What Do Christians Say About This?

Grief · December 25, 2013

(bismillah)

(salam)

I am not jumping to any conclusions nor making any false assumptions about any religion.

This is why I have come here to ask our Christian friends (Merry Christmas) what they think about the numerous violent verses within the Bible?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

I mean no ill intentions by this... I am genuinely curious to know your opinions on this topic... Just as many of the Christians have posed this question to us with respect to Quran, I would like to fairly pose this question to the Christians here and ask that you help me understand the beliefs of Christianity better.

Thank you :).

(wasalam)

Edited December 25, 2013 by BuggyLemon

ChristianVisitor · December 25, 2013

Christians do not advocate violence, except in self-defense. In the Old Testament, God allowed the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites because they were to inherit the Promised Land. Also, some Jewish and Christian theorists say that the Canaanites were infected with "demon DNA" and they were corrupted by the fallen ones (the Jinn in Islam). That is why some Canaanites were giants (please read Genesis 6). God wanted to purify the land of these corrupted human beings and the only way was through warfare.

Grief · December 25, 2013

Christians do not advocate violence, except in self-defense. In the Old Testament, God allowed the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites because they were to inherit the Promised Land. Also, some Jewish and Christian theorists say that the Canaanites were infected with "demon DNA" and they were corrupted by the fallen ones (the Jinn in Islam). That is why some Canaanites were giants (please read Genesis 6). God wanted to purify the land of these corrupted human beings and the only way was through warfare.

(bismillah)

I see. This makes sense and is in line with Islamic teachings of the allowance violence only when self-defence is required.

I'm beginning to see so many similarities...

Thank you for your clarification :).

(wasalam)

**Son of Placid** · December 26, 2013

And God killed everything on earth from newborn babies to koala bears.

I think all too often we get upset at the idea of God killing...what He created. This is because we look at it from a human point of view. Of course we do, we're humans. We have a survival instinct and quite frankly we're in no hurry to die. I'm sure God looks at life and death differently than we do. He created life and has all authority over it. He knows what happens next, we don't and that makes us uncomfortable with the idea.

We can be quite certain that if it was cruelty God would not have done it.

When thinking this way we kind of drag God down to our level so we can judge Him by the rules He gave us.

ChristianVisitor · December 26, 2013

And God killed everything on earth from newborn babies to koala bears.

I think all too often we get upset at the idea of God killing...what He created. This is because we look at it from a human point of view. Of course we do, we're humans. We have a survival instinct and quite frankly we're in no hurry to die. I'm sure God looks at life and death differently than we do. He created life and has all authority over it. He knows what happens next, we don't and that makes us uncomfortable with the idea.
We can be quite certain that if it was cruelty God would not have done it.
When thinking this way we kind of drag God down to our level so we can judge Him by the rules He gave us.

What I find strange is how so many "Christians" today find a warring God offensive. If you read Revelation, you can see that Jesus returns from heaven to wage war and destroy those who follow Satan and the Antichrist.

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war" (Rev 19:11, ESV).

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh" (Rev 19:20-21, ESV).

During the last days, the Antichrist will oppose Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and will DEMAND that all human beings worship him and his image (Rev 13:15). This time period will be the worst ever in human history. Persecutions and martyrs will be the highest. Demons from the pit will also roam around the world and cause great fear and destruction (Rev 9:1-11). There will be a revived Roman Empire and the Antichrist will lead this new global order. Thankfully, this is not the end. Satan's goal will be thwarted and Christ will return to regain the earth and establish his millennial kingdom of peace.

Grief · December 26, 2013

And God killed everything on earth from newborn babies to koala bears.

I think all too often we get upset at the idea of God killing...what He created. This is because we look at it from a human point of view. Of course we do, we're humans. We have a survival instinct and quite frankly we're in no hurry to die. I'm sure God looks at life and death differently than we do. He created life and has all authority over it. He knows what happens next, we don't and that makes us uncomfortable with the idea.
We can be quite certain that if it was cruelty God would not have done it.
When thinking this way we kind of drag God down to our level so we can judge Him by the rules He gave us.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Masha'Allah... Exactly the right perspective...

