Islam Bashing

**IloveImamHussain** · January 6, 2014

Hatred for Islam is nothing new.

When the Knights Templar entered Jerusalem during the Third Crusade, Jerusalem was a sea of Muslim blood.

And horrifyingly, even children were killed, put at the end of spits and proudly paraded through the city by the victors.

Massacre of Muslims in the city of Antioch is also believed to have been huge.

Muslims in their turn also killed Christians whenever they could.

All this was done with use of the Latin expression 'in imitatio Christi' - in imitation of Christ, or figuratively 'for the pleasure of Christ'.

In his famous work 'Inferno,' the Italian poet Dante placed the Holy Prophet of Islam and Imam Ali in the lowest parts of hell.

Dante's book is, by the way, regarded as a classic.

Various Popes at various points encouraged the enslavement of Muslims,among others.

In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the 'dum diversas' giving Portugal the right to attack, conquer and subjugate Saracens (another word for Arab Muslims), pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found, to put them into perpetual slavery and to take all their possessions and properties. In subsequent grants, Pope Calixtus III, Sixtus IV and Leo X, affirmed and encouraged slavery and subjugation.

In 1493, Pope Alexander VI granted Spain the right to conquer the lands that Columbus had discovered as well as others she might discover in the future. When Portugal raised concerns, the Pope divided the world into two halves, the two neighbours each receiving one.

Encouraged by the Church, European nations embarked on their brutal enslavement of the whole world, with Spain, Portugal, England and France in the lead.

In Calcutta, India, the Brits looted so much from the treasury that the loot had to be shipped on 75 barges upstream to the offices of the British East India Company.

And none of these colonial powers has ever apologized for their misdoings.

Nor did any leave of their colonies out of free volition.

One by one, they were all forced out.

And when they had to leave, with no more land left to conquer, their attention returned to the old enemy - Islam.

Islam is the butt of jokes and constant mockery by Christians far far more than any other religious group.

Traditionally, it was the Catholics who were at the throat of Islam.

(Of course, there were no Protestants until the Reformation.)

But now Protestants have joined the anti-Islam rally in full force.

Just go to 'you tube' and you cannot fail to see that almost every single pastor hates Islam with a fiery vengeance.

As we all know, pastors are not Catholic, they are all Protestants.

In all this drama, three question arise :-

· How long must this hatred be fed and sustained ?

· Why only Islam ?

(After all, no other religion has as many determined enemies today as Islam does and no one hates Islam as deeply as Christians do.)

· Will the Christians ever give up? Or will this fight go on until one of the two is finally put to sleep for ever ?

CLynn · January 6, 2014

Just go to 'you tube' and you cannot fail to see that almost every single pastor hates Islam with a fiery vengeance.

As we all know, pastors are not Catholic, they are all Protestants.

Greetings,

I'm just wondering if rejection of islam isn't being confused with hate?

Rejection of something is not the same as hatred.

If a pastor teaches his belief that islam is false... is this being interpreted as hatred?

Because this isn't hatred, this is difference of belief.

If an Imam teaches his belief that other religions are false, does this equate to hatred?

I do not believe pastors are teaching hatred of islam, just the belief in its falseness.

Are Imams teaching hatred of other religions?

Salaam,

CLynn

note: there are always some who are misguided, like that one in Florida who wanted to burn qur'ans.

On the whole Christianity teaches love, not hate.

second note: Do not confuse what world leaders do with what the church teaches.

Edited January 6, 2014 by CLynn

**IloveImamHussain** · January 6, 2014

I'm just wondering if rejection of islam isn't being confused with hate?

Not at all

I reject Christianity but I would never expressed hatred.

The Florida guy is not the only one.

The West is afloat in a sea of Islam haters.

CLynn · January 6, 2014

Not at all

I reject Christianity but I would never expressed hatred.

The Florida guy is not the only one.

The West is afloat in a sea of Islam haters.

Greetings,

Examples?

as I say... rejection of a belief or teaching, does not necessarily equate to hatred.

Anyone who has, or teaches, hatred, I say, does not have a true belief.

You are still saying "islam haters"

and I do not think this is accurate.

Salaam,

CLynn

note: if hatred were being taught you would see alot more hatred... in the streets...

mostly what you see among the Christian community is rejection of any pastor that seems to teach in a hateful manner.

Edited January 6, 2014 by CLynn

**IloveImamHussain** · January 6, 2014

On the whole Christianity teaches love, not hate

I am sure it does.

But not Christians.

If Christians loved the world, there would be no subjugation of people and no colonies.

If Christians loved others, the Church would not have made the statements I have quoted.

And there would be no pastors vying with one anther to condemn Islam.

Every religion rejects every other but the ferocity with which Christians express their hate is beyond belief.

Examples?

The only people I have seen on You Tube ferociously condemning Islam are Christians.

Sure, some people of other religions also hate Islam but in comparison, very few.

