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Replying To Shirk-Like Statements

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Well done for taking the time to transcribe all that, but unfortunately the level of argumentation is not very good, as usual in Ammar Nakshawani lectures.

 

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Firstly, when we visit our Imams' graves, we do not have the intention to worship those graves, but we are going there to honor great personalities who have layed our foundation and heritage.

The word worship would need to be defined first of all. It is useless to refute an accusation by saying that since we don't accept that this is what we do, then we can't be doing it. Certainly, what goes on at those shrines would fall under certain definitions of worship in the English language. However it is not an easy word to define, which is why some time should be spent on this, rather than just brushing it off.

 

Additionally, it is quite clear that many people go to the shrine in order to seek blessings or to have their wishes fulfilled, so it is being dishonest to state that this is simply about going to honour great personalities.

 

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Arguably one if the most used verses by the Wahabi school to attack those who honor graves is Surah 9,Verse 84.

Really? I can't say I've ever seen this verse used much. However, even if it is, it is so easily refuted that I don't think it merits having such a large portion of the lecture devoted to it. Better to just refute it quickly and move on to the better arguments. Sadly, it's a common tactic to knock down weak arguments (whether real or imagined), while leaving the stronger ones, and giving the impression of winning the debate.

 

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A problem within modern Shia is that we have neglected the Quran, but other schools are very familiar with it. And Wallah it is a shame, because we call ourselves followers of Ahlulbayt, but Ahlulbayt were always stressing about the Quran.

I agree with him on this.

 

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Allah told the Prophet that standing beside a grave is forbidden. Which incident was this?

Wahhabis don't believe standing besides graves are forbidden, so I don't understand why he spent so long on this. Anyway, here is some stuff on visiting graves from a Salafi website:

 

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Visiting graves is mustahabb for men, because according to the hadeeth of Buraydah ibn al-Husayb, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I used to forbid you to visit graves, but now visit them.” (Narrated by Muslim, 977). According to another report, “… for they will remind you of the Hereafter.” (Narrated by Ahmad, 1240; Ibn Maajah, 1569; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh ibn Maajah). 

When visiting the graves it is mustahabb to greet the occupants of the graves with salaam and to make du’aa’ for them saying the words that the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to teach his companions.

 

...

 

If a person says “al-salaamu ‘alayum” when visiting graves, and says, “Al-salaamu ‘alayka ya Rasool-Allaah” when visiting the grave of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), this is not considered to be shirk, because it is not a prayer to the dead or seeking their help.

http://islamqa.info/en/34561

 

So we can see here that the issue Wahhabis have with what happens at graves is to do with praying to the person inside the grave or seeking their help. Amazingly, Ammar Nakshawani doesn't address this in his whole lecture (unless we count his false statement that nobody does this)! It really makes me wonder what kind of academic training he received that he thinks this is an acceptable way to 'disect' an opponent's position.

 

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2 - Surah 17 Verse 18 says "The mosques are for Allah, do not call on anyone besides Allah" Us Shia say we agree with this,100%. Now the Wahabi's will say how do you agree with this when you do it? This was revealed to the Jews and Christians who started putting there Saints besides God,and they started praying to thoss Saints instead of Allah. Now this never happens in a Shia Mosque, we do not pray to the Imams, but we pray to God. We are not calling upon there names in Salat or Dua, we are not saying Ya Ali grant us Paradise like what the Christians say to there Saints, when we say Ya Ali we are saying "O Ali" we are not saying this in the meaning of Ali is God or calling him instead of Allah to grant us Paradise. When we say Ya Ali we are remembering if what oppression he suffered etc...

Ammar Nakshawani in taqiyya mode again, along the lines of when he claimed that no marja allows Shias to beat themselves with chains or hit themselves with swords, etc.

 

Everyone knows many Shias make duas to the Imams, whether at their graves or not. Ironically, by agreeing to the meaning of the verse he has just massively shot himself in the foot. I mean, he should have at least tried to play the 'intercession' card, and how Shias only appear to be praying to them, but in reality are praying to Allah, etc. That would still be dishonest, but at least you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot. Plenty of Shias openly, and with no sense of doing anything wrong, say 'Ya Ali, grant me x, y, z'. He knows it just as well as everyone else. I can only imagine there were a few confused people in the room at this point.

