Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Ali-F

If You Support Stoning, How Do You Defend It

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Salam wb...

 

 

How should a person defend stoning, if he believes in it, to a non-muslim?

 

Isnt that a bit hard, because the non muslim will probably say that this is not humane, and to barbaric..

 

 

 

ws wb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

I would support it by saying that it never happens under Islamic law and that the punishment is there only symbollically to demonstrate the severity of the crime in the eyes of God, but is never actually acted upon due to the stringent preconditions that must be fulfilled in order for it to be carried out.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by BuggyLemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lashing for adultery not stoning says imran hosein and i believe him. you might want to check.

 

you need two witnesses to prove such an incident happened, most find no one...or at least not two.  you could say that.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lashing for adultery not stoning says imran hosein and i believe him. you might want to check.

 

you need two witnesses to prove such an incident happened, most find no one...or at least not two.  you could say that.  

 

Four for stoning. Imran Hosein is wrong. In some cases, stoning is the punishment (but the requirements are never met anyway).

Edited by BuggyLemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AOA

 

i onced asked this to a Scholar and this is the reply i got.

 

 
There are various punishments found in Islamic law. Although the Quran calls for such punishments, it is important to note that these punishments are based in certain conditions. One of these conditions is that the act of adultery must be physically witnessed by four individuals for it to be accepted. Otherwise, the punishment is not carried out. This difficult condition makes it almost impossible to verify that the act has been carried out. Also, according to Islamic law, such crimes must happen in public, and not in the privacy of one's home for them to be considered. Another condition is that the punishment is not carried out by anyone who feels like it. In other words, it is the court which carries out such a punishment after all of the conditions are fulfilled. Furthermore, there are differences between scholars as to whether these punishments have to be carried out, or whether they may be substituted for other punishments. Thus, the issue is complex and not simply a matter of stoning for adultery.
 
I hope this all makes sense.
 
Best
 
 
Wassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam wb...

 

 

How should a person defend stoning, if he believes in it, to a non-muslim?

 

Isnt that a bit hard, because the non muslim will probably say that this is not humane, and to barbaric..

 

 

 

ws wb

Do you support chopping hands if someone steal?

 

Its essentially the same question.

 

Islam is holistic so are its rewards and punishments.

 

In a True Islamic government (not Suaids) where half of the population is living below poverty line, Islam lifts off the 'hand chopping' punishment. Same goes for stoning.  

 

If a True Islamic government provides means to marry (untimed or timed), a good living, a non-cultural barrier for people to get married, then if someone still commits ZANA, then by all means stone them to rubble. Just like what Imam Ali (as) said when Umer (laeen) banned Mutah (timed) marriage, had he not banned Mutah, only the most wretched would have committed zana.

 

So Umer banning Mutah took away any legitimacy from his so called Islamic government to enforce stoning for a zani.

 

One more thing, stoning is for the married person who has committed zana with another married person, essentially broken not just the Islamic sexual code but also the code of family and ancestry (in modern terms, would be booked under many statutes of law). Single person committing zana is sanctioned as lashing or capital punishment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

In a True Islamic government (not Suaids) where half of the population is living below poverty line, Islam lifts off the 'hand chopping' punishment.

 

Actually, apparently, the hand cutting punishment is only allowed to be enforced if the person is rich and only if he broke into someone's house to steal, along with about 20 other stringent conditions. If he is poor, this is invalid, etc.

 

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wsalam,

It is impossible to have four people witness adultery. People have been stonned to death with no evidence. Under the human law...

It is inhumane, but remind that non muslim that there are ruling behind it and its not possible to have four witness. God made it harder for humans to stone the person.

There was a story where a woman want to imam Ali (as) and asked to be stonned but imam ali (as) didnt stone her. I think humans should be more merciful before they make that big decision to stone someone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a True Islamic government (not Suaids) where half of the population is living below poverty line, Islam lifts off the 'hand chopping' punishment. Same goes for stoning.  

 

Which country is that?   And what  makes you think it is a true Islamic government? 

It is impossible to have four people witness adultery. 

 

Exactly

 

People have been stoned to death with no evidence.

 

Please provide references

 

 

Under the human law.

 

 References please, thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a kurdish girl that was stonned to death for loving a person thats not from her city. Its on youtube, theirs no evidence or four witness but she still got stoned. And thats human law for you in islamic countries.

Many woman have been the victums of stonning/lashing thats a fact you dont need reference, mr baqar.

Which country is that?   And what  makes you think it is a true Islamic government? 

