Abu Bakr Being Called As Siddique

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 18, 2013

(wasalam)

It's only your assumption that verse 18 confirms that everyone fulfilled their promise. No translation of the verse tells us what you are claiming. So it is you who is claiming to know more than Allah.

Read the above post for the evidence regarding hypocrites.

(salam)

I am sorry but the only person who is making assumption and acting to know more than Allah is you. I am quoting the verse of Quran, not making assumption. You on the other hand failed to provide any evidence for your claims and you will never be able to provide any evidence, that is for sure.

Allah clearly says that those who pledged under the tree fulfilled their oaths, you reject the word of Allah and claim not all of them fulfilled their oaths as if you know more than Allah. It is very clear to everyone who is making assumptions without any evidence.

Alhumdulillah, I don't need help from you on this as you are lost. It would be better if you go check any translation of Quran and see if anyone has translated verse 18 to something like everyone who swore was a believer. So it's obvious that it's you who needs help.

Allah says those who pledged were believers. You claim there were also disbelievers among them but you failed to provide any evidence for it. A desperate attempt to twist the verses of the Quran.

Nope. You are first ignoring the fact that Abu Qutada was also fleeing and secondly, he saw Umar amongst those people while fleeing. It doesn't matter how many more narrations you have, this one is quite clear to a unbiased person where Umar was.

That is your false assumption again. Abu Qatada never said Umar was fleeing. I already provided you Authentic narrations that Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) but since you follow your desire and you are programmed to hate that companion from childhood you reject it.

Why are you dodging my question and not enlightening us if Umar was with the prophet (pbuh) why did he blame Allah for cowardice of the people & encouraged everyone to run? If he was with the Prophet (pbuh) as you claim why did not tell people to be with him and help the Prophet (pbuh) ?

I already quoted Sahih narration that Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) and since they don't suite with your desires you reject them and call them 'forged narration'.

You are sounding like a broken record. For one final time, Verse 18 doesn't say that everyone who swore was a believer. Even if hypothetically agreed even then it doesn't mean that they would never break it. So stop holding on to clutches.

It was possible for some of them to break their oaths but they didn't as Allah confirmed in verse 18.

I have already refuted your incorrect assumption many times.

It is clear to everyone what you proved in this thread.

You are only good at claiming things with out providing any proof. I have been constantly asking you to provide me the translation which says that everyone who swore was a believer but you are cleverly dodging that question and now you accuse me of something which you should be attributed to. Setting a condition is one aspect and breaking it is another. The day you understand the difference in the two you can claim to have read the Quran. Until then stop making false accusations.

Yes, you have failed miserably to present a translation where it is mentioned that everyone who swore was a believer. So please stop your deception.

It is very clear to everyone who failed to provide evidence for their claims. My evidence is verse 10 and 18 of Surah al-Fath, your evidence are assumptions and claiming things without providing any evidence.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

**yam_110** · December 18, 2013

(salam)
I am sorry but the only person who is making assumption and acting to know more than Allah is you. I am quoting the verse of Quran, not making assumption. You on the other hand failed to provide any evidence for your claims and you will never be able to provide any evidence, that is for sure.

Allah clearly says that those who pledged under the tree fulfilled their oaths, you reject the word of Allah and claim not all of them fulfilled their oaths as if you know more than Allah. It is very clear to everyone who is making assumptions without any evidence.

Allah says those who pledged were believers. You claim there were also disbelievers among them but you failed to provide any evidence for it. A desperate attempt to twist the verses of the Quran.

(wasalam)

One more assumption of yours. I am still waiting for the translation of the verse where it says that everyone who swore being called as a believer. Until then it will remain an assumption of yours.

I am not the one rejecting anything. I am only telling you to provide me the translation which tells us what you are claiming.

For one last time, the verse I am reading from Quran tells us that Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers. It is in no way telling us that everyone who swore was a believer. Why don't you provide us your source?

I have already pointed out the difference and an incident which affirms the presence of hypocrites

That is your false assumption again. Abu Qatada never said Umar was fleeing. I already provided you Authentic narrations that Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) but since you follow your desire and you are programmed to hate that companion from childhood you reject it.

You are running around in circles and not answering my question. Again, please answer the below questions:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing?

2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people?

3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing?

Is it that hard to answer the above questions? Please stop assuming about what I have been programmed to do and answer the above questions.

I already quoted Sahih narration that Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) and since they don't suite with your desires you reject them and call them 'forged narration'.

But you haven't answered my question. Have you? If Umar was with the prophet (pbuh) why did he blame Allah for cowardice of the people & encouraged everyone to run? If he was with the Prophet (pbuh) as you claim why did not tell people to be with him and help the Prophet (pbuh) ?

It was possible for some of them to break their oaths but they didn't as Allah confirmed in verse 18.

It is clear to everyone what you proved in this thread.

Stop playing games. Where does Allah say that they won't break the oath? Verse 18 is only about Allah's tranquility on Believers, It doesn't say that those who took the oath will not break it.

Again, your deception is not working.

It is very clear to everyone who failed to provide evidence for their claims. My evidence is verse 10 and 18 of Surah al-Fath, your evidence are assumptions and claiming things without providing any evidence.

Stop claiming verse 10 & 18 are your evidence. You have still not brought a single translation of the verse which tell us that everyone who swore was a believer. You are only good at lying.

And where are the other verses which support your claim you made on the first page of this thread? Were they also bogus claims like all the other ones you have made so far?

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 18, 2013

(wasalam)

One more assumption of yours. I am still waiting for the translation of the verse where it says that everyone who swore being called as a believer. Until then it will remain an assumption of yours.

I am not the one rejecting anything. I am only telling you to provide me the translation which tells us what you are claiming.

For one last time, the verse I am reading from Quran tells us that Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers. It is in no way telling us that everyone who swore was a believer. Why don't you provide us your source?

I have already pointed out the difference and an incident which affirms the presence of hypocrites

(salam)

Everyone can see that you have failed to provide any evidence for your claims since you made the claim there were hypocrites and disbelievers among the 1400. If you claim not everyone who pledged under the tree were believers then provide evidence for your claims. This is what I am asking you. You have failed to provide any evidence again and again.

10. Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.

Why is Allah saying "he who fulfill, He will give him reward"? Didn't Allah know that some of them are disbelievers and hypocrites and and He doesn't reward hypocrites/disbelievers? The words of Allah proves without a doubt that there was not a single hypocrite of disbelievers among them. But Mr.Yam110 knows more than Allah and claims there were hypocrites and disbelievers.

Then Allah confirms their pledge and fulfilment of their oath:

18. Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest.

Allah says He knew what was in their hearts when they were pledging under the tree meaning they pledged with pure hearts, with honesty and sincerity.

Allah doesn't say anything about hypocrites or disbelievers or those who broke their oaths even if they were believers. Why is there is no hint or mention of people breaking their hudaibiyah oaths? Why didn't Allah say anything about them? Allah didn't know about them but you know?

You claim there were disbelievers and hypocrites among them but you failed provide any evidence. The reason you reject these verses of Quran is very clear and twist it, because the two best companions of the Prophet (saw) whom you hate a lot and do Takfir of were present there and pledged and fulfilled.

You are running around in circles and not answering my question. Again, please answer the below questions:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing?
2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people?
3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing?

Is it that hard to answer the above questions? Please stop assuming about what I have been programmed to do and answer the above questions.

But you haven't answered my question. Have you? If Umar was with the prophet (pbuh) why did he blame Allah for cowardice of the people & encouraged everyone to run? If he was with the Prophet (pbuh) as you claim why did not tell people to be with him and help the Prophet (pbuh) ?

Your questions are meaningless when I already showed you Sahih narrations that Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) but since they don't suite your desire you reject them.

You poor understanding of narrations is another reason you failed to understand anything. Umar didn't blame Allah. Abu Qatada nevers says that Umar was also fleeing, He met Umar in the battlefield and asked him what is happening. This proves that Umar was standing and not fleeing otherwise how was it possible for him to met Umar when they both according to you were fleeing? The people were fleeing towards the direction where the Prophet (saw) and his companions were and Abu Qatada met Umar on his way. There were more than 150 Companions who stood and did not flee and Umar was among them as I already proved it.

Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve another!? (2:85)

Stop playing games. Where does Allah say that they won't break the oath? Verse 18 is only about Allah's tranquility on Believers, It doesn't say that those who took the oath will not break it.

Again, your deception is not working.

Stop claiming verse 10 & 18 are your evidence. You have still not brought a single translation of the verse which tell us that everyone who swore was a believer. You are only good at lying.

I never said that Allah says "they wont break the oath". That is what you made up.

I said it was possible for some of them to break their oath but they didn't as Allah confirmed in in verse 18:

Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest.

**yam_110** · December 18, 2013

(salam)

Everyone can see that you have failed to provide any evidence for your claims since you made the claim there were hypocrites and disbelievers among the 1400. If you claim not everyone who pledged under the tree were believers then provide evidence for your claims. This is what I am asking you. You have failed to provide any evidence again and again.

10. Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muhammad] - they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. So he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.

Why is Allah saying "he who fulfill, He will give him reward"? Didn't Allah know that some of them are disbelievers and hypocrites and and He doesn't reward hypocrites/disbelievers? The words of Allah proves without a doubt that there was not a single hypocrite of disbelievers among them. But Mr.Yam110 knows more than Allah and claims there were hypocrites and disbelievers.

Then Allah confirms their pledge and fulfilment of their oath:

18. Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest.

Allah says He knew what was in their hearts when they were pledging under the tree meaning they pledged with pure hearts, with honesty and sincerity.

Allah doesn't say anything about hypocrites or disbelievers or those who broke their oaths even if they were believers. Why is there is no hint or mention of people breaking their hudaibiyah oaths? Why didn't Allah say anything about them? Allah didn't know about them but you know?

You claim there were disbelievers and hypocrites among them but you failed provide any evidence. The reason you reject these verses of Quran is very clear and twist it, because the two best companions of the Prophet (saw) whom you hate a lot and do Takfir of were present there and pledged and fulfilled.

(wasalam)

Stop your deception. You still haven't provided the translation where it says that everyone who swore was a believer but instead are going around in circles and misrepresenting verse 10 by forgetting the condition for the people who swore to receive the reward. If everyone was a believer then Allah would have simply said that. You are not understanding this simple verse or intentionally manipulating it to your liking.

You have highlighted some parts of the verse:

And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.

Isn't this exactly what I have been telling you all along. Only those who fulfill the promise will be rewarded. Isn't it enough evidence that not everyone was going to be rewarded? So your theory that everyone who swore was a believer and was rewarded is nullified completely.

We read in Hayat al Qulub Vol 2:

“Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree…” [48:18]

…on the condition that after that they will never oppose whatever the Prophet says or does in future. After that the Almighty Allah revealed the following verses:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ ۚ فَمَنْ نَكَثَ فَإِنَّمَا يَنْكُثُ عَلَىٰ نَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ أَوْفَىٰ بِمَا عَاهَدَ عَلَيْهُ اللَّهَ فَسَيُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

“Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands. Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward.” [48:10]

Ali bin Ibrahim says that the Almighty Allah was not satisfied with them except on the condition that after that they will fulfill the divine covenant and never break it. Since the sequence of the Qur’an is changed it means this only, that the Almighty Allah will be satisfied with them only on these conditions. After that the Almighty Allah has condemned those Arabs who failed to attend the expedition of Hudaibiyah:

As to what happened following that event during the signing of the treaty at Hudaibiyah:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: “If anyone of us joins you, I am aloof from him and we don’t need him. But the condition is that Muslims should remain free in Mecca and no one should harass them in expression of their faith and they must not be compelled to disbelief. They accepted this condition even though companions of the Prophet were not prepared to accept that and more than all, Umar was opposed to it.

