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In the Name of God بسم الله

Are These Popular Majlis E Aza Narrations True?

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Assalaam o Aleikum

There are certain beliefs zaakirs tend to recite in every other majlis I attend. I would like to know if there is, in fact, any truth to them. For now, I can think of two. I might add more later.

1. On the night of 10th Muharram, once the looting of the tents was over, and Bibi Zaynab was guarding them, Hazrat Ali came back to her, to give her some respite, and himself looked after the ladies and the Fourth Imam.

2. During every majlis (or at least the properly conducted ones), the Masoomeen themselves come to hear the zikr of the martyrs.

Can anyone help me figure out if there is any basis to these sayings?

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The first one is false from any meaningful historical point of view. I doubt there is a single report of that kind, even among the Safawid-era accounts, which tend to have all kinds of embellishments. As for the second, it is a popular belief, particularly in regard to Sayyida Fatima (I haven't really heard it so much about the Prophet and the Imams), but I'm not sure if it can be substantiated with any plausibly authentic narrations, and it would require you to believe that they are in thousands of places at once (which admittedly isn't an issue for those who believe that they have almost divine powers, but may be an issue for others).

Anyway, you hear enough dodgy stories even from proper scholars (on the basis that we don't need to worry too much about the historical authenticity of this kind of stuff, and the main thing is to get people to cry), let alone from zakirs (who's sole purpose is to whip crowds up into a frenzy), so I would take what they say with a bucket of salt.

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1-never heard it before

2- there seem to be no authentic Hadith about it.

Many of what recited in majalis ashura is from the poems that meant to make an imaginary scene, one of my fav Noha is one which starts with " messenger of Allah attended Karbala and was perplexed on who to weep more"

But with time, even scholars get confused . I remember a vid of syed kamal reciting a popular poem as imam Husain words, another scholar corrected him.

Some majalis owners choose the orators well, some are following the logic of twitter in gathering followers . Also, it is responsibility of attendants to encourage the majalis that aim to spread a proper message through the minbar.

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Thank you IbnSohan and Haydar Husayn. For some reason, I can't edit my original post, so I'm adding some questions in my next one.

The first belief, that Hazrat Ali came back on Ashura night, is verry common here. Speaking of poetry, IbnSohan, there's a moving and popular soz 'Zaynab ne kaha baap ke qadmo se lipat kar, ab aaey ho Baba'. I don't know if you speak Urdu, so roughly, that's 'Zaynab said, clinging to her father's feet, it's now that you come, Baba', and describes her recounting each tragic death, of her brothers, nephews and so on, and asking why he did not come then.

As for the Masoomeen attending these majaalis, Fatima is supposed to come and collect the tears of mourners... And Imam e Zamana is said to be there too.

Since you mention that noha as one of your favourites, do you feel it ok to support such salaams, marsiyas etc that base around beliefs that we don't subscribe to, on basis of their unfounded authenticity? This is a genuine question, as I find myself increasingly uncomfortable with attending majaalis where these are recited.

Oh, and I can't see that video

Haydar Husayn, what you say is true, but some of these zakirs are supposedly very well-read, so I can't help but wonder where they get this stuff from.

Some more questions:

3. On the way from Karbala to Syria, Bibi Zaynab could not find Bibi Sakina, and went looking for her in the desert. She eventually found her sleeping safely in the lap of a veiled lady, who turned out to be Bibi Fatima Zahra herself.

4. Bibi Fatima arrived at the battleground before the martyrdom of Hazrat Husayn... I hesitate to write this... to brush away the dust with her hair.....

5. I have another question, but instinctively know this is one of those explosive types, and while I couldn't find any threads about it, would appreciate it if someone could guide me if there has already been discussion about this.

The Noor, or Divine Light, of the the Last Prophet, Bibi Fatima, and the first three Imams, was created eons ago, before that of anything else in this world.

Edited by Koshaan
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I believe all the points you mentioned are true. Why does it matter anyway? It IS important to make people cry, and zakirs can use these stories. I don't understand why it's hard to believe any of them. Is it hard to believe that Prophet (A.S.) or Bibi Fatima (A.S.) or Imam Ali (A.S.) can be present at many places simultaneously or they could go to Karbala? We all believe that Shaitan is present with every human being, he is present at many places at the same time, so if shaitan has that much power, do you think Infallibles don't have that much power. 

About your last point, yes I believe that 14 Masoomeen (A.S.) were created before any other thing in the world. 

