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Posted
On 1/5/2014 at 3:13 AM, Ibn Al-Ja said:

The first view:

 
The first view is that she was buried in Jannat Al-Baqi', and Shaykh Al-Radhy introduces this view better than I can when he writes:
 
القول الأول من الأقوال الثلاثة أنها مدفونة في البقيع في دار عقيل بن أبي طالب أو بالقرب منها أو مع ابنها الإمام الحسن عليه السلام
 
The first statement from the three statements is that she is buried in Al-Baqi', in the house of 'Aqil ibn Abi Talib, or in proximity to it, or with her son Al-Hasan ('as).

This view suggests as can be seen that Fatimah Zahra ('as) was buried in Jannat Al-Baqi', and this is the most common opinion among laymen and scholars today I have seen, that She ('as) is buried with Imam Hasan ('as). However, I have done research for this view and have not come across any narrations, although I found it referred to Manaqib Ibn Shahr Ashub, and Rawdhat Al-Wa'idhin, Insha'Allah if someone has information on this they can bring it to light.

Which scholars akhi? and by laymen do you mean aAmmah?

  • Veteran Member
Posted

(salam)

In Kitab al-Irshad it has been recorded, Imam Hassan (as), when he asks himself to be buried in al-Baqi, he says bury me besides Fatima bint al-Asad and he is not making a reference to his direct mother, Fatima bint Muhammad (sa) - which could also be used as another proof that indicates that perhaps her grave is not in al-Baqi.

Quote
When I have died, shut my eyes, wash me and shroud me. Then carry me on my bier to the grave of my grandfather, the Apostle of God, may God bless him and his family, so that I may renew my covenant with him. After that take me to the grave of my grandmother, Fatima daughter of Asad, may God be pleased with her, and bury me there.

Then they went on with (the body of) al-Hasan, peace be on him, and they buried him in (the cemetery of) al-Baqi' beside his grandmother, Fatima daughter of Asad b. Hashim b. 'Abd Manaf, may God be pleased with her.

The view regarding the Prophet (pbuh) saying that her grave is near the pulpit. First of all, why was the Prophet (pbuh) saying her grave is there when he hadn't even passed away? If he mentioned this, wouldn't the companions have known about it? Who was the Prophet (pbuh) addressing in that narration?

Wassalam

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Posted
On 1/5/2014 at 4:41 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

(salam)

In Kitab al-Irshad it has been recorded, Imam Hassan (as), when he asks himself to be buried in al-Baqi, he says bury me besides Fatima bint al-Asad and he is not making a reference to his direct mother, Fatima bint Muhammad (sa) - which could also be used as another proof that indicates that perhaps her grave is not in al-Baqi.

The view regarding the Prophet (pbuh) saying that her grave is near the pulpit. First of all, why was the Prophet (pbuh) saying her grave is there when he hadn't even passed away? If he mentioned this, wouldn't the companions have known about it? Who was the Prophet (pbuh) addressing in that narration?

Wassalam

prophet did not say that between his grave and his pulpit will be the grave of syedah Fatimah, the very famous hadith that is accepted by Sunnis and Shiis is "between my pulpit and minbar a rawdhaah, one from heavens" the hadith then continues as per Imam's words (i guess) "it is a rawdhaah because Fatimah was buried there"

If we can prove that Syedah Fatimah house was between prophet's house and his minbar, then the 2 last views can be combined together.

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Posted
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 
On 1/5/2014 at 4:41 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

(salam)

In Kitab al-Irshad it has been recorded, Imam Hassan (as), when he asks himself to be buried in al-Baqi, he says bury me besides Fatima bint al-Asad and he is not making a reference to his direct mother, Fatima bint Muhammad (sa) - which could also be used as another proof that indicates that perhaps her grave is not in al-Baqi.

The view regarding the Prophet (pbuh) saying that her grave is near the pulpit. First of all, why was the Prophet (pbuh) saying her grave is there when he hadn't even passed away? If he mentioned this, wouldn't the companions have known about it? Who was the Prophet (pbuh) addressing in that narration?

Wassalam

The narration you presented from Kitab Al-Irshad volume 2 page 17:

وروى عبد الله بن إبراهيم عن زياد المخارقي قال: لما حضرت الحسن عليه السلام الوفاة استدعى الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام فقال: " يا أخي، إني مفارقك ولاحق بربي عزوجل وقد سقيت السم ورميت بكبدي في الطست، وإني لعارف بمن سقاني السم، ومن أين دهيت، وأنا أخاصمه إلى الله تعالى، فبحقي عليك إن تكلمت في ذلك بشئ، وانتظر ما يحدث الله عز ذكره في، فإذا قضيت فغمضني وغسلني وكفني واحملني على سريري إلى قبر جدي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لاجدد به عهدا، ثم ردني إلى قبر جدتي فاطمة بنت أسد رحمة الله عليها فادفني هناك

And [it was] narrated [by] 'Abdullah ibn Ibrahim [who learned] from Ziyad Al-Makhrizi [who] said: When Al-Hasan ibn 'Ali ('as) was close to death, he summoned Al-Hussain ibn 'Ali ('as) and said: "Oh my brother, I am leaving you and joining my Lord. I have been given poison to drink and vomited out my insides into the basin. And I am aware of the person who poisoned me, and from where I have been made a subject to of this deceitful action. And I will be in opposition to him to Allah the almighty. So by my right upon you, do not say anything about that thing, and wait for what Allah will decide concerning me. So when I have expired, shut my [eyes], and wash me, and enshroud me, and carry me on my bier to the grave of my grandfather, the Messenger of Allah (saawa), so I may renew to him my covenant. Then return me to the grave of my grandmother Fatimah bint Asad, may Allah take mercy upon her, and bury me there.