He came to the Prophet and said: “O Messenger of Allah (S), are we not on the right?” “Yes, we are.” “Then why should we accept such humiliation?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “The Almighty Allah has promised victory to me and He never goes back on His words.” Umar said: “If 40 men had supported me, I would have rebelled against Muhammad.”

Suhail and Hafas returned to Quraish and conveyed the good news. Umar began to argue with the Prophet, “Did you not say that we will enter the Masjidul Haram and shave our heads?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “I didn’t say that it will occur this year. I had said that the Almighty Allah has promised me that I will conquer Mecca and perform the pilgrimage rituals and shave my head.

When other hypocrites began murmuring among themselves, the Prophet said, “If you don’t like the treaty, you should go and fight the Quraish.” So they went to Quraish who were ready to fight, but when they launched an attack, the companions fled from there in humiliation and passed by the Holy Prophet (S) who smiled and told Imam Ali (a.s.): “O Ali, pull out your sword and ‘welcome’ Quraish.”

When Imam Ali (a.s.) took out the sword and moved towards Quraish they returned saying: “O Ali, is Muhammad regretful for making peace with us?” “No, he is firm on his agreement.” At last, the companions came back to the Messenger of Allah (S) and excused themselves. The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Perhaps you think that I don’t recognize you.” [The author says: The Prophet spoke in this sharp tone with Umar when he criticized that the Prophet has gone back on his words. And Ibn Abil Hadid has by this derived that Umar ran away from Battle of Uhud also.]

If only you had read the verse properly you would have understood that Allah is only referring to Believers in the verse and not everyone who swore. Allah says He knew what was in their hearts when they were pledging under the tree which cannot only mean that they pledged with pure hearts, with honesty and sincerity. It is again your assumption. It works both ways as Allah knows of the good and the bad. Unless you think Allah knows only about the good nauzubillah.

I don't reject the Quranic verses but only rejected your manipulated translation of the verses. So stop your deception and bring a translation where it says that everyone who swore was a believer. I don't want to see any more of your made up fallacies which you incorrectly call as translation of a verse, The only reason why you are doing it is because you have no other verse which even comes close to proving that the two demi gods of yours were believers, One more lies of yours from page 1 of this thread has been exposed.

Your questions are meaningless when I already showed you Sahih narrations that Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) but since they don't suite your desire you reject them.

You poor understanding of narrations is another reason you failed to understand anything. Umar didn't blame Allah. Abu Qatada nevers says that Umar was also fleeing, He met Umar in the battlefield and asked him what is happening. This proves that Umar was standing and not fleeing otherwise how was it possible for him to met Umar when they both according to you were fleeing? The people were fleeing towards the direction where the Prophet (saw) and his companions were and Abu Qatada met Umar on his way. There were more than 150 Companions who stood and did not flee and Umar was among them as I already proved it.

Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve another!? (2:85)

Why are the questions meaningless? You don't think that the narration in discussion is sahih? If you do then answer my questions. Why are you so scared to answer these simple questions? Instead you have been constantly lying here. Come on, man up and answer these simple questions. A simple Yes or No would do.

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing?

2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people?

3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing?

Look who is talking about poor understanding of the narration. Anyone who knows simple English will understand that Umar was amongst the people who were fleeing and secondly he did not stop anyone from running but instead blamed Allah for the cowardice of the people.

What a weird logic you bring? Why can't people who are running talk? Are you telling me that while running you cannot talk? Otherwise what is the point of this silly question 'how was it possible for him to met Umar when they both according to you were fleeing?' Seriously??? Is that the best reply you have got????

150 companions stood by the Prophet? Ok, dream on.

I never said that Allah says "they wont break the oath". That is what you made up.

I said it was possible for some of them to break their oath but they didn't as Allah confirmed in in verse 18:

Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest.

Read your previous reply and tell me what else to make out of it? So if they can break, wouldn't the condition be applicable on them to be rewarded in future? So how can you conclude that Allah was already pleased. Do you see the way you have twisted Allah's words? Stop manipulating Quranic verses as you are not doing a good thing.

"He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest." cannot mean everyone was a believer. Try harder and bring a translation which supports your point instead of presenting your assumptions here.

(wasalam)

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 19, 2013

(wasalam)

Stop your deception. You still haven't provided the translation where it says that everyone who swore was a believer but instead are going around in circles and misrepresenting verse 10 by forgetting the condition for the people who swore to receive the reward. If everyone was a believer then Allah would have simply said that. You are not understanding this simple verse or intentionally manipulating it to your liking.

You have highlighted some parts of the verse:
And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.

Isn't this exactly what I have been telling you all along. Only those who fulfill the promise will be rewarded. Isn't it enough evidence that not everyone was going to be rewarded? So your theory that everyone who swore was a believer and was rewarded is nullified completely.

(salam)

And Allah says they fulfilled their promise as mentioned in verse 18. You are just rejecting the clear verse of the Quran.

We read in Hayat al Qulub Vol 2:

“Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree…” [48:18]
…on the condition that after that they will never oppose whatever the Prophet says or does in future. After that the Almighty Allah revealed the following verses:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ ۚ فَمَنْ نَكَثَ فَإِنَّمَا يَنْكُثُ عَلَىٰ نَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ أَوْفَىٰ بِمَا عَاهَدَ عَلَيْهُ اللَّهَ فَسَيُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
“Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands. Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward.” [48:10]
Ali bin Ibrahim says that the Almighty Allah was not satisfied with them except on the condition that after that they will fulfill the divine covenant and never break it. Since the sequence of the Qur’an is changed it means this only, that the Almighty Allah will be satisfied with them only on these conditions. After that the Almighty Allah has condemned those Arabs who failed to attend the expedition of Hudaibiyah:

As to what happened following that event during the signing of the treaty at Hudaibiyah:
The Messenger of Allah (S) said: “If anyone of us joins you, I am aloof from him and we don’t need him. But the condition is that Muslims should remain free in Mecca and no one should harass them in expression of their faith and they must not be compelled to disbelief. They accepted this condition even though companions of the Prophet were not prepared to accept that and more than all, Umar was opposed to it.
He came to the Prophet and said: “O Messenger of Allah (S), are we not on the right?” “Yes, we are.” “Then why should we accept such humiliation?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “The Almighty Allah has promised victory to me and He never goes back on His words.” Umar said: “If 40 men had supported me, I would have rebelled against Muhammad.”
Suhail and Hafas returned to Quraish and conveyed the good news. Umar began to argue with the Prophet, “Did you not say that we will enter the Masjidul Haram and shave our heads?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “I didn’t say that it will occur this year. I had said that the Almighty Allah has promised me that I will conquer Mecca and perform the pilgrimage rituals and shave my head.
When other hypocrites began murmuring among themselves, the Prophet said, “If you don’t like the treaty, you should go and fight the Quraish.” So they went to Quraish who were ready to fight, but when they launched an attack, the companions fled from there in humiliation and passed by the Holy Prophet (S) who smiled and told Imam Ali (a.s.): “O Ali, pull out your sword and ‘welcome’ Quraish.”
When Imam Ali (a.s.) took out the sword and moved towards Quraish they returned saying: “O Ali, is Muhammad regretful for making peace with us?” “No, he is firm on his agreement.” At last, the companions came back to the Messenger of Allah (S) and excused themselves. The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Perhaps you think that I don’t recognize you.” [The author says: The Prophet spoke in this sharp tone with Umar when he criticized that the Prophet has gone back on his words. And Ibn Abil Hadid has by this derived that Umar ran away from Battle of Uhud also.]

If only you had read the verse properly you would have understood that Allah is only referring to Believers in the verse and not everyone who swore. Allah says He knew what was in their hearts when they were pledging under the tree which cannot only mean that they pledged with pure hearts, with honesty and sincerity. It is again your assumption. It works both ways as Allah knows of the good and the bad. Unless you think Allah knows only about the good nauzubillah.

You copy pasted some funny stuff from Hayat ul Qulub of Majlisi, a 17th Century Shia scholar, who says funny and absurd things about the Companions of the Prophet (saw). Umar was preparing an army to defeat the Prophet (saw)? Seriously brother do you believe such joke? Where is he getting his information from?

Notice how Majlisi twists, like you, the verses of Quran. Notice what He says:

“Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree…” [48:18]

…on the condition that after that they will never oppose whatever the Prophet says or does in future.

There is no condition in verse 18, the condition was in verse 10 that they should not break their oaths. This verse 18 confirms that they didn't break their oaths. Why is Majlisi making things up? Then Majlisi claims that verse 10 was revealed after this verse which is false and doesn't make sense.

I don't reject the Quranic verses but only rejected your manipulated translation of the verses. So stop your deception and bring a translation where it says that everyone who swore was a believer. I don't want to see any more of your made up fallacies which you incorrectly call as translation of a verse, The only reason why you are doing it is because you have no other verse which even comes close to proving that the two demi gods of yours were believers, One more lies of yours from page 1 of this thread has been exposed.

Two Demi God of ours? They become our 'demi-gods' because we consider them believers? This is coming from a person who gives divine attributes to 12 Infallible Imams?

Why are the questions meaningless? You don't think that the narration in discussion is sahih? If you do then answer my questions. Why are you so scared to answer these simple questions? Instead you have been constantly lying here. Come on, man up and answer these simple questions. A simple Yes or No would do.

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing?
2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people?
3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing?

Look who is talking about poor understanding of the narration. Anyone who knows simple English will understand that Umar was amongst the people who were fleeing and secondly he did not stop anyone from running but instead blamed Allah for the cowardice of the people.

What a weird logic you bring? Why can't people who are running talk? Are you telling me that while running you cannot talk? Otherwise what is the point of this silly question 'how was it possible for him to met Umar when they both according to you were fleeing?' Seriously??? Is that the best reply you have got????

150 companions stood by the Prophet? Ok, dream on.

I already quoted Sahih narrations that proves Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw). The narration you are talking does not prove that Umar was fleeing. Abu Qatada met Umar on his way (the direction they were fleeing was where the Prophet (saw) and his other Companions were so He met Umar on his way).

Read your previous reply and tell me what else to make out of it? So if they can break, wouldn't the condition be applicable on them to be rewarded in future? So how can you conclude that Allah was already pleased. Do you see the way you have twisted Allah's words? Stop manipulating Quranic verses as you are not doing a good thing.

But they didn't break their Hudaibiyah oaths as confirmed by Allah in verse 18 of Surah al-Fath.

"He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest." cannot mean everyone was a believer. Try harder and bring a translation which supports your point instead of presenting your assumptions here.
(wasalam)

That is just a desperate denial and rejection of what Allah says.

kbsquare · December 19, 2013

(salam)
There is nothing with wrong with the words. Ali is saying that Allah helps him in matters that he is not capable of doing. Don't we all say that Allah help us in difficult situations?

Prophet Yusif: I exculpate not myself, verily (one’s) self is wont to bid (him to) evil, except such as my Lord hath had mercy on; verily my Lord is Oft- forgiving, All-merciful. (12:53)

That is in the same tone as the second part of that sentence; Imam Ali (as); "the walking quran" is using the same analogy to proclaim his innocence not to say that he commits errors left and right like I have shown Umar has done during his caliphate.

Jazak Allah Al-khair

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 19, 2013

Prophet Yusif: I exculpate not myself, verily (one’s) self is wont to bid (him to) evil, except such as my Lord hath had mercy on; verily my Lord is Oft- forgiving, All-merciful. (12:53)

That is in the same tone as the second part of that sentence; Imam Ali (as); "the walking quran" is using the same analogy to proclaim his innocence not to say that he commits errors left and right like I have shown Umar has done during his caliphate.