 

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3 - Where in the Quran does Allah not condemn people who venerate graves, but in fact praises them. The people of Kahf (Cave).

I think he's reading a little too much into the story here.

And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them. [Qur'an 18:22]

I don't see any praise for those who 'venerate' graves. The most you could argue here is that it is allowed, or even perhaps praised, to built a masjod over a grave, based on this verse.

 

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4 - Was there a time in Mecca where the Prophet told people to stop going to graves?

Irrelevant since I doubt even the dumbest blood-crazed Wahhabi on the planet says it is not permitted to visit graves. Once again, the issue is what people do at the graves, which Nakshawani has not even attempted to address here.

 

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6 - Fatima (as) every Thursday would go and visit her Uncle Hamza. When we are asking Allah to give us something we usually start with "Allahuma ini asalluka wa itawajahu ilaik" We ask Allah but through Ahlulbayt, they are the Wasilla. Ali (as) used to have a servant called Habal Araan. Habal Arran narrates that he and Ali used to the Jabana in Kufa (Jabana is a graveyard in Kufa). So Ali was there just standing there and oraying for hours. So he told Ali that shouldn't they go home by now? And than he said "Or we can stay but lets sit on my cloak" So Ali replied "No we will disturb the believers" Habal said "Which believers?",Ali replied "O Hala if you can see what I see..." So when somebody is dead, his soul is still alive. The Quran says that those who died for Allah are still alive.

Ok? Again, nobody has a problem with visiting or sending salams.

 

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7 - The Prophet built Jannat Al Baqi so the graves of Muslim personalities were honored. Not only Shia Imams are in Jannat Al Baqi, Imam Malik for instance is buried there. The Prophet built the place so great personalities in Islam are honored, when I stand by Imam Al Hasan (as) I want to have Imam al Hasan's patience for Allah! When I go next to Imam Zain Zainul Abideen so I can have Zainul Abideen's sacrifice to sacrfice for Allah! And so on... my Ziyara Dua proves I don't worship him. In all our Imam Dua's it says "Ash'hadu anaka aqamta al salat, wa atayt, wa amarta bill ma'ruf, wa nahaita 3an al munkar, WA ATA3TA Allah! Hata Atak Al Yaqin" I swear you established Salat, you gave Zakat, you enjoyed the good, you forbid the evil, AND YOU OBEYED Allah" How am I doing Shirk when I am saying the man buried there OBEYED Allah!

Again, no attempt to address the more controversial things people ask for, or do, at graves. He really seems fond of strawman arguments. Anyway, he seems to be under the impression that you can only worship someone who you believe is equal to God, which isn't true, even if some people would like it to be.

 

To be honest, I think this lecture was exceptionally weak, even by Nakshawani standards. In future he should make a better attempt to address the substance of the argument he is opposing, and not waste time on strawman arguments or easily refuted weak arguments.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Well done for taking the time to transcribe all that, but unfortunately the level of argumentation is not very good, as usual in Ammar Nakshawani lectures.

 

 

The word worship would need to be defined first of all. It is useless to refute an accusation by saying that since we don't accept that this is what we do, then we can't be doing it. Certainly, what goes on at those shrines would fall under certain definitions of worship in the English language. However it is not an easy word to define, which is why some time should be spent on this, rather than just brushing it off.

 

Additionally, it is quite clear that many people go to the shrine in order to seek blessings or to have their wishes fulfilled, so it is being dishonest to state that this is simply about going to honour great personalities.

Who said that is all we do? Ofcourse many people try to seek blessing, but in the name of Allah. Like the story of the Prophet's shirt below, Abdullah ibn Abdullah is not worshipping the shirt, otherwise the Prophet would not give him the shirt. Same thing happens in Karbala, people hang on and kiss the flags etc..