The reason why I don't think this is talking about the grave of Syeda Zahra ('as) is because there's similar hadith in Al-Kafi where Imam Al-Hasan ('as) gives his will to his brother, but differentiates the grave of his mother and Al-Baqi':

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن بكر بن صالح [قال الكليني] وعدة من أصحابنا، عن ابن زياد، عن محمد بن سليمان الديلمي، عن هارون بن الجهم، عن محمد ابن مسلم قال سمعت ابا جفعر عليه السلام يقول: لما حضر الحسن بن علي عليهما السلام الوفاة قال للحسين عليه السلام: يا أخي إني اوصيك بوصية فاحفظها، إذا أنا مت فهيئني ثم وجهني إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لاحدث به عهدا ثم اصرفني إلى امي عليها السلام ثم ردني فادفني بالبقيع

[Al-Kulayni reports a narration from]: 'Ali ibn Ibrahim [who learned] from his father [who learned] from Bakr ibn Salih, [Al-Kulayni [also] said]: And from a group of our companions [who learned] from Muhammad ibn Sulayman Al-Daylami [who learned] from Harun ibn Al-Jahm [who learned] from Muhammad ibn Muslim, he said: I heard Abu Ja'far (Al-Baqir ('as)) [and] he [was] saying: When Al-Hasan ibn 'Ali ('as) was close to death, he said to Al-Hussain ibn 'Ali ('as): Oh my brother, I command you with a will [of mine] so guard it; when I die, prepare me (ie. for death), then direct me to the Messenger of Allah (saawa), so I may renew with him my pact. Then take me to my mother ('as), then return me and bury me in Al-Baqi'.

Al-Kafi volume 1 page 300

Then both narrations go on to talk about how his funeral was disturbed. Getting to the point of my argument, Imam Hasan ('as) differentiated between the two sites in his wording in the second Hadith, saying to return and bury his body to Al-Baqi' after seeing his mother, if they were in the same place (meaning Syeda Zahra ('as)'s body was in Jannat Al-Baqi'), why would there be a need to make a difference in where his mother was and Al-Baqi', and saying to return him to Al-Baqi' after seeing his mother.

On 1/5/2014 at 4:20 AM, IbnSohan said:

Which scholars akhi? and by laymen do you mean aAmmah?

Scholars I've seen, pretty much any Pakistani speaker I've listened to at the Imambargas, scholars who come and go in our masjid here. I was hesitant using the word scholar because I'm not sure of the opinions of the 'Ulama and Maraja' so I don't extend the "scholars" to the 'Ulama and Maraja'. And I meant normal shi'ah when I said laymen, and again the ones I've encountered, I don't care what the 'Ammah believe.

والسلام

Posted

The popular view amongst the `amaah is that she (sa) is buried in Baqi, however some renowned scholars of their school hold the opinion that she (sa) was indeed buried in her house. 

Also, a story quoted by Shaykh al-`Amri (Shiite scholar from Medina) indicates that during his youth, the markings of the grave of her holiness (sa) was evident in her house (hence his belief that she was surely buried there). 

Nice work, i've read almost similar research articles in Farsi and Arabic, it seems that the most likely place is the House, as you suggested, although some scholars keep the possibility open for it to be in between the grave of the Prophet (saw) and his pulpit. 

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Posted (edited)
 
On 1/5/2014 at 3:13 AM, Ibn Al-Ja said:

The second view:

The second view is that she is buried in the garden, which is referring to the space between the grave of the Prophet (saawa) and his pulpit. This is backed up by narrations such as that which follows:

حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل - رضي الله عنه - قال: حدثنا علي بن الحسين السعد آبادي، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن بعض أصحابنا، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: ما بين قبري ومنبري روضة من رياض الجنة ومنبري على ترعة من ترع الجنة لان قبر فاطمة صلوات الله عليها بين قبره ومنبره وقبرها روضة من رياض الجنة وإليه ترعة من ترع الجنة

[Al-Saduq narrates saying it was] Narrated to us [by] Muhammad ibn Musa ibn Al-Mutawakkil, he said: [it was] Narrated to us [by] 'Ali ibn Al-Hussain Al-Sa'd Al-Abidi, [who learned] from Ahmad ibn Abi 'Abdillah Al-Barqi, [who learned] from his Father, [who learned] from Ibn Abi 'Umayr, [who learned] from some of our companions, [who learned] from Abi 'Abdillah ('as), he said: The Messenger of Allah (saawa) said: What is between by grave and pulpit is a garden from the gardens of paradise, and my pulpit is upon a canal from the canals of paradise, because the grave of Fatimah ('as) is between its grave and its pulpit, and her grave is the garden from the gardens of paradise, and to it [flow] a canal from the canals of paradise.

[...]