Earthquakes, disabilities, genocide victims... All are examples for us and the victims have something infinitely better waiting for them in the afterlife... We, out of faithlessness, dismiss this fact and call God cruel when in truth, He has given them the priceless gift of death and subsequently paradise with minimal suffering... We, if we truly believed, should be happy for them.

What I find strange is how so many "Christians" today find a warring God offensive. If you read Revelation, you can see that Jesus returns from heaven to wage war and destroy those who follow Satan and the Antichrist.

"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war" (Rev 19:11, ESV).

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh" (Rev 19:20-21, ESV).

During the last days, the Antichrist will oppose Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and will DEMAND that all human beings worship him and his image (Rev 13:15). This time period will be the worst ever in human history. Persecutions and martyrs will be the highest. Demons from the pit will also roam around the world and cause great fear and destruction (Rev 9:1-11). There will be a revived Roman Empire and the Antichrist will lead this new global order. Thankfully, this is not the end. Satan's goal will be thwarted and Christ will return to regain the earth and establish his millennial kingdom of peace.

Insha'Allah :').

Adrikni ya Mahdi (as) wa Jesus (as)...

(wasalam)

Edited December 26, 2013 by BuggyLemon

**placid** · December 26, 2013

Hi Lemon,

Thank you for your good comments to Christians, to your input on Christmas (even Christmas colors), --- and your openness on these subjects.

Quote from Post 1,

I mean no ill intentions by this... I am genuinely curious to know your opinions on this topic... Just as many of the Christians have posed this question to us with respect to Quran, I would like to fairly pose this question to the Christians here and ask that you help me understand the beliefs of Christianity better.

Response to the link: --- Someone, or many, had to read the whole Bible to come up with these verses, --- many of which are distorted and misleading comments, some of which I will comment on later. --- Of these 1317, 113 are on the NT, plus 50 on the Book of Revelation, which looks both back and ahead.

When you ask Christians to comment on the Bible, they could just comment on the NT, because Christianity came by Prophecy in the OT, --- then by fulfillment in the NT. --- In the Book of Hebrews, it explains to Jews and Gentiles what happened to the old laws, --- except for the Ten Commandments, the ‘code of ethics,’ or “criterion of right and wrong,” as it is called in the Quran. .

This comes from the Prophecy in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is fulfilled in Hebrews 8:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

--- (So, in the days of this being written in the first century, the Jewish system of laws was being replaced by the conversion of Jews to Follow Christ, and receive the Holy Spirit in their minds and hearts.)

--- There are many who call themselves Christians, who know nothing about a Spiritual life because they have never repented of sin and allowed the Holy Spirit to come in and change their lives.

Surah 42:52 says that Muhammad received a Spirit from God who revealed what Faith was, and gave him enlightenment to the former Scriptures. --- And, as I said, I saw this same Holy Spirit in the life and teaching of Ali. --- However, Muslims have not pursued God as Muhammad did, --- so they do not have the inner guidance, or the outer example of God’s Spirit in their lives, as Ali demonstrated.

Many believing Christians are not very vocal about their Faith, as it is often rejected, --- but many pray for others, and give generously to support the building of schools, hospitals and orphanages through Churches and Missionaries in other countries.

--- So, a few comments later to show what lengths critical people go to, to ridicule our Faith and Worship.

Placid

**Son of Placid** · December 26, 2013

Hi Christian Visitor.

Welcome to the site. It's always nice to see another Christian on board.

Grief · December 26, 2013

--- So, a few comments later to show what lengths critical people go to, to ridicule our Faith and Worship.

(bismillah)

Yes, sadly I really know how it feels to have one-sided, cherry-picked, false propaganda about your beliefs shoved in your face with no understanding of the texts by the offending party whatsoever. That is why I made this post, to clarify what it all meant, and I believe you answered my question adequately. Thank you for your post and clarification of the distinction between the NT and others... You have been teaching me quite a bit lately ^_^...

(wasalam)

PeaceLoving · December 26, 2013

It's always nice to see another Christian on board.

Hey, there are 3 billion of you guys around !

CLynn · December 26, 2013

Hey, there are 3 billion of you guys around !

hehehe - that gave me a chuckle today. :)

**placid** · December 27, 2013

Hi Lemon,

In response to your good understanding in Post 9:

I know you do not share the critical attitude contained in these lists, but it is okay to question Christians on what they do believe.

