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humanbeing101

Not A Sin To Call Others Beside God?

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We are asking Allah through hussain

Evidence? That the prphet and the ahlulbayt were the first creation of Allah, who better to ask through. Common sense.

and in the quran adam (as) ask Allah through names for forgivness.

Wasalam.

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:rolleyes:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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:rolleyes:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

 

Some people claim that asking for help to other than god is polytheism. Such people should never go to doctor when they becomes sick because this is polytheism (shirk)! Their going to doctor is a type of seeking a help from a specialist even though they do not say by their tongue that they are getting help from the doctor. Acting shirk is enough.

 

Also they should not ask any question from anyone or request anything from any one because all these are shirk. Furthermore, they shouldn’t eat any food because they should not help themselves by any other than God!

 

If they say that we do all these because Allah told us to do so, then based on their own doctrine Allah is also polytheist (Mushrik). Na’udhu Billah! Here is what they are missing: If we get help from any body, we do it with the understanding that he by his own can not help us. He can not benefit us unless Allah wishes to.

 

If one calls Prophet Muhammad (S) or Imam ‘Ali (as) for help, he is, in fact, calling Allah for help through intermediary of the Prophet or the Imams, and he does that with the understanding that the Prophet or the Imams doe not have any independent power, but rather what they have (which many others lack) is that they have credit in front of Allah and that Allah does not put down their requests if they pray to Allah on my behalf. Imam ‘Ali and all the martyrs are alive as Qur’an clearly testifies, though they are not on the earth. So please do not treat them as dead. Allah states in Qur’an:

Think not of those who are martyred in the way of Allah as dead. Nay! They are living, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”(Qur’an 3:169)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Read the previous verse brother. Their issue was they were lieing to Allah and holding those statues as gods.

 

[shakir 10:17] Who is then more unjust than who forges a lie against Allah or (who) gives the lie to His communications? Surely the guilty shall not be successful.

 

 

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 10:18]

To pretend that there are other powers than Allah is to invent lies. The idolaters shut their eyes to the goodness and glory of Allah, and go after false gods, and say by way of excuse that their (false) gods will intercede for them and save them from eternal punishment on the day of judgment. Even the noblest cannot intercede as a right, but only with His permission. See commentary of al Baqarah: 48.

 

 

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

 

This verse also shows they were lying and holding those that which Allah had not prescribed as guardians. We can see our imams and prophets are our guardians shown in this verse:

 

^^^^^^^^Verse 55 of al Ma-idah says:

Verily, your guardian is Allah and His messenger and those who believe and establish the prayer, and give the poor-rate while they are (in the state of ruku) bowing down.

Edited by PureEthics

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No one called anyone a polytheist.

Me asking the Prophet [sawa] to make Du'a for me or asking him for direct help when he is in my presence is a little different than making Du'a to him after he left this world. Why wasn't the Prophet teaching the Companions to make Du'a to Jesus [a] or John the Baptise [a]? How come he didn't tell them to use previous prophets as intermediaries with Allah? Or better still, why didn't he say we can make du'a to him after he has left this world?

Keep in mind there is no guarantee Allah will answer their [as] Du'a either. Prophet Noah [a] prayed for his son to be saved and guided and Allah didn't grant it.

Also, no one said they were 'dead'. You're making too many assumptions.

It's just a shame you have no explicit proof for this. Last time I checked, unless I am mistaken, our beliefs are sourced from the Qur'an and Tatawur narrations. The fact there is not even a single Sahih Hadith yet alone this reaching the level of Mutawattir suggests the Imams didn't teach this.

If it could be proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the Imams actually taught this then I'd have no issues with it. The fact that they didn't suggests it might not be as important as you make it out to be.

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No one called anyone a polytheist.

Me asking the Prophet [sawa] to make Du'a for me or asking him for direct help when he is in my presence is a little different than making Du'a to him after he left this world. Why wasn't the Prophet teaching the Companions to make Du'a to Jesus [a] or John the Baptise [a]? How come he didn't tell them to use previous prophets as intermediaries with Allah? Or better still, why didn't he say we can make du'a to him after he has left this world?