 

 

Really? I can't say I've ever seen this verse used much. However, even if it is, it is so easily refuted that I don't think it merits having such a large portion of the lecture devoted to it. Better to just refute it quickly and move on to the better arguments. Sadly, it's a common tactic to knock down weak arguments (whether real or imagined), while leaving the stronger ones, and giving the impression of winning the debate.

I agree with this.

 

 

 

I agree with him on this.

 

 

 

Wahhabis don't believe standing besides graves are forbidden, so I don't understand why he spent so long on this. Anyway, here is some stuff on visiting graves from a Salafi website:

 

 

http://islamqa.info/en/34561

Well obviously anyone can stand by a grave and do nothing. But about when it comes to doing Dua's for a long time on that grave?

 

So we can see here that the issue Wahhabis have with what happens at graves is to do with praying to the person inside the grave or seeking their help. Amazingly, Ammar Nakshawani doesn't address this in his whole lecture (unless we count his false statement that nobody does this)! It really makes me wonder what kind of academic training he received that he thinks this is an acceptable way to 'disect' an opponent's position.

 

 

 

Ammar Nakshawani in taqiyya mode again, along the lines of when he claimed that no marja allows Shias to beat themselves with chains or hit themselves with swords, etc.

He never said that.

 

Everyone knows many Shias make duas to the Imams, whether at their graves or not. Ironically, by agreeing to the meaning of the verse he has just massively shot himself in the foot. I mean, he should have at least tried to play the 'intercession' card, and how Shias only appear to be praying to them, but in reality are praying to Allah, etc. That would still be dishonest, but at least you don't end up shooting yourself in the foot. Plenty of Shias openly, and with no sense of doing anything wrong, say 'Ya Ali, grant me x, y, z'. He knows it just as well as everyone else. I can only imagine there were a few confused people in the room at this point.

That's what he said lol. He said "Allahuma ini atawajahu illaika bi XYZ" If there is anyone who asks Ali to grant him something than... lol

 

 

 

I think he's reading a little too much into the story here.

 

And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect an edifice over them-- their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a masjid over them. [Qur'an 18:22]

 

I don't see any praise for those who 'venerate' graves. The most you could argue here is that it is allowed, or even perhaps praised, to built a masjod over a grave, based on this verse.

 

 

Irrelevant since I doubt even the dumbest blood-crazed Wahhabi on the planet says it is not permitted to visit graves. Once again, the issue is what people do at the graves, which Nakshawani has not even attempted to address here.

 

He never said that?

 

Ok? Again, nobody has a problem with visiting or sending salams.

 

 

 

Again, no attempt to address the more controversial things people ask for, or do, at graves. He really seems fond of strawman arguments. Anyway, he seems to be under the impression that you can only worship someone who you believe is equal to God, which isn't true, even if some people would like it to be.

 

 

To be honest, I think this lecture was exceptionally weak, even by Nakshawani standards. In future he should make a better attempt to address the substance of the argument he is opposing, and not waste time on strawman arguments or easily refuted weak arguments.

Sorry Haydar, I put my replies in quote style. So please read them from the quote. Big mistake man.

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Who said that is all we do? Ofcourse many people try to seek blessing, but in the name of Allah. Like the story of the Prophet's shirt below, Abdullah ibn Abdullah is not worshipping the shirt, otherwise the Prophet would not give him the shirt. Same thing happens in Karbala, people hang on and kiss the flags etc..

 

 

I didn't say it was all people did, but it is a big part of it, and this is what results in most of the criticism, so this is something that needs to be responded to, and not just brushed off.

 

 

Well obviously anyone can stand by a grave and do nothing. But about when it comes to doing Dua's for a long time on that grave?

From what I can tell, Wahhabis are fine with duas near graves as long as they are addressed to Allah, and not to the person inside the grave. They do however have an issue with raised voices in a masjid, and women visiting graves.