I could easily ignore this as somebody who spent a lot of time gathering over 1300 verses to comment on. --- Of course, I didn’t read them all, but I will comment on a few, so bear with me, and see if you agree with his comments:

First of all, I don’t agree with Chuck Norris, who is on TV I believe, as a ‘Texas Ranger,’ --- He is a master of the ‘Marshal arts,’ so tries to promote good and right as a ‘peace keeper.’

However, his statement that “Jesus was a God of war,”.--- is wrong.

Jesus was not God, but was CALLED the Son of God in the Gospels to fulfill the role of the perfect Sacrifice for sin, and is later referred to as the ‘Servant of God.’ --- He had to rise from the dead to show that there is life after death for believers and that His Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom,

--- He was a Man of Peace, --- He is called ‘The Prince of Peace.’

In the Garden when Peter used a sword and cut the ear off the servant of the High Priest, Jesus said, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” Matthew 26:52. --- (And Luke records that Jesus healed the ear.)

And when Jesus was questioned by Pilate about His kingdom in John 18:

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” --- (The Spiritual Kingdom.)

Now I want to comment on a few statements:

(After having said that there was wisdom in the proverbs, I noticed these first two.

812 Beating your children will make them wise. 29:15

The Scripture says, 15 “The rod (discipline) and rebuke give wisdom,
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.”

17 “Correct your son, and he will give you rest;
Yes, he will give delight to your soul.”

813 Beat your servants (slaves), as though they were your children. 29:19

The Scripture says, 18 “Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint;
But happy is he who keeps the law.”.

¹⁹ “A servant will not be corrected by mere words;
For though he understands, he will not respond.

(The nature of servants is to listen, understand, and obey)

--- Do you see anything there about beating children and servants?

Now 2 from the Gospel of Matthew:

1155 --- Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

The Scripture says, 17: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill..”

--- (Because this was the New Covenant that changed the OT Law, it is the opposite to an endorsement of the OT, which was being replaced by this in John 13:

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

³⁵By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

1157 Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

The Scripture says, 12 “ Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

¹³“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

^14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

--- (It seems that those who have a warlike mentality, never see anything good.)

Placid

Grief · December 27, 2013

(bismillah)

Hi Lemon,

In response to your good understanding in Post 9:

I know you do not share the critical attitude contained in these lists, but it is okay to question Christians on what they do believe.
I could easily ignore this as somebody who spent a lot of time gathering over 1300 verses to comment on. --- Of course, I didn’t read them all, but I will comment on a few, so bear with me, and see if you agree with his comments:

First of all, I don’t agree with Chuck Norris, who is on TV I believe, as a ‘Texas Ranger,’ --- He is a master of the ‘Marshal arts,’ so tries to promote good and right as a ‘peace keeper.’
However, his statement that “Jesus was a God of war,”.--- is wrong.
Jesus was not God, but was CALLED the Son of God in the Gospels to fulfill the role of the perfect Sacrifice for sin, and is later referred to as the ‘Servant of God.’ --- He had to rise from the dead to show that there is life after death for believers and that His Kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom,

--- He was a Man of Peace, --- He is called ‘The Prince of Peace.’

In the Garden when Peter used a sword and cut the ear off the servant of the High Priest, Jesus said, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” Matthew 26:52. --- (And Luke records that Jesus healed the ear.)

And when Jesus was questioned by Pilate about His kingdom in John 18:
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” --- (The Spiritual Kingdom.)

Now I want to comment on a few statements:
(After having said that there was wisdom in the proverbs, I noticed these first two.

812 Beating your children will make them wise. 29:15
The Scripture says, 15 “The rod (discipline) and rebuke give wisdom,
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.”
17 “Correct your son, and he will give you rest;
Yes, he will give delight to your soul.”

813 Beat your servants (slaves), as though they were your children. 29:19
The Scripture says, 18 “Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint;
But happy is he who keeps the law.”.
¹⁹ “A servant will not be corrected by mere words;
For though he understands, he will not respond.
(The nature of servants is to listen, understand, and obey)

--- Do you see anything there about beating children and servants?