The third view:

The third view is that she was buried in her house, and when the umawis expanded the masjid's boundries, her grave became part of the masjid. This is personally my view, and there are numerous traditions for it. I will quote some of them, including a reliable one. It is narrated in Al-Kafi:

علي بن محمد وغيره، عن سهل بن زياد، عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن قبر فاطمة عليها السلام فقال: دفنت في بيتها فلما زادت بنو أمية في المسجد صارت في المسجد

[Al-Kulayni narrates that it was reported to him from] 'Ali ibn Muhammad and others, [who learned from] from Sahl ibn Ziyad, [who learned] from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Nasr, he said: I asked Al-Ridha ('as) about the grave of Fatima ('as), so he said: She was buried in her house, and when Banu Umayyah expanded the masjid's border, it [was included] in the masjid.

Al-Kafi volume 1 page 461

Grading: Dha'if 'Ala Mashhur (Weak upon fame - ie. this chain is weak but this is a famous narration, the weakness here is Sahl ibn Ziyad Al-Amidi)

Source: Allama Majlisi, Mir'at Al-'Uqul volume 5 page 348

That latter riwayah is not reliable as it is reported through Sahl bin Ziyad who has been criticised and weakened by numerous scholars. In-fact, the former narration has arguably more strength in isnad than this latter narration. However, its matn is strange because Fatimah [a] died after her father .

The meaning of dha`if `alah mashhur: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234981285-quran-2455/#entry2117681

On 1/5/2014 at 3:13 AM, Ibn Al-Ja said:

He reports similarly in 'Uyun Akhbar Al-Ridha ('as):

حدثنا أبي ومحمد بن الحسن بن أحمد الوليد رضي الله عنهما وأحمد بن محمد بن يحيى العطار ومحمد بن علي ماجيلويه ومحمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رضي الله عنهم قالوا: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار وأحمد بن إدريس جميعا سهل بن زياد الآدمي عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر البزنطي قال: سألت أبا الحسن علي بن موسى الرضا عليه السلام عن قبر فاطمة عليها السلام فقال: دفنت في بيتها فلما زادت بنو أمية في المسجد صارت في المسجد

[Al-Saduq narrates that it was] narrated to us [by] my Father, and Muhammad ibn Al-Hasan ibn Ahmad ibn Walid, and Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya Al-'Attar, and Muhammad ibn 'Ali Majilawayh, and Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Mutawakkil, they said: [it] was narrated to us [by] Muhammad ibn Yahya Al-'Attar and Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Idrees collectively [from] Sahl ibn Ziyad Al-Amidi, [who learned] from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Nasr Al-Bazanti, [and] he said: I asked Aba Al-Hasan Al-Ridha ('as) about the grave of Fatimah ('as), so he said: She was buried in her house, and when Banu Umayyah expanded the masjid's border, it [was included] in the masjid.

'Uyun Akhbar Al-Ridha ('as) volume 2 page 278

This is the same riwayah as the one in al-Kafi through different turuq upto Sahl from Ibn Abi Nasr.

 
On 1/5/2014 at 3:13 AM, Ibn Al-Ja said:

Finally it has been reported on a reliable chain in Tahdhib:

عنه عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر قال: سألت أبا الحسن عليه السلام عن قبر فاطمة عليها السلام فقال: دفنت في بيتها فلما زادت بنو أمية في المسجد صارت في المسجد

And from him, [who learned] from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Nasr, he said: I asked Aba Al-Hasan Al-Ridha ('as) about the grave of Fatimah ('as), so he said: She was buried in her house, and when Banu Umayyah expanded the masjid's border, it [was included] in the masjid.

Tahdhib Al-Ahkam volume 3 page 255

Grading: Sahih (authentic/correct)

Source: Allama Majlisi, Miladh Al-Akhyar volume 5 page 481

It should be noted in volume 14 page 368 Shaykh Hurr Al-'Amili made two interesting points. Firstly, the chain above from Tahdhib Al-Ahkam is longer, and the "From him" is Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Yahya.

This is also the same riwayah as the one in al-Kafi.

I think there is some difficulty in Muhammad bin Ahmad reporting from Ibn Abi Nasr (d. 221AH):

1) Muhammad bin Ahmad reports much from Ahmad bin al-Hasan bin `Ali bin Faddal (d. 260AH), `Ubaydi, Ibn Abi 'l-Khattab (d. 262AH) (who reports work(s) of Muhammad bin Ahmad directly), Barqi (d. 274 or 280AH) and others who are the students of the generation of Ibn Abi Nasr.

2) There only about ~10 reports in the Four Books, all in Tahdhibayn, where Muhammad bin Ahmad reports from Ibn Abi Nasr without intermediaries and these might all be mursal.

3) There are many more instances of Muhammad bin Ahmad reporting from Ibn Abi Nasr through an intermediary, and even instances of two intermediaries.

In-light of all of these turuq reporting this riwayah of Ibn Abi Bazanti through Sahl bin Ziyad, there is a significant possibility it seem that Muhammad bin Ahmad - the one about whom it was said " و يعتمد المراسيل" (and he relied on maraaseel) - reported this from Sahl from Ibn Abi Nasr and the intermediary was dropped either originally or at some point in its transmission or by Tusi inadvertently. (There are cases of narrators being dropped in Tahdhib, when they are present in the same riwayat in al-Kafi). So, this riwayah's isnad requires tawaqquf since it is probably missing Sahl before Muhammad bin Ahmad.