Are you aware that there are Hindu poets by the dozens who have said beautiful poems in praise of our Holy Prophet?

Have you heard of the great Sikh poet Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi and his poems in praise of Islam?

No, you haven't.

In fact, in the past, honest Christians have also had a good word for Islam - people like the Christian writer Khalil Gibran in the US, Thomas Carlyle in England and the Christian writer George Jordach in Lebanon.

But there have been very few compared to the haters.

rejection of a belief or teaching, does not necessarily equate to hatred.

I have already told you that I reject Christian beliefs.

But no one has ever heard or will ever hear a word of vilification from me.

There are lots of people who reject other religions but are never interested in vilifying them.

CLynn · January 6, 2014

If Christians loved the world, there would be no subjugation of people and no colonies.

Greetings,

I would amend this to say, 'if there were more true followers of Yshwe'...

Every religion rejects every other but the ferocity with which Christians express their hate is beyond belief.

are you kidding me? What about the mentally challenged girl in Pakistan that they wanted to kill when they accused her of tearing pages out of a book... the qur'an?

One instance you have people wanting to burn a book...

the other instance you have people wanting to kill the person who 'hurt' a book...

which is more full of hatred?

Are you aware that there are Hindu poets by the dozens who have said beautiful poems in praise of our Holy Prophet?
Have you heard of the great Sikh poet Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi and his poems in praise of Islam?

No, you haven't.
In fact, in the past, honest Christians have also had a good word for Islam - people like the Christian writer Khalil Gibran in the US, Thomas Carlyle in England and the Christian writer George Jordach in Lebanon.

Yes, I have read the praises given to Muhammad. I am just as aware of the criticisms.

The only man who has ever walked the earth of which there is no criticism, is Yshwe. This is because He was more than man, more than flesh, more than human, and committed no error.

There are lots of people who reject other religions but are never interested in vilifying them.

I agree, but there are also muslims who vilify Christianity and all other religion, as there are Christians that vilify islam.

This is the difference between truly guided, and misguided.

Salaam,

CLynn

Edited January 6, 2014 by CLynn

**IloveImamHussain** · January 6, 2014

What about the mentally challenged girl in Pakistan that they wanted to kill when they accused her of tearing pages out of a book... the qur'an?

You are talking about uneducated village people.

I am talking about highly educated people.

In any case, that action was not out of hatred for Christianity but love for the Prophet, who they felt had been insulted.

The only man who has ever walked the earth of which there is no criticism, is Yshwe.

That is our belief about our Holy Prophet.

Anyway, I find it very rude on your part to be pushing your beliefs on us.

This site is about discussion, not about forcing your views on others.

Edited January 6, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

CLynn · January 6, 2014

Anyway, I find it very rude on your part to be pushing your beliefs on us.

This site is about discussion, not about forcing your views on others.

Greetings,

I am sorry that you experience my responses as being rude. :mellow:

I am engaging in discussion. How do you feel I am 'forcing my views'?

Salaam,

CLynn

**IloveImamHussain** · January 6, 2014

I am engaging in discussion.

No, you are not.

How do you feel I am 'forcing my views'?

Engaging in discussion does not mean endlessly repeating your chants out of context.

If the context requires that you do it, sure enough go ahead.

But your gramophone doesn't stop.

That is uncivil.

**Reza** · January 7, 2014

Sounds like CLynn has entered the no spin zone.

**Son of Placid** · January 7, 2014

IloveImamHussain, on 06 Jan 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:
In all this drama, three question arise :-
· How long must this hatred be fed and sustained ?
· Why only Islam ?
(After all, no other religion has as many determined enemies today as Islam does and no one hates Islam as deeply as Christians do.)
· Will the Christians ever give up? Or will this fight go on until one of the two is finally put to sleep for ever ?

1.) Love and tolerance is being enforced the world over. The NWO will soon take care of all prejudice.

2.) It's not only Islam.

3.) Christians won't give up their Islamaphobia until Muslims quit blowing themselves up, blowing up buses, cars, embassies, future Olympic sites, etc. in the name of Allah.

Quite frankly, why should they? They don't know anything more about Islam than what they see and hear, and the kinds of things they hear are...

Somebody makes a Muhammad cartoon, Flags burnt, churches are burnt, innocent people died. Holocaust almost didn't happen.

911

Actually, anything said against Muhammad carries the threat of violence.

We can talk history as long as you like, but who's on the front page for modern day atrocities? Is this supposed to be some form of justified vengeance?

You can say these people are not real Muslims and I believe you but millions don't know the difference. It's just as blind an opinion as the Christian nation USA sends their Christian soldiers into Islamic countries to destroy Islam, (or gain control of oil). You cannot just toss Islam on the top of the pile.

You can no longer use the N word (unless you're a black rapper)

You can no longer say gays are wrong.

You must accept Aboriginals as an oppressed society that requires our sympathy.