Now 2 from the Gospel of Matthew:
1155 --- Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
The Scripture says, 17: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill..”
--- (Because this was the New Covenant that changed the OT Law, it is the opposite to an endorsement of the OT, which was being replaced by this in John 13:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
³⁵By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

1157 Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
The Scripture says, 12 “ Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
¹³“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
^14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

I see. Makes a lot more sense when you analyse the verses without bias... Cherry-picked would be the correct word for what they did then, I guess.

(It seems that those who have a warlike mentality, never see anything good.)

This is very true. The people that take the verses of Surah Tawbah out of context in order to be given a (false) excuse to use violence against innocents seem to always forget to read the verses directly preceeding and proceeding them...

It reads:

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful" (9:5).

This was a command for wartime when the Muslims were being attacked and the treaty had been broken through blood... They were allowed to fight back in self-defence. The terrorists take this out of context and fail to read the verse before:

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him] (9:4).

Or the ones after:

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know (9:6).

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him] (9:7).

So what you said is very correct and probably applies to a wide range of people, sadly :/.

Edited December 27, 2013 by BuggyLemon

PeaceLoving · December 27, 2013

So what you said is very correct and probably applies to a wide range of people, sadly :/.

The interesting thing is that most critics deliberately ignore all the good teachings in the Quran.

Here is a small sample.

CONFLICT

[26:227] Those who believe and do good and defend themselves when they are attacked. Those who do wrong will soon know that they will be vanquished.

FORGIVENESS

[3:134] Those who spend (in charity) is ease as in difficulty, those who curb their anger and forgive men.God loves those who do good.

[42:37] Those who avoid the worst of sins and indecencies and when they are angry, they forgive.

FALSE ACCUSATION

[4:112] And whoever commits a wrong and accuses an innocent person takes upon himself the burden of a calumny and a manifest sin.

Finding fault with others

[49:11]Do not mock others while (unbeknownst) to you, they may be better than you. And women should not mock other women, who might be better than them. And do not find fault with your people or call one another by nick-names.

FRIENDSHIP WITH NON-MUSLIMS

[60:8-9] ‘God does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with those who have not made war on you on account of your religion or driven you from your homes. God loves those who act with fairness. He only forbids you from befriending those who have fought with you because of your faith and have driven you from your homes or aided those who have driven you forth. And whoever makes friends with them is a wrong-doer.

GOODNESS TO ALL MEN

[4:114] In most of their secret talk there is nothing good, but only in his who enjoins charity or that which is right or good relations with men. Whoso does this, out of desire to please God, We will give him a great reward.

GRACEFUL BEHAVIOR

[25:63] The servants of the All-merciful are those who walk humbly in the earth and when the ignorant address them, say, 'Peace'.

[25:72] And those who do not bear witness to that which is false, and when they pass by idle talk, they move on gracefully.

GREETINGS FOR ALL (BETTER THAN HOW YOU WERE GREETED)

[4:86] If ye are greeted with a greeting, then return it with a better greeting, or at least return it (of the same quality). God takes count of all things.

HUMILITY

[28:83] As for the future abode, we assign it to those who have no desire to exalt themselves in the earth or to make mischief. The good end is for the pious.

Justice even if it goes against your relatives.

[4:135] Believers, stand fast to justice, when you bear witness before God, though it be against yourselves, your parents, or your kindred, whether the party be rich or poor. God is nearer than you to both. Therefore follow not passion, lest you swerve from truth. And if you wrest your testimony or stand aloof, God verily is well aware of what you do.

[5:106] We will not take a price and depart from justice, even if it be against a relative. And we will not hide the testimony of God for then we will certainly be sinners (last part of verse)

[6:152] And draw not nigh to the wealth of orphans, except in an upright manner, until they come of age. Give weight and measure with justice. We do not task a soul beyond its ability. And when you judge, observe justice even if it be (against) a relative. And fulfill God's covenant. This has He enjoined you with that you may remember.

Justice for enemies

[5:2] Believers, do not violate the sacred rites of God nor the holy month nor the offerings nor the ornaments nor those repairing to the sacred house seeking the bounty of the Lord and His pleasure. But when the pilgrimage is over, then hunt. And let not the malice of some (nonbelievers), in that they prevented you from entering the sacred mosque, provoke you to cross your boundaries. But help one another in goodness and piety and help not in (acts of) evil or malice. And fear God. He is severe in punishing.

