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asad1

Absurdities In Hadis

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Please accept my apologies; my intention with this post is not to offend or inflame anyone but to have a sobering discussion.

 

Although I have heard my fair share of absurd ahadis, both shia and sunni, over the years; this one moved me to the point that I had to write about it.

 

The hadis in question is stated as follows:

 

Making love bare (without a covering)

It is narrated that Muĥammad bin al-Ais asked Imām as-Ŝādiq (as): “Is it permissible to go near my wife naked (i.e. make love naked)?” Imām replied: “No, don’t do such a thing…”

 

This hadis appears on the well-known shia website: http://www.al-islam.org. On this web site, there is a book titled "From Marriage to Parenthood The Heavenly Path". This hadis is stated in the second chapter titled "Sexual Etiquette". Here is the link the relevant section:

 

http://www.al-islam.org/from-marriage-to-parenthood-heavenly-path-abbas-and-shaheen-merali/chapter-2-sexual-etiquette#makr%C5%ABh-discouraged-acts

 

The question here is not about the authenticity of the hadis; I think that any rational person can see the irrationality of making love without getting naked. The disturbing thing here is that this hiadis appears on http://www.al-islam.org, which is supposed to be a mainstream shia website, providing authentic knowledge.

Is there no refuge from these absurd ahadis? When truth is mixed with untruth and authentic is mixed with unauthentic in hadis books, then is there anything to be gained by studying or learning about hadis?

 

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Behind every hadith, there is context.

A local scholar can answer your question because not everybody knows the context behind certain narrations.

Though i have seen illogical narrations and statements on that website as well but who are we to say so.

And please dont say that the words of ahlulbayt are absurd. Respect does not exist in such a sentence, may Allah forgive us all.

Edited by PenOfTruth

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 
First and foremost, for future reference, it's better not to call ahadith "Absurd" seeing as this is kalam of the ma'sum (as), furthermore there's even a hadith regarding narrations which are difficult to understand:
 
محمد بن الحسين، عن وهيب بن حفص، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: حديثنا صعب مستصعب لا يؤمن به إلا ملك مقرب، أو نبي مرسل، أو مؤمن امتحن الله قلبه للإيمان، فما عرفت قلوبكم فخذوه، وما أنكرت فردوه إلينا
 
Muhammad ibn Al-Hussain, from Wuhayb ibn Hafs, from Abi Basir (ra), he said: Abu Ja'far (Al-Baqir (as)) said: "Our narrations are difficult (or complex) [and] become difficult. [And] No one believes in it (lit. by it) except a close angel, or a Prophet [and?] Messenger, or a believer [who has been] tested in his heart for faith by Allah. So whatever your hearts know, then accept it. And whatever [they] reject, then return it to us.
 
Bihar Al-Anwar 2/191 (taken from Basa'ir Al-Darajat). The hadith is mu'tabar (established/reliable) and is included in Al-Sahih Min Kitab Al-Basa'ir Al-Darajat.
 
Similarly, rejecting hadiths is a bad act in tashayyu as well, and even takes you out of the fold of wilayat.
 
As for this particular hadith, the Arabic of it goes:
 
محمد بن الحسن بإسناده، عن محمد بن العيص ، انه سأل أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) فقال: أجامع وانا عريان؟ فقال: لا، ولا مستقبل القبلة ولا تستدبرها
 
The reason why it's disliked to engage in coitus in the nude is explained in another Hadith, the angels don't enter the house in which a couple engages in coitus in the complete nude:

 

محمد بن علي بن الحسين في (العلل) عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن إدريس عن محمد بن أحمد، عن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن الحسين بن الحسن القزويني، عن سليمان بن جعفر البصري، عن عبد الله بن الحسين بن زيد العلوي، عن أبيه، عن جعفر بن محمد، عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) عن النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: إذا تجامع الرجل والمرأة فلا يتعريان فعل الحمارين فان الملائكة تخرج من بينهما إذا فعلا ذلك.
 
Wasa'il Al-Shi'ah (Aal Al-Bayt) 20/120/3
 
Also need to edit this point in, you're complaining about "truth being mixed with untruth", it's subjective whether this issue can be called a truth, and really unnecessary since the act can be done with a shirt at the least on. But the "authentic being mixed with the unauthentic" ergo there being no point studying hadiths, you realize there is a way to filter out "unauthentic", using chain criticism (ie. Ilm Al-Dirayah and Ilm Al-Rijal).
 
والسلام
Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

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My dear "PenOfTruth". Please don't take what I am saying personally, but your reply seems to be an example of a general contradiction or confusion in some people's thinking. It is that general contradiction and confusion that want to address here.