Don't forget there's a dead Chinaman for every mile of railroad track through the mountains.

The list goes on but in each case we're talking 100+ years ago, yet we must be sensitive today.

My ancestors never had slaves, never killed Indians, didn't blow up Chinamen, and haven't oppressed gays yet It's getting to the point that I may as well keep my hands up in front of me, clasped so I can say sorry, sorry, sorry to everyone I meet on the sidewalk.

If you are not sorry for what white people did centuries ago you can be hated today, not by the races, religions, or genders that were oppressed but by the new "moral" generation of white people who are enforcing it. This also allows the oppressed to maintain their grudge against the white guy.

If you go to a Wal-Mart here, the first 24 stalls closest to the door are for the handicapped, (the people who brought their own wheels) No biggie because most of them are empty, but parking there will cost you $150. The next row is for mothers with small children.

If they were to continue on this path the next few rows would be for oppressed minorities, then minorities in general, but way way at the far end would be Caucasian, middle aged, blue collar heterosexual males, and the lot would be gravel.

I just got unfriended for my opinions about natives. Would I be offended if a couple showed up at my Halloween party wearing feathers and war paint? First off, I'd never have a Halloween party, secondly, I'd never go to one, but my opinion was they should be prouder of the age when they wore feathers than what they've become since. Some would read this and think Whoa, SOP hates natives. No I don't. Everyone, regardless of race. creed, religion, on an on, get treated more on how they approach me, or my son, whom I raised to have no prejudice, which sadly left him somewhat gullible.

The Chief of the Morley reserve agreed the Canadian government could build them a new area to build on. Ibn SOP was the one to make sure the project ran well. He needed a liaison determined by the chief to keep the peace. A friendly attempt at interaction left ibn SOP hearing one say, "I'll be watching you...thru the scope of my 30-06. The locals talked him into taking a puppy. Cute? Oh yeah, but $400. later was put down for having parvo. If ibn SOPs wife was not so prudent they could have lost the dog they had, not blaming but grandchild sick from then( 3 wks) till his 4 day stint in the hospital made me wonder. K, so ibn SOP goes back to warn them of parvo and his $4C expenses and they laugh at him. I regret I made my kids gullible by teaching them all people are equal, and inherently good. At the same time I must shut my mouth about who is trustworthy and who is not, and pretend to assume they are all equal and inherently good so society does not hate me,

Same applies...

shreek · January 7, 2014

I am sure it does.
But not Christians.
If Christians loved the world, there would be no subjugation of people and no colonies.
If Christians loved others, the Church would not have made the statements I have quoted.
And there would be no pastors vying with one anther to condemn Islam.
Every religion rejects every other but the ferocity with which Christians express their hate is beyond belief.
The only people I have seen on You Tube ferociously condemning Islam are Christians.
Sure, some people of other religions also hate Islam but in comparison, very few.
Are you aware that there are Hindu poets by the dozens who have said beautiful poems in praise of our Holy Prophet?
Have you heard of the great Sikh poet Kunwar Mohinder Singh Bedi and his poems in praise of Islam?
No, you haven't.
In fact, in the past, honest Christians have also had a good word for Islam - people like the Christian writer Khalil Gibran in the US, Thomas Carlyle in England and the Christian writer George Jordach in Lebanon.
But there have been very few compared to the haters.
I have already told you that I reject Christian beliefs.
But no one has ever heard or will ever hear a word of vilification from me.
There are lots of people who reject other religions but are never interested in vilifying them.

You need to go back centuries to find an obscure reference of the church condemning Islam?

What about now?

What is the position of the Church on Islam?

You wonder why it's only Protestants that attack Islam?

Here is the position (in sum) of the Church:

Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium" says: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day" (LG 16).

Now do we differ theologically? Ofcourse. But you will never see the Church (catholic) attacking (hate) Islam.

Oh and those writers you quoted Gibran Khalil Gibran and Jordach are Lebanese and lived with Muslims. It was not their Christianity per se but their upbringing/ethnicity that affected their views.

In any case, No offence, but the biggest vilifiers of Islam are Muslims themselves.

Edited January 7, 2014 by shreek

**baqar** · January 7, 2014

No offence, but the biggest vilifiers of Islam are Muslims themselves.

No offence at all.

That has been true since the day Islam began.

Oh and those writers you quoted Gibran Khalil Gibran and Jordach are Lebanese and lived with Muslims. It was not their Christianity per se but their upbringing/ethnicity that affected their views.

I think their high regard for Islam was also because they had a more in-depth knowledge of Islam than Europeans do.

You need to go back centuries to find an obscure reference of the church condemning Islam? What about now? What is the position of the Church on Islam?

You are right, the RC church has been very good to Muslims in recent times.

That is a good change from a not so happy past.

Let us hope both sides can keep it that way.

Now do we differ theologically? Of course.

Theological differences should of course be no barrier to friendship and humanity.