Jazak Allah Al-khair

(salam)

So if someone who doesn't commit errors left and right becomes infallible?

P.S Brother I request you to read the biography of Umar to know him and his caliphate.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

**yam_110** · December 19, 2013

(salam)
And Allah says they fulfilled their promise as mentioned in verse 18. You are just rejecting the clear verse of the Quran.

(wasalam)

And where does Allah say that everyone fulfilled their promise in verse 18?

Read verse 18 again:

[Yusufali 48:18] Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory;

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 48:18]

The mention of believers among those who swore allegiance at Hudaybiya under the tree (see commentary of verse one and 10 of this surah) prove that there were believers as well as hypocrites among the swearers. As mentioned in the commentary of 4, 5 and 6 of this surah the believers are promised tranquillity (sakina) and victory in near future (at Khaybar).

Everyone can see who is rejecting the clear verse of the Quran, It is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran that everyone who swore was a believer. You are only making it up.

You copy pasted some funny stuff from Hayat ul Qulub of Majlisi, a 17th Century Shia scholar, who says funny and absurd things about the Companions of the Prophet (saw). Umar was preparing an army to defeat the Prophet (saw)? Seriously brother do you believe such joke? Where is he getting his information from?

Notice how Majlisi twists, like you, the verses of Quran. Notice what He says:

“Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree…” [48:18]
…on the condition that after that they will never oppose whatever the Prophet says or does in future.

There is no condition in verse 18, the condition was in verse 10 that they should not break their oaths. This verse 18 confirms that they didn't break their oaths. Why is Majlisi making things up? Then Majlisi claims that verse 10 was revealed after this verse which is false and doesn't make sense.

Why am I not surpised? Are you saying that Umar never doubted prophet hood that day?

You are forgetting the condition for one (from the people who swore under the tree) to receive Allah's reward. You can accuse one many times but without presenting the translation you have been quoting all along is not doing you any favours. You have still failed to present a translation of a verse where it says that everyone who swore under the tree was a believer. Whilst I have proved from Quran that only believers were rewarded with tranquility by Allah and not everyone.

Two Demi God of ours? They become our 'demi-gods' because we consider them believers? This is coming from a person who gives divine attributes to 12 Infallible Imams?

You consider them as believers but have no proof from Quran. You said you would prove from Quran about them having faith in their hearts but unfortunately you have failed yet again. Do you have any other verse to back the claim you made earlier?

Regarding, the divine attributes of our Imams, you wouldn't understand as you do not know Quran well and neither have you read important aspects of Islamic history (as you attested in your earlier post).

I already quoted Sahih narrations that proves Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw). The narration you are talking does not prove that Umar was fleeing. Abu Qatada met Umar on his way (the direction they were fleeing was where the Prophet (saw) and his other Companions were so He met Umar on his way).

That doesn't answer my questions. You can lie all you want and try diverting the topic to other narrations but first answer my questions if you consider the narration in discussion as authentic:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing?

2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people?

3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing?

Another gem of yours. The direction they were fleeing was where the Prophet (saw) and his other Companions were so He met Umar on his way.

Brother, please stop coming up with funny answers. It is kind of a give away to the reader that you know nothing about the incident in discussion. Do you know where Prophet (pbuh) was? If they were running towards to the Prophet (pbuh) then it wouldn't be called fleeing from the battlefield unless you can prove that the Prophet (pbuh) was not in the battlefield but waiting outside for them to come to him.

First you say that Abu Qutada was not running and now you tell me that he was running in the direction of the Prophet (pbuh). Even if I agree to this funny theory and assume that he was next to the Prophet (pbuh) while running why did Umar blame Allah and not try stopping him when he was running?

But they didn't break their Hudaibiyah oaths as confirmed by Allah in verse 18 of Surah al-Fath.

Stop saying verse 18 confirms that they didn't break their oath. You have not produced a single translation which states what you are making up about everyone who swore being a believer and Allah was pleased with everyone who swore. Present a translation which says everyone was a believer who swore under the tree. We will then talk further.

That is just a desperate denial and rejection of what Allah says.

No, actually your comments are the ones that are desperate denial and rejection of what Allah says. You still have not produced a translation in line with your thinking and you cannot. Your desperate attempts are futile.

kbsquare · December 19, 2013

(salam)
So if someone who doesn't commit errors left and right becomes infallible?

P.S Brother I request you to read the biography of Umar to know him and his caliphate.

No, I used the "left and right" to refer to Umar (ra). Infalliability is the idea that someone "wont" sin/commit error, that is those of whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì choose to purify and rid them of the touch of ibles:

Yusuf Ali:

[038:082] (Iblis) said: "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-

[038:083] "Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

"Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification". (Qur’an, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)

Sahih Muslim #31:5920-2: "Hussain Ibn Sabrah asked Zaid Ibn Arqam, "Who are the members of His household? Aren't His wives part of the members of his family?" Thereupon Zaid said, "His wives are members of his family [in a general sense], but (Islamically), the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of zakat is forbidden." Hussain asked, "Who are they?". Upon which Zaid said, "Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil, the offspring of Jaffer, and the offspring of Abbas." Hussain said "These are those for whom the acceptance of zakat is forbidden?" Zaid replied, "Yes."

Also, the great majority of the hadiths quoted by al-Tabari in his Tafsir describes Ahl al-Bayt as referring to Muhammad, Fatima, Ali, Hasan, and Husayn.

According to Sahih Muslim, Zaid then expanded on this hadith and stated this: Hussain Then asked: "Aren't the wives (Of the Prophet) included amongst the members of the household?" He said, "No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man [as his wife] for a certain period; he then divorces her, and she goes back to her parents and her people. The members of his household include his own self, and his kith, and kin, for whom the acceptance of zakat is prohibited."

- Sahih Muslim #31:5923

Narrated Aisha:

One day the Prophet (S) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husayn came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then ‘Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."

Sunni reference:

• Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (S), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

The verse

"Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)"

was revealed to the Prophet (S) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered ‘Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O’ Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification.”Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?”the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

Shia references:

“The Messenger of Allah has said, ‘Imamat (Leadership with

Divine Authority) is not proper for one without the following

qualities: Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Chastity that keeps him away from disobeying

Allah, ( b ) forbearance that gives him self-control against anger

and ( c ) good guardianship over his dependents like a kind

hearted father toward his children.’”

Al-Kafi The Book About People With Divine Authority H 1060, Ch. 104, h 8

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu’alla ibn Muhammad from

al-Hassan from Ahmad ibn ‘Umar who has said the following:

“Once I asked abu al-Hassan al-Rida, recipient of divine

supreme covenant, about the meaning of the words of Allah, the

Most Holy, the Most High, ‘We gave the book as an inheritance

to Our chosen servants . . .’ (35:32). The Imam said, ‘Such

people are the children of Fatimah, recipient of divine supreme

covenant, those “exceeding in virtue” are ‘A’immah, recipient of

divine supreme covenant, the “moderate” ones are those who

recognize the Imam and those who are “unjust against their own

souls” are the ones who do not recognize their Imam.’”

Al-Kafi The Book About People With Divine Authority H 559, Ch. 24, h3

Imaam Al-Saadiq (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said:“...He is the remainder from Aadam (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), the best (ones) from the progeny of Nooh (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), the chosen one from the family (ahl) of Ibraaheem (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), and the offspring from Ismaa`eel, and the elite (ones) from the lineage (`itrah) of Muhammad (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã), He has always been looked after by the eyes of Allaah who protects him and guards him with his curtain, he is expelled from the ropes of Iblees, and he is a solder he pushes away from approaching twilight. And all immorality (fisq) and evil is discharged from him, he is free deformities, he is veiled from diseases, he is ma`soom from (any) minor sin, and he is preserved from all (types) of filth (fawaaHish)...”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205

Ameer Al-Mu’mineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: “Verily Allaah (ÊÈÇÑß æ ÊÚÇáì) has purified us and (made) us infallible (`iSmunaa), and made us witnesses upon his creations, and his proof on his earth, and made us with the Qur’aan, and made the Qur’aan with us. We she not separate from it (The Qur’aan) nor shall it (the Qur’aan) separate from us”

Source:

1. Al-Sadooq, Kamaal Al-Deen, vol. 1, ch. 22, pg. 240, hadeeth # 63

Ameer Al-Mu’mineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: “Verily Allaah (ÊÈÇÑß æ ÊÚÇáì) has purified us and (made) us infallible (`iSmunaa), and made us witnesses upon his creations, and his proof on his earth, and made us with the Qur’aan, and made the Qur’aan with us. We she not separate from it (The Qur’aan) nor shall it (the Qur’aan) separate from us”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205

The 3 caliphs if anything have shown that they do not belong to the group of the imam's nor were they ever purified from the touch of ibles either by hadith or quran. Regardless, I have read about the biography of Umar (ra); nothing against the dude I just choose to follow better not a select group that were selected via very questionable means and somehow they are hujjah on me to follow; where no quranic verse or hadith would back this idea up. However, this is digressing from the topic at hand.

Jazak Allah al khair

Edited December 19, 2013 by kbsquare

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 19, 2013

(wasalam)
And where does Allah say that everyone fulfilled their promise in verse 18?

(salam)

18. Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory;

If any of them didn't fulfill their Hudaibiyah oaths then provide evidence for your claims. Allah would have mentioned it but Allah never talks about anyone breaking their Hudaibiyah oaths.

Read verse 18 again:

[Yusufali 48:18] Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory;
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 48:18]
The mention of believers among those who swore allegiance at Hudaybiya under the tree (see commentary of verse one and 10 of this surah) prove that there were believers as well as hypocrites among the swearers. As mentioned in the commentary of 4, 5 and 6 of this surah the believers are promised tranquillity (sakina) and victory in near future (at Khaybar).

Everyone can see who is rejecting the clear verse of the Quran, It is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran that everyone who swore was a believer. You are only making it up.

You are underlining/bolding the words of Pooya/Ali as if they are the words of Allah or important than verses of Quran. He is just making assumptions like you without providing any evidence.

If there hypocrites then provide evidence that there were hypocrites. Allah didn't know about them, the Prophet (saw) didn't know about them but Mr.Yam110 and Pooya/Ali knows about the hypocrites?

Why am I not surpised? Are you saying that Umar never doubted prophet hood that day?

You are forgetting the condition for one (from the people who swore under the tree) to receive Allah's reward. You can accuse one many times but without presenting the translation you have been quoting all along is not doing you any favours. You have still failed to present a translation of a verse where it says that everyone who swore under the tree was a believer. Whilst I have proved from Quran that only believers were rewarded with tranquility by Allah and not everyone.

And you failed to provide any evidence that there were disbelievers among the 1400.

No, Umar didn't doubt Prophethood.

He asked the Prophet (saw): Aren't you the messenger of Allah ? The Prophet (saw) said: Yes I am.

Then Umar asked aren't we on the right path and the enemies on the wrong? The Prophet (saw) said: Yes it is

Umar said: Then why should we accept the conditions put by the enemies of Islam.

The Prophet (saw) later called Umar and gave him the glad tidings of victory. Upon hearing this Umar became very happy and regretted his former attitude.

How is this called doubting the Prophethood? The Prophet (saw) didn't make Takfir or him or condemned him to hell but some Takfiris who claim to be more knowledgeable than the Prophet (saw) makes Takfir of Prophet's (saw) companion.

You consider them as believers but have no proof from Quran. You said you would prove from Quran about them having faith in their hearts but unfortunately you have failed yet again. Do you have any other verse to back the claim you made earlier?

Allah considers them believers. You don't, since you claim to know more than Allah.

Regarding, the divine attributes of our Imams, you wouldn't understand as you do not know Quran well and neither have you read important aspects of Islamic history (as you attested in your earlier post).