[5:8] Believers, stand up as witnesses for God by righteousness, and let not ill-will for anyone cause you not to act uprightly. Act uprightly. Next will this be to the fear of God. And fear God. Indeed God is well-aware of what you do.

KILLING

[17:33] And kill not any one whom God has forbidden you kill, except for a just cause. And whosoever shall be killed wrongfully, to his heir have we given powers (to retaliate), but let him not step over bounds in putting the killer to death, for he too, in his turn, will be assisted and avenged.

PATIENCE

[2:155] And We will try you with a bit of fear and hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruit harvests, But give good tidings to the patient.

[41:34] The good and evil deed shall not be treated equally. Repel evil with the best response.Your enemy will then become a good friend.

[70:7] Therefore be patient in a becoming manner

[73:10] Bear patiently what they say and part company with them gracefully

RESPECT FOR THE HOUSES OF WORSHIP OF OTHER RELIGIONS

[22:40] Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said, 'Our Lord is God'. For had it not been God's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is often mentioned, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed, God helps those who help Him. He is Al-Powerful and All-High.

PeaceLoving · December 28, 2013

The people that take the verses of Surah Tawbah out of context in order to be given a (false) excuse to use violence against innocents seem to always forget to read the verses directly preceding and proceeding them....

The technique they use in known as cherry-picking.

They will disregard the verses before or after, the context of revelation and all those other things that are necessary for proper comprehension.

They are just interested on one single verse,even as in the case of [9:1] onward, they are an integral part of a larger text.

**placid** · December 28, 2013

Hi Lemon,

Thank you for your positive response. --- When we find anyone with a negative attitude towards religion, --- they don’t want to see anything good, or ‘needed’ in society, but they want to drag others down to their level of thinking.

Quote from Post 13:

This is very true. The people that take the verses of Surah Tawbah out of context in order to be given a (false) excuse to use violence against innocents seem to always forget to read the verses directly preceeding and proceeding them...

--- Exactly. --- Because these ‘links’ give the opinions of others, they can influence those who read these tainted remarks. --- This is why I say, “Read it from the Bible or the Quran, to understand what is written before reading it from another person’s opinion.”

I have been accused of ‘cherry picking’ as well, so that is why I often write longer posts to include the context.

--- Another thing about negative people, they like to find others who will agree with them. --- This is often the cause of demonstrations, a number of people disagreeing with something and banding together with a negative mindset. --- Rather than having something positive to replace what they are opposed to, they only promote what they are against.

Surah 9 was given after the victory had been won over the idolaters, but the order is given that within the next year all idolaters had to accept Islam (surrender to God), --- leave the country, --- or run the risk of being put to death as enemies of God, which they were.

--- In an uncanny way, history has included Jews and Christians as being against Islam (surrender to God) and it has been this misunderstanding that has caused the great division between us.

By the way, --- we were never meant to join together as some have tried to do. --- There is some movement called ‘Chrislam,’ --- which, although it has some prominent clergy interested, --- it is totally a man-made organization.

Surah 5:48 says plainly that there are three religions, and remember the quote by Imam Ali that I used:

(Quote from Shiachat):

Verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. (End of quote).

--- I would like to go back to another topic to study this division, --- but rest assured, that there is no interest in going against what God initiated.

Let Christians be Christians according to the Gospel, and let Muslims be Muslims, according to the Quran --- and live by the good verses that Peace listed. --- They promote Peace and harmony with others, --- not conflict.

We must have Faith in God, and surrender our will to Him, --- then the good works that we do are done according to His will. --- Then in our discussions we can learn about each others’ religion, and, perhaps more about our own, --- is that not right?

Placid

**placid** · December 28, 2013

Hi Peace,

Those verses in Post 14 are great. They are the essence of goodness.

--- This would be a great direction to go on Shiachat, --- as an alternative to Bible criticism and prolonged discussions on minor points that have nothing to do with our soul’s salvation.

As I read them over I see that they are all basically Christian values that need to be followed in all of our lives, is that not right?

