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In the Name of God بسم الله

Reasons Which Stop Me From Becoming A Shia

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  • Advanced Member

assalam alaykum,

 

I've been studying Shia Islam a lot and sometimes am attracted to it - due to my very strong love of Ahlul Bayt -- but the following issues/questions prevent me (in no particular order):

 

1. If Imamate as understood by the Twelvers is such an important part of the religion of Islam  -- i.e. belief in the imamate of the 12 Imams -- why isn't it clearly mentioned in the Koran alongside such other articles of faith such as belief in Allah, angels, the divinely revealed books, the Day of Judgement etc. or alongside mention of such things as salah? Why would Allah leave such a central article of correct faith to interpretation?

 

2. If the majority of the Prophets' companions (r.a.) became apostates after he left this world --by not accepting Ali as Imam --then doesn't that make his mission a failure? (nauzubillah) After all, if out of 125000 who became Muslim by the time of the Last Sermon only a handful remained Muslims after him that doesn't reflect well on him (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam). (This is probably my biggest issue). 

 

3. What about all those of Bani Hashim and the members of Ahlul Bayt who pledged allegiance - bayat -- to Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar etc. Wouldn't they also by this also - nauzubillah-- become apostates according to your POV?

 

4. The fact that you curse at and swear at those people who by any rational and just analysis helped the cause of Islam and the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam immensely in his lifetime and afterwards -- people such as the first 3 caliphs -- due to the fact that they didn't make Hazrat Ali the first caliph is irrational. Even non-Muslim academics and moderate Shia such as Ali Shariati have accepted that these great personalities helped Islam a lot and history is witness that Imam Ali and the other caliphs got on well. 

 

5. Historical marriages and relations between members of the Ahlul Bayt and the caliphs and their relatives make it hard for me to take your position that the Imams and their supporters hated the first three caliphs and considered them apostates. Here, for example, is the geneology of Hazrat Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as.) from his mother's side: Jafar bin Umm Fawah bint Qasim bint Muhammad bin Abu Bakr as-Siddiq!

 

 

 

 

 

 

6. By making the 12 imams have the same qualities and attributes as the Prophet himself (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) (such as the fact that they receive wahy too) aren't you, in effect, making them as 12 prophets after the prophet?

 

7. Finally, if someone was to be convinced that Shia Islam is the truth, based on the idea of imamate, which branch of Shiaism? You cannot decide how many imams there are - -some say 12, some say 7, some 5, etc. 

 

8. I find your love and devotion to these 12 descendents of Hazrat Ali and Sayyida Fatima (a.s.) admirable but why do you neglect all of the other great members of Ahlul Bayt such as Imam Zayd, Yahya ibn Zayd, the other children of the imams other than those who were given imamate, Shaykh Abd al Qadir al Jilani etc. etc., Rumi, Hazrat Sayyid Waris Shah, Bulleh Shah, Moinuddin Chishti etc.? 

 

9. I find the way it is presented today at least a very monotonous and unidimensional picture of Islam -- only mourning Hazrat Imam Hussain  (a.s.) and hating everyone else -- de facto if not de jure. Where is the balance?

Why should I leave my current interpretation of Islam which has an equal devotion to the Prophet and His Family (a.s.) but does not curse all and sundry and does not negate all the contributions of others?

--

I hope someone will answer these questions as they are asked with great humility and honesty.

 

 

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(bismillah)


 


(salam)


 


I do not have time to address the majority of your points and I am sure one of the other brother will do it instead Insha'Allah. What I do want to point out is about item #4.


 


"The founder of this regime passed away and, with the dispossession of 'Ali and political manoeuvres, the first brick in the wall of the Caliphate was laid crooked. Abu Bakr then designated 'Umar as his successor, and the second blow was dealt to the Islamic regime. Even though 'Umar and Abu Bakr were themselves the cause of this deviation, the political organization of Islam was established upon the basic principles which the Prophet laid down: simplicity, equality, and the fair distribution of wealth and prevention of its concentration, just as it had been previously. 'Umar also left and 'Uthman, this incompetent, pseudo-religious old man, took over the reins of rulership, and the instability which had come into being in the foundation of Islamic rule became so strong that the infrastructure of Muhammad (PBUH) was immediately destroyed. During 'Uthman's rule, the Caliphate was changed into a monarchy and the mud homes of the Islamic rulers were changed into king's palaces; simplicity changed into the splendid ceremony of the court of Mu'awiyah and the extravagant organization of 'Uthman. Abu Dhar, who was the fourth or fifth person who joined Islam, and whose sword had been most effective in assisting the progress of the Islamic movement, saw this deviation. 'Ali, the image of piety and truth, became isolated and the enemies of Islam had found their way into the Caliphate organization and, like termites, they were eating away at Islam." And Once Again Abu-Dhar By: Dr. Ali Shariati