The total number of non-Muslim friends I have had in my life exceeds the Muslim tally.

Funnily, two of the sweetest friends I have ever had were atheists.

shreek · January 8, 2014

I think their high regard for Islam was also because they had a more in-depth knowledge of Islam than Europeans do.
.

Have you read what Khalil Gibran or Jordach wrote about Imam Ali (as)?

Beautiful words on par with anything written by a Marja3.

**baqar** · January 8, 2014

Have you read what Khalil Gibran or Jordach wrote about Imam Ali (as)? Beautiful words on par with anything written by a Marja3.

My good friend Shreek

I have a copy of an English translation of George Jordach's 'SAUT-e-ADALAT-e-INSANIA' which as you surely know means 'The Voice of Human Justice'.

This Christian scholar is head over heels in love with Imam Ali.

I have not seen many Muslims express the love that Jordach has for Imam Ali.

I have only read Gibran's words about Imam Ali that Jordach refers to in the above book.

If you have other information, please share it with us here.

Thanks

PeaceLoving · January 8, 2014

Yes, I have read the praises given to Muhammad. I am just as aware of the criticisms.

Hi Clynn

Greetings

Before I write, I request you to please copy and paste what I write below because this thread will sooner or later disappear into oblivion.

Yes, indeed, you are quite right. All great people have to share their praises with their criticisms. As far as criticisms go, critics of Islam are indeed zealously committed to their task. So, let us forget about the praises and talk about the criticisms.

And while it may not always be easy to see, criticisms against our Holy Prophet are often hate-based.

But not all.

· Some do actually refer to events that are reported in various books. Critics may add their own spin but they do refer to events in certain history or hadeeth books.

However, the question arises 'Are they really all true'?

So let us begin.

Now some people may not be aware but large parts of Islamic history are fabrications. If that is true, it would mean that the events that people quote from to base their criticisms cannot really be used as evidence. By history, I mean history as well as hadeeth. In fact, hadeeth is actually a part of history, so I will use the term 'history' to refer to a combination of both. The argument that applies to one also applies to the other.

· The first thing one notices about Islamic history is that there is no such thing as a single version that can be cast in stone. No, there just isn't. And there are a lot of variations between existing accounts.

So what does that mean?

It means that some accounts must definitely be false.

You might ask how Muslims try and establish which account is true and which is not?

Obviously, every individual cannot possibly have the resources to study all the multiple versions of history. The best they can do is to accept scholars that they trust.

So what happens if the scholar you trust is wrong and someone else is right? Problem! Right?

And what happens if none of them is right? Bigger problem!

By now, you might hopefully agree that it could be very difficult to arrive at quick conclusions from the multiple versions of Islamic history.

· But let us go further.

Please allow me to explain how and why Islamic history became such a mess.

First of all, let us see how we would rate the quality of an account that is written 2-3 centuries after the event.

Is it possible that as time rolls on, the accuracy gradually diminishes?

I think it does.

The first thing we see is that history and hadeeth books were both written 200-300 years after the demise of the Prophet.

It means that, other factors remaining equal, the probability of accuracy is less than it would have been if they were written 100 years after the event.

And even less if they were written 50 years after the event and so on.

Next, let us think of the people who wrote those accounts.

It should be obvious that however honest they may have been, there is little doubt that the quality of their works would be affected by the denomination (and / or set of personal beliefs) that they subscribed to.

And remember, Islam, by this time, had indeed split into irreconcilable divisions. And the divisions were very deep.

In any case, let us assume all these writers were honest people, who would not allow their denominational allegiances and prejudices to affect the quality of their work.

· So the next question is - 'But where did they get their information from'?

Since there were no written records, one would expect that they would got them from people who lived in their day. Right?

And where would the people living at the time have got their information ?

Obviously, by word of mouth from the previous generation and so on for however many generations there were since the demise of the Prophet until the accounts were written.

It should not be difficult to see that the material would be diluted and contaminated in ways that are hard to imagine, by the time it came down to those who penned it 200-300 years after the demise of the Prophet.

I am sure you know what re-telling does to any story. Add personal bias and prejudice to the mix and the result is a cocktail of disastrous proportions.

· Last point, let us briefly evaluate the character of the Muslims who lived during the 200 - 300 years after the Prophet.

I would put to you that Muslims had either forgotten the Prophet's teachings or they had never truly accepted them.

Why? Because they turned against his family with a vengeance.

Do you really believe that such Muslims would be truly sincere to the cause of Islam and be interested in honestly propagating the facts of history?

Within a half century of the Prophet's death, Muslims had killed 18 members of his immediate family in one single day.

And what did the rest of the Muslim world do while this massacre was going on?

They - that is the overwhelming majority - just sat back and watched.

What do you think the very small minority of the sincere ones could do against the avalanche of insincere ones, apart from getting themselves killed? Very little. In fact, nothing.