Keep in mind there is no guarantee Allah will answer their [as] Du'a either. Prophet Noah [a] prayed for his son to be saved and guided and Allah didn't grant it.

Also, no one said they were 'dead'. You're making too many assumptions.

It's just a shame you have no explicit proof for this. Last time I checked, unless I am mistaken, our beliefs are sourced from the Qur'an and Tatawur narrations. The fact there is not even a single Sahih Hadith yet alone this reaching the level of Mutawattir suggests the Imams didn't teach this.

If it could be proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the Imams actually taught this then I'd have no issues with it. The fact that they didn't suggests it might not be as important as you make it out to be.

 

Ill disregard the fact that your ignoring my post and the points. Ill make it short, do not bring the "evidence" excuse because I can destroy all your actions you have commited to disobedience and sin since 99% of them arnt supported by hadith and quran. Its futile. Just because it isnt in the quran and hadith doesnt make it haram, although, there is clear evidence tawassul is evident and allowed. You can ignore this fact and evidence, but you have no choice but to call me a polytheist, and if you are deemed wrong, well, lets just say your position will end up being worse...

 

Also, how can Allah be punishing me when he didnt make tawassul evident to shirk clear enough? Why isnt there one verse or hadith saying dont call on prophets or imams oh muslims? Ill tell you why, because we are only doing that which Allah will's.

 

 

--------

--------

For sunnis from tirmizi:

 

3. Uthman bin Hanif says: A blind person came over to the Prophet (pbuh) and said, “Pray to God to cure my illness.”

The Holy Prophet said, “If you wait, it would be better. And if you want me to ask God to cure you, then I will do so.”

“Ask God to cure me,” said the man.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) ordered him to make wudhu and pray to God to recite the following dua (supplication):

«اللهم إنی أسألک و أتوجّه الیک بنبیّک محمّد، نبّی الرحمة، یا محمّد انّنی توجّهت بک إلی ربّی فی حاجتی لیقضیها لی، اللهم شفعه»

“O’ Allah, I ask you for the sake of Your Messenger, the Messenger of mercy and forgiveness, oh Mohammad I am turning to you in the presence of God to fulfill my wish and O’ God, make Mohammad my intercessor.”[6]

Edited by PureEthics

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^... I don't take my religion from Sunni sources. I find it odd that we had 12 Imams to teach us the Religion of the Prophet and we are turning to Ahaddith in other sects works?

I don't have a problem with Tawassul. All Muslims (minus perhaps Salafi's) believe in it's permissibility.

Tawassul = Bi Haqqi Muhammad wa aali Muhammad.

What I have an issue with is you smashing Tawassul & Istigatha together and presenting it as 'Tawassul' when it's not.

I'll take leave from this discussion. It's proven time and time again to a circular one. I am in the midst of discussing this matter with my teacher. I'll revisit this matter in two weeks time, Señor PureEthics :P

Who knows, perhaps I may change my views.

Ma'salamaa

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Salaam Ali Musa do u have an issue with this salaam at the end of Our namaz "asalamu alayka ayuha annabiyu" that is salaam upon you prophet. Directly talking to the prophet (sawa) therefore the whole Only asking when he was here on earth goes down the Drain.

And of course here is the proof first I should mention that weak hadith are not used for wajib or mustahab acts so when Ayatollah sistani says it is mustahab it means a strong proof exist."1114. While a person sits after reciting tashahhud in the last Rak'at, and his body is tranquil, it is Mustahab to say: Assalamu 'alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

Then he should say: Assalamu Alaykum and as a recommended precaution add to it Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh. Alternatively, he can say: Assalamu Alayna Wa Ala Ibadi llahis Salihin. But if he recites this Salam, then as per obligatory precaution, he must follow it up with saying: Assalamu Alaykum." so the hearing after death is established. Now what is wrong with asking someone to do tawwasul to Allah for you.

Edited by Maitham

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Again that which I mentioned is directly talking to the prophet (sawa) as the ka means thee. and for Muslims all over the world. Who is your teacher if I may ask?

Sending Salam on the Messenger [sawa] is not the same as making Du'a to him bro.