On 1/5/2014 at 3:57 PM, Ibn Al-Ja said:

The narration you presented from Kitab Al-Irshad volume 2 page 17:

 

وروى عبد الله بن إبراهيم عن زياد المخارقي قال: لما حضرت الحسن عليه السلام الوفاة استدعى الحسين بن علي عليهما السلام فقال: " يا أخي، إني مفارقك ولاحق بربي عزوجل وقد سقيت السم ورميت بكبدي في الطست، وإني لعارف بمن سقاني السم، ومن أين دهيت، وأنا أخاصمه إلى الله تعالى، فبحقي عليك إن تكلمت في ذلك بشئ، وانتظر ما يحدث الله عز ذكره في، فإذا قضيت فغمضني وغسلني وكفني واحملني على سريري إلى قبر جدي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لاجدد به عهدا، ثم ردني إلى قبر جدتي فاطمة بنت أسد رحمة الله عليها فادفني هناك

And [it was] narrated [by] 'Abdullah ibn Ibrahim [who learned] from Ziyad Al-Makhrizi [who] said: When Al-Hasan ibn 'Ali ('as) was close to death, he summoned Al-Hussain ibn 'Ali ('as) and said: "Oh my brother, I am leaving you and joining my Lord. I have been given poison to drink and vomited out my insides into the basin. And I am aware of the person who poisoned me, and from where I have been made a subject to of this deceitful action. And I will be in opposition to him to Allah the almighty. So by my right upon you, do not say anything about that thing, and wait for what Allah will decide concerning me. So when I have expired, shut my [eyes], and wash me, and enshroud me, and carry me on my bier to the grave of my grandfather, the Messenger of Allah (saawa), so I may renew to him my covenant. Then return me to the grave of my grandmother Fatimah bint Asad, may Allah take mercy upon her, and bury me there.

This khabar is majhool and not from a ma`sum, nor from a contemporary correct me if I am wrong.

On 1/5/2014 at 3:57 PM, Ibn Al-Ja said:

The reason why I don't think this is talking about the grave of Syeda Zahra ('as) is because there's similar hadith in Al-Kafi where Imam Al-Hasan ('as) gives his will to his brother, but differentiates the grave of his mother and Al-Baqi':

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن بكر بن صالح [قال الكليني] وعدة من أصحابنا، عن ابن زياد، عن محمد بن سليمان الديلمي، عن هارون بن الجهم، عن محمد ابن مسلم قال سمعت ابا جفعر عليه السلام يقول: لما حضر الحسن بن علي عليهما السلام الوفاة قال للحسين عليه السلام: يا أخي إني اوصيك بوصية فاحفظها، إذا أنا مت فهيئني ثم وجهني إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لاحدث به عهدا ثم اصرفني إلى امي عليها السلام ثم ردني فادفني بالبقيع

[Al-Kulayni reports a narration from]: 'Ali ibn Ibrahim [who learned] from his father [who learned] from Bakr ibn Salih, [Al-Kulayni [also] said]: And from a group of our companions [who learned] from Muhammad ibn Sulayman Al-Daylami [who learned] from Harun ibn Al-Jahm [who learned] from Muhammad ibn Muslim, he said: I heard Abu Ja'far (Al-Baqir ('as)) [and] he [was] saying: When Al-Hasan ibn 'Ali ('as) was close to death, he said to Al-Hussain ibn 'Ali ('as): Oh my brother, I command you with a will [of mine] so guard it; when I die, prepare me (ie. for death), then direct me to the Messenger of Allah (saawa), so I may renew with him my pact. Then take me to my mother ('as), then return me and bury me in Al-Baqi'.

Al-Kafi volume 1 page 300

Then both narrations go on to talk about how his funeral was disturbed. Getting to the point of my argument, Imam Hasan ('as) differentiated between the two sites in his wording in the second Hadith, saying to return and bury his body to Al-Baqi' after seeing his mother, if they were in the same place (meaning Syeda Zahra ('as)'s body was in Jannat Al-Baqi'), why would there be a need to make a difference in where his mother was and Al-Baqi', and saying to return him to Al-Baqi' after seeing his mother.

Nice catch. It is also weak and doesn't distinguish between the second and third views.

So, it seems there are no reliable reports on this topic if this is the summation of the relevant reports on this topic. You have two opposing akhbar al-wahid which say contrary things, and a third which rules out the first position which has no support in the akhbar you say.

One wonders whether Saduq had access to more riwayat for him to affirm a particular position.

Edited by Hameedeh
To remove strikethrough fonts.
  • Advanced Member
Posted

حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل - رضي الله عنه - قال: حدثنا علي بن الحسين السعد آبادي، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن بعض أصحابنا، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: {قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: ما بين قبري ومنبري روضة من رياض الجنة ومنبري على ترعة من ترع الجنة}. لان قبر فاطمة صلوات الله عليها بين قبره ومنبره وقبرها روضة من رياض الجنة وإليه ترعة من ترع الجنة


OR

 


حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل - رضي الله عنه - قال: حدثنا علي بن الحسين السعد آبادي، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن بعض أصحابنا، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: ما بين قبري ومنبري روضة من رياض الجنة ومنبري على ترعة من ترع الجنة لان قبر فاطمة صلوات الله عليها بين قبره ومنبره وقبرها روضة من رياض الجنة وإليه ترعة من ترع الجنة


 

the explanation did not come from Rasul Allah!, It is either a) Imam Sadiq said it OR b) a group of our companions said it. OR c) Muhamad bin Musa bin Mutawakil OR d) the author of the book.