--- Many Christians are very lax in their conduct and choice of input to their minds, --- And nominal, or so-called Christians cannot be distinguished from the world.

--- I wonder if you, --- by your nature, as ‘Peaceloving,’ were to post topics, --- on this list of virtues, and the list of sayings by Ali, from the other topic, --- if it would not attract more positive Muslim readers who would agree with you, and share the goodness of Islam, rather than the negative attitude that is generally portrayed?

Grief · December 28, 2013

Hi Peace,

Those verses in Post 14 are great. They are the essence of goodness.
--- This would be a great direction to go on Shiachat, --- as an alternative to Bible criticism and prolonged discussions on minor points that have nothing to do with our soul’s salvation.

As I read them over I see that they are all basically Christian values that need to be followed in all of our lives, is that not right?
--- Many Christians are very lax in their conduct and choice of input to their minds, --- And nominal, or so-called Christians cannot be distinguished from the world.

--- I wonder if you, --- by your nature, as ‘Peaceloving,’ were to post topics, --- on this list of virtues, and the list of sayings by Ali, from the other topic, --- if it would not attract more positive Muslim readers who would agree with you, and share the goodness of Islam, rather than the negative attitude that is generally portrayed?

(bismillah)

You're right to be honest... Let's make a change and start spreading positivity from now on...

Islam teaches "amarta bil ma'roof wa nahayta 'anil munkar"

Meaning "enjoin good and forbid evil"

We should start acting like proper Muslims and stop dwelling on unimportant, trivial topics...

Insha'Allah God rewards you for your willingness to change things and steer us in the right direction, Placid.

as an alternative to Bible criticism

I'm sorry. I genuinely just wanted to know the stance of Christians on the verses since I never hear them mentioned (the site was misleading, nonetheless). You cleared it up for me.

I hope you weren't offended.

(wasalam)

Edited December 28, 2013 by BuggyLemon

**Son of Placid** · December 28, 2013

No worries Buggy Lemon, You didn't come up with a "AHA on Christianity" like so many do. These verses are so often misrepresented that it's good to know what they mean rather than what someone wants them to mean.

PeaceLoving · December 28, 2013

it's good to know what they mean rather than what someone wants them to mean.

You have hit the nail on the head.

People love to say they know what 'it' means.

They won't listen to anything else.

**placid** · December 28, 2013

Hi Lemon and Peace,

Thank you so much, --- No, there was no offense. --- Those who write such things have to be aware that God is a witness to everything that is said and done. --- So, their offence is against God, and that is not a good position to be in.

However, when I was going through the Proverbs, I noticed another verse that was not on that list, that used the term ‘train up’ dealing with children, I suppose had he used that he might have said ‘beat into submission.’ --- Or maybe not quite that extreme.

Anyway, the verse says in Proverbs 22:

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

--- This came to mind.

Nearly 9 years ago after I had come on Shiachat and did some posting and had some response, I had an attack and had to go in for heart surgery, --- My Son was aware that I had been on Shiachat, and he came on and asked prayer for me from the Muslims I had been discussing with. --- Two said they would pray for me and others wished me well, and the Lord graciously restored me.

This Son is still around and is still posting on these topics.

--- It goes without saying that “This is one of my great delights.”

We will certainly look forward to your new topics.

Thanks.

PeaceLoving · December 29, 2013

Those verses in Post 14 are great. They are the essence of goodness.

Hi Placid

Thanks for your kind words.

I wonder if you, by your nature, as ‘Peaceloving,’ were to post topics, on this list of virtues, and the list of sayings by Ali, from the other topic?

The problem is the culture of these discussion boards.

If I had my way, I would establish serious rules of conduct.

Most people here are young and can speak anonymously.

No one really knows anyone else.

There need to be more restrictions placed on the entire culture of these discussions.

But I agree that the world will be a much more peaceful place if we all tried to contribute.

To some extent, that used to be the case before modern technology invaded our lives.

I was born and raised in India, a country with a Hindu majority.

Muslims are second in numbers and Christians, Sikhs, Parsis, Jains etc. also well represented.

When I went to school, we had kids from every faith but never - not once did we ever discuss religion.