We have Ahadith which say the Messenger replies to the salams given to him at his grave. I havnt seen any which says he will answer our Du'a, though.

and Allah answers doa the intermediate would be someone who ask Allah not fulfilling as fulfilling would be shirk. Unless by the will of Allah. Edited by Maitham

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Thanks for the reply and for the hadiths you have provided. I can understand intercession, me personally I never make a dua to God through the Prophets or Imams. But my point and question is: Is not much better to establish a direct relationship with God(SWT) instead of through the Imams or Prophets? To me it just doesn't make sense, since I would not pray to the creator's creation but rather the creation himself.

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We are suppose to ask Allah tawwasul means asking someone to ask Allah so it is not useing them as the only way to reach Allah rather it is an addition of prayers to Allah for us. Like how we ask others to make doa for us.

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I think the confusion comes from how we word our arguments here. Making dua to a person is different from making dua through a person. The second is tawassul, and I think a lot of people, when they say Ya Ali (as) Madad, regard it as tawassul. No one prays to Mawla Ali (as) as if he were God, which would be shirk.

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What always gets me is how the pro-tawassul crowd 'innocently' start their defence by saying" we aren't asking the Imams, we are asking through them", as in, the meaning of the dua is "Ya Ali, please ask Allah on my behalf". The fact of the matter is though that they believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask the Imams to help them through their own power. Now, perhaps there are some misguided souls out have been taken in by the aforementioned trick, and are just mindlessly repeating it, but I think the majority of educated people who use this argument are just being dishonest. What they want is to convince you bit by bit, and they know that if they just comes straight out with their beliefs, then it will scare too many people off.

Let's make this perfectly clear. The major scholars who believe you can call in the Imams for help also believe the Imams can help you through their own power, and dont need to ask Allah. Of course, they will say that the power of the Imams comes from Allah (which to them makes it ok), but they don't believe that the Imams are limited to simply making dua on your behalf. So rather than playing games, I wish people would straight out defend that position rather than pretending like they just want the Imams to pray for them on their behalf.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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What always gets me is how the pro-tawassul crowd 'innocently' start their defence by saying" we aren't asking the Imams, we are asking through them", as in, the meaning of the dua is "Ya Ali, please ask Allah on my behalf". The fact of the matter is though that they believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask the Imams to help them through their own power. Now, perhaps there are some misguided souls out have been taken in by the aforementioned trick, and are just mindlessly repeating it, but I think the majority of educated people who use this argument are just being dishonest. What they want is to convince you bit by bit, and they know that if they just comes straight out with their beliefs, then it will scare too many people off.

Let's make this perfectly clear. The major scholars who believe you can call in the Imams for help also believe the Imams can help you through their own power, and dont need to ask Allah. Of course, they will say that the power of the Imams comes from Allah (which to them makes it ok), but they don't believe that the Imams are limited to simply making dua on your behalf. So rather than playing games, I wish people would straight out defend that position rather than pretending like they just want the Imams to pray for them on their behalf.

Way to accuse us, our scholars, our marja of lying and shirk. You don't know what our intentions are so please don't spew nonsense. We constantly say, they DON'T have their own power, that would be illogical and contradictory. How about this, if anyone does what you say may Allah punish them, otherwise may Allah punish you for attributing falsehood. Deal?

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Way to accuse us, our scholars, our marja of lying and shirk. You don't know what our intentions are so please don't spew nonsense. We constantly say, they DON'T have their own power, that would be illogical and contradictory. How about this, if anyone does what you say may Allah punish them, otherwise may Allah punish you for attributing falsehood. Deal?

It all depends on what you mean by 'their own power' though, doesn't it? Clearly you believe they have the power to make dua for you, at the very least. I don't think you are claiming they need to ask Allah before they can make dua for you, are you? Now, do they have the power to raise someone from the dead, without asking Allah? Do they have the power to grant someone a child, without asking Allah to do it?

Obviously, I know nobody claims they have some power that is independent of Allah (because that would be clear cut shirk, and nobody is dumb enough to say that), in the sense that any power they have is given to them by Allah, but people do believe that Allah has given them powers that they can use without having to constantly ask Allah for permission to ask them. And hence, people do make duas directly to them.

