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humanbeing101

Not A Sin To Call Others Beside God?

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Intercession throught the prophets will be possible only on judgement day,not in our present days.Past that,I've found out not all Shia scholars believe in the permissibility of tawassul:

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=110

 

Wrong, if it was only day of judgement then Allah should have added that to the verses above. We have one verse pertaining to the proof that intercession by Muhammad A.S  alone will be given on the day of judgement, but it doesnt say anything about it being only on that day. If you look at the verses above, intercessessor is in plural meaning more than one being able to intercede by Allah's will.  Also this marja agrees with all other marjas, your taking his words out of context. If anyone believes the prophet or imams to be independent from Allah then clearly tawassul is shirk, no one disagrees on this.

Edited by PureEthics

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^... I don't take my religion from Sunni sources. I find it odd that we had 12 Imams to teach us the Religion of the Prophet and we are turning to Ahaddith in other sects works?

I don't have a problem with Tawassul. All Muslims (minus perhaps Salafi's) believe in it's permissibility.

Tawassul = Bi Haqqi Muhammad wa aali Muhammad.

What I have an issue with is you smashing Tawassul & Istigatha together and presenting it as 'Tawassul' when it's not.

I'll take leave from this discussion. It's proven time and time again to a circular one. I am in the midst of discussing this matter with my teacher. I'll revisit this matter in two weeks time, Señor PureEthics :P

Who knows, perhaps I may change my views.

Ma'salamaa

 

Br. I thought alot about this issue also. When I first became muslim, and I heard people saying 'Ya Ali Madad' (O Ali Help Me), it sounded to me like shirk. At the same time, I realized that I was making a big mistake in judging someone before I knew their intention. If you hear someone saying "Ya Ali Madad", you don't know their intention(their niyyat), if they are asking Allah(s.w.a) to help them thru a "Wasilat" (means of approach), the Quran tells us to do that

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّـهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَاهِدُوا فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

 

5:35

 

أُولَـٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا

17:57

 

It is very well known, at least amoung Shia that the Wasilat are Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Ahl Al Bayt(a.s) since we only truely know Allah(s.w.a) thru their teachings. 

 

This is different, though, than calling on Ali(a.s) and believing that Imam Ali(a.s) has any power to help them, that is independent of Allah(s.w.a) and can happen without the will of Allah(s.w.a). That, of course, would be shirk.

 

Personally, I don't say, 'Ya Ali Madad' just in any moment or occasion, as some people do, because there is a line and I want to make sure I am always on the right side of it, especially coming from a Christian background where people routinely call on 'Jesus' to help them and believe that Jesus has power independant of God. So in order to stay, safe, myself, I only say things like this as part of a Dua' that is authentic and from our Imams (many in Sahifat Sajiddiah and other books).  At the same time, I would never criticize a Shia for saying this, because I dont' know their intention and I have to assume it is correct unless I have rock solid evidence to the contrary. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Its like saying the millions of people who go to the shrine of Imam Hussain calling Ya Hussain are all commiting shirk, except the fact they pray to Allah in their daily prayers.. Whats up with that? Ask anyone of those uneducated people at the shrine why are they calling on Imam Hussain and they will tell you by the power of Allah. I honestly think its the most idiotic argument ever. Its like sunnis who accuse us of shirk with turbah. since when do you worship a god by placing your head on it? That would mean sunnis worship carpets. The difference between shias and christians is we dont deem Allah's chosen ones seperate from Allah, nor do we pray to images of them. We also dont pray to them for forgiveness of our sins.

 

Also someone like Sayed Sistani, who is purley based in theology and hadith, allows this. Do you deem him wrong in this matter?

Edited by PureEthics

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^... You clearly have not been paying attention to anything me, Nima or Haydar Husayn were saying... I've given up discussing this issue publicly, it gets nowhere and just goes around in an irrational circle. The problem is when people are making Du'a to the Imams. Saying Ya Ali or Ya Husayn without the intention of making Du'a to them is not what I was addressing. Directly calling upon the Imams is not asking Allah through them, as much as you'd like it to be, it's not. Pure and simple. The examples you are using are absurd, bro :donno: I'm unsure what your trying to argue here. Something you forgot to mention in regards to Christians is that neither Jesus [a] nor the Imams [a] told their followers to call upon them, yet they both seem to do this.

Again, allow me to reiterate, I would have absolutely no issue with this if this was something taught by the A'immah [as] themselves but the issue is that this isn't the case at all. You can't take what's implicit (yet ironically, this practice wasn't even implicitly taught by the imams either) over what is explicit (i.e., making Du'a to other than Allah which is explicitly condemned in the Qur'an and Ahaddith).