Edited by Mokhtar2012
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I believe all the points you mentioned are true. Why does it matter anyway? It IS important to make people cry, and zakirs can use these stories. I don't understand why it's hard to believe any of them. Is it hard to believe that Prophet (A.S.) or Bibi Fatima (A.S.) or Imam Ali (A.S.) can be present at many places simultaneously or they could go to Karbala? We all believe that Shaitan is present with every human being, he is present at many places at the same time, so if shaitan has that much power, do you think Infallibles don't have that much power.

About your last point, yes I believe that 14 Masoomeen (A.S.) were created before any other thing in the world.

I don't understand his kind of mentality. Why would you believe something that has no evidence to support it? You then open the door to believing absolutely anything, based on your desires. By the way, we don't all believe that Shaytan is present with every human being, but rather that Shaytan has other Shaytans working for him that are present with us.

As for the questions, probably the only one that could be backed up with narrations is the preexistence of the infallibles as noor, but even that could be interpreted in various ways. Some scholars also rejected this belief, but it does have narrations to back it up.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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Thank you IbnSohan and Haydar Husayn. For some reason, I can't edit my original post, so I'm adding some questions in my next one.

The first belief, that Hazrat Ali came back on Ashura night, is verry common here. Speaking of poetry, IbnSohan, there's a moving and popular soz 'Zaynab ne kaha baap ke qadmo se lipat kar, ab aaey ho Baba'. I don't know if you speak Urdu, so roughly, that's 'Zaynab said, clinging to her father's feet, it's now that you come, Baba', and describes her recounting each tragic death, of her brothers, nephews and so on, and asking why he did not come then.

As for the Masoomeen attending these majaalis, Fatima is supposed to come and collect the tears of mourners... And Imam e Zamana is said to be there too.

Since you mention that noha as one of your favourites, do you feel it ok to support such salaams, marsiyas etc that base around beliefs that we don't subscribe to, on basis of their unfounded authenticity? This is a genuine question, as I find myself increasingly uncomfortable with attending majaalis where these are recited.

Oh, and I can't see that video

Haydar Husayn, what you say is true, but some of these zakirs are supposedly very well-read, so I can't help but wonder where they get this stuff from.

Some more questions:

3. On the way from Karbala to Syria, Bibi Zaynab could not find Bibi Sakina, and went looking for her in the desert. She eventually found her sleeping safely in the lap of a veiled lady, who turned out to be Bibi Fatima Zahra herself.

4. Bibi Fatima arrived at the battleground before the martyrdom of Hazrat Husayn... I hesitate to write this... to brush away the dust with her hair.....

5. I have another question, but instinctively know this is one of those explosive types, and while I couldn't find any threads about it, would appreciate it if someone could guide me if there has already been discussion about this.

The Noor, or Divine Light, of the the Last Prophet, Bibi Fatima, and the first three Imams, was created eons ago, before that of anything else in this world.

These are not believe (unless you think so) for me, they are poetry . In the example I presented, the case of our prophet attending Karbala was metaphorical and this was evident from the way the poem was written, it was like if we said" what if our prophet came alive today, would he be happy?"

I do not attend majalis where wrong beliefs are supported but then I should know for myself what's correct and what's not correct. I attend majalis of learned men, with orators who quoted from our original sources with proper understanding of what they say.

About your last question, it can be backed by Quran and Hadith but you should study that yourself to make your own conclusion

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Assalaam o Aleikum

There are certain beliefs zaakirs tend to recite in every other majlis I attend. I would like to know if there is, in fact, any truth to them. For now, I can think of two. I might add more later.

1. On the night of 10th Muharram, once the looting of the tents was over, and Bibi Zaynab was guarding them, Hazrat Ali came back to her, to give her some respite, and himself looked after the ladies and the Fourth Imam.

2. During every majlis (or at least the properly conducted ones), the Masoomeen themselves come to hear the zikr of the martyrs.

Can anyone help me figure out if there is any basis to these sayings?

 

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

Have never read those any thing on those two points, I will try to see if I can find something on this. But yes both of these are possible as there are narrations speaking of Imam's (as) being seen in this world after their passing away.

 

حدثنا معاوية بن حكيم عن الحسين بن على الوشا عن ابى الحسن الرضا عليه السلام قال قال لى بخراسان رايت  رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله هيهنا والتزمته.

It has been narrated to us from Muawiya Bin Hakeem, from Al-Husayn Bin Ali Al-Washa, who has said: 

Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (as) said to me in Khurasan, "I saw the Messenger of Allah (saww) over here and offered my (salam) to Him." 

[source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 6, Chapter. 5, Hadees.1] 

Hadees is Authentic (Saheeh) as per chain of narrators.