I think the confusion comes from how we word our arguments here. Making dua to a person is different from making dua through a person. The second is tawassul, and I think a lot of people, when they say Ya Ali (as) Madad, regard it as tawassul. No one prays to Mawla Ali (as) as if he were God, which would be shirk.

No, but they do pray to him as if he were an all-hearing, all-seeing, all-knowing (for all practical purposes), near all-powerful being, who is capable of granting their wishes.

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What always gets me is how the pro-tawassul crowd 'innocently' start their defence by saying" we aren't asking the Imams, we are asking through them",

The what?

That is about 90% or more of the Shia Ulama(even Sayed Fadlullah(RA) didn't prohibit to ask directly not to mention indirectly, if that is your favorite.) and more than 50% of Sunni Ulama. But maybe you find on online English Hadeeth collections some Ahadeeth against.

Edited by Shiabro

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It all depends on what you mean by 'their own power' though, doesn't it? Clearly you believe they have the power to make dua for you, at the very least. I don't think you are claiming they need to ask Allah before they can make dua for you, are you? Now, do they have the power to raise someone from the dead, without asking Allah? Do they have the power to grant someone a child, without asking Allah to do it?

Obviously, I know nobody claims they have some power that is independent of Allah (because that would be clear cut shirk, and nobody is dumb enough to say that), in the sense that any power they have is given to them by Allah, but people do believe that Allah has given them powers that they can use without having to constantly ask Allah for permission to ask them. And hence, people do make duas directly to them.

No, but they do pray to him as if he were an all-hearing, all-seeing, all-knowing (for all practical purposes), near all-powerful being, who is capable of granting their wishes.

 

Of course they have the power to make dua, they are alive. Besides, we have the power to dua for each other, why wouldnt imams? You have been arguing against tawassul for quite some time now on Shiachat yet you still dont understand it o_O.... Why would they ask Allah if they can dua for us? That doesnt make any sense at all. Do you ask Allah if you can dua for your family? When dua-ing directly or non-directly to imams, either way, it is Allah, and Allah only, that gets to decide to grant it. What does anything besides intercession have to do with this discussion? DId Jesus A.S ask Allah everytime he brought the dead to life, or was this "power" given to him by Allah? To make it short, everything thing is by Allah's will. Clearly, when people ask our prophets and imams to grant them a child, they dont mean them to have this ability, except to ask through them from Allah. You realize even when someone calls on a imam or prophet directly, they still use intercession. Just as we go to doctors directly, clearly we acknowledge their ability from Allah, otherwise we would all be doing shirk. We dont say, " Hey docotor Im using you as a means to get cured by Allah's help", that would be just stupid. Just as we dont commit shirk by relying on our legs to walk instead of Allah...

 

Your whole post implied that we, the ulema, and marja believe the imams have independent powers :wacko: now your saying thats not what you meant????? sure..

Once again your so quick to judge peoples thoughts and intentions. Bro let me just say, please stop, go understand this idea before making false assumptions and commiting sins...

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Of course they have the power to make dua, they are alive. Besides, we have the power to dua for each other, why wouldnt imams? You have been arguing against tawassul for quite some time now on Shiachat yet you still dont understand it o_O.... Why would they ask Allah if they can dua for us? That doesnt make any sense at all. Do you ask Allah if you can dua for your family? When dua-ing directly or non-directly to imams, either way, it is Allah, and Allah only, that gets to decide to grant it. What does anything besides intercession have to do with this discussion? DId Jesus A.S ask Allah everytime he brought the dead to life, or was this "power" given to him by Allah? To make it short, everything thing is by Allah's will. Clearly, when people ask our prophets and imams to grant them a child, they dont mean them to have this ability, except to ask through them from Allah. You realize even when someone calls on a imam or prophet directly, they still use intercession. Just as we go to doctors directly, clearly we acknowledge their ability from Allah, otherwise we would all be doing shirk. We dont say, " Hey docotor Im using you as a means to get cured by Allah's help", that would be just stupid. Just as we dont commit shirk by relying on our legs to walk instead of Allah...

