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In the Name of God بسم الله

My Debate With Farid: Exposing The Lies

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mutazili(wasil)

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Salam alaykom 

 

If the admin allows me then i will post everyday parts of this debate to show who really won the debate 

 

I will start by the discussion regarding abu hurairah first and i will explain why afterwards inshallah.

 

It's a great debate that Farid and his friends claim to have won but i will let you judge for yourselves:

 

I start with my first post about abu hurairah :

 

please discuss this in an other thread

 

salam alaykom 

I don't know what rule did you base your view upon whne you said it's easier for ibrahim ibn hashim to lie upon other people rather than masoomin (as)? any scientific proof? or is this just from "kees" (purse or wallet) of farid? smile.gif 

your other arguments are already answered in my previous post so here it it , no need for repetition:

http://islamic-forum...indpost&p=97688

as for ahmed ibn hanbal and his one million memorized hadith then it's relevant because you are amazed at 30 thousand answer (even though i know this is not your main argument but still it's in the topic)

we know thatrasool Allah(saww) when he saw so many lies attributedto him he said : whoever lied upon me deliberately then let him book his chair in hell (rough translation) 

it's time to start with abu hurairah now so i start with a small dose :

in sahih muslim chapter of jumu'a-chapter of "fadhl" yawm al-jumu'a hadith number 854:

854 وحدثنا قتيبة بن سعيد حدثنا المغيرة يعني الحزامي عن أبي الزناد عن الأعرج عن أبي هريرة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال خير يوم طلعت عليه الشمس يوم الجمعة فيه خلق آدم وفيه أدخل الجنة وفيه أخرج منها ولا تقوم الساعة إلا في يوم الجمعة

abu hurairah said : the prophet (saww) SAID : the best day in which the sun has risen is the Friday, in it Adam was created ...etc 

but in sahih abi khuzaimah abu hurarah said :

محمد بن يحيى ، حدثنا قال : نا محمد بن يوسف ، ثنا الأوزاعي ، عن يحيى ، عن أبي سلمة ، عن أبي هريرة : خير يوم طلعت فيه الشمس يوم الجمعة ، فيه خلق آدم ، وفيه أسكن الجنة ، وفيه أخرج منها ، وفيه تقوم الساعة ، قال : قلت له : أشيء سمعته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟ قال : بل شيء حدثناه كعب

mohamed ibn yahya narrated mohamed ibn ussof narrated al-awza'i from yahya from abi salamah from abu hurairah he said : the best day in which the sun has risen is the Friday ... so i asked him( abu salamah asking abu hurairah) : did you hear this from rasool Allah ?? he ( abu hurairah) said :it's rather something Kaab(Kaab al-ahbar ) told me !!!

here's the hadith from sahih ibn khuzaimah :

محمد بن يحيى ، حدثنا قال : نا محمد بن يوسف ، ثنا الأوزاعي ، عن يحيى ، عن أبي سلمة ، عن أبي هريرة : خير يوم طلعت فيه الشمس يوم الجمعة ، فيه خلق آدم ، وفيه أسكن الجنة ، وفيه أخرج منها ، وفيه تقوم الساعة ، قال : قلت له : أشيء سمعته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟ قال : بل شيء حدثناه كعب

so did abu hurairah hear this from the prophet or from Kaab and if it's from kaab how could he attribute it to rasool Allah (saww) ???

but more confusion is coming from the book of malik : muwatta malik :

243 وحدثني عن مالك عن يزيد بن عبد الله بن الهاد عن محمد بن إبراهيم بن الحارث التيمي عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن بن عوف عن أبي هريرة أنه قال خرجت إلى الطور فلقيت كعب الأحبار فجلست معه فحدثني عن التوراة وحدثته عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فكان فيما حدثته أن قلت قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خير يوم طلعت عليه الشمس يوم الجمعة فيه خلق آدم

narrated malik from yazeed ibn abdilleh ibn alhaad from mohamed ibn ibrahim ibn alharith altaimi from abi salamah ibn abdirrahman ibn awf that abu hurairah said : i went out... so i met Kaab Al-Ahbar so i sat with him and he told me about tawraat (Torah) and i told him about rasool Allah , and amongst what i told him i said : the prophet (saww) said: the best day in which the son has risen is the The Friday ...the hadith 

awaiting your comments farid 


Farid answered 

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Debating on these issues in reality is a waste of time because it doesn't get anyone anywhere. Both parties will still be inclined towards their views no matter what. If a person was sincere enough, he/she would seek for the truth themselves.