 

You can see more narrations here: http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-as-don-t-die

Edited by muhibb-ali
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  • Advanced Member

(bismillah)

(salam)

Have never read those any thing on those two points, I will try to see if I can find something on this. But yes both of these are possible as there are narrations speaking of Imam's (as) being seen in this world after their passing away.

حدثنامعاويةبنحكيمعنالحسينبنعلىالوشاعنابىالحسنالرضاعليهالسلامقالقاللىبخراسانرايترسولاللهصلىاللهعليهوآلههيهناوالتزمته.

It has been narrated to us from Muawiya Bin Hakeem, from Al-Husayn Bin Ali Al-Washa, who has said:

Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (as) said to me in Khurasan, "I saw the Messenger of Allah (saww) over here and offered my (salam) to Him."

[source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 6, Chapter. 5, Hadees.1]

Hadees is Authentic (Saheeh) as per chain of narrators.

You can see more narrations here: http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-as-don-t-die

The Hadith says: I saw the prophet here I this spot ( hai Huna) so I settled here ( rough translation) there is no Salam in the Hadith.

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I don't understand his kind of mentality. Why would you believe something that has no evidence to support it? You then open the door to believing absolutely anything, based on your desires. By the way, we don't all believe that Shaytan is present with every human being, but rather that Shaytan has other Shaytans working for him that are present with us.

As for the questions, probably the only one that could be backed up with narrations is the preexistence of the infallibles as noor, but even that could be interpreted in various ways. Some scholars also rejected this belief, but it does have narrations to back it up.

All these stories during masaaib and fazaail are meant to increase our love for Ahl-e-bait (A.S.). We cannot really understand Their (A.S.) status, that's why Their (A.S.) fazaail make people confused. Ahl-e-bait (A.S.)'s love is a very precious thing (all your good deeds will not be accepted if you don't have Ahl-e-bait (A.S.)'s love in your heart) and it's not easy to keep this love alive. This is the purpose of majalis, to keep Their (A.S.) love alive. And this is why people (I don't mean the OP) try to create doubts about Their (A.S.) status. I am talking from personal experience that sometimes when I am going through hard time (because of my sins), and there's a majlis at my imam bargah. I go there, I cry and after that my life becomes better. It's a proof that Allah forgives our sins due to tears we shed in majalis. I had doubts about sincerity and methods used by one scholar and in one majlis, he said, "It's not easy to make people cry, you cannot do it by using tactics, you can only do it if you have Syeda Fatima (A.S.)'s prayers supporting you". 

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All these stories during masaaib and fazaail are meant to increase our love for Ahl-e-bait (A.S.). We cannot really understand Their (A.S.) status, that's why Their (A.S.) fazaail make people confused. Ahl-e-bait (A.S.)'s love is a very precious thing (all your good deeds will not be accepted if you don't have Ahl-e-bait (A.S.)'s love in your heart) and it's not easy to keep this love alive. This is the purpose of majalis, to keep Their (A.S.) love alive. And this is why people (I don't mean the OP) try to create doubts about Their (A.S.) status. I am talking from personal experience that sometimes when I am going through hard time (because of my sins), and there's a majlis at my imam bargah. I go there, I cry and after that my life becomes better. It's a proof that Allah forgives our sins due to tears we shed in majalis. I had doubts about sincerity and methods used by one scholar and in one majlis, he said, "It's not easy to make people cry, you cannot do it by using tactics, you can only do it if you have Syeda Fatima (A.S.)'s prayers supporting you". 

 

So people need to be told lies in order to keep the love of the Ahlulbayt alive in their hearts?

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If a man made up a story about our prophet in which he claimed that our prophet talked to the rock in Jerusalem or the black stone , and he forged a whole made up story about it. He mixed some truth to his fabrications telling some true hadiths about how trees and rocks greeted our prophet . Let's assume that those around him liked the story of a man talking to a rock, let's say it was an era where humans could communicate with less live creatures.

Now if another man stood up against this fabrication, he told people that prophet did not talked to that rock, the incident did not happen and the conversation is made up. Let's assume that people went emotional accusing the latter man of being disbeliever in our prophet miracles.

Dose this story ring a bell in your brains? No?

Let's assume that our prophet came back to life and heard people making up stories about him and forging hadiths that he never said, do you reckon our prophet will consider that a sign of love? You don't know?

We'll let me tell you that in history a likeness of this incident happened, prophet once went on pulpit after hearing some sahaba forging hadiths claiming that he said them, he gathered people and warned them " whoever forged a Hadith deliberately ( claiming that I said it) then he has reserved his seat in hell"

Our imams words are our prophet words, the rules applied on our prophet hadiths are applied on our imams hadiths

Now should we support what we like or should we support what our prophet like? Also, our imams would love us to love them and love us to love them by following them, imam Sadiq said that the way to make people follow us ahlulbayt is by delivering to them our own words but sadly people add and omit from our words.