 

Exactly

 

 

Please provide references

 

 

 

 References please, thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a kurdish girl that was stonned to death for loving a person thats not from her city. Its on youtube, theirs no evidence or four witness but she still got stoned. And thats human law for you in islamic countries.

 

 

The 'law of the jungle' suits better.

 

They wouldn't have stoned her so miserably if they had humanity or any respect for human law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which country is that?   And what  makes you think it is a true Islamic government? 

 

Exactly

 

 

Please provide references

 

 

 

 References please, thanks

You have google at your disposal I believe.

 

Find the country & references yourself please AND add something which is substantial yourself here.

 

Writing "references please" 20 times doesn't count as a substantial reply where we could learn something. :)

 

wassalm

Edited by Waiting for HIM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 'law of the jungle' suits better.

They wouldn't have stoned her so miserably if they had humanity or any respect for human

law.

I agree. I believe some of these

same atrocities against women are practiced in

Afghanistan as well. I saw a video/documentary

on YouTube about so-called "crimes" young

women commit regarding marrying someone of

their choice. Some of the families in the video

literally saw it as a crime and believed their own

daughters were worthy of jail sentence, getting

lashes, beating, etc. These types of families'

behaviour only perpetuated non-Islamic behavior

from the girls as they sought to escape their

parents punishments. I even remember one of

the girls interviewed said something like "my

father doesn't speak with words, he speaks with

swords".

It's called Love Crimes of Kabul

Edited by Mlle. Advice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Off topic but I'm just trying to imagine how two people could actually commit zena and have four witnesses.

 

I mean people have two choices they can either just sit there and watch or they can get up and assume what happened next. 

 

If they walked away doesn't that mean they didn't actually see what happened, they just assumed it would. And if they didn't actually see what happened doesn't that negate them as witnesses?

 

And lets say they sat there and watched what actually happened..... Shouldn't their mental stability be checked at this point? And if their mental stability is questionable then doesn't that negate them as witnesses yet again? 

 

I think its nearly impossible to get even one non-questionable witness. And I think Buggy-Lemon is right, perhaps it is a way for people to understand how drastic a sin it really is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

Off topic but I'm just trying to imagine how two people could actually commit zena and have four witnesses.

 

I mean people have two choices they can either just sit there and watch or they can get up and assume what happened next. 

 

If they walked away doesn't that mean they didn't actually see what happened, they just assumed it would. And if they didn't actually see what happened doesn't that negate them as witnesses?

 

And lets say they sat there and watched what actually happened..... Shouldn't their mental stability be checked at this point? And if their mental stability is questionable then doesn't that negate them as witnesses yet again? 

 

I think its nearly impossible to get even one non-questionable witness. And I think Buggy-Lemon is right, perhaps it is a way for people to understand how drastic a sin it really is. 

 

Yeah, go to 28:25. He talks about that :). The punishments were never actually meant to be enacted and they never will be enacted (unless Allah wills to expose someone). They are symbollic of the severe nature of the crimes, as sayyed Shirazi says.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by BuggyLemon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

 

@hasanhh,I am curious to know if you were so content with stoning if it were applied upon you or some relative of yours.....

 

I wouldn't mind... If they were wretched enough to commit adultery and stupid enough to admit it 4 times or let 4 people see them performing the act, then they deserve it.

 

(wasalam)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1.  Adultery in front of a crowd of people is a heinous crime

2.  All things being equal, a punishment for a crime should be proportional to it's severity

 

or slightly modify 2 to:

 

2'.  A criminal deserves to be punished in proportion to the severity of their crime.

 

 

Using premise (2) you get the conclusion that an adulterer should be punished very severely.  Using (2') you get the conclusion that an adulterer deserves to be punished very severely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Punishments like this are done in the benefit of the community. As Socrates showed us one must uphold the laws of the government to in which they live. And as many would say saving the life's of many by letting one go. And worst than death is oppression and one kind of dhulm oppression is on one's rights and another on one's self. This shows us that firstly in an Islamic state one must believe in what they claim subscription to fully knowing anything God commands is just and for our benefit. Secondly that saving many life's at the cost of one is acceptable to intellectuals. Thirdly that benefiting a large community and preventing them from oppression on personal rights and self oppression is a must. Therefore in places in the world where Muslims are majority and there are just judges such things are only for the widder benefit of that soceity. As for us here accepting it in heart is the first step in irfan even though it is forbidden by the intellect and Islam and the scholars to implement it here in the non Muslim majority.

Edited by Rohani

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...