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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^... You clearly have not been paying attention to anything me, Nima or Haydar Husayn were saying... I've given up discussing this issue publicly, it gets nowhere and just goes around in an irrational circle. The problem is when people are making Du'a to the Imams. Saying Ya Ali or Ya Husayn without the intention of making Du'a to them is not what I was addressing. Directly calling upon the Imams is not asking Allah through them, as much as you'd like it to be, it's not. Pure and simple. The examples you are using are absurd, bro :dunno: I'm unsure what your trying to argue here. Something you forgot to mention in regards to Christians is that neither Jesus [a] nor the Imams [a] told their followers to call upon them, yet they both seem to do this.

Again, allow me to reiterate, I would have absolutely no issue with this if this was something taught by the A'immah [as] themselves but the issue is that this isn't the case at all. You can't take what's implicit (yet ironically, this practice wasn't even implicitly taught by the imams either) over what is explicit (i.e., making Du'a to other than Allah which is explicitly condemned in the Qur'an and Ahaddith).

 

 

First of all, I dont think you understand, we dont need hadiths when we have Allah addressing this in the quran. Refer to brother Hadi's verses. The word Allah uses in that verse doesnt just mean use them like rolemodels, Allah uses the word wasila and shaafa. Bro, what I dont think you understand is, instead of worrying about us calling on them directly, worry about the whole mankind calling on people for help directly. Why isnt that not shirk? Its pure and simple, instead of Allah, your wasila is a train that takes you places. Instead of Allah, your wasila is the doctor that heals you. Instead of Allah, you call on your mom/dad for help. See how stupid this sounds. What kind of argument is that? I think if you are basing that as shirk, your existence is made up of shirk. Your mom and dad commited shirk by bringing you to life, they should have asked Allah. Please be consistent with this illogical argument. The problem you have is calling on your hands directly to help you type on the computer, ask Allah to do it for you. Dont tell others they commit shirk when you do it constantly.

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*Facepalm* I never said anyone is committing shirk. You aren't listening young Juan.

Firstly, you're mixing up Ibadah (which includes religious practices and Du'a) with everyday actions that have no connection to Religion at all. Secondly, you're insinuating I said all that (including those examples) are Shirk when I did not. There is a huge difference between asking my mother to pass me the salt and asking Imam Ali to heal me or calling on him directly when he is no longer in my presence. If you fail to see this then there is nothing I can do help you.

Neither of us are Qur'anists so I think playing the there is no need of Ahaddith card isn't the best move. We have been given 12 Masoom guides to follow after the Prophet [sawa]. We are to follow their example in our religious matters and daily affairs. It's not anyone's fault they failed to even mention once that this was part of our religion. Yet I'm expected to believe something that even appears to run contrary to the foundation of their Message with not a shred of explicit evidence from the Qur'an or Imams themselves? Surely, you do find this odd? Let's reason here.

The Qur'an said seek a means to Allah so what is that means? The Aimmah are, no one doubts this. However, how on earth have you concluded that this verse means we can call on other than Allah and ask the Aimmah directly? There is just no connection. They (the Aimmah) tell us how to seek nearness to Allaah, correct? So when Imam Ali [a] states in Nahjul Balagha that the best way to seek nearness to Allah is through salat why do I need to turn around and say: 'no, making Du'a to the Imam is what is the best.'?

If you think that the verse in question gives us permission to call on the Imams then why didn't the Imams themselves say this? Where are the traditions where the Imams have said: 'Allah has given you permission to call on us, even after we leave the world'?

Now, I'm aware you don't like me using the word du'a to describe what you're doing, but let's face it, that's exactly what it is. Calling on Ali isn't calling on Allah. Beggining a suplication to The Lord of the Universe as 'Ya Ali' or Ya Muhamamd' is rather strange, isn't it? Who are you addressing, God or a created being? Certainly not Allah if you begin by saying Ya Ali.

This is what the Aimmah have taught:

Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] said,

"When you stand to pray, say: 'O my Lord, I give preference to Muhammad and place him in front of me in need, and turn to You through him. So, make me privileged to You through him, and bring me near to You through him in this world and the next. Make my prayers accepted through him, my sins forgiven through him, and my supplications answered through him. Indeed, you are the Forgiving, the Merciful.'"

(al-Kafi)

Calling on other than Him is not something that the Imams did or encouraged.

See how stupid this sounds[b/].

Yes, I have that thought every time this discussion and these arguments are given to me :P Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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*Facepalm* I never said anyone is committing shirk. You aren't listening young Juan.

Firstly, you're mixing up Ibadah (which includes religious practices and Du'a) with everyday actions that have no connection to Religion at all. Secondly, you're insinuating I said all that (including those examples) are Shirk when I did not. There is a huge difference between asking my mother to pass me the salt and asking Imam Ali to heal me or calling on him directly when he is no longer in my presence. If you fail to see this then there is nothing I can do help you.