It is very clear on this thread who is rejecting the verses of Quran.

That doesn't answer my questions. You can lie all you want and try diverting the topic to other narrations but first answer my questions if you consider the narration in discussion as authentic:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing?
2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people?
3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing?

Another gem of yours. The direction they were fleeing was where the Prophet (saw) and his other Companions were so He met Umar on his way.

Brother, please stop coming up with funny answers. It is kind of a give away to the reader that you know nothing about the incident in discussion. Do you know where Prophet (pbuh) was? If they were running towards to the Prophet (pbuh) then it wouldn't be called fleeing from the battlefield unless you can prove that the Prophet (pbuh) was not in the battlefield but waiting outside for them to come to him.

Abu Qatada was fleeing and He met Umar on his way. It doesn't mean Umar was fleeing. The direction they were fleeing was where the Prophet (saw) and other Muslims were and Abu Qatada met Umar on his way.

I am not making this up. There are narrations that proves this.

Narrated Abu 'Is-haq:

A man asked Al-Bara', "O Abu '`Umara! Did you all flee on the day (of the battle) of Hunain?" He replied, "No, by Allah! Allah's Messenger (saw) did not flee, but his young unarmed companions passed by the archers of the tribe of Hawazin and Bani Nasr whose arrows hardly missed a target, and they threw arrows at them hardly missing a shot. So the Muslims retreated towards the Prophet (saw) while he was riding his white mule which was being led by his cousin Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith bin `Abdul Muttalib. The Prophet (saw) dismounted and invoked Allah for victory; then he said, 'I am the Prophet, without a lie; I am the son of `Abdul Muttalib, and then he arranged his companions in rows." [sahih Bukhari]

First you say that Abu Qutada was not running and now you tell me that he was running in the direction of the Prophet (pbuh). Even if I agree to this funny theory and assume that he was next to the Prophet (pbuh) while running why did Umar blame Allah and not try stopping him when he was running?

Why did Umar not stop people from running? What type of silly question is this. The narration doesn't mention everything. The Prophet (saw) was the leader and He asked Abbas to call on Muslims.

Stop saying verse 18 confirms that they didn't break their oath. You have not produced a single translation which states what you are making up about everyone who swore being a believer and Allah was pleased with everyone who swore. Present a translation which says everyone was a believer who swore under the tree. We will then talk further.

Allah says they fulfilled their oaths. You reject this and claim that they didn't.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 19, 2013

No, I used the "left and right" to refer to Umar (ra).

(salam)

I know, so I asked if someone doesn't commit errors left and right does he become infallible?

Infalliability is the idea that someone "wont" sin/commit error, that is those of whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì choose to purify and rid them of the touch of ibles:

Yusuf Ali:
[038:082] (Iblis) said: "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-

[038:083] "Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

"Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification". (Qur’an, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)

The verse doesn't say it is limited to 12 people or it is only for infallibles. Rather it says "Except the sincere and purified servants".

The verse 33 of Ahzab doesn't prove infallibility of any one. Allah tells them to read the Quran, pray, give Zakah because He intends to purify them. Just like Allah says to the believers that they should pray because Allah wants to purify them as mentioned in this verse:

Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful. (Maida 6)

in another place Allah says to the Muslims :

[Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet. (Anfal 11)

Sahih Muslim #31:5920-2: "Hussain Ibn Sabrah asked Zaid Ibn Arqam, "Who are the members of His household? Aren't His wives part of the members of his family?" Thereupon Zaid said, "His wives are members of his family [in a general sense], but (Islamically), the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of zakat is forbidden." Hussain asked, "Who are they?". Upon which Zaid said, "Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil, the offspring of Jaffer, and the offspring of Abbas." Hussain said "These are those for whom the acceptance of zakat is forbidden?" Zaid replied, "Yes."
Also, the great majority of the hadiths quoted by al-Tabari in his Tafsir describes Ahl al-Bayt as referring to Muhammad, Fatima, Ali, Hasan, and Husayn.

According to Sahih Muslim, Zaid then expanded on this hadith and stated this: Hussain Then asked: "Aren't the wives (Of the Prophet) included amongst the members of the household?" He said, "No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man [as his wife] for a certain period; he then divorces her, and she goes back to her parents and her people. The members of his household include his own self, and his kith, and kin, for whom the acceptance of zakat is prohibited."
- Sahih Muslim #31:5923
Narrated Aisha:
One day the Prophet (S) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husayn came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then ‘Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."
Sunni reference:
• Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (S), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.
The verse
"Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)"
was revealed to the Prophet (S) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered ‘Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O’ Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification.”Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?”the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."
Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663
Shia references:
“The Messenger of Allah has said, ‘Imamat (Leadership with
Divine Authority) is not proper for one without the following
qualities: Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Chastity that keeps him away from disobeying
Allah, ( b ) forbearance that gives him self-control against anger
and ( c ) good guardianship over his dependents like a kind
hearted father toward his children.’”
Al-Kafi The Book About People With Divine Authority H 1060, Ch. 104, h 8
Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu’alla ibn Muhammad from
al-Hassan from Ahmad ibn ‘Umar who has said the following:
“Once I asked abu al-Hassan al-Rida, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, about the meaning of the words of Allah, the
Most Holy, the Most High, ‘We gave the book as an inheritance
to Our chosen servants . . .’ (35:32). The Imam said, ‘Such
people are the children of Fatimah, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, those “exceeding in virtue” are ‘A’immah, recipient of
divine supreme covenant, the “moderate” ones are those who
recognize the Imam and those who are “unjust against their own
souls” are the ones who do not recognize their Imam.’”
Al-Kafi The Book About People With Divine Authority H 559, Ch. 24, h3
Imaam Al-Saadiq (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said:“...He is the remainder from Aadam (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), the best (ones) from the progeny of Nooh (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), the chosen one from the family (ahl) of Ibraaheem (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã), and the offspring from Ismaa`eel, and the elite (ones) from the lineage (`itrah) of Muhammad (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã), He has always been looked after by the eyes of Allaah who protects him and guards him with his curtain, he is expelled from the ropes of Iblees, and he is a solder he pushes away from approaching twilight. And all immorality (fisq) and evil is discharged from him, he is free deformities, he is veiled from diseases, he is ma`soom from (any) minor sin, and he is preserved from all (types) of filth (fawaaHish)...”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205
Ameer Al-Mu’mineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: “Verily Allaah (ÊÈÇÑß æ ÊÚÇáì) has purified us and (made) us infallible (`iSmunaa), and made us witnesses upon his creations, and his proof on his earth, and made us with the Qur’aan, and made the Qur’aan with us. We she not separate from it (The Qur’aan) nor shall it (the Qur’aan) separate from us”
Source:
1. Al-Sadooq, Kamaal Al-Deen, vol. 1, ch. 22, pg. 240, hadeeth # 63

Ameer Al-Mu’mineen `Alee bin Abee Taalib (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: “Verily Allaah (ÊÈÇÑß æ ÊÚÇáì) has purified us and (made) us infallible (`iSmunaa), and made us witnesses upon his creations, and his proof on his earth, and made us with the Qur’aan, and made the Qur’aan with us. We she not separate from it (The Qur’aan) nor shall it (the Qur’aan) separate from us”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205

I don't know what these narrations from Sunni books have to do with topic. They don't prove infallibility of any one.

The 3 caliphs if anything have shown that they do not belong to the group of the imam's nor were they ever purified from the touch of ibles either by hadith or quran. Regardless, I have read about the biography of Umar (ra); nothing against the dude I just choose to follow better not a select group that were selected via very questionable means and somehow they are hujjah on me to follow; where no quranic verse or hadith would back this idea up. However, this is digressing from the topic at hand.
Jazak Allah al khair

Not following is different but calling him 'enemy of Islam' or 'disbeliever' is different and this is what Shia do. Are you one of them?

Edited December 19, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

kbsquare · December 19, 2013

(salam)

I know, so I asked if someone doesn't commit errors left and right does he become infallible?

The verse doesn't say it is limited to 12 people or it is only for infallibles. Rather it says "Except the sincere and purified servants".

The verse 33 of Ahzab doesn't prove infallibility of any one. Allah tells them to read the Quran, pray, give Zakah because He intends to purify them. Just like Allah says to the believers that they should pray because Allah wants to purify them as mentioned in this verse:

Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful. (Maida 6)

in another place Allah says to the Muslims :

[Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet. (Anfal 11)

I don't know what these narrations from Sunni books have to do with topic. They don't prove infallibility of any one.

Not following is different but calling him 'enemy of Islam' or 'disbeliever' is different and this is what Shia do. Are you one of them?

1). The 'Saheeh' narrations from the 'Saheeh' books prove that "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification". (Qur’an, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)

refers to the Ahlul bayt and they further cement who those Ahlul bayt members are, as they reveal when that verse came down. So, the these narrations have a lot to do with proving infalliability as purification of sin (the keeping away of ibles ([038:082]/[038:083))

2). you quote/translate this ayah incorrectly:

Chapter (5) sūrat l-māidah (The Table spread with Food)

Sahih International: O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.

Pickthall: O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.

Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Shakir: O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.

Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, when you are about to pray, wash your face and your hands along with the elbows and wipe your head and your feet to the ankles. If you experience a seminal discharge, manage to take (the required) bath. If you are sick, or on a journey, or have just defecated, or have had intercourse with women and cannot find any water, perform a tayammum by: touching clean natural earth with both palms and wiping (the upper part) of your face and (the back of) your hands. God does not want you to suffer hardship. He wants you to be purified. He wants to complete His favors to you so that perhaps you would give Him thanks.

Mohsin Khan: O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

Arberry: O believers, when you stand up to pray wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and your feet up to the ankles. If you are defiled, purify yourselves; but if you are sick or on a journey, or if any of you comes from the privy, or you have touched women, and you can find no water, then have recourse to wholesome dust and wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not desire to make any impediment for you; but He desires to purify you, and that He may complete His blessing upon you; haply you will be thankful.

This is Abundantly clear that the 'purification' is refering to that brought on by wudhu. where as the one I quoted is referring to a certain group; I am sure you can see the difference. The same argument stands for the ayah from anfal which is again about purification towards a means of an instrumental end; not something intrinsic as suggested by 33:33. You have proved nothing here.

3). "Not following is different but calling him 'enemy of Islam' or 'disbeliever' is different and this is what Shia do. Are you one of them?"

Since you are asking me a personal question as to what my beliefs are about the 3 caliphs. My opinion and attitude towards/of them is the exact same as that of what Imam Ali (AS) and what the rest of the ahlulbayt (AS)/Imam's(AS) maintained.

Jazak Allah al Khair

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 19, 2013

1). The 'Saheeh' narrations from the 'Saheeh' books prove that "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification". (Qur’an, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)
refers to the Ahlul bayt and they further cement who those Ahlul bayt members are, as they reveal when that verse came down. So, the these narrations have a lot to do with proving infalliability as purification of sin (the keeping away of ibles ([038:082]/[038:083))

(salam)

I am not denying these narrations. However, none of them talks about infallibility. The arabic word for 'infallibility' is 'isma' but this word does not exist in the Quran.

2). you quote/translate this ayah incorrectly:
Chapter (5) sūrat l-māidah (The Table spread with Food)
Sahih International: O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.
Pickthall: O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
Shakir: O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.
Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, when you are about to pray, wash your face and your hands along with the elbows and wipe your head and your feet to the ankles. If you experience a seminal discharge, manage to take (the required) bath. If you are sick, or on a journey, or have just defecated, or have had intercourse with women and cannot find any water, perform a tayammum by: touching clean natural earth with both palms and wiping (the upper part) of your face and (the back of) your hands. God does not want you to suffer hardship. He wants you to be purified. He wants to complete His favors to you so that perhaps you would give Him thanks.
Mohsin Khan: O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.
Arberry: O believers, when you stand up to pray wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and your feet up to the ankles. If you are defiled, purify yourselves; but if you are sick or on a journey, or if any of you comes from the privy, or you have touched women, and you can find no water, then have recourse to wholesome dust and wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not desire to make any impediment for you; but He desires to purify you, and that He may complete His blessing upon you; haply you will be thankful.