 

1. You said that "i have seen illogical narrations and statements on that website as well". It seems that you are acknowledging that the hadis mentioned previously is illogical.

 

2. But then you said "who is to say so" This seems to imply that you don’t find the hadis illogical.

 

I want to know your opinion? Is it illogical or not?

 

3. You said "please don’t say that the words of ahlulbayt are absurd". I said no such thing. I was questioning the hadis, not the ahl-ul-bait.

 

4. This leads me to my original point: do we, or do you, accept everything that is written in the books, no matter how absurd, to be from the ahl-ul-bait?

 

5. You mentioned "A local scholar can answer your question". The hadis I mentioned is not a rumour; it is stated in a booked written by a "scholar".

 

Now here is my soul searching argument. If you really, seriously, and honestly think that this hadis is, or might be, from the ahl-ul-bait, then this should affect your life as much as it affects mine. Then perhaps you should talk to a scholar to authenticate it or clarify its context and comeback here and enlighten the rest of us.

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Dear Ibn Al-Ja'abi, many thanks for your detailed and scholarly reply. However, my original question is still standing. Are we simply supposed to accept everything written in the hadis books as true? Are we not supposed to use reason? Are we condemned to remain in a state of confusion and fear when we read something that does not make sense? Or can we simply reject something when it does not make any sense?

 

To concretise my point, let's look at the hadis under discussion (Now I know that this is not the most civil of topics, so with due apologies). 

 

I have not heard of anyone who makes love with a shirt on, have you? If your answer is the same as mine then what does that say about the rationality of the hadis? should it not simply be rejected?

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Salamun Alaykum,

 

I have heard a hadith from the prophet (pbuh) that it is better to make love with your wife, while, you have something as a cover. But, in this hadith it was said that it is Mustahab, not Wajib to have a cover. We may not undrestand the "reason" behind this hadith, but we can guess what are the "benefits". Like, just imagine a wife and husband making love, then suddenly someone comes in... then... which one do you prefer?

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 
First and foremost, for future reference, it's better not to call ahadith "Absurd" seeing as this is kalam of the ma'sum (as), furthermore there's even a hadith regarding narrations which are difficult to understand:
 
محمد بن الحسين، عن وهيب بن حفص، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: حديثنا صعب مستصعب لا يؤمن به إلا ملك مقرب، أو نبي مرسل، أو مؤمن امتحن الله قلبه للإيمان، فما عرفت قلوبكم فخذوه، وما أنكرت فردوه إلينا
 
Muhammad ibn Al-Hussain, from Wuhayb ibn Hafs, from Abi Basir (ra), he said: Abu Ja'far (Al-Baqir (as)) said: "Our narrations are difficult (or complex) [and] become difficult. [And] No one believes in it (lit. by it) except a close angel, or a Prophet [and?] Messenger, or a believer [who has been] tested in his heart for faith by Allah. So whatever your hearts know, then accept it. And whatever [they] reject, then return it to us.
 
Bihar Al-Anwar 2/191 (taken from Basa'ir Al-Darajat). The hadith is mu'tabar (established/reliable) and is included in Al-Sahih Min Kitab Al-Basa'ir Al-Darajat.
 
Similarly, rejecting hadiths is a bad act in tashayyu as well, and even takes you out of the fold of wilayat.
 
As for this particular hadith, the Arabic of it goes:
 
محمد بن الحسن بإسناده، عن محمد بن العيص ، انه سأل أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) فقال: أجامع وانا عريان؟ فقال: لا، ولا مستقبل القبلة ولا تستدبرها
 
The reason why it's disliked to engage in coitus in the nude is explained in another Hadith, the angels don't enter the house in which a couple engages in coitus in the complete nude:

 

محمد بن علي بن الحسين في (العلل) عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن إدريس عن محمد بن أحمد، عن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن الحسين بن الحسن القزويني، عن سليمان بن جعفر البصري، عن عبد الله بن الحسين بن زيد العلوي، عن أبيه، عن جعفر بن محمد، عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) عن النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: إذا تجامع الرجل والمرأة فلا يتعريان فعل الحمارين فان الملائكة تخرج من بينهما إذا فعلا ذلك.
 
Wasa'il Al-Shi'ah (Aal Al-Bayt) 20/120/3
 
Also need to edit this point in, you're complaining about "truth being mixed with untruth", it's subjective whether this issue can be called a truth, and really unnecessary since the act can be done with a shirt at the least on. But the "authentic being mixed with the unauthentic" ergo there being no point studying hadiths, you realize there is a way to filter out "unauthentic", using chain criticism (ie. Ilm Al-Dirayah and Ilm Al-Rijal).
 