The persecution of the Prophet's progeny actually continued for centuries to come.

Do you really think that these 'Muslims' who barely had any true love for their Prophet could be described as true Muslims, truly interested in propagating the truth about Islam?

I believe that is simply out of the question.

I have told you what I know because I have noticed that lots of people are quickly won over by hearsay and hate-filled rumors.

I am not sure where you live but if you live in North America or Europe, you will hear Islam haters unleash their lethal venom frequently - in books, on videos, in the Internet and wherever else they possibly can. Most of these people are highly educated. They have the gift of words and the ability to spin. But they are pathological Islam haters.

Now you are welcome to believe them if you wish. Or you could ask them questions based on what I have written.

The choice is yours.

And as I said in the beginning, please keep a copy of this post with you.

Thanks for your time.

Cheers

Edited January 8, 2014 by PeaceLoving

andres · January 9, 2014

Hi Peace

Your post is OK

Greerings

CLynn · January 10, 2014

Greetings PeaceLoving,

Yes, history, and historians are unreliable.
This is why I always go back to the statment of Yshwe...
'You will know them by their fruits'

Have we ever found a single criticism recorded regarding Yshwe?
No, because Yshwe was more than human... He was Divine.

"The only man who has ever walked the earth of which there is no criticism, is Yshwe. This is because He was more than man, more than flesh, more than human, and committed no error." - C.Lynn

"First of all, let us see how we would rate the quality of an account that is written 2-3 centuries after the event. "

What about when the accounts are written by many different authors in all different places in the world, and the stories match?
This is why we know it is the Divine Word of God.
Just as, the world over, everyone has a flood story.
This is when the stories as written become acceptable historical records... when there are many that match one another.

"I am not sure where you live but if you live in North America or Europe, you will hear Islam haters unleash their lethal venom frequently - in books, on videos, in the Internet and wherever else they possibly can. Most of these people are highly educated. They have the gift of words and the ability to spin. But they are pathological Islam haters. "

I can't agree with this statement.
I don't think it is true that 'islam-hating' is a regular topic of discussion. Only people who go looking for information on islam will become aware such things. Maybe this concept comes from all the west-bashing that goes on in other parts of the world, but I don't think the general public in the west concern themselves with the topic. I think that they are generally just going about business as usual, trusting their governments to handle threats from outside. The thing is when you live in a place where freedom of religion is accepted you don't really worry about other people's religions... only the lack thereof, and maybe not even that.

Salaam,

CLynn

Edited January 10, 2014 by CLynn

PeaceLoving · January 10, 2014

What about when the accounts are written by many different authors in all different places in the world, and the stories match?

Greetings Clynn

That is the point.

In the case of Islamic history, they don't match.

And in any case, matching is by no means an absolute litmus test to guarantee accuracy.

I have already described to you the quality of people who passed the information on from one generation to the next for countless generations.

I don't think it is true that 'Islam-hating' is a regular topic of discussion.

You are right but it does exist in fairly serious proportions.

Indeed, most people may not be involved but those that are are very active in spreading their hate.

And there are some pretty powerful people among them.

Just as, the world over, everyone has a flood story.

Not the world over,

Only in Abraham tradition.

In any case, there are many modern scholars who reject the Noah story and many similar stories.

**baqar** · January 10, 2014

This is when the stories as written become acceptable historical records.

Hi Clynn

Acceptability is not a true indicator of accuracy. Anyway, the reasons for the inaccuracy of historical accounts have already been given to you. If you do not wish to believe that heaps of hadeeths have been fabricated, well no one can force you to. The fact that they were passed on by word of mouth by people for a more than two centuries - people many of whom were absolutely unreliable is actually the outcome of the Shia-Sunni split. Since mainstream Muslims found that the fabricated accounts supported them more in their fight with the minorities than they did their rivals, they declared their acceptance. And since these Muslims are numerically in the majority, accounts accepted by them have filtered down to the non-Muslim world. In their heart of hearts, learned Muslims know that they are backing the lame horse, but until the Shia-Sunni dispute lasts, they will not recant. There is no chance of a Shia-Sunni rapprochement in the foreseeable future and therefore people will continue to be fed with all these falsehoods.

It is Islam's misfortune, that is all.

HamzaTR · January 10, 2014

Salam. The very first hadith I remember to have read and loved in shia islamic sources was this;

"The scholars (rabbis, pastors, fuqaha) are the trustees of the prophets until they are not involved in the worldly matters."

People asked, "What is their ‘entering in the worldly matters, O the holy Prophet of Allah?"

"Their following the kings is entering in the worldly matters.

When they follow the kings then you must be very careful in involving them in your religion."