 

Your whole post implied that we, the ulema, and marja believe the imams have independent powers :wacko: now your saying thats not what you meant????? sure..

Once again your so quick to judge peoples thoughts and intentions. Bro let me just say, please stop, go understand this idea before making false assumptions and commiting sins...

I'm not sure your reading comprehension is up to this discussion (or perhaps you are just purposely avoiding the point), since you think I implied anyone believes the Imams have independent powers, so I'll just leave it.

The what?

That is about 90% or more of the Shia Ulama(even Sayed Fadlullah(RA) didn't prohibit to ask directly not to mention indirectly, if that is your favorite.) and more than 50% of Sunni Ulama. But maybe you find on online English Hadeeth collections some Ahadeeth against.

Tawassul in the sense that it is commonly used here. I doubt 50% of Sunni Ulama believe it is ok to call on the Prophet (pbuh) to grant them a child. Asking Allah to grant you a child for the sake of the Prophet (pbuh) isn't quite the same thing.

As for Sayyid Fadlallah's beliefs, what you say doesn't seem to match up with the following:

Q: What is the ruling on those who say for example: “Ya Ali” whenever they want to lift heavy objects? Is this considered an act of polytheism because one seeks the help of the Holy persons or Ahlelbeit rather than seeking it from Allah? 11/29/2006 1:24:45 PM

A: The pious person ought to abide by the Islamic instructions of the Quran and Sunna. Thus, he has to ask only for Allah’s help in conformity with Surat Al-Fatiha: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

Q: Is it permissible to supplicate and pray to the Imams with the intention that they are the means to Allah? If the answer is no, what is your opinion regarding this matter and what do you think about this Aya: {and seek mean of nearness to Allah}? 11/28/2006 1:02:30 PM

A: The supplication must be only addressed to Allah (The most Exalted) and this is what traditions of the Imams (a.s) have said. The Ayah refers to the means that guide to Allah and the Imams (a.s) are the guides to Allah because they know Allah, His religion and His message. Therefore, this Ayah does not mean that we have to address the supplication to the Imams and not to Allah (The Most Exalted).

Q: If I can ask Allah (The Most Exalted) and Imam Ali (a.s.) for a need, who is worthier to be asked, Allah or Imam Ali (a.s.)? Or, can we say that there is no priority? 9/18/2006 11:45:41 AM

A: Allah is the only one Whom we should ask for our needs, where as, asking Imam Ali (a.s.) only for the needs while, believing that he is the one who answers them, is considered as ascribing him as (a.s.) a partner for Allah.

Q: Is it prohibited according to Islamic law to say “o Ali” (ya Ali)? 4/18/2006 11:50:47 AM

A: It is not prohibited to say (ya Ali), as long as the supplication is not addressed to anyone except to Allah and Ahl El-Beit (a.s) are but the intercessors. Although the Niyyah (the intention) is so, it is better that one should not address in his supplication anyone except Allah.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=110

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I'm not sure your reading comprehension is up to this discussion (or perhaps you are just purposely avoiding the point), since you think I implied anyone believes the Imams have independent powers, so I'll just leave it.

 

What always gets me is how the pro-tawassul crowd 'innocently' start their defence by saying" we aren't asking the Imams, we are asking through them", as in, the meaning of the dua is "Ya Ali, please ask Allah on my behalf". The fact of the matter is though that they believe it is perfectly acceptable to ask the Imams to help them through their own power. Now, perhaps there are some misguided souls out have been taken in by the aforementioned trick, and are just mindlessly repeating it, but I think the majority of educated people who use this argument are just being dishonest. What they want is to convince you bit by bit, and they know that if they just comes straight out with their beliefs, then it will scare too many people off.

Let's make this perfectly clear. The major scholars who believe you can call in the Imams for help also believe the Imams can help you through their own power, and dont need to ask Allah. Of course, they will say that the power of the Imams comes from Allah (which to them makes it ok), but they don't believe that the Imams are limited to simply making dua on your behalf. So rather than playing games, I wish people would straight out defend that position rather than pretending like they just want the Imams to pray for them on their behalf.

