com/download/66y56d3btfa3x10/Discovering_Shii_Islam.pdf

Edited April 22, 2014 by HamzaTR

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