The very pastors you describe sadly are not the true Christians described in Quran, 5:82 where Allah says, nearest in love to Muslims are Christians. Because, the verse mentioned tells they (especially monks) renounce the world and they are not arrogant. Whereas these pastors, because they are involved in worldly matters and because they make mistakes while involving it and choose the oppressors' side, and because they turn into some patriots defending and even legitimating their arrogant rulers/governments, they change their own religion and portray bad the other peaceful faiths also.. Same we have among muslims, namely wahabi and salafis. In any case, we surely see the speeches, actions etc. of them for extremist words are the loudest. And, I do have faith that the number of true Christians namely Latin American, Lebanese etc. ones who renounced the world etc. exceeds the lunatic ones bought by superpowers. Same goes for Muslims (shia, sufi, sunni muslims vs wahabi, salafi takfiris). But, again, sadly we only hear the extremist words of the lunatics and inshaAllah they will stop speaking so loudly soon enough with the re-coming of the Messiah and Mahdi.

ma salam

Edited January 10, 2014 by HamzaTR

**IloveImamHussain** · January 11, 2014

The very pastors you describe sadly are not the true Christians

Salam

You are right but they are causing humiliation and damage to Islam.

inshaAllah they will stop speaking so loudly soon enough with the re-coming of the Messiah and Mahdi.

Yes, sure but that is not a good reason to leave them alone.

Their abusive hate is, at present, a one-way street.

At this point, there is hardly any response from Muslims of any meaningful description.

Would you leave the matter to rest if your father was humiliated or slandered by his enemies ?

I don't think you would.

I don't think the Messiah and the Mahdi will be happy to see us just sit back with folded hands waiting, waiting, waiting.

We must accept their challenge with the same vengeance that they set for themselves in their hatred.

And I don't think it is too difficult.

We should persuade our scholars to challenge these psychos to debates.

I believe there are a few Shia scholars in the West.

Those who were not born in the the country where the debate is held may need an interpreter.

But that does not mean that a challenge is not possible.

I think it is.

I think the main scene of events is in the US, so perhaps Shias living in North America should make a move, talk to the scholars there and persuade them to throw the gauntlet.

Some of the people that we could challenge are :-

Robert Spencer
Daniel Pipes
Susan Crimp
Gregory M Davis
Joel Richardson
ibn Warraq
A Sina
Ayan Hirsi
Wafa Sultan
Geert Wilders
Karl Heinz Ohlig
Gerd Puin

They are all writers, speakers, bloggers, noise makers - very influential people.

You can Google them.

The complete list, if one could compile one, is much bigger.

But they are a tad less powerful than the Almighty God.

So we should place our trust in God and take them on.

If God wills, they will met like ice cream in the Sahara.

And we could arrange for a team of unbiased judges to grade the quality of the arguments and publish them for all to read.

Otherwise a debate makes no sense.

Most of these psychos are in North America, a few in Europe.

The stakes are very high. It is up to us to make a move.

Note: Most of these people are terribly smart with an extraordinary gift with words. We have to be careful who we send into the arena. It needs to be well-planned by reading their arguments and preparing well. Just being knowledgeable is not enough to debate. One needs to be a good speaker and quick-witted, with a good presence of mind. The enemy is powerful and well-organized.

Edited January 11, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

shreek · January 11, 2014

Religion is essentially about teaching love, tolerance and respect for others and for yourself (own religion).

So anyone or any 'religion' that teaches otherwise I know to be a false religion.

I have serious issues about Islam as well as other Christian denominations, but I have no right to judge others or condemn them, this unique attribute can only be reserved to God.

I can however debate theologically on certain dogmatic issues and I find this most fulfilling and enjoyable with like minded, non ignorant friends.

However I find certain groups anathema to me and abhor them intensely, although I shouldn't as a Christian.

I am sure most Sunnis are very respectful and honest and loving people.

Nevertheless movements like Wahhabism or the Salafists have sullied Islam and these are the groups that promote hatred, violence, death on others Muslims or non Muslims alike.

This is unfortunately the face of Islam westerners and the (ignorant) world see.

It doesn't help that the (Sunni) aHadiths are full of the most vile and disgusting literature I have ever read and they are regarded as 'Sahih'.

So unless a (Muslim) Luther comes to the fore to reform (Sunni) Islam the issue of 'Islam Bashing' will continue.

**IloveImamHussain** · January 11, 2014

I have serious issues about Islam as well as other Christian denominations,

I understand that.

I believe we all have issues with one another.

The fact that some flavors of Islam may be different to others is, however, not the issue.

I am only suggesting that Shia scholars take up the challenge, regardless of what the Saheeh that some sects believe in contain.

If we have confidence, we should go ahead.

If we do well, Islam bashing may suffer a blow - perhaps not a fatal blow, but a blow nevertheless.

That is what I think we should aim for.

I find no satisfactory reason for the complacency.

But I am not a man of any influence.

So I thought that someone may read my grievance some day and act on it, if he so wills.

May be - just may be

Edited January 11, 2014 by IloveImamHussain

**IloveImamHussain** · January 11, 2014

I might add that the reason for what I have said is that I have read some of the books of some of these players in the game and seen first hand how flawed their arguments.