 

 

Huh? How is asking help from a person different from asking help from an imam? Besides, everything we do is in relation to the religion. Islam is life. When an action isnt listed in our do's and dont's, its neither halal or haram (ie. using a computer). However that action still has the ability to fall within halal or haram (ie. using a computer for good/bad). If calling on imams are not shirk, why denounce it so much? In relation to the action being sought, yes there is a difference to being asked to get healed vs getting help from your mom. However, the argument isnt there. The argument is, what makes it shirk. We go day to day on our lives asking for help, without directly realizing it is by Allah's power and will. But clearly that isnt shirk, because in our conscience and understandings we know, it was Allah who gave them the ability to help us. Therefore when going to the doctors to get medicine, we know it was all from Allah. This is what seperates believers from atheists. They believe science is the core, hence they are committing shirk daily since they dont believe in Allah, which makes every source of action/power independent. Which is why I argue whether a shia calls on a imam directly or not, we awknowledge Allah's power regardless. Also the argument isnt if Imam's are next to us or if they can hear us, since that is quite clear in quran and hadith.

 

 

Neither of us are Qur'anists so I think playing the there is no need of Ahaddith card isn't the best move. We have been given 12 Masoom guides to follow after the Prophet [sawa]. We are to follow their example in our religious matters and daily affairs. It's not anyone's fault they failed to even mention once that this was part of our religion. Yet I'm expected to believe something that even appears to run contrary to the foundation of their Message with not a shred of explicit evidence from the Qur'an or Imams themselves? Surely, you do find this odd? Let's reason here.

 

Im not playing any card. Not everything is in the quran and hadith literally word by word. Just because it isnt, doesnt make something haram. I have explained this quite a few times. Why didnt the imams once mention do not call on us after we are dead?

 

 

 

The Qur'an said seek a means to Allah so what is that means? The Aimmah are, no one doubts this. However, how on earth have you concluded that this verse means we can call on other than Allah and ask the Aimmah directly? There is just no connection. They (the Aimmah) tell us how to seek nearness to Allaah, correct? So when Imam Ali [a] states in Nahjul Balagha that the best way to seek nearness to Allah is through salat why do I need to turn around and say: 'no, making Du'a to the Imam is what is the best.'?

 

I dont think you understand the term wasila. I suggest checking out the definition here: http://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol5-n4-2000/tawassul-seeking-way-unto-Allah-dr-abd-al-karim-shirazi/tawassul#tawassul-view-prominent-imami-ulama

 

I also dont think you understand the significance of wasila, as I once again have mentioned numerous times. First of all, why is it we ask other pious beings to pray and ask forgivess for us? Isnt it better to ask Allah directly? The point is one is more benificial then the other, although BOTH are a means to Allah. Same concept applies to our imams and prophets, except they are PERFECT, the ideal wasila, the chosen. Who better then them? No one asks our imams to cure them by their own power. For example if I say "Ya Ali please cure this cancer", obviously I mean it in relation to Ali A.S position with Allah, Allah granting Ali A.S the ability to cure me due to his status with Allah. This is same in regards to a doctor healing you as I have mentioned above. Your going directly to the doctor for shaafa not Allah, literally speaking, but intention wise, obviusly Allah is the source of the ability of that doctor's power. Some do call on them for help, but that is still in regards with Allah's will. We do however, use for example their shrine or turbah from their graves, but that is only through seeking shaafa by the will of Allah and their baraka. Also no one makes a prayer to the imams, who said that? Now there is a difference between addressing them (calling on them), and worshipping them o_O... Coming from someone who defends tawassul very very very highly, I have never prayed to them.

 

"Every supplication is not a form of worship or even the spirit of worship, since the root of du'a' (supplication) is da'wat, a word which along with its derivatives occurs frequently in the Holy Qur'an. For instance,

“let us call (nad'u) our sons (3:61)”

and

Make you not the addressing (du'a') of the Prophet among you like your addressing one another” (24:63)

As could be discerned, in most of the 'Ayas the word du'a' means to call or address. Accordingly neither every nida' (call) is du'a' nor every du'a' is 'ibadat (worship). In other words du'a' (supplication) becomes 'ibadat when the rules of worship such as servitude and submissiveness to Allah are observed with acknowledgement of the over lordship of the Almighty Creator. What connection does this have with tawassul and tabarruk to the Prophet (saws) and the Infallible Imams (as) and requesting them for help and succour?

 

To quote Rashid Rida himself, those who seek tawassul are like guests who approach the host for some of their needs, and at times request the members of the household or friends of the hosts who have been appointed to serve the guests, since they consider everything to be the favour of the host."

 

 

Calling on other than Him is not something that the Imams did or encouraged.

 

 

Of course the imams wouldnt call on others, they ARE the means, duh. Also they did encourage using them as the means to Allah. Dua Tawassul and Ziyarat al-Jamiah are two simple examples...

http://www.duas.org/Shafaat.htm

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*Facepalm* I never said anyone is committing shirk. You aren't listening young Juan.