والسلام

 

Dear Ibn Al-Ja'abi, many thanks for your detailed and scholarly reply. And thank you "PenOfTruth" and Asmaa for your replies as well.

First a clarification, When I used the word "absurd", I did not use it to describe any statement from the Masoomeen; I used it to describe certain ahadis written in both sunni and shia books. Ahadis in the books might be authentic or they might not be. Most people (both sunni and shia) seem to have a presumption that everything written in their hadis books is authentic. It is this presumption that I take issue with. Allah might have guaranteed to preserve the Quran from alteration and mistakes, but did He make such a guarantee for hadis books? Have the Imams not said that "do not take any thing (to be) from us that contradicts the Quran and Sunnah"? It shows that people have ascribed false statements to the Masoomeen. Is it not possible for such statements to have found their way into our Hadis books?

Personally, I would expect the statements from the Masoomeen to be the most sensible, the most rational, the most logical, and the easiest to understand; not something that one has play mental gymnastics in order to justify or rationalize. For example, let's look at the hadis under discussion. Its logical problems are apparent when we consider the question of whether a husband and wife take a shower or bath together (coitus in water)? if the answer is yes, then should the husband have a shirt on during that process? and secondly, how many people do you know who makes love with a shirt on. If the answer is none, then what does that say about the rationality of the hadis?

If we acknowledge that the masoomeen would not say something irrational then should we not simply reject these irrational ahadis when we hear them? Or are we condemned to remain in a state of confusion and fear when we read something that does not make sense?

This leads me to my next point. If we accept that there may inauthentic and false statements ascribed to the masoomeen in our hadis books, then are we not contributing to perpetuating a lie when we defend every illogical thing written in our hadis books? For example, we regect and even make fun of our sunni brothers when they believe every illogical, irrational, and dare I say, absurd thing, simply because it is written in their hadis books; are we no better than them? Are we not supposed to use reason?

 

Wassalam.

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My dear "PenOfTruth". Please don't take what I am saying personally, but your reply seems to be an example of a general contradiction or confusion in some people's thinking. It is that general contradiction and confusion that want to address here.

1) You said that "i have seen illogical narrations and statements on that website as well". It seems that you are acknowledging that the hadis mentioned previously is illogical.

But then you said "who is to say so" This seems to imply that you don’t find the hadis illogical.

I want to know your opinion? Is it illogical or not?

3. You said "please don’t say that the words of ahlulbayt are absurd". I said no such thing. I was questioning the hadis, not the ahl-ul-bait.

4. This leads me to my original point: do we, or do you, accept everything that is written in the books, no matter how absurd, to be from the ahl-ul-bait?

5. You mentioned "A local scholar can answer your question". The hadis I mentioned is not a rumour; it is stated in a booked written by a "scholar".

Now here is my soul searching argument. If you really, seriously, and honestly think that this hadis is, or might be, from the ahl-ul-bait, then this should affect your life as much as it affects mine. Then perhaps you should talk to a scholar to authenticate it or clarify its context and comeback here and enlighten the rest of us.

1) i meant that i was referring to other things i have seen but that 'I' thought it was illogical but who am i to say that it is so. Just because i do not see the purpose or meaning behind it does not mean that i have the right and position to reject the hadith.

- My opinion is that of ahlulbayt.

3) when i say to you for example "what you say is absurd and not right" i am not respecting you, let alone when it has been said to ahlulbayt.

4) if it has authentic proof and evidence, yes we have to accept it. And i repeat, we do not have the knowledge of ahlulbayt in order to know the conext and meaning behind everything as we assume. Rarely you find hadiths that look like that to us and when we do, we say they are not right because our lack of knowledge does not allow us to understand it inside out.

inshallah khair.

Fee aman ilah.

Edited by PenOfTruth

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The (op) is right and this hadith is weak sanadan and very absurd matnan :

 

the hadith was narrated by mohamed ibn al-ees( correct name mohamed ibn al-fadhl) and "tareeq" sheikh sadooq to him is weak because of inconsistencies in the"tareeq" , al-khoei considered mohamed ibn al-ees majhool. he also weakened the sanad for different reasons to mine. Still I agree with sayed alkhoei that thishadith is weak sanadan 

 

As for the hadith posted by brother ibn al-ja'abi then it is also weak , i mean this one :

 

 
The reason why it's disliked to engage in coitus in the nude is explained in another Hadith, the angels don't enter the house in which a couple engages in coitus in the complete nude:

 

محمد بن علي بن الحسين في (العلل) عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن إدريس عن محمد بن أحمد، عن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن الحسين بن الحسن القزويني، عن سليمان بن جعفر البصري، عن عبد الله بن الحسين بن زيد العلوي، عن أبيه، عن جعفر بن محمد، عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) عن النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) قال: إذا تجامع الرجل والمرأة فلا يتعريان فعل الحمارين فان الملائكة تخرج من بينهما إذا فعلا ذلك.
 