Also seen the same in blogs and You Tube videos.

So the task is not all that stupendous.

It does require a fair bit of planning,but is not outside our reach.

**Jahangiram** · January 11, 2014

It doesn't help that the (Sunni) aHadiths are full of the most vile and disgusting literature I have ever read and they are regarded as 'Sahih'.
So unless a (Muslim) Luther comes to the fore to reform (Sunni) Islam the issue of 'Islam Bashing' will continue.

You've never read the Old Testament?

SpaceMM- · January 26, 2014

I have strong opinions about Islam, [Edited]. Do I hate Muslims or Islam or am I an Islamic basher - No.

As for your examples.. What about the Islamic conquest of Iberia? Islamic conquest of the Balkans? Islamic conquest of Italian peninsula? Islamic attack of France? Russia?Asia minor peninsula?

When they attacked the Muslims did similar things, killed and looted everyone. And in fact Islam allows looting and war booty.

Same could be said for Muslims. Why do they hate Christians? Why has most of the Christian and Jewish population of Islamic countries been kicked out?

Why are they being attacked.. It works both ways

Also most westerns don't hate Islam either. If any prominent figure so much as criticises Islam they get called "Islamophobic" in the media. I don't know many people who hate Islam.

The worst that people will say is that they "live in the 7th century" and that's pretty much it.

Edited February 16, 2014 by inshaAllah
Keep strong opinions to yourself if you're unable to convey them in appropriate manner. Our first rule: blasphemy/disrespect towards the Prophet and His family may result in a permanent ban without notice. Warned and suspended for 12 hours.

Fatima Hussain · January 26, 2014

Of course there is a lot of Islam bashing going on among Christians. This probably became more intense during the Crusades and anti-Islamic sentiments have lingered ever since. As Muslims though, we should not preach anti-Christian rhetoric in return, but unfortunately, I have noticed this happens far too often. Not all Christians hate Muslims. My own parents are Christian and they certainly do not.

**placid** · January 27, 2014

Hi Fatima,

Quote: Of course there is a lot of Islam bashing going on among Christians. This probably became more intense during the Crusades and anti-Islamic sentiments have lingered ever since. As Muslims though, we should not preach anti-Christian rhetoric in return, but unfortunately, I have noticed this happens far too often. Not all Christians hate Muslims. My own parents are Christian and they certainly do not.

Response: --- Most Christians today don’t even know what the Crusades were, --- so their opinion of Islam just dates back to 9/11, --- The attack on the Twin Towers by Muslim terrorists. --- It was after that that I read the Quran and studied the calling of Muhammad, and learned how close his teaching was to Christianity to begin with. --- Surah 5:82-86.

Quote: ‘Not all Christians hate Muslims,’ --- In fact true believers, who live by the commandments of Jesus, that “We love God and love our neighbors,” --- actually pray for Muslims and reach out to them.

I believe that the desire of most of us is to, “Live and let live” as we raise our families in peace and safety, --- and worship God in truth, and honor Him in our daily lives.

**Son of Placid** · January 27, 2014

Muslim = terrorist = threat.

The majority of what is bad in the world these days has been blamed on Muslims. How would you expect uninformed and ignorant people to react?

These blatantly misinformed people see Islam as wanting to take over the world. Every time they see a Muslim they fear the day is getting closer. They have no idea the real terrorist movement is fueled by the C.I.A.

SpaceMM- · January 27, 2014

Well to be honest the Islamic armies had come up through the Iberian peninsula into France, pillaging and looting as they went. The Christians kicked them out of northern France and eventually expelled them from Spain

Same with the Italian peninsula, where Muslims came through killing and pillaging as they went.

Again, the same in Byzantine lands, they took parts of Syria, Palestine, Turkey and moved into the Balkans.

Destroying, pillaging and killing as they went.

This was all hundreds of years before the crucades.

So wouldn't one say that it was the Muslims who started this? As they where clearly the aggressors. When the Turks and other Muslims where slaughtering the Eastern Christians in Palestine, then the crusades where called to save them and re take the land that was taken from the Christians.

So you can't blame anti Islam sentiment on Christians in Europe at all, as you've missed out hundreds of years of Islamic aggression! Silly thread.

Edited January 27, 2014 by SpaceMM-

**Jahangiram** · January 27, 2014

Well to be honest the Islamic armies had come up through the Iberian peninsula into France, pillaging and looting as they went. The Christians kicked them out of northern France and eventually expelled them from Spain
Same with the Italian peninsula, where Muslims came through killing and pillaging as they went.
Again, the same in Byzantine lands, they took parts of Syria, Palestine, Turkey and moved into the Balkans.
Destroying, pillaging and killing as they went.
This was all hundreds of years before the crucades.
So wouldn't one say that it was the Muslims who started this? As they where clearly the aggressors. When the Turks and other Muslims where slaughtering the Eastern Christians in Palestine, then the crusades where called to save them and re take the land that was taken from the Christians.
So you can't blame anti Islam sentiment on Christians in Europe at all, as you've missed out hundreds of years of Islamic aggression! Silly thread.