 

If that doesnt imply imams have independent power then prehaps you dont even know what your saying :/

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As for Sayyid Fadlallah's beliefs, what you say doesn't seem to match up with the following:

Q: What is the ruling on those who say for example: “Ya Ali” whenever they want to lift heavy objects? Is this considered an act of polytheism because one seeks the help of the Holy persons or Ahlelbeit rather than seeking it from Allah? 11/29/2006 1:24:45 PM

A: The pious person ought to abide by the Islamic instructions of the Quran and Sunna. Thus, he has to ask only for Allah’s help in conformity with Surat Al-Fatiha: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

Q: Is it permissible to supplicate and pray to the Imams with the intention that they are the means to Allah? If the answer is no, what is your opinion regarding this matter and what do you think about this Aya: {and seek mean of nearness to Allah}? 11/28/2006 1:02:30 PM

A: The supplication must be only addressed to Allah (The most Exalted) and this is what traditions of the Imams (a.s) have said. The Ayah refers to the means that guide to Allah and the Imams (a.s) are the guides to Allah because they know Allah, His religion and His message. Therefore, this Ayah does not mean that we have to address the supplication to the Imams and not to Allah (The Most Exalted).

Q: If I can ask Allah (The Most Exalted) and Imam Ali (a.s.) for a need, who is worthier to be asked, Allah or Imam Ali (a.s.)? Or, can we say that there is no priority? 9/18/2006 11:45:41 AM

A: Allah is the only one Whom we should ask for our needs, where as, asking Imam Ali (a.s.) only for the needs while, believing that he is the one who answers them, is considered as ascribing him as (a.s.) a partner for Allah.

Q: Is it prohibited according to Islamic law to say “o Ali” (ya Ali)? 4/18/2006 11:50:47 AM

A: It is not prohibited to say (ya Ali), as long as the supplication is not addressed to anyone except to Allah and Ahl El-Beit (a.s) are but the intercessors. Although the Niyyah (the intention) is so, it is better that one should not address in his supplication anyone except Allah.

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=110

I know these quotes. Where do you read that he prohibits it? I love some self-acclaimed Mujtahids and representatives of Mujtahids here.(And I don't even follow Sayed Fadlallah's rulings. Why don't you post the Fatwas of the other 99% of Shia Mujtahids?)

 

I doubt 50% of Sunni Ulama believe it is ok to call on the Prophet (pbuh) to grant them a child. Asking Allah to grant you a child for the sake of the Prophet (pbuh) isn't quite the same thing.

Before there was this big influence from Wahabi side Sunnis believed as much in Tawassul as Shia(if not more). There are masses of Sunnis who went and still go Madina and pray to the Prophet(s) and to Iraq and pray to Imam Abu Hanifa and Qaws al Adham in Baghdad and even to Shia Ziarats. You know who stopped all this? The Wahabi/Najdis from Saudi Arabia. But still a lot of mainstream Sunnis believe in direct Tawassul. What you believe or not is not so important, the facts are more important than your opinion.

Here you can see Sunni direct Tawassul:

http://qadri110.wordpress.com/tag/baghdad/

Here a poem from a Sunni Forum:

 

“The Master of the ‘Awliya, the leader of the men of the unseen, Ya Abdul Qadir al-Jilani,

The knower of secrets, the key to sainthood, Ya Abdul Qadir al-Jilani,

The one who uttered “my foot is on the neck of every saint” Ya Abdul Qadir al-Jilani,

The helper of the needy Ya Abdul Qadir al-Jilani, the one whose gaze transformed robbers to saints Ya Abdul Qadir al-Jilani,

You visit your lovers in dreams, Some are able to gaze at your face whilst others can not take a single glance, your voice sends your lovers into a trance, your autonomy is Baghdad, from there the Saints seek solace.”

http://sunnaforum.com/index.php?/topic/3222-poetry-on-ghawth-al-azam-shaykh-abdul-qadir-al-jilani-from-baghdad/

Please spare us your own opinions.