  • Basic Members
Posted

al-Himyari said:

 

أحمد بن محمد بن نصر البزنطي قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله أي مكان دفنت؟ فقال: سأل رجل جعفراً عليه السلام عن هذه المسألة -  وعيسى بن موسى حاضر -  فقال له عيسى: دفنت في البقيع. فقال الرجل: ما تقول؟ فقال: قد قال لك. فقلت له: أصلحك الله، ما أنا وعيسى بن موسى؟ أخبرني عن آبائك! فقال: دفنت في بيتها

 

al-Himyari r.a, "Qurb al-İsnad", page 367, hadith 1314

  • 2 months later...
  • Advanced Member
Posted

(salam)

Although we aren't sure about the place of her grave, we are sure about many things:

Surely it can not be clear by scholarly discussions. Allah doesn't will this.

Surely She was very dissatisfied with many people...

Surely She was oppressed by them. Her hidden  grave is the sign of this.

Surely...

Surely no matter where the her grave is.

  • Advanced Member
Posted

(salam)

Surely it can not be clear by scholarly discussions. Allah doesn't will this.

 

Surely no matter where the her grave is.

(wasalam)

Sorry to oppose this but can you say why Allah doesn't ? If you answer: because lady Fatima a.s. didn't want that , i want to ask: didn't imam Ali want that too ? (the grave of Imam Ali a.s. was hidden due to his wassiyah until the time of Imam Sadiq a.s. that means about 100 years) 

 

 

About your second point : i think it would be very better if we don't talk that much certain and give a categorical verdict that  there is " no matter" !!

There is a matter if there wasn't A'immah and great Ulama wouldn't have talked about that, this much!

if it is not a matter i want to ask you a question: is that correct in your idea; the most important point is to believe in A'immah so there would be no problem if takfiries demolish the holy shrine of Imam Al-Askari while we know that he is one of the 12 Imams and must be obeyed and followed ??

 

And do you mean by your post, that it is the same for you (i.e. A SHIA) if we knew where her grave is or don't knew ?! 

 

(By the way  "where the her grave is."  is wrong, there is no need to "the" )

 

(wasalam)

  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)

Where Is The Grave Of Syeda Fatima (as)?

Is that important to our deen? Will we be questioned on this?

Being on this site and posting on this thread, is it important to your deen? Will you be questioned on this? Edited by PureEthics
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
Being on this site and posting on this thread,

 

Islam is outside of a particular site and thread. Islam is Islam and stands out on it's own.

I asked a legitimate question to which you had no real answer.

Edited by azizrasul
  • Veteran Member
Posted

Islam is outside of a particular site and thread. Islam is Islam and stands out on it's own.

I asked a legitimate question to which you had no real answer.

Huh? You don't make any sense what so ever. This is an Islamic site and that fact is your posts prove it as they speak about Islam. So before you go around making stupid statements like above, first subject yourself to that.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
So before you go around making stupid statements like above, first subject yourself to that.

 

Can you explain exactly what was stupid? The fact that we are on an Islamic site makes no difference to my pointy which I will repeat, why is important to know the whereabouts of the grave of fatima (May Allaah be pleased with her)?

 

You seem, in my opinion, to be avoiding answering the question but have decided to go on a rant instead. Have I hit a raw nerve? It seems I have made a legitimate point and you have nothing positive to say about it.
 

  • Veteran Member
Posted

Can you explain exactly what was stupid? The fact that we are on an Islamic site makes no difference to my pointy which I will repeat, why is important to know the whereabouts of the grave of fatima (May Allaah be pleased with her)?

You seem, in my opinion, to be avoiding answering the question but have decided to go on a rant instead. Have I hit a raw nerve? It seems I have made a legitimate point and you have nothing positive to say about it.

Let me tell you why it's important to know her grave. Because she is the daughter of Muhammad A.S and do you not think her father would have wanted to visit her grave? We want to know so we go and give our respects and mourn, just a we go to Muhammad A.S grave why? Because we want to feel that close connection. Why do you think millions go and visit the nabi in medina? For fun? No because it is the Sunnah of Muhammad to visit the loved ones of Allah a.s and it was Muhammad who always visited the graves of his companions and family.

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

We visit the grave of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and we know the whereabouts of his grave. We can easily pray for the loved ones wherever we are. Our salaams to Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) are automatically sent wherever we may happen to be. After all not everyone can visit specific graves.

 

We can make dua for all other Muslims wherever we are and wherever they happen to be buried. Just because there is no grave to attend does not change this. Hence my question why is it so important to have the location of Fatima's (May Allaah be pleased with her) grave, isn't it enough to make dua for her. Why do people like you hijack the deen by laying so much importance to issues which effectively take people away from the important aspects of the deen.

 

I for one I'm glad that we don't know the position of the grave as I'm sure some Muslims would commit shirk. Making dua is much better and visiting the graves we already have is enough.