 

The deceased also benefits and is treated kindly by the visitor greeting him with salaams, making du’aa’ for him, praying for forgiveness for him. This applies only to Muslims. Among the du’aa’s that may be recited are: 

Assalaamu ‘alaykum ahl al-diyaar min al-mu’mineen wa’l-Muslimeen, in sha Allaah bikum laahiqoon, as’al Allaaha lana wa lakum al-‘aafiyah (peace be upon you O people of the dwellings, believers and Muslims, In sha Allaah we will join you, I ask Allaah to keep us and you safe and sound).” 

It is permissible to raise the hands when reciting this du’aa’, because of the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went out one night, and I sent Bareerah to follow him and see where he went. She said, ‘He went towards Baqee’ al-Gharqad [the graveyard in Madeenah], and he stood at the bottom of al-Baqee’ and raised his hands, then he went away.’ Bareerah came back to me and told me, and when morning came I asked him about it. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, where did you go out to last night? He said, ‘I was sent to the people of al-Baqee’, to pray for them.’”

 But you should not face the grave when making du’aa’ for them; rather you should face the direction of the Ka’bah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade prayer (salaah) facing graves, and du’aa’ is the heart and soul of salaah, as is well known, and is subject to the same rulings. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Du’aa’ is worship” then he recited the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “And your Lord said: “Invoke Me [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism) and ask Me for anything] I will respond to your (invocation).” [Ghaafir 40:60]

 

islamqa.info/en/14287

 

Anyway, you can read their views here:

 

http://islamqa.info/en/34561

http://islamqa.info/en/14287

http://islamqa.info/en/147407

 

 

He never said that.

 

He certainly did.

 

Watch from 1:02:00 onwards, particularly 1:03:30-1:03:45

"There are some that rip off their shirts and go out publicly and do it [beat their chest]. Is that what the scholars tell them? No."

 

1:03:50-1:04:30

"There are some that use chains and hurt their backs. There are some - how many of you have seen the following sight, of getting a sword and striking your head?The scholars come forward and state: "You are harming yourself. It is haram." But unfortunately what the scholars state sometimes goes in one hear and out of the other."

 

 

 

That's what he said lol. He said "Allahuma ini atawajahu illaika bi XYZ" If there is anyone who asks Ali to grant him something than... lol

I'm glad you think it's funny if ayone would ask Imam `Ali (as) for something, but I can assure you that plenty do, and it's something mainstream, endorsed by most major scholars. The only condition they put on it is that you must realise that Imam `Ali is not independent of Allah, and derives his power from Him. Apart from that, you can make dua to the Imams (and other than them) for whatever needs you have, and they can answer your dua through their God-given powers. You don't need to ask from their their graves either, since they are all-hearing and all-seeing (according to this school of thought).

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I didn't say it was all people did, but it is a big part of it, and this is what results in most of the criticism, so this is something that needs to be responded to, and not just brushed off.

 

 

From what I can tell, Wahhabis are fine with duas near graves as long as they are addressed to Allah, and not to the person inside the grave. They do however have an issue with raised voices in a masjid, and women visiting grave

Ok I am kinda new to ShiaChat so yeah. But I will reply to these 2 quotes and than the rest. Firstly as you pointed out, some misinformed individuals do that. If people are going to judge Shia Muslims on what a few Muslims do, I can judge other sects and call them terrorists.

Secondly, have you not read what Muhamad ibn Abdul Wahab said? Anyone who does a Dua on the Prophet's grave which is not directly to Allah is considered polythiesm and I can get you the statement.

BTW I think we watched a different lecture. I watched the video "Shia view on grave worship" 50 minutes just on that.

Also on the Imams' fulfilling what some people want, I have no problem with that. But through Allah they will do that.

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Ok I am kinda new to ShiaChat so yeah. But I will reply to these 2 quotes and than the rest. Firstly as you pointed out, some misinformed individuals do that. If people are going to judge Shia Muslims on what a few Muslims do, I can judge other sects and call them terrorists.

Many people start off thinking/hoping it is simply some 'misinformed' individuals, but they eventually realise that it's not the case. I used to think like you as well.

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Secondly, have you not read what Muhamad ibn Abdul Wahab said? Anyone who does a Dua on the Prophet's grave which is not directly to Allah is considered polythiesm and I can get you the statement.