The thing is this is normal of any war, the difference in the case of the latin Christians is that they intentionally murdered non combatants and performed the worst savagery on those they conquered (there wasn't just a crusade against muslims...there were also heretics and others invaded within Europe by the Pope).

And bad history, the call for the conquest of Jerusalem was because of the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre by the Egyptian caliph Al-Hakim almost a century before (and it was repaired by then at the request of the byzantines..so much ado about nothing). From the anti-muslim websites that ive seen the crusade was justified as a reconquest of a former Christian land, so it had little to do with the turks and more to do with re-establishing Christian dominion of the Holy Land.

**placid** · January 27, 2014

If we are trying to solve the problem of Islam bashing, and Christian bashing, --- why are we still doing it in these posts? --- The blame game brings no solutions.

Those who spend their time in the past to try and justify the present, are not looking to the future, are they?

In studying the Quran, I read these verses in Surah 5:

82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86 But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- So, my simple question is, “What ‘revelation received by the Apostle’ was Muhammad teaching, that the Christians agreed with?”

--- It must have been truth that the Christians already believed, “Their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth.”

And their belief in God was recognized and would be, “Rewarded with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home.”

It was likely part of Surah 5 --- So what would this ‘revelation,‘ have been?

Let’s quit living in the past and seek out what God wants us to do in preparing for the future.

--- Perhaps we could start again from this ‘revelation’ where they were in harmony, --- and with a promise of God’s reward.

Fatima Hussain · January 27, 2014

Hi Fatima,
Quote: Of course there is a lot of Islam bashing going on among Christians. This probably became more intense during the Crusades and anti-Islamic sentiments have lingered ever since. As Muslims though, we should not preach anti-Christian rhetoric in return, but unfortunately, I have noticed this happens far too often. Not all Christians hate Muslims. My own parents are Christian and they certainly do not.
Response: --- Most Christians today don’t even know what the Crusades were, --- so their opinion of Islam just dates back to 9/11, --- The attack on the Twin Towers by Muslim terrorists. --- It was after that that I read the Quran and studied the calling of Muhammad, and learned how close his teaching was to Christianity to begin with. --- Surah 5:82-86.
Quote: ‘Not all Christians hate Muslims,’ --- In fact true believers, who live by the commandments of Jesus, that “We love God and love our neighbors,” --- actually pray for Muslims and reach out to them.
I believe that the desire of most of us is to, “Live and let live” as we raise our families in peace and safety, --- and worship God in truth, and honor Him in our daily lives.

People are not necessarily conscious of all the historical events that have shaped their society's way of thinking and consequently, their way of thinking, but that does not mean the historical event did not have an impact, nonetheless. And anyways, were we specifically talking about Islam bashing in the USA? Because the views of many Europeans has certainly been shaped by the Crusades. Still though, I don't think we can say that all of the Islam bashing started after 9/11 when Muslims have been depicted as villains or immoral long before then ("Not Without My Daughter", and then of course, there are the old movies that showed Muslims and more specifically Arabs as being sexually loose.)

Edited January 27, 2014 by Fatima Hussain

SpaceMM- · January 28, 2014

The thing is this is normal of any war, the difference in the case of the latin Christians is that they intentionally murdered non combatants and performed the worst savagery on those they conquered (there wasn't just a crusade against muslims...there were also heretics and others invaded within Europe by the Pope).

So did the Muslims... That was the main reason for the first crusade... To protect the Eastern Christians from the oppression and slaughter

Read Michael the Syrian's work, he was a Syrian Orthadox Christian who liked the Templar crusaders, as he said that there where extremely charitable and protective of the Christians there.

nd bad history, the call for the conquest of Jerusalem was because of the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre by the Egyptian caliph Al-Hakim almost a century before (and it was repaired by then at the request of the byzantines..so much ado about nothing). From the anti-muslim websites that ive seen the crusade was justified as a reconquest of a former Christian land, so it had little to do with the turks and more to do with re-establishing Christian dominion of the Holy Land.

The Crusaders only wanted Jerusalem. Yes it was about retaking the former Christian land back from the Muslim invaders.

Anyway just ignore the whole thousand year of Muslims invading Christian lands, raping, murdering and looting as they went. Just focus on how the crusades are the cause for anti Islam sentiment.

Not the fact that Muslims have been invading Christian countries for about 1400 years. No that wouldn't of made Christians annoyed at the Muslims and Islam at all would it? Getting their possessions stolen, their monasteries looted and their women taken. How dare they get annoyed at that!

Or is that all just "crusader propaganda" too?

Edited January 28, 2014 by SpaceMM-

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