This is Abundantly clear that the 'purification' is refering to that brought on by wudhu. where as the one I quoted is referring to a certain group; I am sure you can see the difference. The same argument stands for the ayah from anfal which is again about purification towards a means of an instrumental end; not something intrinsic as suggested by 33:33. You have proved nothing here.

3). "Not following is different but calling him 'enemy of Islam' or 'disbeliever' is different and this is what Shia do. Are you one of them?"
Since you are asking me a personal question as to what my beliefs are about the 3 caliphs. My opinion and attitude towards/of them is the exact same as that of what Imam Ali (as) and what the rest of the ahlulbayt (AS)/Imam's(AS) maintained.

Jazak Allah al Khair

There is no difference brother. In verse 33:33 Allah intends to purify them if they 'read the Quran, establish prayer, give Zakah etc'. In the verses I quoted they are the same. Allah intends to purify the Muslims if they 'establish prayer, do wudhu etc'.

**yam_110** · December 19, 2013

(salam)

18. Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers when they swore Fealty to thee under the Tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down Tranquillity to them; and He rewarded them with a speedy Victory;

If any of them didn't fulfill their Hudaibiyah oaths then provide evidence for your claims. Allah would have mentioned it but Allah never talks about anyone breaking their Hudaibiyah oaths.

(wasalam)

Please stop assuming that everyone who swore fulfilled their oath. If that was the case Allah would have mentioned that Allah's good pleasure was on everyone who swore. You cannot seem to understand this simple difference or you are deliberately playing with the words to prove your point. Unfortunately, it is not working.

You are underlining/bolding the words of Pooya/Ali as if they are the words of Allah or important than verses of Quran. He is just making assumptions like you without providing any evidence.

If there hypocrites then provide evidence that there were hypocrites. Allah didn't know about them, the Prophet (saw) didn't know about them but Mr.Yam110 and Pooya/Ali knows about the hypocrites?

You are only good at assuming things. Allah's words are clear that only believers received Allah's reward. This is a sufficient proof to refute your assumptions.

And by the way, we are all still waiting to see the translation which supports your claim that everyone was rewarded. I have asked you so many times now. You have failed miserably in supporting your assumption.

Allah's words are quite clear that only believers will receive the reward so what I & Pooya Ali have stated is completely as per Allah's words. But you my friend have not been able to support your words by bringing any translation which states what you are claiming.

And you failed to provide any evidence that there were disbelievers among the 1400.

No, Umar didn't doubt Prophethood.

He asked the Prophet (saw): Aren't you the messenger of Allah ? The Prophet (saw) said: Yes I am.
Then Umar asked aren't we on the right path and the enemies on the wrong? The Prophet (saw) said: Yes it is
Umar said: Then why should we accept the conditions put by the enemies of Islam.

The Prophet (saw) later called Umar and gave him the glad tidings of victory. Upon hearing this Umar became very happy and regretted his former attitude.

How is this called doubting the Prophethood? The Prophet (saw) didn't make Takfir or him or condemned him to hell but some Takfiris who claim to be more knowledgeable than the Prophet (saw) makes Takfir of Prophet's (saw) companion.

Have you not read anything I have posted so far? Wasn't it enough that the verse implies only on believers and the fact that treaty of Hudabiyah brought out the hypocrites in the open is a clear proof. You on the other hand have not presented the translation to support your claim. So stop dreaming and come back to reality.

Oh man. You are seriously lying big time now. Haven't you read the hadith where Umar himself confesses that he had doubts about the Prophet on that day? Do you see how low you have stooped to deny historical facts? Read Saheeh Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 367 where he asks Abu Bakr "'O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet?"

Moreover, we find that he confessed later on about it:

“It was a day when I doubted the wisdom of Muhammad (s) as never before, and I was nigh recanting from the faith.” [Ibnul Athir’s Tarikh al-Kamil, vol.2, p.84, Tarikh al-Khamis, vol. 2, p.22, 32, Madarijun Nubuwwa, vol.2, p.286-287, al-Waqidi’s Kitabul Maghazi, vol. 2, p.607, Ali Naqi’s History of Islam, p.357-362.]

Well the Quran says of those who question the judgment of the prophet (pbuh) although from a different incident.

[24:47] They say, "We believe in Allah and in the messenger, and we obey": but even after that, some of them turn away: they are not (really) Believers.

[24:48] When they are summoned to Allah and His messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come).

[24:49] But if the right is on their side, they come to him with all submission.

[24:50] Is it that there is a disease in their hearts? or do they doubt, or are they in fear, that Allah and His Messenger will deal unjustly with them? Nay, it is they themselves who do wrong.

[24:51] The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity.

Allah considers them believers. You don't, since you claim to know more than Allah.

It is very clear on this thread who is rejecting the verses of Quran.

Again, refuted above already. Please provide a translation where it says that everyone was a believer until then you are the one twisting Allah's words.

Abu Qatada was fleeing and He met Umar on his way. It doesn't mean Umar was fleeing. The direction they were fleeing was where the Prophet (saw) and other Muslims were and Abu Qatada met Umar on his way.

I am not making this up. There are narrations that proves this.

Narrated Abu 'Is-haq:
A man asked Al-Bara', "O Abu '`Umara! Did you all flee on the day (of the battle) of Hunain?" He replied, "No, by Allah! Allah's Messenger (saw) did not flee, but his young unarmed companions passed by the archers of the tribe of Hawazin and Bani Nasr whose arrows hardly missed a target, and they threw arrows at them hardly missing a shot. So the Muslims retreated towards the Prophet (saw) while he was riding his white mule which was being led by his cousin Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith bin `Abdul Muttalib. The Prophet (saw) dismounted and invoked Allah for victory; then he said, 'I am the Prophet, without a lie; I am the son of `Abdul Muttalib, and then he arranged his companions in rows." [sahih Bukhari]

Why did Umar not stop people from running? What type of silly question is this. The narration doesn't mention everything. The Prophet (saw) was the leader and He asked Abbas to call on Muslims.

The narration you have posted above only shows that the Prophet (pbuh) was in the middle and not the direction in which Abu Qutada ran.

Please stop making things up. Present a narration which states that Abu Qutada ran in the direction of the prophet (pbuh) and met Umar then.

Finally, I see that you have answered the questions albeit partially. The summary of them:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing? Your answer - YES

2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people? Your answer - YES

3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing? Still not answered clearly

You are lying again. The narration is clearly telling us that Umar blamed Allah for the fleeing of the people. How does this become a silly question if it exposes the hypocrisy of some people? If you deny present a narration which denies that and shows that Umar stopped people from running.

Allah says they fulfilled their oaths. You reject this and claim that they didn't.

Nope, it is only your assumption which has no ground. As mentioned many a times already, please present the translation of the verse where it is mentioned that everyone who swore was a believer. Until then you are the one rejecting Allah's words.

(wasalam)

Edited December 19, 2013 by yam_110

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 20, 2013

(wasalam)

Please stop assuming that everyone who swore fulfilled their oath. If that was the case Allah would have mentioned that Allah's good pleasure was on everyone who swore. You cannot seem to understand this simple difference or you are deliberately playing with the words to prove your point. Unfortunately, it is not working.

(salam)

I am not going to repeat myself. You have failed again again to provide evidence there were disbelievers among the 1400. The reason you reject the verse of Allah because the two best companions of the Prophet (saw) whom you hate and do Takfir of were present.

You are only good at assuming things. Allah's words are clear that only believers received Allah's reward. This is a sufficient proof to refute your assumptions.
And by the way, we are all still waiting to see the translation which supports your claim that everyone was rewarded. I have asked you so many times now. You have failed miserably in supporting your assumption.

Allah's words are quite clear that only believers will receive the reward so what I & Pooya Ali have stated is completely as per Allah's words. But you my friend have not been able to support your words by bringing any translation which states what you are claiming.

You failed so many times to provide any evidence that any of those 1400 were disbelievers. You then copy-pasted from Majlisi who twisted the words of Allah, after him you took help of Pooya-Ali who speaks without any evidence. Sorry but you still failed to prove your point.

I never said 'disbelievers' or 'hypocrites' receive reward from Allah. This is evidence against you. Allah says "he who fulfill, he will be rewarded" is Allah telling that to the hypocrites and disbelievers or to the believers? If there were hypocrites and disbelievers Allah would have said "he who fulfill the oath, from the believers, He will reward him". Those who pledged were believers and fulfilled their oaths and Allah confirmed it in verse 18 of Surah al-Fath. It is your job to provide evidence that any of them were disbelievers.

Have you not read anything I have posted so far? Wasn't it enough that the verse implies only on believers and the fact that treaty of Hudabiyah brought out the hypocrites in the open is a clear proof. You on the other hand have not presented the translation to support your claim. So stop dreaming and come back to reality.

Oh man. You are seriously lying big time now. Haven't you read the hadith where Umar himself confesses that he had doubts about the Prophet on that day? Do you see how low you have stooped to deny historical facts? Read Saheeh Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 367 where he asks Abu Bakr "'O Abu Bakr! Isn't he truly Allah's Prophet?"

Moreover, we find that he confessed later on about it:
“It was a day when I doubted the wisdom of Muhammad (s) as never before, and I was nigh recanting from the faith.” [Ibnul Athir’s Tarikh al-Kamil, vol.2, p.84, Tarikh al-Khamis, vol. 2, p.22, 32, Madarijun Nubuwwa, vol.2, p.286-287, al-Waqidi’s Kitabul Maghazi, vol. 2, p.607, Ali Naqi’s History of Islam, p.357-362.]

Well the Quran says of those who question the judgment of the prophet (pbuh) although from a different incident.
[24:47] They say, "We believe in Allah and in the messenger, and we obey": but even after that, some of them turn away: they are not (really) Believers.
[24:48] When they are summoned to Allah and His messenger, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come).
[24:49] But if the right is on their side, they come to him with all submission.
[24:50] Is it that there is a disease in their hearts? or do they doubt, or are they in fear, that Allah and His Messenger will deal unjustly with them? Nay, it is they themselves who do wrong.
[24:51] The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity.

People with Takfiri logic will never see things objectively but they see everything with emotion and hatred.

Umar was simply upset with the decision and asked those questions (he wasn't doubting the Prophethood of Allah), he was coming to the point with those questions and even after that he regretted his attitude. The Prophet (saw) later called him and gave him the glad tidings (was Prophet giving glad tidings to a 'hypocrite' and 'disbeliever'? Didn't he know that the person is a 'hypocrite' and 'disbeliever'? The Prophet of Allah didn't know but Mr.Yam110 knows). The Prophet (saw) didn't even got angry and didn't think. like some Takfiris think, he didn't condemn him to hell like some takfiris do, instead he later called him and gave him the glad tidings and Umar became very upon hearing it, as I said even after this Umar regretted his attitude. He would then, pray a lot, spend in charity, fast and prayer and free slaves in expiation for the attitude that he had. This is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari. Tell me are you more knowledgeable than the Messenger of Allah?

The narration you have posted above only shows that the Prophet (pbuh) was in the middle and not the direction in which Abu Qutada ran.

Please stop making things up. Present a narration which states that Abu Qutada ran in the direction of the prophet (pbuh) and met Umar then.