Now, the Internet with its discussion boards is reversing all that.

But yes, I agree, we must all try.

The Quran ordered the Prophet to offer mutual cooperation to the People of the Book, by forging the common bond of belief in one God.

[3:64] 'Say, O People of the Book! (Let us) come to an agreement between the two of us - that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. But if they turn away, then say, 'Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)'.

Muslims are then ordered to avoid arguments and debates with all religions - unless they can do it very nicely.

[16:125] Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in a nice way. Lo! your Lord is Best Aware of him who strays from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.

Debates and discussions with Jews and Christians should be especially conducted in a very nice manner as required by the following verse, which also declares that Islam believes in the same God as they do.

[29:46] And do not argue with the People of the Book except in a nice manner, save with those who do wrong. And say. 'we believe in that which has been revealed to us as well as to you. Our God and your God is One. And unto Him do we surrender'.

CLynn · December 29, 2013

The problem is the culture of these discussion boards.

If I had my way, I would establish serious rules of conduct.

Most people here are young and can speak anonymously.

No one really knows anyone else.

There need to be more restrictions placed on the entire culture of these discussions.

Greetings PeaceLoving,

On this I have to disagree with you.

Restriction is not the answer. How are we to know the hearts and minds if we are not to speak freely. Shall we keep our thoughts locked away inside ourselves so that our prejudices may grow? I say, "No".

The only way we come to know and understand one another is through free speaking of what goes on inside the mind and heart... of the things we have learned and of the things we do not yet know.

The only way hearts and minds are changed is through free speaking and exchange of thoughts and ideas and misconceptions.

If anonymity furthers free speech, then anonymity is a good thing... it furthers our understanding of one another, and with understanding comes less fear and more acceptance.

Salaam and blessings to you PeaceLoving. :)

PeaceLoving · December 29, 2013

Restriction is not the answer.

Greetings Clynn

Well then what is the answer?

Edited December 29, 2013 by PeaceLoving

CLynn · December 29, 2013

ving,

Greetings Clynn

Well then what is the answer?

Greetings PeaceLoving,

:) I think the discussion boards are good and need only to be intervened when people become personally insulting, attacking or rude. As long as people are only expressing what they believe I think they do more good than harm.

I think private admonishments for those who appear to be veering onto a bad course are also helpful. But without open expression would we ever be aware of those who are veering onto a dangerous course? Isn't it better to know sooner, rather than later, when one can still be guided?

Salaam,

CLynn

Edited December 29, 2013 by CLynn

PeaceLoving · December 29, 2013

Greetings Clynn

I disagree

I know that when I was in school, the fact that we never talked about religion, contributed to peace and understanding among us.

I would not have had any real good friends among non-Muslims, if the discussion board culture had existed then.

You might not have experienced something similar because the US was essentially a Christian, not a secular, country. There are a lot of bad things in India but in one respect, it leads the world. Unlike Europe and America, India has been a secular country for a long, long time.

For a host of different reasons, on a world-wide scale, there is a lot of prejudice on the basis of religion. Discussion boards are not entirely responsible for this but they are helping fuel the flames.

That is my view.

Edited December 29, 2013 by PeaceLoving

PeaceLoving · December 29, 2013

Isn't it better to know sooner, rather than later, when one can still be guided?

Your parents are the best people to guide you.

Guidance on discussion boards can only be a collateral blessing.

Discussion boards are capable of immense damage.

CLynn · December 29, 2013

Your parents are the best people to guide you.
Guidance on discussion boards can only be a collateral blessing.

Discussion boards are capable of immense damage.

Greetings PeaceLoving,

I'm a believer in 'it takes a village'. Kids reach a point where they will listen to outsiders better than to parents... They need to hear from others besides just their parents. Parents need reinforcements. It is what I feel is wrong with society today... Parents do not get the outside support that is required to properly guide children... they need societal norms and guides as well.

I'm a believer in the ancient ways, where a village (or a tribe) always revered and respected the elders of the clan, and deferred to them for their wisdom.... the interaction of young and old was, and is, extremely important to the development of a good society. Community boards help to recreate this environment... the interaction of young and old. The young with their fresh, new, viewpoints... and the elders with their knowledge and wisdom gained from life and living. :)

Salaam,

CLynn

**IloveImamHussain** · December 29, 2013

Parents need reinforcements.