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Better for you to leave it. I remember still how this debate was propagated. Want to be X shia turned Sunni some Saima Bukhari came to this forum doing advertisement for this debate. Your mistake was to go on that forum and debate there. That forum is not Ahle Sunnah forum but hardcore nasbis are there. Their agenda is pure shia hate and for that they use no matter what evil they can. I used to do many debates there but they remove thread, deactivate ids.

 

And you know I don't know about others but I strongly believe that you are one of them too.  

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Better for you to leave it. I remember still how this debate was propagated. Want to be X shia turned Sunni some Saima Bukhari came to this forum doing advertisement for this debate. Your mistake was to go on that forum and debate there. That forum is not Ahle Sunnah forum but hardcore nasbis are there. Their agenda is pure shia hate and for that they use no matter what evil they can. I used to do many debates there but they remove thread, deactivate ids.

 

And you know I don't know about others but I strongly believe that you are one of them too.

You seem to think everyone is a secret Wahhabi.

Ok i'll leave it 

 

ws

No, you should carry on. You had a well-publicised debate, and are entitled to give your comments on it. Personally, I would be much more interested in reading it than most of the threads on here these days. Those who aren't interested can simply choose not to read the thread.

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You seem to think everyone is a secret Wahhabi.

No, you should carry on. You had a well-publicised debate, and are entitled to give your comments on it. Personally, I would be much more interested in reading it than most of the threads on here these days. Those who aren't interested can simply choose not to read the thread.

 

Akhi 

 

i had enough 

 

I am being called a nasibi and fake shia and was told that the debate is staged even by people who didn't read it . 

 

I am out of here 

 

now i was picked on by a salafi mujassim and a man thinking he is the mahdi(as)

 

i am out of here akhi 

ws

ps: i lost my temper and i abused everyone in the chat room . 

 

I am going to be banned anyway 

 

good luck akhi 

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Akhi 

 

i had enough 

 

I am being called a nasibi and fake shia and was told that the debate is staged even by people who didn't read it . 

 

I am out of here 

 

now i was picked on by a salafi mujassim and a man thinking he is the mahdi(as)

 

i am out of here akhi 

wsps: i lost my temper and i abused everyone in the chat room . 

 

I am going to be banned anyway 

 

good luck akhi

Being called a fake Shia is normal around here. You just need to develop a thick skin, and learn to ignore the village idiots.

As for what you did in chat, unless it was extreme I doubt you will be banned from posting. In such cases, they usually just give a chat ban.

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(salam)

This seems productive :donno: 

 

Proving each other wrong to get some sort of validation from other's...?

 

A simple concept: Seek knowledge and the Truth for yourself; if people don't agree, it's not an issue. Why does it matter who won the debate? Are they your Judge?

 

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (AS) said:

 

"Try to obtain knowledge and ornament it with patience and dignity; and be humble for the one who learns knowledge from you."

 

[Al-Kafi, vol.1, p. 36]

 

Even if you did so-call 'win' the debate; given the Ahadith above, would you (from an outside-perspective) really pay attention to the party who went out of their way to show they won?

 

Hope you all are well, Insha'Allah khair :)

 

(wasalam)  AB313

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(salam)

 

Please continue bro. An attack was launched against one of our main narrators and it is only fair we respond to it least some of the Shias get swayed.

 

(salam)

 

I'm not against any debate in general (if it's for teaching purposes); however, you shouldn't have to 'sway' people to the Truth.

 

"Your Honor is solid, but it becomes liquid when you beg or ask for something from people; therefore, you should see before whom your honor liquefies." ~Imam Ali (AS)

 

 

"Do not enslave yourself to other's when the Glorious God has created you free!" ~Imam Ali (AS)

 

 

Be Free and Insha'Allah the debate brings enlightenment and wisdom to everyone involved ^_^

 

(wasalam) AB313  

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This would've been the most interesting topic we'd had here for a while, I don't know why anyone would tell brother Wasil to stop.

Also, Muntaqim Force, I recommend you read the debate over again I've never before seen a "staged" debate where the one staging it loses. The most knowledgeable two here are Dar'ul Islam and Wasil, I'm baffled at what makes everyone think they can attack the latter. Anyway please continue with the topic, it's a great one and I thought it would've been great to have some more light shed on this issue.

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If this thread is an absolute waste of time, then you should close this forum.

Shame on people like you.