You have no idea what you talking about. I quoted a narration to prove my point that those who retreated moved towards the Prophet (saw) and Abu Qatada met Umar on his way. Besides that I already provided Sahih narrations that prove Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) but since you follow your desires and takfiri logic you reject it.

Finally, I see that you have answered the questions albeit partially. The summary of them:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing? Your answer - YES
2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people? Your answer - YES
3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing? Still not answered clearly

Already replied.

You are lying again. The narration is clearly telling us that Umar blamed Allah for the fleeing of the people. How does this become a silly question if it exposes the hypocrisy of some people? If you deny present a narration which denies that and shows that Umar stopped people from running.

Already presented narrations that prove Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw). You desperately rejected them.

**yam_110** · December 20, 2013

(salam)

I am not going to repeat myself. You have failed again again to provide evidence there were disbelievers among the 1400. The reason you reject the verse of Allah because the two best companions of the Prophet (saw) whom you hate and do Takfir of were present.

(wasalam)

Look who is talking about failing to provide evidence. I have asked you so many times and you still haven't presented a single translation where it says that everyone who swore was a believer, Bring me a translation which says the above and we will discuss this further until then you are the one who is manipulating the Verses of Quran to your liking.

For one final time again, my biggest proof is verse 18 which states that Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers which means reward was only for believers and in no way does it prove that everyone who swore was a believer.

I am only showing you what is written in Quran. If you don't like it then you must be reading anything but Quran.

You failed so many times to provide any evidence that any of those 1400 were disbelievers. You then copy-pasted from Majlisi who twisted the words of Allah, after him you took help of Pooya-Ali who speaks without any evidence. Sorry but you still failed to prove your point.

I never said 'disbelievers' or 'hypocrites' receive reward from Allah. This is evidence against you. Allah says "he who fulfill, he will be rewarded" is Allah telling that to the hypocrites and disbelievers or to the believers? If there were hypocrites and disbelievers Allah would have said "he who fulfill the oath, from the believers, He will reward him". Those who pledged were believers and fulfilled their oaths and Allah confirmed it in verse 18 of Surah al-Fath. It is your job to provide evidence that any of them were disbelievers.

You are falsely accusing me when you are the one who has been constantly dodging my question to present the translation of the verse where it says that everyone who swore was a believer. Everyone knows who is failing to provide evidence.

So again, where is the translation to prove your point?

Obviously disbelievers and hypocrites will not fulfill their oath which is why they are not believers. Why can't you understand this simple logic? Ohh wait, if you do understand this then you cannot defend your demi gods as there is no other verse which you can manipulate to prove your point. How unfortunate it is that you made a claim in the initial part of this thread and you still haven't been able to provide any verse which comes even close to proving your point. All you have been doing is to twist the words in this verse and claime that you have proved, Do you have no other verse which you can fall back on to prove your point?

I am sorry to say that what you have mentioned is not what Allah is saying. Allah has specifically promised believers a reward. So it's you who has to prove that everyone who swore was a believer and present a translation which we are so eager to see from such a long time which supports your stance (i.e if you have one).

People with Takfiri logic will never see things objectively but they see everything with emotion and hatred.

Umar was simply upset with the decision and asked those questions (he wasn't doubting the Prophethood of Allah), he was coming to the point with those questions and even after that he regretted his attitude. The Prophet (saw) later called him and gave him the glad tidings (was Prophet giving glad tidings to a 'hypocrite' and 'disbeliever'? Didn't he know that the person is a 'hypocrite' and 'disbeliever'? The Prophet of Allah didn't know but Mr.Yam110 knows). The Prophet (saw) didn't even got angry and didn't think. like some Takfiris think, he didn't condemn him to hell like some takfiris do, instead he later called him and gave him the glad tidings and Umar became very upon hearing it, as I said even after this Umar regretted his attitude. He would then, pray a lot, spend in charity, fast and prayer and free slaves in expiation for the attitude that he had. This is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari. Tell me are you more knowledgeable than the Messenger of Allah?

You have no idea what you talking about. I quoted a narration to prove my point that those who retreated moved towards the Prophet (saw) and Abu Qatada met Umar on his way. Besides that I already provided Sahih narrations that prove Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw) but since you follow your desires and takfiri logic you reject it.

Already replied.

Yes, that coming from you who is a master of takfiri logic and a hater of Prophet's family is an irony in itself.

Come on man. Let's finish one topic before you jump on another to diver the topic. What glad tidings are tou talking about? You are assuming things and thinking that I will play along with your assumptions. Unfortunately this is not happening.

Umar's confession is clear that he doubted Prophet's wisdom and action. The fact that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't order the open hypocrites to be killed doesn't meant that he didn't know about them. Please keep your weird logic to yourself and back your words with proofs.

Already presented narrations that prove Umar was of those who stood by the Prophet (saw). You desperately rejected them.

Firstly, you still haven't answered all my 3 simple questions completely. Secondly, the narrations you presented are from your own books and I am not bound to accept them even though I have not brought this point up this far to give you a chance to prove your point. Thirdly, you claimed that narrations don't tell us everything when it is very clear that Umar blamed Allah for the cowardice of the people but yet you somehow knew that Abu Qutada was running towards the Prophet (pbuh). How?

All this proves that you are a man who represents double standards. Either you present a narration to prove that Abu Qutada was running towards the Prophet (pbuh) or accept that you were lying. There is no third option.

And also, don't forget you still haven't answered my third question:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing? Your answer - YES

2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people? Your answer - YES

3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing? Still waiting for a clear answer

You cannot run for long. You will have to answer the third question in affirmative as the narration in your sahih book states that "Suddenly Abu Qutada while fleeing met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the order of Allah""

Please explain how it was an order of Allah to leave the Prophet (pbuh) alone in the battlefield amongst the enemies?

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 20, 2013

(wasalam)

Look who is talking about failing to provide evidence. I have asked you so many times and you still haven't presented a single translation where it says that everyone who swore was a believer, Bring me a translation which says the above and we will discuss this further until then you are the one who is manipulating the Verses of Quran to your liking.

For one final time again, my biggest proof is verse 18 which states that Allah's Good Pleasure was on the Believers which means reward was only for believers and in no way does it prove that everyone who swore was a believer.

I am only showing you what is written in Quran. If you don't like it then you must be reading anything but Quran.

You are falsely accusing me when you are the one who has been constantly dodging my question to present the translation of the verse where it says that everyone who swore was a believer. Everyone knows who is failing to provide evidence.

So again, where is the translation to prove your point?

Obviously disbelievers and hypocrites will not fulfill their oath which is why they are not believers. Why can't you understand this simple logic? Ohh wait, if you do understand this then you cannot defend your demi gods as there is no other verse which you can manipulate to prove your point. How unfortunate it is that you made a claim in the initial part of this thread and you still haven't been able to provide any verse which comes even close to proving your point. All you have been doing is to twist the words in this verse and claime that you have proved, Do you have no other verse which you can fall back on to prove your point?

I am sorry to say that what you have mentioned is not what Allah is saying. Allah has specifically promised believers a reward. So it's you who has to prove that everyone who swore was a believer and present a translation which we are so eager to see from such a long time which supports your stance (i.e if you have one).

Yes, that coming from you who is a master of takfiri logic and a hater of Prophet's family is an irony in itself.

Come on man. Let's finish one topic before you jump on another to diver the topic. What glad tidings are tou talking about? You are assuming things and thinking that I will play along with your assumptions. Unfortunately this is not happening.

Umar's confession is clear that he doubted Prophet's wisdom and action. The fact that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't order the open hypocrites to be killed doesn't meant that he didn't know about them. Please keep your weird logic to yourself and back your words with proofs.

Firstly, you still haven't answered all my 3 simple questions completely. Secondly, the narrations you presented are from your own books and I am not bound to accept them even though I have not brought this point up this far to give you a chance to prove your point. Thirdly, you claimed that narrations don't tell us everything when it is very clear that Umar blamed Allah for the cowardice of the people but yet you somehow knew that Abu Qutada was running towards the Prophet (pbuh). How?

All this proves that you are a man who represents double standards. Either you present a narration to prove that Abu Qutada was running towards the Prophet (pbuh) or accept that you were lying. There is no third option.

And also, don't forget you still haven't answered my third question:

1) Was Abu Qutada fleeing? Your answer - YES
2) While fleeing didn't he meet Umar amongst those people? Your answer - YES
3) Umar accepted that it was the order of Allah that people are fleeing? Still waiting for a clear answer

You cannot run for long. You will have to answer the third question in affirmative as the narration in your sahih book states that "Suddenly Abu Qutada while fleeing met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the order of Allah""
Please explain how it was an order of Allah to leave the Prophet (pbuh) alone in the battlefield amongst the enemies?

(bismillah)

You failed, and you will fail, to provide any evidence that there were disbelievers and hypocrites among the 1400. Allah says "those who are pledging to you, they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah, the Hands of Allah is over their hands, he who breaks will harm himself, he who fulfils will be rewarded". Is Allah saying "His hand is over the hand of the disbelievers and hypocrites"? Is Allah promising reward for the disbelievers and hypocrites? If there were hypocrites and disbelievers Allah would have said "he who fulfills the oath, from the believers, Allah reward him". Then Allah confirms that that they fulfilled their oaths and nothing about people breaking their Hudaibiyah oaths. But Mr.Yam110 knows more than Allah and claims there were hypocrites and disbelievers among them and not all of them fulfilled their oaths but Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Prophet (saw) didn't know that?

Earlier you claimed that since there is a condition that they "should not break the oaths" then it means there were hypocrites and disbelievers among them. This shows your poor understanding of the Quran. Allah gives condition to believers all over the Quran, even to the Prophet (saw). Moreover, even if anyone break their oaths, they don't become disbeliever according to Quran, but Takfiris, who follow their desires and oppose the Quran, claim otherwise.

Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful.(5:89)

Haters for Prophet Family? This is coming from a person who attributes false things to Ahlulbayt that they themselve never believed.

You accept part of our narrations about a topic and reject others that are more explicit and touches the same topic?

Prophet (saw) alone in the battlefield? So Ali also fled? The Authentic narrations say there were more than 150 Companions who stood by him and Umar was one of them. As I said it is hard to talk with people who have no information just making things up and follow their desires. And Just for your information even those who fled, Allah didn't call them disbelievers, like some Takfiris do but forgave them and about the battle of Hunain Allah says to the believers that even you fled because your great number pleased you, but still Allah gave you victory against the disbelievers.

Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing. (9:25)

Edited December 20, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

**yam_110** · December 21, 2013

(bismillah)

You failed, and you will fail, to provide any evidence that there were disbelievers and hypocrites among the 1400. Allah says "those who are pledging to you, they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah, the Hands of Allah is over their hands, he who breaks will harm himself, he who fulfils will be rewarded". Is Allah saying "His hand is over the hand of the disbelievers and hypocrites"? Is Allah promising reward for the disbelievers and hypocrites? If there were hypocrites and disbelievers Allah would have said "he who fulfills the oath, from the believers, Allah reward him". Then Allah confirms that that they fulfilled their oaths and nothing about people breaking their Hudaibiyah oaths. But Mr.Yam110 knows more than Allah and claims there were hypocrites and disbelievers among them and not all of them fulfilled their oaths but Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and his Prophet (saw) didn't know that?

Earlier you claimed that since there is a condition that they "should not break the oaths" then it means there were hypocrites and disbelievers among them. This shows your poor understanding of the Quran. Allah gives condition to believers all over the Quran, even to the Prophet (saw). Moreover, even if anyone break their oaths, they don't become disbeliever according to Quran, but Takfiris, who follow their desires and oppose the Quran, claim otherwise.

Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful.(5:89)

Haters for Prophet Family? This is coming from a person who attributes false things to Ahlulbayt that they themselve never believed.