Edited by Shiabro

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If that doesnt imply imams have independent power then prehaps you dont even know what your saying :/

Their own power given to them by Allah. Basically, what they are capable of doing without needing to ask Allah to do it for them. So for example, Allah has given us the power to walk and talk. He hasn't given us the power to raise the dead. Perhaps, in an exception, someone could pray to Allah to bring someone back to life, and it could happen (as a miracle), but nobody can just raise the dead as easily as they can walk. However, many people do believe the Imams have this power (among others). The difference is between needing to ask Allah to do something, and being able to do it without asking as a power given to them by Allah.

Is that any clearer?

I know these quotes. Where do you read that he prohibits it? I love some self-acclaimed Mujtahids and representatives of Mujtahids here.(And I don't even follow Sayed Fadlallah's rulings. Why don't you post the Fatwas of the other 99% of Shia Mujtahids?)

Q: If I can ask Allah (The Most Exalted) and Imam Ali (a.s.) for a need, who is worthier to be asked, Allah or Imam Ali (a.s.)? Or, can we say that there is no priority? 9/18/2006 11:45:41 AM

A: Allah is the only one Whom we should ask for our needs, where as, asking Imam Ali (a.s.) only for the needs while, believing that he is the one who answers them, is considered as ascribing him as (a.s.) a partner for Allah.

Q: Is it prohibited according to Islamic law to say “o Ali” (ya Ali)? 4/18/2006 11:50:47 AM

A: It is not prohibited to say (ya Ali), as long as the supplication is not addressed to anyone except to Allah and Ahl El-Beit (a.s) are but the intercessors. Although the Niyyah (the intention) is so, it is better that one should not address in his supplication anyone except Allah.

He says that only Allah can be addressed in the dua. Clearly, many people are addressing the Imams (as).

I'm only bringing up his rulings because you mentioned them. I don't really care what he, or other scholars say about it. I'm not prepared to stake by afterlife on what some scholars say is allowed. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Anyway, nobody is stopping you from doing what you want. This is a forum for people to exchange their points of view. I've just given mine. My point in this thread wasn't even about whether or not this is allowed, but simply to point out how (most of) those who defend it tend to start by defending a minimalist version of what they actually believe, rather than just being explicit about what they believe is allowed.

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Supplications from the imams:

 

http://english.bayynat.org/Spirituals/

 

" O Allah". 

 

And duas  from Quran:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235015396-duas-from-the-holy-quran/

 

"Our Lord", not Ya Ali madad...

 

 

There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

Edited by Nima

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There was once a young man hired by a company with 2 managers. The young man did not like one of the mangers and thought that the other manger is more worthy of respect, to show his belief he started not answering the order of the one he disliked but if the exactly same order came from the other, he would answer it .

After a year, the young man discovered that there was only one true manager which is the man he disliked , the manger was planning to open another bigger branch of his company and is evaluating the employee to pick those who are worthy of promotion. Do you think the manager will pick up the young man? The young man was hard worker, has great personality, creative etc but cannot tolerate the manager and do not respect him at all.

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Many Shias call out Ya Ali Ya Hussain, isn't it a sin callong on others beside God? And if not, can you please provide evidence?

 

Thanks.

Of course it is!You know that,when the Prophet was in his Death bed,the last thing he uttered was a curse towards Jews and Christians.When asked why,he replied that it's because they worship partners with God.Christians believe Jesus is God and some Jews believe their saints are a mean to connect to God.Actually,there's a famous Jewish sect called Chabad-Lubavitch which openly teaches that their rebbe,who died in 1994,is not really dead and furthermore he is Godly!

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Of course it is!You know that,when the Prophet was in his Death bed,the last thing he uttered was a curse towards Jews and Christians.When asked why,he replied that it's because they worship partners with God.Christians believe Jesus is God and some Jews believe their saints are a mean to connect to God.Actually,there's a famous Jewish sect called Chabad-Lubavitch which openly teaches that their rebbe,who died in 1994,is not really dead and furthermore he is Godly!

So God is commiting shirk then?

 

Baqara 154. "And do not say of those who are slain in Allah's way: ' They are dead.' Nay (they are) alive, but you perceive (it) not."

 

Sura -Ale-'Imran No3. Verses 169, 170 "And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;" " Rejoicing in what Allah has given them out of His grace, ..."