 

why?? it IS waste of time by discussing with people who will not listen. nothing wrong here, and I agree with Wizdom here.

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This would've been the most interesting topic we'd had here for a while, I don't know why anyone would tell brother Wasil to stop.

Also, Muntaqim Force, I recommend you read the debate over again I've never before seen a "staged" debate where the one staging it loses. The most knowledgeable two here are Dar'ul Islam and Wasil, I'm baffled at what makes everyone think they can attack the latter. Anyway please continue with the topic, it's a great one and I thought it would've been great to have some more light shed on this issue.

 

I suspect another Saima Bukhari here lol

This would've been the most interesting topic we'd had here for a while, I don't know why anyone would tell brother Wasil to stop.

Also, Muntaqim Force, I recommend you read the debate over again I've never before seen a "staged" debate where the one staging it loses. The most knowledgeable two here are Dar'ul Islam and Wasil, I'm baffled at what makes everyone think they can attack the latter. Anyway please continue with the topic, it's a great one and I thought it would've been great to have some more light shed on this issue.

 

Why do you want to discuss Rijal!! We read hadith and if mutn of it is contradicting Quran (which does not need rijaal) we reject it. If mutn is not contradicting Quran but we cannot understand, we pray 2 rakaat salaat and our Imam a.j helps. 

 

Why you need to discuss Ibrahim!!!? And your fake debate was not only for Ibrahim but Abu Hurraira too. I dont see this guy speaking about him for more than few posts and then giving up by defending Ibrahim. 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

The very purpose of the debate if based on winning then one looses the debate then and there, but if it is done with a purpose of sharing view point of a school of thought based on wisdom and teachings, then it may serve the purpose of enlightening many people. 

 

This sort of debate is not required, rather there are many sites which covers such things and one after the other new refutation sites are coming up where people are exposing their poor rijal system by either declaring someone a liar which ironically has been praised by many others and had been used a number of time while quoting other narrations. If sunni rijal system is exposed them i heard Kamal Al Hydari lamenting on few narrations in shia books too.(search video on youtube)

 

The problem with rijalians are known to shias for centuries and that's why matn of hadith has been given preference. I am sure Brother Darul Islam will be able to ponder more on this.

 

It reminds me Brother Nader Zaveri's blog where he used rijal for many purposes. For example, his article on the daughters of Prophet SAWAW. A excellent comment for the rijal system, where the person asked him to give the exact date of birth or year of birth, then order of birth of children, age at the time of first marraige, then divorcing years, followed by marriage dates with Usman. Let me cut paste the comment

quote :  

 

 

Prophet married Hazrat Khadija (as) at the age of 25 and announces Prophet hood at the age of 40. According to many historians (may be wrong but proof u need to seek), during these years she gave birth to Hazrat Qasim (Aleh e Salam) who died and all other were born after the announcement of Prophet Hood. After seven of years of Announcement, the Prophet SAWAW was forced to live in Shab e Abi Talib for three years and no hadiaath or riwayat (historical account) says the Hazrat Khadija (Salamullah e Aleha) gave birth to any child during this period. Now lets see, what we conclude with logic from this. She (as) gave birth of all other children less Qasim (Aleh e Salam) during seven years i.e once Prophet SAWAW was 40 years old till 7 years before sahbe abi talab incident i.e 47 years old. And those children grew up married to non muslims and then given divorce on announcement of Prophet hood.  Brother Nader please proof your article with birth dates and references.

 

According to the historical account, Once Prophet (SAWAW) got injured in Ahad, only Hazrat Fatima (as) came and nursed Him (SAWAW), where were other daughters. We all know what Abu Lahab (LA) did by placing some dirt on the back of Prophet (SAWAW) what happened, who all came to wash that away, do we have names of other daughters as well.

 

At the time of announcement of Prophet hood (if these daughters were already born - (yet to be establish historical account which you need to provide) then we see the first day Hazrat Khadija and Umme Amen wife of Zaid bin Harris accept Islam but in History we don't find the names of other daughters of Prophet accepting Islam as they were supposed to be married with non muslims and they were supposed to accept IslamCould not make out what he wanted to say here with word supposition however point is home.

 

Brother, certain hadiaths have crept in Sheeah books has to be pitched against the historical facts of births and important events which are documented and no difference on their dates exists. Like battle dates, date of shab e abi talib, Nikkah of Lady Fatimah (as). BTW who read the nikkah of other daughters, as we do find Prophet (SAWAW) read the Nikkah of Lady Fatima (as) But in history and hadiaaths we do not find anywhere whether our work or the work of Ahle Sunnah that Prophet read the Nikkah of other daughters. Even once they were getting married 2nd time in case of Usman (3rd Caliph as recorded History). So please provide all these proves with dates.