Wasa'il Al-Shi'ah (Aal Al-Bayt) 20/120/3

 

 

ws


This is the kind of ridiculous Hadiths that were dumped into shia books and they don't make any sense.

Edited by mutazili(wasil)

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You have to understand the difference between tahreem (forbidding) and karahiyya (recommending against). The language of the hadith in the first post indicates that bare intercourse is disliked, not haraam. It is recommended for intercourse to take place beneath a blanket.

 

Bare intercourse is still allowed in Ja`fari fiqh, it is just not the preferred method. There could be several reasons for this. Seeing someone fully bare exposes everything, and this could make a person feel embarrassed, pressured, or appear less attractive. This is why a lot of people prefer having the lights off during sex. There's an Arabic saying, "darkness is the equalizer between all women". Another reason for this could be that it is easier for someone else to see the nakedness of a person if they are fully exposed. Couples will probably have sex hundreds of times in their marriage, and it's easier to forget to lock the door or close the blinds - not all doors have locks, and many kids walk into their parents' ... activity.

 

Our fiqh has a lot of sexual etiquette. It is mustahab to:

 

-Slow down and not rush relations

-Brush your teeth and chew pleasant-smelling things beforehand

-Make sure you smell pleasant

-For women to apply kohl around their eyes

-Foreplay

 

It is makrooh to:

 

-Anal intercourse, particularly without the woman's permission

-To wear a Qur'anic verse or dhikr of Allah during the act (rings, necklesses)

-To make love standing

-To make love completely bare

-To make love on a boat or in a building with no ceiling

-To do so in the presence of a child

-To do so when others can hear you

-To refuse

 

Some of these are obvious, some of them isn't. Allah knows what is best for us. It is important to not be embarrassed in asking fiqh questions in these areas, as Islam is a complete way of life. It is more important to be cautious of what you reject from the hadiths, just in case they really did come out of the lips of the Ahl al-Bayt (as).

Edited by Qa'im

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You have to understand the difference between tahreem (forbidding) and karahiyya (recommending against). The language of the hadith in the first post indicates that bare intercourse is disliked, not haraam. It is recommended for intercourse to take place beneath a blanket.

 

Bare intercourse is still allowed in Ja`fari fiqh, it is just not the preferred method. There could be several reasons for this. Seeing someone fully bare exposes everything, and this could make a person feel embarrassed, pressured, or appear less attractive. This is why a lot of people prefer having the lights off during sex.

I don't really agree with you. I think you are speculating too much to justify something that may not even be true. You should at least entertain the fact that this hadith could be wrong even if it matches your very high standard of accuracy for hadiths.

 

You also don't understand the act of sex or intimacy between the husband and wife. Spouses/couples love/like their partner and are attractive to them even if their partners don't meet the high standard of beauty. When people are having sex, they don't think about shyness, lights, blankets or anything else. The act itself makes your forget everything else in the world at least temporary.

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Sure, you may feel this way. Many people express that they feel pressured when the lights are on, but not everyone is the same. My overarching point here is that these hadiths are a part of a greater Islamic sexual etiquette. These are simple recommendations made by our imams, and the real reasons behind them are not known to us. Hadiths cannot be denied just because they go against our gut (or in this case, our dirty minds).

No one will be punished for making love nude, standing up, with the lights on. I only want you to see the bigger picture. And that is: fiqh is not based on the fallible wits of ShiaChatters.

Edited by Qa'im

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Salam,

 

Read proper duas before love making.  Then, there will be a blanket covering the couple so that Syaitans will not penetrate or participate in the love making.  Yes, we can't see the covering, but it is there. The Angels will bless the couple.

 

We shall not perform love making (even under the blanket, locked door, or in remotely possible place where others cannot see) without protecting ourselves from syaitans.  How many people do the love making without protection? And syaitans particpate with that acts and the child that will be born also affected spiritually.

 

Real mukmin will always protect their souls against syaitan through duas, during salat, sleep, eating...and love making.

 

"Ad-dua silatul Mukmin."...duas are weapons for mukmin.

 

If our veils are lifted, we can see all these.

Edited by layman

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