 

Why would God allow shirk in the Quran? Clearly Moses's follower called on Moses for help and not Allah.

 

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shi’a and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shi’a cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy”(Qur’an 28:15)

 

Your Books:

 

"When the death time of Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) approached, he said: `O Allah! I seek to approach toward you by means of Wilayah (accepting the mastery) of ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib.’“

Sunni references:

- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p662, Tradition #1129

- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v3, p167

- Manaqib Ahmad

لما حضرت عبد الله ابن عباس الوفاة قال: اللَّهم إني أتقربُ إليك بولاية علي ابن أبي طالب

Please note that Ibn Abbas died in 68/687 which was 28 years after the martyrdom of Imam ‘Ali (as). If resorting (Tawassul) to a dead was considered association (shirk), then Ibn Abbas would not dare to say so, and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal would not have recorded it.

 

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.59

Narrated Anas:

Whenever there was drought, ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-’Abbas bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, saying, "O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain.”And they would be given rain."

Edited by PureEthics

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Bro, sorry I dont have time to listen to futile arguments made by extermists who have full of hate towards us shia. If something is deem shirk and haram, clearly you should have the logic and prevalent proof to go against it. If we cannot ask for help from anyone besides Allah, then clearly we are all deemed in hell and Allah's system is in full contradiction since there has not been one person who has not been helped from birth by his or her parents/family. Also the first video the guy made a huge error, looks like he hasnt read the quran:

 

Clearly Allah is telling the people that they should have asked forgivness from the prophet Muhammad:

 

We sent no messenger but to be obeyed by the leave of Allah. If they who have been unjust to themselves had come to you (Prophet Muhammad) and begged Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them—indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.7

 

Clearly Allah shows the children are asking their father to pray for forgivness ...

 

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.8

Edited by PureEthics

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You can ask Prophets to interced when they are ALIVE,not when they are dead or in barzaq.Plus that,it's convenient not to watch my videos but to simply label them as works of extremists who hate Shias.Very convenient indeed!

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You can ask Prophets to interced when they are ALIVE,not when they are dead or in barzaq.Plus that,it's convenient not to watch my videos but to simply label them as works of extremists who hate Shias.Very convenient indeed!

 

Ya, umm clearly Allah says in the Quran that they ARE alive, more than once.

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They in barzaq;i.e. they are alive with God but dead for us.

 

Okay lets say they are alive in Barzaq, ya so? I dont get your argument. Clearly, not all are given this special ability. If they were dead for us, Allah wouldnt be telling us that they are alive and that we dont percieve it. That wouldnt make any sense it would be pointless, in fact, that would mean Allah doesnt know his own system. Why would He tell us they are alive yet they are dead and it wouldnt affect us regardless? The main significance of this verse given to us by Allah, is that they are alive , and its affirmed by Allah countering those who believe they are dead to us, not only by telling us we dont percieve it but by also saying they are given sustenance. Another question, isnt beings in barzaq already alive, why would Allah be providing sustenance when they are already existing?

 

Another point to ponder on, if we are not able to ask for interession from a being in general, why has Allah provided us with these verses?

 

No intercessor can plead with Him except by His permission.[103]

Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission?[104]

On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah, the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him.[105]

And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased.[106]

None shall have the power of intercession except one who has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious.[107]

Intercession with Him profits none except for those He permits.[108]

 

"They (i.e., prophets and Imams) do not say anything until He orders, and they act (in all things) by His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they (i.e., those saints) offer no intercession except for anyone whom Allah accepts, and they are in awe and reverence of His (glory).”(Qur’an 21:27-28)

 

 

Also why would Allah command us to pray for the prophet?

If the prophet cant hear us, why do we say our salams to him and his family in our prayer?

 

‘Indeed God and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who have faith! Invoke blessings on him and invoke Peace upon him in a worthy manner.’(33:56)

 

 

 

 

The most clear proof is that if asking help from anyone other than Allah is shirk and shirk is the "worse sin", why hasnt Allah given a verse commanding us not to ask help from dead prophets or beings in general? Did God forget? Or does He not care? The answer is clear from the verses above ;)

Edited by PureEthics

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