You accept part of our narrations about a topic and reject others that are more explicit and touches the same topic?

Prophet (saw) alone in the battlefield? So Ali also fled? The Authentic narrations say there were more than 150 Companions who stood by him and Umar was one of them. As I said it is hard to talk with people who have no information just making things up and follow their desires. And Just for your information even those who fled, Allah didn't call them disbelievers, like some Takfiris do but forgave them and about the battle of Hunain Allah says to the believers that even you fled because your great number pleased you, but still Allah gave you victory against the disbelievers.

Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing. (9:25)

(salam)

Listen up Mr. Abul Hussain Hassani. You are wasting my time here by going around in circles. I have already produced evidence from Quran that only the believers are being addressed in verse 18 and not everyone as you falsely claimed. If you want to prove your point then bring a translation of verse 18 which says that everyone who swore was rewarded with Allah's good pleasure. You have failed miserably in bringing any translation which proves your point. I have waited so long and yet you have done nothing but present your assumptions by manipulating the clear Quranic verses which is completely unacceptable. I am not going to discuss this any further until you bring me a proof as I am not here to refute your assumptions. As far as hypocrites and disbelievers go, read the Quran and the history of the event of Hudabaiyah to understand their presence.

You are doing a clear takfir to save your demi gods and blaming others for it. Nice try but everyone knows that you have so far failed to provide the translation I have been asking for. So stop your deception.

What do you mean by false things they never believed?

First of all I am talking about a whole hadith and not part of it. So stop lying. Hadith 611 from Bukhari which we are discussing about clearly states that Abu Qutada met Umar while running and Umar blamed Allah for the cowardice of the people. Which part am I denying? Everyone saw who lied when you said that Abu Qutada wasn't fleeing. I am only showing you what is written in your own books.

Authentic narrations? Excuse me? You can boast all you want but the proof is something which you have failed to provide. You have also failed to answer my 3 simple questions completely so far and tried deviating the topic. That in itself is a proof that you are following the sunnah of your demi gods and running away when faced with a difficult situation. BRAVO!!! They will be very happy to see this if they were alive today.

So if you want to continue this discussion then answer the below questions or don't bother replying as you are only wasting my time.

1) Present the much awaited translation of verse 18 which states that everyone who swore was rewarded to prove your point.

2) Any other verse from Quran to prove that faith was in the hearts of those who you promised to defend from Quran earlier in this thread.

3) Answer the last question in my earlier posts which you have failed to answer about Umar laying the blame on Allah for people running from the battlefield. So again, Please explain how it was an order of Allah to leave the Prophet (pbuh) alone in the battlefield amongst the enemies?

4) Why did you deny that Umar doubted Prophet's wisdom when he himself accepts it and it is present in your own books?

As I said earlier, we will continue this discussion only if you are able to answer the above questions otherwise this is just a waste of time as nothing fruitful is being derived.

(wasalam)

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 21, 2013

(bismillah)

Ok we leave it for the readers to judge.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

Blacknight · December 21, 2013

(bismillah)
Ok we leave it for the readers to judge.

This reader judges in your favour brother because mr yam HAS TO PROVE HIS THEORY of who the hypocrites were?!?

Quran doesn't mention who the disbelievers were...........but yam does........so am waiting for yam to get PROOF from Quran.........instead of going around in a circular argument the ONUS is on yam to prove otherwise he is lying and doing tahreef of Quran

ASTAGHFIRULLAH

Malagniman · December 21, 2013

(bismillah)

(salam)

This reader judges in your favour brother because mr yam HAS TO PROVE HIS THEORY of who the hypocrites were?!?
Quran doesn't mention who the disbelievers were...........but yam does........so am waiting for yam to get PROOF from Quran.........instead of going around in a circular argument the ONUS is on yam to prove otherwise he is lying and doing tahreef of Quran

ASTAGHFIRULLAH

I saw a child comic named The Mask and that masked man always said SMOKING

I hope the point is clear, everyone has his own glasses :rolleyes:

**yam_110** · December 22, 2013

(bismillah)

Ok we leave it for the readers to judge.

(salam)

Yes, we will let them see. But you have failed to provide a translation of the verse which says everyone will be rewarded neither have you answered my questions nor have you presented other Quranic verses which you claimed to prove that they were believers.

This reader judges in your favour brother because mr yam HAS TO PROVE HIS THEORY of who the hypocrites were?!?
Quran doesn't mention who the disbelievers were...........but yam does........so am waiting for yam to get PROOF from Quran.........instead of going around in a circular argument the ONUS is on yam to prove otherwise he is lying and doing tahreef of Quran
ASTAGHFIRULLAH

It doesn't matter who you support because you are clearly going against Quran. The verse in discussion is only rewarding believers and not everyone. So it is you guys who have to first prove that everyone who swore was a believer. Until then you guys are the ones manipulating the Quranic verses.

(wasalam)

**yam_110** · December 25, 2013

(salam)

Brother Abul Hussain Hassani, I am still waiting for your proofs. You said in post no. 42 and I quote:

Tens of verses but here is one

But all I have seen is one verse which does not tell us that everyone who swore was a believer. Instead it tells us that believers received Allah's good pleasure. I am yet to see a translation of the verse telling us that everyone who swore was a believer and he was worthy of Allah's good pleasure.

As you were the one who promised to prove from Quran about the faith of few people, the onus is on you to produce evidence for us all to see that everyone who swore was a believer.

And also, where are the other verses if there are tens of them?

(wasalam)

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 25, 2013

(salam)

Brother Abul Hussain Hassani, I am still waiting for your proofs. You said in post no. 42 and I quote:

But all I have seen is one verse which does not tell us that everyone who swore was a believer. Instead it tells us that believers received Allah's good pleasure. I am yet to see a translation of the verse telling us that everyone who swore was a believer and he was worthy of Allah's good pleasure.

As you were the one who promised to prove from Quran about the faith of few people, the onus is on you to produce evidence for us all to see that everyone who swore was a believer.

And also, where are the other verses if there are tens of them?

(wasalam)

(bismillah)

Already answered.

**Haydar Husayn** · December 25, 2013

Abu Hussain Hassani, do you believe that since if someone is a believer at a certain time, and the Quran refers to them as a believers at that time, then it is impossible for them to become hypocrites or apostates later on?

Also, were there still hypocrites in Medina at that time? If so, how did the Prophet (pbuh) manage to exclude them from coming with him?

Rasul · December 25, 2013

Abu Hussain Hassani, do you believe that since if someone is a believer at a certain time, and the Quran refers to them as a believers at that time, then it is impossible for them to become hypocrites or apostates later on?
Also, were there still hypocrites in Medina at that time? If so, how did the Prophet (pbuh) manage to exclude them from coming with him?

Exactly, people do change.

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 25, 2013

Abu Hussain Hassani, do you believe that since if someone is a believer at a certain time, and the Quran refers to them as a believers at that time, then it is impossible for them to become hypocrites or apostates later on?

(bismillah)

it is not impossible.

But if Shia claim that apostates were those who rejected the 'divine appointment' of Ali then it is rejected because Sunnis believe 'divine appointment of Ali' does not exist in the Quran nor in the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) nor Ali himself ever claimed to be divinely appointed leader.

Also, were there still hypocrites in Medina at that time? If so, how did the Prophet (pbuh) manage to exclude them from coming with him?

How did the Prophet (saw) manage to exclude them? Allah knows best.

The Quran refers to those who pledged under the tree as 'believers who fulfilled their oaths, Allah become pleased with them, knew what was in their hearts so He sent Tranquility upon them'. If anyone claims that people who pledged under the tree turned 'apostates' later in their lives then they need to provide evidence for each individual who turned apostate.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

**Haydar Husayn** · December 25, 2013

(bismillah)
it is not impossible.

Ok, so the commonly-quoted verses therefore do not preclude the possibility of the Sahaba becoming apostates.

But if Shia claim that apostates were those who rejected the 'divine appointment' of Ali then it is rejected because Sunnis believe 'divine appointment of Ali' does not exist in the Quran nor in the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) nor Ali himself ever claimed to be divinely appointed leader.

It's true that the divine appointment of Ali is not explicitly in the Quran, but then it is very likely that the divine appointment of many Prophets and Kings of the past were not in previous scriptures either. Divine appointment is typically not proven by referring to scripture, so this point is moot. However, the principles of what kind of person succeeds Prophets is laid down in the Qur'an, and there is no precedent for believers choosing a leader from among themselves.

Regarding what you consider to be in the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), well, that has been determined by people already wedded to certain beliefs, which include the belief that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't appoint anybody (or if he did, it was Abu Bakr). However, there are enough hints lying around that can be pieced together to see all is not how orthodox Sunnism would have us believe. In addition, the Imams of the Ahlulbayt clearly taught that Imam Ali (as) was divinely appointed, and I'm sure they knew better about the Sunnah that anyone else, as both logic and external testimonies can attest. Now, I know you believe that the Shias have concocted a whole bunch of lies and attributed them to the Imams, but this makes little historical or logical sense, as anyone who isn't an orthodox Sunni can easily see.

How did the Prophet (saw) manage to exclude them? Allah knows best.

Indeed, however this is something worth thinking about since we know the Prophet (pbuh) didn't know who the hypocrites were, and they included several prominent members of the Muslim community.

The Quran refers to those who pledged under the tree as 'believers who fulfilled their oaths, Allah become pleased with them, knew what was in their hearts so He sent Tranquility upon them'. If anyone claims that people who pledged under the tree 'apostated' later in their lives then they need to provide evidence for each individual who apostated.

It is possible to praise a certain group, without praising every member of that group.

Regarding proof for apostasy, this isn't particularly difficult. It would suffice to refer to the hadiths about going against the Imam of one's time, or numerous verses in the Qur'an that mention obeying Allah and His Messenger. Once someone is clear that Imam Ali (as) was the rightful heir to the Prophet (pbuh), then the apostasy of various individuals is assured.

It's also worth reflecting on the following hadith:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.488

Narrated al-Musaiyab:

I met al-Bara bin 'Azib and said (to him). "May you live prosperously! You enjoyed the company of the Prophet and gave him the Pledge of allegiance (of al-Hudaibiya) under the Tree (of al-Hudaybiyah)." On that, al-Bara' said, "O my nephew! You do not know what we have done after him (i.e. his death)."

Clearly this companion didn't see things quite as you do in regard to making the pledge at Hudaibiya. Interestingly, this companion was also said to be a companion of Imam Ali (as).

Ethics · December 25, 2013

Indeed, however this is something worth thinking about since we know the Prophet (pbuh) didn't know who the hypocrites were, and they included several prominent members of the Muslim community.

If the prophet didnt know who the hypocrites were, what about all those hadith we have of the events to come? What about all the hadiths where the prophet specifically gave position to Imam Ali A.S to take charge specifically because as we see in history, in some events if Imam A.S for example, wasnt there, then the prophets instructions would have been pointless. So how can one imply the prophet did not know who the hyprocrites were? This is only one example with the Imam, but others can be seen with other "loyal" companions. Im talking specifically about the shia point of view. Yes I understand, the prophet did not know some of the hypocrites, but to say all I think is wrong. Even the verse mentions "some"...

“And among them (the hypocrites) are men who hurt the Prophet and say, ‘He is (lending his) ear (to every news).’ Say, ‘He listens to what is best for you, he believes in Allah, has faith in the believers, and is a mercy to those of you who believe.’ But those who hurt Allah’s Messenger will have a painful torment.”

“And among the desert people (A‘arab) around you, O believers, there are some hypocrites, and so are there some among the people of Madina. They exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy. Even you (Prophet Muhammad) know them not. We know them; We shall punish them twice and thereafter they shall be brought to a great, horrible torment.”