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^ I am surprised, do you really think it's a made up story? Quran talks about many miracles of Prophets and our Prophet (p.b.u.H.) is the best Prophet (A.S.). So why is it so hard to believe that He (A.S.) could show such miracles. The mention of these miracles helps to increase people's love for Ahl-e-bait (A.S.), especially when you consider that They (A.S.) showed so much patience and went through so much difficulties despite having so much powers. 

When zakir say such things in majalis, they are not forging hadiths. It is like poetry, I highly doubt they are leading people astray with these things. I guess my point is that when you are hearing masaaib, try to feel the pain instead of worrying about whether each and every sentence is true. Focusing too much on shariat can lead to a dangerous path. When Imam Mehdi (A.S.) comes back, I think one challenge will be to let go of our ideas of right and wrong and follow Him (A.S.). There were people in Imam Ali (A.S.) time (I believe they were khawarij) and also with Imam Hassan (A.S.) (when He (A.S.) did sulah with Muawiyah) who thought that Imam (A.S.) was not doing the right thing, so they refused to obey Him (A.S.). They didn't disobey Imam (A.S.) for any worldly gain but they did it because of their ego. It is also important to increase Their (A.S.) love, because it will be easier for people to follow Them (A.S.) if people love Them (A.S.)

We don't need Prophet (A.S.) or any of the Imams (A.S.) to come to us and show us the miracles. We can see Their (A.S.) miracles when we go to majlis or go for ziaraat. I believe miracles happen to everyone there. 

Edited by Mokhtar2012
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^ I am surprised, do you really think it's a made up story? Quran talks about many miracles of Prophets and our Prophet (p.b.u.H.) is the best Prophet (A.S.). So why is it so hard to believe that He (A.S.) could show such miracles. The mention of these miracles helps to increase people's love for Ahl-e-bait (A.S.), especially when you consider that They (A.S.) showed so much patience and went through so much difficulties despite having so much powers.

When zakir say such things in majalis, they are not forging hadiths. It is like poetry, I highly doubt they are leading people astray with these things. I guess my point is that when you are hearing masaaib, try to feel the pain instead of worrying about whether each and every sentence is true. Focusing too much on shariat can lead to a dangerous path. When Imam Mehdi (A.S.) comes back, I think one challenge will be to let go of our ideas of right and wrong and follow Him (A.S.). There were people in Imam Ali (A.S.) time (I believe they were khawarij) and also with Imam Hassan (A.S.) (when He (A.S.) did sulah with Muawiyah) who thought that Imam (A.S.) was not doing the right thing, so they refused to obey Him (A.S.). They didn't disobey Imam (A.S.) for any worldly gain but they did it because of their ego. It is also important to increase Their (A.S.) love, because it will be easier for people to follow Them (A.S.) if people love Them (A.S.)

We don't need Prophet (A.S.) or any of the Imams (A.S.) to come to us and show us the miracles. We can see Their (A.S.) miracles when we go to majlis or go for ziaraat. I believe miracles happen to everyone there.

The problem I have with this is the assumption that love can only come with hyperbolized accounts of history and I simply cannot accept this. The imams don't need help from the alims to get people to love them. We don't need to come up with mythical like stories just to get the masses to fall in love with the imams.

Granted, poetry is different and there is an element in all poetry where similitude and metaphors are used to highlight elements of love and courage etc... So I don't have an issue with noha's and marshia's that stretch the truth for the poetic effect. But once you start the actual majlis, it should all be based on facts. Let's not forget that everything is now available on you tube so mythical stories that's aren't true don't do the shia cause any good.

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Moharram again, and some queries again...

Recently an alim was asked about any sources for the story of Hazrat Sakina being cared for by Hazrat Fatima on the way to Syria. He, surprisingly, was not very receptive, and based his answer on whether the Lady's coming back after her death is possible or not. (His reply to that was, it is indeed possible. He based that on the Quranic ayah about shuhada being alive, and inferring that the Masoomeen must definitely be alive, able to visit us, etc. I would love any input on this, but perhaps in another thread.)

Anyway, my question is, what does one tell a person narrating an inauthentic (though not necessarily incorrect) rivaayat? Saying that the two (possibility and actual occurrence) are two different things that should not be confused, apparently does not cut it with many. For those satisfied with ahadith of the Masoomeen, are there any (beyond obvious ones about telling the truth) that might make them consider the wisdom of telling accounts with no known historical basis? And for the record, does anyone know where this particular started out?

Thanks

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Moharram again, and some queries again...