Hi Clynn Internet is not a reliable reinforcement. In fact, it is a very dangerous place. There are all sorts of predators around.

The Quran ordered the Prophet to offer mutual cooperation to the People of the Book, by forging the common bond of belief in one God.

[3:64] 'Say, O People of the Book! (Let us) come to an agreement between the two of us - that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. But if they turn away, then say, 'Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)'.

Muslims are then ordered to avoid arguments and debates with all religions - unless they can do it very nicely.

[16:125] Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in a nice way. Lo! your Lord is Best Aware of him who strays from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.

Debates and discussions with Jews and Christians should be especially conducted in a very nice manner as required by the following verse, which also declares that Islam believes in the same God as they do.

[29:46] And do not argue with the People of the Book except in a nice manner, save with those who do wrong. And say. 'we believe in that which has been revealed to us as well as to you. Our God and your God is One. And unto Him do we surrender'.

Good advice especially needed on this forum

PeaceLoving · December 30, 2013

It is what I feel is wrong with society today...

There are lots of things that are wrong in society today.

But discussion boards are not the right way to correct them - at least not in the manner they are run.

With some changes perhaps yes.

Besides, people trying to learn are not necessarily aware who is qualified enough to impart the right information.

I have seen lots of misinformation being passed around by people even in regard to their own religion.

But if you think that you can learn, well then by all means no one is stopping you.

I am not asking anyone to stay away.

I am just asking for changes in these boards in the way they are run.

That is all.

Sumerian · December 31, 2013

Alhamdulillah! Christianity I see is a very humble religion that is close to Islam...

shreek · February 12, 2014

Christianity is not a religion of unquestionable Pacifism.

If peace cannot be reached, Christians have the right to self-defence against an unjust aggressor.

(CCC 2309).

In fact, it is even a 'duty' to protect those who cannot otherwise protect themselves and to defend oneself and homeland in these cases. (CCC 2310).

The Church even has a teaching, sometimes referred to as the "Just War Doctrine' on this very issue.

orthodox1234 · February 12, 2014

(bismillah)

(salam)

I am not jumping to any conclusions nor making any false assumptions about any religion.

This is why I have come here to ask our Christian friends (Merry Christmas) what they think about the numerous violent verses within the Bible?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

I mean no ill intentions by this... I am genuinely curious to know your opinions on this topic... Just as many of the Christians have posed this question to us with respect to Quran, I would like to fairly pose this question to the Christians here and ask that you help me understand the beliefs of Christianity better.

Thank you :).

(wasalam)

The Bible calls God, a God of war, he laughs at the nations as they plot against his people in vain, he decrees destruction, and disaster. God is judges the wicked in the book of Revelation, the enemies of God fear God so much they ask the rocks to fall on them, 'fall on us hide us from him who sits upon the throne' -- ther is nothing wrong w/violent verses in scripture. Some are describing the wickedness of man, some of them describing the justice of God. All of them for the very purpose of God to bring about a person to save his people from their sin - the church.

**placid** · February 13, 2014

Hi Grief,

Quote from Post 18:

You're right to be honest... Let's make a change and start spreading positivity from now on...

Islam teaches "amarta bil ma'roof wa nahayta 'anil munkar"

Meaning "enjoin good and forbid evil"

We should start acting like proper Muslims and stop dwelling on unimportant, trivial topics...

Insha'Allah God rewards you for your willingness to change things and steer us in the right direction.

Response: --- In re-reading this topic, I see that I thanked Lemon and Peace for their input, but I didn’t thank you properly for your comments and conclusion.

I hope that you have taken time to read some of the Gospels with interest, the same way that I read the Quran.

As I said previously, we are not meant to join together, but we are to have harmony, as we read in Surah 5:48.

As has been said, the Message of the Gospel in of Peace, not of violence, and having peace in our hearts can generate peace in our homes and communities.

Of course, in the Book of Revelation, there will be the Day of Judgment when the wicked must be destroyed and God will restore His righteousness.

I am not sure if our discussion has prompted many more ‘harmonious topics,’ --- but we must keep thinking in that direction, must we not?

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