Edited December 25, 2013 by PureEthics

**Haydar Husayn** · December 25, 2013

Ok, he didn't know who all of the hypocrites were. Happy?

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 25, 2013

Ok, so the commonly-quoted verses therefore do not preclude the possibility of the Sahaba becoming apostates.

(bismillah)

In the commonly quoted verses Allah praises them and confirms their great status. We love them and follow them because Allah praised them in the Quran, not only praised them but even promised paradise for those who follow them yet not a single thing about following 12 divinely appointed Imams. Allah supported the Prophet through them (as mentioned in the Quran) and spread his religion through them.

Now for Sunnis they were not apostates but rather they were the best of Muslims. For Shia they were apostates, and they were the worst of people.

It is clear which opinion agrees with the Quran.

It's true that the divine appointment of Ali is not explicitly in the Quran, but then it is very likely that the divine appointment of many Prophets and Kings of the past were not in previous scriptures either. Divine appointment is typically not proven by referring to scripture, so this point is moot. However, the principles of what kind of person succeeds Prophets is laid down in the Qur'an, and there is no precedent for believers choosing a leader from among themselves.
Regarding what you consider to be in the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), well, that has been determined by people already wedded to certain beliefs, which include the belief that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't appoint anybody (or if he did, it was Abu Bakr). However, there are enough hints lying around that can be pieced together to see all is not how orthodox Sunnism would have us believe. In addition, the Imams of the Ahlulbayt clearly taught that Imam Ali (as) was divinely appointed, and I'm sure they knew better about the Sunnah that anyone else, as both logic and external testimonies can attest. Now, I know you believe that the Shias have concocted a whole bunch of lies and attributed them to the Imams, but this makes little historical or logical sense, as anyone who isn't an orthodox Sunni can easily see.

When you claim that certain people whose ranks are higher than Prophets (as), their office of Imamate is superior to office of Prophethood, are appointed by Allah to lead the people then you need to have evidence from the Quran. If you can't provide evidence then you can not claim that the 12 People you follow are appointed by Allah.

It is possible to praise a certain group, without praising every member of that group.

When Allah praises a group (i.e. Muhajirin and Ansar) then it generally refers to all of them or at least majority of them. But for Shia it is the other way round, for them majority were hypocrites while only minority were true believers.

Regarding proof for apostasy, this isn't particularly difficult. It would suffice to refer to the hadiths about going against the Imam of one's time, or numerous verses in the Qur'an that mention obeying Allah and His Messenger. Once someone is clear that Imam Ali (as) was the rightful heir to the Prophet (pbuh), then the apostasy of various individuals is assured.

As far the narrations 'whoever doesn't recognize ruler of the time dies the death of Jahiliyah' doesn't mean they die apostates nor it refers to your infallible Imams. The narrations also say "whoever separates from main body of Muslims, if he dies, dies the death of Jahiliya". "whoever doesn't pledge allegiance to the ruler of the time, if he dies, dies the death of Jahiliya" or the narration in Sahih Muslim on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas who said that the messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who found in his Amir something which he disliked should hold his patience, for one who separated from the main body of the Muslims even to the extent of a handspan and then he died would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya" or the narration of the Prophet (saw): “Whoever removes his hands from the obedience (i.e. disobeys the legal authorities of the Muslim rulers) or creates differences in the Jama’ah dies the death of the Jaahiliyyah.

It's also worth reflecting on the following hadith:
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.488
Narrated al-Musaiyab:
I met al-Bara bin 'Azib and said (to him). "May you live prosperously! You enjoyed the company of the Prophet and gave him the Pledge of allegiance (of al-Hudaibiya) under the Tree (of al-Hudaybiyah)." On that, al-Bara' said, "O my nephew! You do not know what we have done after him (i.e. his death)."
Clearly this companion didn't see things quite as you do in regard to making the pledge at Hudaibiya. Interestingly, this companion was also said to be a companion of Imam Ali (as).

First the narration shows the great status of people who pledged under the tree notice how al-Musayab praises al-Bara'a (ra) for being among those who pledged under the tree. As far as the reply of Al-Bara' (ra) is concerned it simply shows his modesty.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

Ethics · December 25, 2013

Ok, he didn't know who all of the hypocrites were. Happy?

Sorry it just seemed as if you were implying the prophet was, astagfirullah, clueless.

**Haydar Husayn** · December 25, 2013

(bismillah)

In the commonly quoted verses Allah praises them and confirms their great status. We love them and follow them because Allah praised them in the Quran, not only praised them but even promised paradise for those who follow them yet not a single thing about following 12 divinely appointed Imams. Allah supported the Prophet through them (as mentioned in the Quran) and spread his religion through them.

Now for Sunnis they were not apostates but rather they were the best of Muslims. For Shia they were apostates, and they were the worst of people. Which opinion agrees with the Quran we leave it to the unbiased readers.

The Qur'an is talking about what happened during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh), not afterwards, so this isn't really relevant.

When you claim that certain people whose ranks are higher than Prophets (as), their office of Imamate is superior to office of Prophethood, are appointed by Allah to lead the people then you need to have evidence from the Quran. If you can't provide evidence then you can not claim that the 12 People you follow are appointed by Allah.

First of all, I don't claim that the Imams (as) have higher ranks than the Prophets, or that their office is superior to that of prophethood, and neither are these things in any way essential beliefs to be a Shia (although in recent times this does seem to be the opinion of the large majority). However, like I said, that's not my opinion.

As for the Imams being appointed by Allah, this is not necessary to be proven from the Qur'an. Anyone appointed by the Prophet (pbuh) is by default appointed by Allah. And there if the Prophet (pbuh) appoints someone, this does not need to be mentioned in the Qur'an. It's up to you to prove that this would be necessary, rather than just stating it. However, anyone who spends any time at all reflecting on the history of prophethood and divinely appointed leaders will quickly realise that their appointment was not something typically mentioned in scriptures.

When Allah praises a group (i.e. Muhajirin and Ansar) then it generally refers to all of them or at least majority of them. But for Shia it is the other way round, for them majority were hypocrites while only minority were true believers.

I'm perfectly willing to believe the majority of them were true believers when they made the pledge. What does this have to do with what happened later?

As far the narrations 'whoever doesn't recognize ruler of the time dies the death of Jahiliyah' doesn't mean they die apostates nor it refers to your infallible Imams. The narrations also say "whoever separates from main body of Muslims, if he dies, dies the death of Jahiliya". "whoever doesn't pledge allegiance to the ruler of the time, if he dies, dies the death of Jahiliya" or the narration in Sahih Muslim on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas who said that the messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: One who found in his Amir something which he disliked should hold his patience, for one who separated from the main body of the Muslims even to the extent of a handspan and then he died would die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyya" or the narration of the Prophet (saw): “Whoever removes his hands from the obedience (i.e. disobeys the legal authorities of the Muslim rulers) or creates differences in the Jama’ah dies the death of the Jaahiliyyah.

Nevertheless, it hardly reflects well on one who falls under this category. If you go from being a Muslim to someone who lived in Jahiliyya times, then you are almost certainly going to hell. Additionally, I referred to the verses of the Qur'an talking about having to obey the Messenger (pbuh).

First the narration shows the great status of people who pledged under the tree notice how al-Musayab praises al-Bara'a (ra) for being among those who pledged under the tree. As far as the reply of Al-Bara' (ra) is concerned it simply shows his modesty.

This is interpretation makes no sense. If al-Bara'a simply wanted to be modest, then why would he have said 'we', clearly referring to those who took the pledge? People are usually modest about themselves, not other people. In addition, he makes a specific reference to 'what we have done' after his death. Clearly he had something specific on his mind when he said that. In case you try to say he might have been referring to various fitnas, well that won't do either, since the 'we' here refers to those who took the pledge under the tree, and not various rebels (including Muawiya).

Bottom line is there are a million ways of being modest, that actually make sense, without raising so many questions.

repenter-gone4awhile · December 25, 2013

This thread shows that we must not hate on all sunnis, just those those see and refuse to accept.

Some sunnis are raised sunnis and don't really know better, but some just beat around the bush to quench the thirst of their nafs.

Ego is an enemy greater than Satan himself.

Abul Hussain Hassani · December 26, 2013

The Qur'an is talking about what happened during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh), not afterwards, so this isn't really relevant.

(bismillah)

For us, the Ahl-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah, it very is relevant, verses of Quran are very relevant for us. When Allah praises a group of people so many times and even promises paradise for those who follow them, they become our role models. For us they remained Muslims even after the Prophet (saw). We stick with the Quran and love and follow the Companions.

What is irrelevent is claiming that world must be ruled by divinely appointed infallible children of Ali and those whom Allah praised so many times turned apostates for not believing in them. Such belief is alien to Quran.

As for the Imams being appointed by Allah, this is not necessary to be proven from the Qur'an. Anyone appointed by the Prophet (pbuh) is by default appointed by Allah. And there if the Prophet (pbuh) appoints someone, this does not need to be mentioned in the Qur'an. It's up to you to prove that this would be necessary, rather than just stating it. However, anyone who spends any time at all reflecting on the history of prophethood and divinely appointed leaders will quickly realise that their appointment was not something typically mentioned in scriptures.

Thats why I pointed out that 'apostates' are different according to Shia and Sunni.

For us Prophet (saw) never appointed anyone, even though his favorite candidate was Abubakr. Even Ali never talked about his 'Ghadeer appointment'. For us there is no concept of 'divine Imams after Prophet (saw)' as according to Quran we as believers are not supposed to believe in such concept:

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (2:285)

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray. (4:136)

No mention of Imams ^

I'm perfectly willing to believe the majority of them were true believers when they made the pledge. What does this have to do with what happened later?

same as above

What happened later for Shia: They apostated by not accepting the appointment of Ali

What happend later for Sunnis: They not only remained Muslims but spread the religion of Allah, published his Book and defended his religion. Just like they did during the time of the Prophet (saw).

Nevertheless, it hardly reflects well on one who falls under this category. If you go from being a Muslim to someone who lived in Jahiliyya times, then you are almost certainly going to hell. Additionally, I referred to the verses of the Qur'an talking about having to obey the Messenger (pbuh).

same as above

This is interpretation makes no sense. If al-Bara'a simply wanted to be modest, then why would he have said 'we', clearly referring to those who took the pledge? People are usually modest about themselves, not other people. In addition, he makes a specific reference to 'what we have done' after his death. Clearly he had something specific on his mind when he said that. In case you try to say he might have been referring to various fitnas, well that won't do either, since the 'we' here refers to those who took the pledge under the tree, and not various rebels (including Muawiya). Bottom line is there are a million ways of being modest, that actually make sense, without raising so many questions.

what he had specific in his mind?

'we' doesn't necessary mean the people who pledged under the tree, and even it refers to people of the tree, it doesn't mean 'we turned apostates'. The Tabi'e al-Musayyab starts with saying "you enjoyed the company of the Prophet (saw)" meaning you were the companion of the Prophet (saw) and then mentions that he also "pledged under the tree" so another virtue for him.

The reply of Al-Bara'a was due to modesty and he was humble in his answer and when he said "what we did after him (saw)" he was probably referring to the fitans that happened during the caliphate of Uthman and Ali and he feared from what happened. It was the first time Muslims fought each other so what else can he refer to other that? (all companions who were alive that time feared the fitna and battles between Muslims). Even other companions including Ali made similar statements as mentioned in authentic narrations.

People who pledged under the tree were already promised paradise. The Prophet (saw) said in Sahih Muslim 2496 "None of those who gave the pledge under the tree shall enter the Fire."

so it is not referring to what you think.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Abul Hussain Hassani

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