 

Don't waste your time on fruitless issues and encourage others to do the same. I'm sure if Allaah, subhana-ta'la, wanted the Muslims to know the position of Fatima's (May Allaah be pleased with her) grave, He would have done so. We don't know where the graves of many of the prophets are, does this mean we cannot make dua for them?

 

You will not be questioned in the hereafter regarding whether you succeeded or failed to find the grave of the blessed daughter of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

Edited by azizrasul
  • 11 years later...
  • Moderators
Posted
On 1/5/2014 at 4:25 PM, Cake said:

That latter riwayah is not reliable as it is reported through Sahl bin Ziyad who has been criticised and weakened by numerous scholars. In-fact, the former narration has arguably more strength in isnad than this latter narration. However, its matn is strange because Fatimah [a] died after her father .

The meaning of dha`if `alah mashhur: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234981285-quran-2455/#entry2117681

Salam

Just a broader point but 11 years on I think this criticism (and the other instances of weakening the reports based on Sahl) has fallen flat based on your own unpublished research into Sahl collecting all his reports and not finding anything problematic. There's a larger point about the folly of Sunni rijal when applied to Shii texts though that remains beyond the scope of what was discussed here, but I'll just point this out for anyone who happens across this thread in the future and experiences doubt in the words of the imams based on what you've said. JazakumAllah.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
13 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

Salam

Just a broader point but 11 years on I think this criticism (and the other instances of weakening the reports based on Sahl) has fallen flat based on your own unpublished research into Sahl collecting all his reports and not finding anything problematic. There's a larger point about the folly of Sunni rijal when applied to Shii texts though that remains beyond the scope of what was discussed here, but I'll just point this out for anyone who happens across this thread in the future and experiences doubt in the words of the imams based on what you've said. JazakumAllah.

Salam

I myself, according to analysis of the narrations and the majority of my teachers and senior mentors and most of the senior scholars I know in Iran Iraq India, all of the view that it’s the second opinion, the garden

I know a lot of the Indo Pakistani community that was involved with the Al Baqi Day protest swears up and down. It’s in the cemetery, but they never offer proof 

wallahu Alam 

  • Moderators
Posted
5 hours ago, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

I myself, according to analysis of the narrations and the majority of my teachers and senior mentors and most of the senior scholars I know in Iran Iraq India, all of the view that it’s the second opinion, the garden

I know a lot of the Indo Pakistani community that was involved with the Al Baqi Day protest swears up and down. It’s in the cemetery, but they never offer proof 

wallahu Alam 

ٌWhile I think it is beyond indisputable that it isn't in al-Baqi' and the Imams allowed this narrative to promote confusion (assisted by the fact that al-Hasan (عليه السلام) shows that his mother's grave cannot be in al-Baqi'), the view of the classical scholars and the number of transmissions from al-Ridha (عليه السلام) stating that it's in her house seems hard to ignore. Some more on this point:

أحمد بن محمد بن نصر البزنطي قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله أي مكان دفنت؟ فقال: سأل رجل جعفراً عليه السلام عن هذه المسألة -  وعيسى بن موسى حاضر -  فقال له عيسى: دفنت في البقيع. فقال الرجل: ما تقول؟ فقال: قد قال لك. فقلت له: أصلحك الله، ما أنا وعيسى بن موسى؟ أخبرني عن آبائك! فقال: دفنت في بيتها

Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Nasr al-Bazanti said, "I asked al-Ridha (عليه السلام) about the grave of Fatima bt. Rasul Allah (saww); what place is she buried in?" He answered. "A man hasked Ja'far (عليه السلام) about this matter while Isa b. Musa was present. Isa said to him, 'She is buried in al-Baqi'.' The man said [to the Imam (as)], 'What do You (عليه السلام) say?' He (عليه السلام) answered, 'He gave you an answer already.' So I said to Him (عليه السلام), 'May God preserve you, what do I and Isa b. Musa have to do with one another? Inform me from your forefathers [where she is]!' He (عليه السلام) said, 'She is buried in her house.'"

(Qurb al-Isnad - Abu Ja'far al-Himyari)

(The use of benedictory prayers in the translation of the following narration from a Sunni source will reflect the original Arabic.)

حدثنا أبو غسان، عن عبد الله بن إبراهيم بن عبيد الله، أن جعفر بن محمد كان يقول: قبرت فاطمة رضي الله عنها في بيتها الذي أدخله عمر بن عبد العزيز في المسجد.

فهذا ما حدثني به أبو غسان في قبر فاطمة، ووجدت كتابا كتب عنه يذكر فيه أن عبد العزيز بن عمران كان يقول: إنها دفنت في بيتها، وصنع بها ما صنع برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، إنها دفنت في موضع فراشها، ويحتج بأنها دفنت ليلا، ولا يعلم بها كثير من الناس
بين قبرها وبين خوخة نبيه، أظن الطريق سبعة أذرع بالسقاية.

Abu Ghassan narrated to us, from Abdullah b. Ibrahim that Ja'far b. Muhammad would say, "Fatima (رضي الله عنه) was buried in her house, which Umar b. Abdul Aziz incorporated into the Masjid."