 

Besides first hadiaath is a supplication, 2nd says marriage occurs after Ali with no real details. 3rd merely refers as per common saying daughter of of Prophet (SAWAW) as adopted or raised children are often referred as such. 4th is daeef, 5th you did mentioned the chain is rejected despite labeling it reliable, 6th is daeef as per note 10, 7th Hadeeath grading is missing, and same goes for the rest of your hadiaaths. I would like to get an update like if you post scanned images of date of birth of all the children, date of marrages of all the children and date of deaths as well. I think this portion of the comment is purely related to the article 

 

As far as supplication for their magfirah, or referring to them as Daughters of Prophet (SAWAW) i believe its a custom that who ever brought up any child are normally referred as Father.

 

Now about last of your article touching upon the great scholars i do agree yet non of these scholars have provided any authentic historical account of birth dates. Rather they confirm that Al Qasim (as) and Al Tahir (as) both died in Macca as infant.

 

According to Ibne Hisham was Al Qasim whereas youngest was Al Tahir, Among them were Ruqqaiah (ra), Zainab (ra), Ume Kalsoom (ra) and Lady Fatimah (AS)Ref your post of Jaffar Subhanni, which i say not in order as he says so. As i told earlier, 15 years after marraige Prophet (SAWAW) declare his Prophethood and invite people to Islam, lets consider that the children were born before that then at best we may claim that the eldest daughter may be near 9 years of age yet the other one might be even younger and gatting married  divorced and married again - a big question mark. Could not make out  what he wanted to say so i add divorced and married

 

So we need to re visit the historical facts and figures. By all means i do respect your entire post an effort worth reading but as i said i still need a clear analysis on this as many of Shia researchers have proved it otherwise like some one earlier quoted Mir Murad Khan article

 

Another one 

 

why Prophet SAWAW always talk of only Fatima (as) and stand for her once in some gathering etc etc. Why our Prophet SAWAW never ever mentioned about other daughters and stand for them as well. Nazobillah, you people are making no sense here by challenging the ismah of Prophet SAWAW and his behaviour towards other daughters as compared to Hazrat Fatima (as) injustice (Nazobillah).

 

 

As we can see rijal system yet again fails to answer the questions / observations

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(bismillah)

The problem with rijalians are known to shias for centuries and that's why matn of hadith has been given preference. I am sure Brother Darul Islam will be able to ponder more on this.

The only problem with this is that is can often turn into a case of just accepting whatever sounds good, and rejecting whatever doesn't. Or, to be more precise, accepting whatever conforms with the dominant beliefs of the time, and rejecting whatever doesn't. This is hardly a very objective way if analysing historical data.

 

It reminds me Brother Nader Zaveri's blog where he used rijal for many purposes. For example, his article on the daughters of Prophet SAWAW. A excellent comment for the rijal system, where the person asked him to give the exact date of birth or year of birth, then order of birth of children, age at the time of first marraige, then divorcing years, followed by marriage dates with Usman. Let me cut paste the comment

 

As we can see rijal system yet again fails to answer the questions / observations

These questions would be unanswerable for a number of events that you would accept. Just how much reliable information do you think we have about jahiliyyah times or even pre-hijri times? There are differences of opinion over all kinds of things, including the date of the marriage of Imam Ali to Sayyida Fatima, which the person you quoted claims has an established date. It is therefore absurd to ask for the dates of birth, with references, of the Prophet's other daughters, while acting like a failure to do so somehow undermines the fact that they are his daughters. Especially when this whole theory of the Prophet (pbuh) only having one daughter isn't based on any references at all. It's all speculation and conjecture. All the historical data points in the direction of their being 4 daughters, and actual evidence had to be preferred to conjecture, particularly when that conjecture is motivated by sectarian biases.

Regarding the supposed 'injustice' of the Prophet (pbuh) by showing preference to Sayyida Fatima (as), then it would be no different from Yaqub (as) showing preference to Yusuf (as) over his other sons, or the Imams showing preference to the next Imam over their other children.

You end by saying that rijal can not answer all these questions that are brought up, but rijal is simply a tool that has a specific purpose. I don't think even the most die-hard rijalist would claim that historical investigation begins and ends with rijal.

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