Firstly, you're mixing up Ibadah (which includes religious practices and Du'a) with everyday actions that have no connection to Religion at all. Secondly, you're insinuating I said all that (including those examples) are Shirk when I did not. There is a huge difference between asking my mother to pass me the salt and asking Imam Ali to heal me or calling on him directly when he is no longer in my presence. If you fail to see this then there is nothing I can do help you.

Neither of us are Qur'anists so I think playing the there is no need of Ahaddith card isn't the best move. We have been given 12 Masoom guides to follow after the Prophet [sawa]. We are to follow their example in our religious matters and daily affairs. It's not anyone's fault they failed to even mention once that this was part of our religion. Yet I'm expected to believe something that even appears to run contrary to the foundation of their Message with not a shred of explicit evidence from the Qur'an or Imams themselves? Surely, you do find this odd? Let's reason here.

The Qur'an said seek a means to Allah so what is that means? The Aimmah are, no one doubts this. However, how on earth have you concluded that this verse means we can call on other than Allah and ask the Aimmah directly? There is just no connection. They (the Aimmah) tell us how to seek nearness to Allaah, correct? So when Imam Ali [a] states in Nahjul Balagha that the best way to seek nearness to Allah is through salat why do I need to turn around and say: 'no, making Du'a to the Imam is what is the best.'?

If you think that the verse in question gives us permission to call on the Imams then why didn't the Imams themselves say this? Where are the traditions where the Imams have said: 'Allah has given you permission to call on us, even after we leave the world'?

Now, I'm aware you don't like me using the word du'a to describe what you're doing, but let's face it, that's exactly what it is. Calling on Ali isn't calling on Allah. Beggining a suplication to The Lord of the Universe as 'Ya Ali' or Ya Muhamamd' is rather strange, isn't it? Who are you addressing, God or a created being? Certainly not Allah if you begin by saying Ya Ali.

This is what the Aimmah have taught:

Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq [a] said,

"When you stand to pray, say: 'O my Lord, I give preference to Muhammad and place him in front of me in need, and turn to You through him. So, make me privileged to You through him, and bring me near to You through him in this world and the next. Make my prayers accepted through him, my sins forgiven through him, and my supplications answered through him. Indeed, you are the Forgiving, the Merciful.'"

(al-Kafi)

Calling on other than Him is not something that the Imams did or encouraged.

Yes, I have that thought every time this discussion and these arguments are given to me :P

Excellently said!

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There was once a young man hired by a company with 2 managers. The young man did not like one of the mangers and thought that the other manger is more worthy of respect, to show his belief he started not answering the order of the one he disliked but if the exactly same order came from the other, he would answer it .

After a year, the young man discovered that there was only one true manager which is the man he disliked , the manger was planning to open another bigger branch of his company and is evaluating the employee to pick those who are worthy of promotion. Do you think the manager will pick up the young man? The young man was hard worker, has great personality, creative etc but cannot tolerate the manager and do not respect him at all.

Well, this is called the obedience tawheed, unification of obedience. Although the young man was doing his job but he was doing it because the fake manager asked him to do it.

Let's say that a person had issue against circumcision , he was shown hadiths regarding it and plenty of fatwas but he still had issues, then he was shown some scientific papers that claim that circumcision has proven health benefits. Only then the person accepted circumcision and performed it, according to the laws of tawheed of obedience , is his act consisted a good deed or not?

According to the laws of tawheed, what the man did will not be counted as good deed. This is why in Shia Islam we have emphasis on wilayah (loyalty and adherence to only one path) and that's why we consider deeds done by non Shia to be at risk of being nullified, because in many instances, people perform these deeds because fake managers ( fake scholars) asked them to do it even though if we showed them Hadith of the prophet that says otherwise.

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Bumping this because i feel it was a brilliant discussion on both sites. I personally do not say Ya Ali madad.

 

I say Ya Allah, Bihaqqi Ali.

 

The Quran is crystal clear to not call on any other than Allah swt. I don't believe the Imams a.s were given the power to control the universe. They were given power which Allah swt willed to fulfill their role and duty , as Allah swt willed.

 

We put our needs before Allah swt, through them not to them. A waseelah is a means, Allah swt is the target. By saying Ya Ali madad, no-where do you clearly define your target.

 

This is one of the reasons why i admire Ayatullah Fadallah.

 

"Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind them as you would thereby be ruined."
~ Imam Ali (a) ~

Find me a single hadith in any shia-book, that our Imams taught us to call on them directly? A single hadith.

 

I can give you many where they or Muhammed pbuh make sure it was like:

 

1. OH Allah

2. I TURN TO YOU

3. THROUGH MUHAMMED

 

Never make a dua where you do not mention Allah in my view.

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