Recently an alim was asked about any sources for the story of Hazrat Sakina being cared for by Hazrat Fatima on the way to Syria. He, surprisingly, was not very receptive, and based his answer on whether the Lady's coming back after her death is possible or not. (His reply to that was, it is indeed possible. He based that on the Quranic ayah about shuhada being alive, and inferring that the Masoomeen must definitely be alive, able to visit us, etc. I would love any input on this, but perhaps in another thread.)

It's not surprising that he wasn't very receptive. Such people don't like to be questioned about things they can't back up. And yes, trying to justify made up stories by saying that it 'could have' happened, is absurd. I don't think there is much you can do about this though, as long as the vast majority as willing to accept it.

With regards to the possibility of it even occurring, just a little thought would tell us that it doesn't make sense. Why would Sayyida Fatima cry so much for her father if he could have appeared to her at any moment? Or Imam Zayn al-Abideen with regards to his father?

Being in some sense alive (which is clearly not in the same sense as we are) doesn't imply that you suddenly acquire the ability to go wherever you want, whenever you want, hear whatever you want, etc. obviously that verse doesn't in any way imply all these things. And if anyone wants to claim that it does, then they should quote a reputable tafsir based on the words of the Imams.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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Haydar Husayn, I was being overly optimistic, hoping that there would some hadith forbidding such stuff outright. Wishful thinking on my part:)

As far as the bit goes about the kind of 'alive' that the Masoomeen are, do we have any related threads? I've often wondered about what exactly is meant by 3:138-142. Yes, I've heard those stories of fresh blood running out if a martyr's body is hurt, ages after his bodily demise, but that still puts their 'alive-ness' in a paradigm different from our own, doesn't it?

6. Based on my original post, here's one more thing I'd like to ask about. To be honest, this is not something we hear commonly; it was just one scholar here who used to say this,I know not whether he just believed so himself, or because he based it on some concrete proof. He believed that on 10th Moharam, after the ladies of the Imam's family were looted, they did not become bare-headed. As they wore several layers of chadors etc, the uppermost coverings were taken away, but their hair etc did not get exposed. According to this person, had the sitar of these exalted ladies been seen by ordinary men, there would have been something close to apocalypse as a result.

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Q7. Did the noble head of Imam Husain recite the Qur'an on the spear? I personally have no problem with this, rather, I do believe it. I would like to know whether this is true, though.

8. Did the head of Hazrat Abbas repeatedly leave the spear it was mounted on, seeing the women without their veils?

9. Is the story of Shireen, Hazrat Shehrbano's kaneez, getting her wish of hosting Imam Husain at her house, but only after his martyrdom true?

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Wow... Let me get this clearly though. The only original, reliable retelling of the events of Karbala are by Abu Mikhnaf, right, or are there any others too? If I'm not wrong, there was a big gap between this historian, and the battle of Karbala. Who did he source his narrative from?

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Wow... Let me get this clearly though. The only original, reliable retelling of the events of Karbala are by Abu Mikhnaf, right, or are there any others too? If I'm not wrong, there was a big gap between this historian, and the battle of Karbala. Who did he source his narrative from?

Abu Mikhnaf was a lot closer to the events than the other historians that have written about it. Witnesses to the events were still alive during his lifetime. Compare that to someone writing in the 17th century, where many of the popular stories were first written.

Other good sources of information would be reliable hadiths from the Imams.

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Speaking of the Imams, many people cite the various references in Ziaarat e Naahiya, as proof of, say, Hazrat Qasim's body being dismembered, or of Hazrat Abbas' arms being separated from his body. I'm curious how much credence you lay by these accounts.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you could take a look at the link I gave, which discusses the Quranic sura that Imam Husain recited from the spear. I think Jondab Azdi gives some references there; I know zilch about this stuff, if you have the time, please check it out. Thanks

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Zakirs' telling of history is extremely inaccurate. Most of the time the dialogue (Imam said, "..." and then xyz said, "...") they narrate is non-existent, just totally made up, like historical fiction, to tell the essence of the story. Some fabrications are simply outrageous. I don't want to repeat them here. But these and other stories have crept into majalis discourse due to regular use and gradual general acceptance. If scholars and learned people were willing to call a spade a spade we'd never see such liberties taken with history and belief. But I think people are willing to let go of one another's errors of imaginations in the name of azadari.

Edited by Marbles
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You're right, Marbles, but I do think that as listeners, and even more so, if we are responsible for organizing majaalis e Husain, at our places or elsewhere, we have a responsibility too. Most of us don't know much, I know I don't, but when we do discover something, it seems wrong to let zakirs keep on reciting the same incorrect narrations.

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