Yeah, so like I said, they say that duas need to be addressed directly to Allah. However, they allow salams to the Prophet (pbuh).

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Brother are you Shia?

 

Yes, alhamdulillah.

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The best website that explains IMO is Al-Islam.org the Shia Encyclopedia. And btw it seems we watched a different lecture. I watched "The Shia View On Grave Worship".

I didn't watch the lecture, I'm just responding to your account of it, which I assume is accurate (it certainly sounds like Ammar Nakshawani anyway).

To be honest, the point here isn't even about whether certain practices near graves are ok or not, it's about using proper argumentation. Unfortunately too many Shias don't seem to realise what good argumentation is, and consequently are vulnerable to following charismatic, but shallow, speakers. Or simply falling into speaker/scholar-worship without critically analysing the arguments they make. In order to raise the bar what is needed is more of a willingness to call out bad, or unscholarly, arguments when they are heard, rather than mindlessly cheering for 'our side'.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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I'm glad you think it's funny if ayone would ask Imam `Ali (as) for something, but I can assure you that plenty do, and it's something mainstream, endorsed by most major scholars. The only condition they put on it is that you must realise that Imam `Ali is not independent of Allah, and derives his power from Him. Apart from that, you can make dua to the Imams (and other than them) for whatever needs you have, and they can answer your dua through their God-given powers. You don't need to ask from their their graves either, since they are all-hearing and all-seeing (according to this school of thought).

 

This is what Shaheed Mutahhari writes:

 

In most of the ziyarats (homages) which we recite, we acknowledge the existence of Wilayat and Imamat in this sense, and believe that the Imam has a universal spirit. In the ziyarats which we all recite and which we regard as a part of Shi'ah doctrine we say: "I testify that you see where I stand; you hear what I say and return my salutation." It is to be noted that we address that to an Imam who is dead. From our point of view in this respect there is no difference between a dead and a living Imam. It is not that we say so to a dead Imam only. We say: "Peace be on you, Ali ibn Musa al-Riza. I admit and testify that you hear my salutation and return it."

 

The Sunnis with the exception of the Wahhabis, believe that only the Holy Prophet is endowed with this quality of knowing and hearing. According to them nobody else in the world occupies such a high spiritual status and has such a spiritual comprehension. But we, the Shiites believe that this position is held by all our Imams. This belief is a part of our religious principles and we always acknowledge it.

 

Source

 

My only issue with the common view today is that, from what I have seen anyways, the narrations that have reached us suggest that they can only hear when we are near their graves, or they are informed of our salutations when we are afar. But we don't seem to have any consistent examples of the companions or the Imams themselves actually asking the Imams before them or even asking the Prophet (after their passing away from this world) for any thing, rather the main theme has always been to ask Allah and beseech Him, and if anything, you beseech Him by giving Him the right of the Prophet or the Imams.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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Seriously, Wahhabis are way too extreme with visiting graves; why do you think they blew up thousands of graves at Jannatul Baqee and built high fences around them? Because they want to prevent people as much as they can from entering and that's why they only open it sometimes

Making dua near graves is considered as shirk for them; when really the person who makes dua say for instance near the tomb of the Holy Prophet(sawas), it's not like as if the person is asking the holy Prophet(sawas) for his needs; tawassul is about getting close to the people who are close to Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and one of the ways to get closer to Him is by getting close to the people who are close to Him. Rasullulah(sawas) even mentioned tawassul in some hadith.

Even kissing or rubbing their hands on the graves is an an innovation for them too when it's not; it's an act of respect but they just think its shirk. It's even mentioned in their books that it is mustahab but they refute it, and I know that because when I went to Hajj a few years ago,  some Wahhabi guy was preventing the people from kissing or touching the maqam of Ibrahim(as). LIKE NOT EVEN TOUCHING IT. Just look at it and go. 

Honestly they're messed up people, and what I recently found out about them is that they do not believe that the Earth spins.

Like

I could just bang my head on a wall as to how stupid they are.

 

Fee amanillah

Edited by 3wliya_maryam

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