This is what Abu Ghassan narrated to me concerning the grave of Fatima. I found a book written on this topic, which mentioned inside that Abdul Aziz b. Imran would say, "She is buried in her house and what happened to the Messenger of Allah (saww) happened to her. She is buried under where her bed was. This is supported by that she was buried at night, and people do not know much about her. Between her grave and the Khawkha (a type of door) of Nubayh, I estimate the path is about seven cubits in Siqayah(?)."

(Tarikh Madinah v. 1 - Umar b. Shubba al-Numayri al-Basri)

Note something very similar found in Ibn Asakir (also a Sunni source):

قال فائد : وأخبرني مولاي ومن شئت من أهلي ممن مضى منهم : أن قبر فاطمة مواجه الخوخة التي في دار نبيه (١) ابن وهب [و] طريق الناس بين قبر فاطمة وبين خوخة نبيه. قال : أظن الطريق : سبع أذرع.

Fa'id said, "My master informed me as well as whoever you may wish from my people from whoever passed among them that the grave of Fatima faces the Khawkha of Nubayh b. Wahb and the path of the people is between the grave of Fatima and the Khawkha of Nubayh." He added, "I estimate the path is seven cubits."

(Tarikh Madinat Dimishq v. 13)

It seems to be a tradition among the Medinians, aside from just the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), that she was buried in her home. When one sees these traditions and the narrations from the Imams, as well as the Qudama who held this view, it is hard to conclude she is buried other than in her home. Wallahu A'lam.

May Allah curse the killers of Fatima (عليه السلام) until she is pleased.

  • Advanced Member
Posted
8 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

While I think it is beyond indisputable that it isn't in al-Baqi' and the Imams allowed this narrative to promote confusion (assisted by the fact that al-Hasan (عليه السلام) shows that his mother's grave cannot be in al-Baqi'), the view of the classical scholars and the number of transmissions from al-Ridha (عليه السلام) stating that it's in her house seems hard to ignore. Some more on this point:

 

14 hours ago, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

I myself, according to analysis of the narrations and the majority of my teachers and senior mentors and most of the senior scholars I know in Iran Iraq India, all of the view that it’s the second opinion, the garden

I know a lot of the Indo Pakistani community that was involved with the Al Baqi Day protest swears up and down. It’s in the cemetery, but they never offer proof 

wallahu Alam 

Salam

6- The Shrine of Hazrat Masoumeh (sa), the place of manifestation of the shrine of Hazrat Zahra (sa),

the great Marja, the late Ayatollah Al-Uzmi Najafi Mar'ashi (رضي الله عنه), said: My father, the late Ayatollah Allama Seyyed Mahmoud Mar'ashi (رضي الله عنه), who has lived in Najaf Ashraf, was very interested in finding a way to find the place of the honorable grave of his grandmother Hazrat Zahra (sa). For this purpose, he has chosen a tried-and-tested prayer (meaning one of the prayers whose answer has been experienced, which, when repeated with the presence of the heart, sincerity, and other conditions, leads to achieving the goal), and he has continued to do so for forty nights, so that he might learn of a way to the place of the honorable shrine of Hazrat Zahra ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). On the fortieth night, after performing the Khatm and much supplication, he went to bed. In his sleep, he reached the presence of Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام).) (or Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).). The Imam said to him: "Cling to the noble robe of the Ahl al-Bayt (s.a.)." He assumed that the Imam ((عليه السلام).) meant Hazrat Zahra (s.sa.) by this sentence, and said: "Yes, I will sacrifice myself for you. I also took the Khatm to know the exact location of the noble grave of that lady and to visit it." The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said: "I mean the noble grave of Hazrat Masoumeh (s.a.) in Qom." Then he added: For some reason, Allah has willed that the grave of Hazrat Zahra (عليه السلام) should be hidden from everyone forever, therefore He has made the grave of Hazrat Masoumeh (SA) the manifestation of the noble grave of Hazrat Zahra (SA). If the grave of Hazrat was to be open, Allah has made the same splendor and greatness of the shrine of Hazrat Zahra (Sa) for the grave of Hazrat Masoumeh (SA). When the late Ayatollah Seyyed Mahmoud Mara'shi woke up, he decided to migrate to Qom with the intention of visiting Hazrat Masoumeh (SA). He immediately left Najaf Ashraf with all his family members for Qom and began to visit the holy shrine of Hazrat Masoumeh (SA).

https://www.hawzahnews.com/news/455667/جایگزین-قبر-حضرت-زهرا-س-کجاست

  • Advanced Member
  • Advanced Member
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

Ayatollah Mar’ashi Najafi, in his will, said: “After my death, place my body in front of the holy tomb of Lady Masoumeh, tie one end of my turban to the shrine and the other end to my coffin, and at that moment, recite the tragedy of my master, Imam Hussain, and his family.”

 

The Secret of the Scholars’ Deep Affection for Lady Masoumah (عليه السلام)

In Quranic culture, unlike what some other religions believe, when role models are introduced, alongside great men like Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (sa), exemplary women are also presented to the community and believers. In our religious sources, in addition to Lady Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام) and Lady Maryam (عليه السلام) being introduced as role models, the wife of Pharaoh is also introduced as a model woman. Despite living in the worst environment, Pharaoh’s palace, she displayed the most magnificent faith, steadfastness, and sacrifice. The Quran says about her: “And God sets forth an example for those who believe: the wife of Pharaoh, when she said, ‘My Lord, build for me near You a house in Paradise, and save me from Pharaoh and his deeds, and save me from the wrongdoing people!’”

The significant point in this verse is that the wife of Pharaoh, like Mary (عليه السلام), is not just a role model for women but for the whole society. This shows that Islam gives such value to women that they are allowed to become role models in spiritual progress and moral virtues, even for men. Throughout its history, Islam has provided numerous examples in this regard.

One of the most remarkable examples that has attracted the serious attention of scholars, mystics, philosophers, and great Shia jurists is the noble presence of Lady Fatima Masoumeh (عليه السلام). Her moral and spiritual characteristics, as well as her exalted status, are so significant that not only did great Islamic jurists and scholars praise her, but the Infallible Imams (عليه السلام) also extolled her virtues.

According to a narration reported by Allama Majlisi from Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (عليه السلام), which we mentioned earlier, Shia believers will enter Paradise through the intercession of Lady Masoumah (عليه السلام). The promise of Paradise for those who visit her indicates that she is a means of divine mercy not only in this world but also in the Hereafter. Those who love and show devotion to her will benefit from her intercession.

Quote

The Infallible Imams have repeatedly encouraged the followers of Ahl Al Bayt to visit this noble lady and seek her intercession. This act of visitation is not only a religious practice but also a symbol of respect and love for the high status of Lady Masoumah, who will intercede for them in the Hereafter.

Imam Ali al-Ridha (عليه السلام) said: “Whoever visits Lady Masoumeh in Qom is like one who has visited me.” This saying beautifully highlights her esteemed position in the eyes of God and the Ah Al Bayt. Additionally, it is narrated from Imam Muhammad al-Jawad (عليه السلام) that he said:  مَنْ زارَ عَمَّتی بِقُمْ فَلَهُ الجَنَّهُ»  “Whoever visits my aunt in Qom, Paradise is his.”

Among the scholars and religious leaders, we have witnessed extraordinary actions and words of reverence toward this great lady, which invite us to reflect deeply on her grandeur and majesty.

Mulla Sadra, the great Islamic philosopher and founder of Transcendent Philosophy, who wrote his important work Asfar al-Arba’a in the village of Kahak near Qom, said: “Whenever a philosophical doubt arose in my mind, I would go to the tomb of Lady Masoumah (عليه السلام) in Qom and seek her assistance, and my philosophical doubt would be resolved.”[2]

Allama Tabatabai, the great philosopher and mystic, would visit the sacred shrine of Lady Masoumah (عليه السلام) before breaking his fast during Ramadan and would break his fast by kissing the shrine.[3]

Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Reza Golpayegani was so devoted to her that whenever he was ill and unable to visit her shrine, he would weep.

Ayatollah Mar’ashi Najafi, in his will, said: “After my death, place my body in front of the holy tomb of Lady Masoumeh, tie one end of my turban to the shrine and the other end to my coffin, and at that moment, recite the tragedy of my master, Imam Hussain, and his family.”

All these examples demonstrate the greatness of this noble lady, whose outstanding qualities such as knowledge, piety, sacrifice, and defense of the Imamate and guardianship have made her an unparalleled role model for all Muslims across the world.

https://ijtihadnet.com/special-guidance-in-the-light-of-the-blessings-of-lady-fatima-masoumah-as/

Some miracles occurred at holy shrine of Fatima Masumeh

Quote

3. The resolution of the difficulties of Ayatollah Najafi by Lady Fatima Masouma ((عليه السلام).):

The late Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Shahab al-Din Mar'ashi Najafi narrates, "When I was young, I faced some difficult times, the most difficult of which was when I wanted to get my daughter married and did not have the money or possessions for her trousseau.

With sadness in my heart I went to the shrine of Lady Fatima Masouma ((عليه السلام).) and with tears in my eyes, I asked reproachfully, Oh my Lady and Mistress, why do you not care about my life? How can I get my daughter married with these empty hands?

After pleading in this manner, I returned home. I dozed off and in my dream I heard someone knocking at my door. I opened it, there stood a person who said: 'The lady is seeking you' I quickly went to the shrine.

When I entered the courtyard, I saw a number of ladies cleaning the golden porch. I asked them why they were cleaning so throughly, they replied that the lady was coming soon. After a little time, lady Fatima Masouma ((عليه السلام).) appeared. Her appearance and manner, was just like my grandmother, Lady Fatima Zahra ((عليه السلام).), whom I had previously seen in my dreams three times.

I went closer to my aunt, Lady Fatima Masouma ((عليه السلام).) and Kissed her hand. She said to me: "Oh Shahab! When have we not thought of you, that you now expect harshness from us and are complaining. You have been under our eyes since the time you have arrived in Qum and we have been granting you your desires.

When I woke from my sleep. I understood that I had been impolite in my approache to Lady Fatima Masuma (A) and so I immediately went to her shrine to apologize and ask for her forgiveness. Soon after that, my problems were solved and my life became easier.4

 

https://en.abna24.com/news/1457661/Some-miracles-occurred-at-holy-shrine-of-Fatima-Masumeh

https://erfan.ir/english/67573.html

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Holy_Shrine_of_Lady_Fatima_al-Ma'suma_(a)

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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