 


(wasalam) 


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Assalaam Alaikum, these are very valid and good questions from someone who is not from a Shia background, I am not a scholar but I will do my best to answer them InshAllah

 

1) Many important commandments are not mentioned in the Quran (how to pray salaah, saying Bismillah before you eat, eat with you right hand) but that should not stop us from doing those things right? we try to follow authentic sayings attributed to the Prophet S.A.W in these matters, so if there are reliable narrations from the Prophet S.A.W (many of which can be found in major Sunni books) such as "there will be 12 caliphs/Imams after me, the leader after me is Imam Ali A.S, one who does not recognize the Imam of his time dies the death of Jahilliya etc etc".

 

Yet despite this point, Imamate is a position that is made clear in the Quran when Allah SWT told Ibrahim A.S (who had already been a Prophet for many years and already delivered the Message) "Verily We have Made you an Imam" to which when Ibrahim A.S replies "What about my offspring?" Allah SWT replies "My Covenant does not include the wrongdoers" implying that regular people (who can commit sins and are not Masumeen) cannot become the Imam

 

 

2) How does that make the Prophet S.A.W 's mission a failure? His mission was to perform the job he was given, and he did successfully, if people don't follow him despite him having explained everything afterwards that's their fault, not his. Prophet Lut A.S and Prophet Nuh A.S could barely find anyone to believe in them, and the majority of their people perished in their punishment, does that make them failures?

 

Also as a side note, there weren't just a few, there were a decent amount who still knew Ali A.S was the rightful caliph and supported him as such, these were major sahaba like Bilal Habishi, Abu Dhar Ghaffari, Ammar bin Yasser, Miqdad ibn Aswad, Salman Farsi, Hujr ibn Adi, Jabir ibn Ansari, Kumail (read shia opinions of these sahaba and know how much we respect TRUE sahaba like these people, just because we speak out against some people who may be considered by sunnis as "sahaba" doesn't mean we automatically brand all sahaba as apostates, we just don't believe that if a person just saw and heard the Prophet S.A.W in his lifetime that it automatically makes him a sahaba, being a sahaba is truly defined by the actions that person did)

 

Imam Ali A.S had enough supporters to fight for what was truly his, but that would have caused a civil war within the Ummah many casualties, that is why he kept patient as he cared for the Ummah more than his own position, infact Abu Sufyan offered Imam Ali A.S support of his tribe in wrestling away the caliphate away from Abu Bakr (for his own devilish intentions of weakening the muslims and not because he supported Imam Ali A.S), Imam Ali A.S could have easily taken the caliphate with this support but again like I said, he did not desire to become caliph for his own personal desire

 

3) Imam Ali A.S and the majority of Banu Hashim always maintained Imam Ali A.S rightful position and only pledged allegiance when they saw that a civil war with much fitna was the only option in acquiring the caliphate (this same patient and amazing quality was not observed by certain people when Imam Ali A.S himself did finally become caliph). Even after Abu Bakr and Umar's deaths when Ali A.S was asked during the shura of 6 people if he would follow that Sunnah of Prophet S.A.W and Abu Bakr and Umar he replied that he would follow the Sunnah of the Prophet S.A.W but not of the other two. 

 

4) What certain shias do and what is the actual teachings of Shia Islam are two different things. Even many shias themselves tend not to study in depth their theology. No one is supposed to "curse" or swear in religion as it is not allowed. What we are supposed to do is "Laan'a". Laana is a dua to Allah SWT asking him to "Withdraw His Mercy" from a particular individual that should be done to someone who is an enemy of the Prophet S.A.W and Islam. The Prophet S.A.W himself said in a sahih narration, when he sent out an army under Usama ibn Zaid in an expedition to Syria, and many people did not join him as he was only 18 years old and disobeyed the direct order of the Prophet S.A.W, the Prophet S.A.W then said "Laan'a on the people who do not join Usama's army". Love for the Ahle Bayt A.S and the Prophet's S.A.W children is a clear commandment in the Quran, and when you love someone you will obviously hate the people who oppressed and tortured them during their lifetime, that is why we do laana in our duas

 

Also if I kill people at a bank and steal 10 million dollars from there and then build a beautiful mosque with it, is that a good thing? would you pray in that mosque? So similarly yes the Muslim empire did expand a lot under Abu Bakr and Umar, but what good is the expansion if the proper Islamic doctrine is not preached and Muslims were only Muslims in name? And don't you find it ironic that Imam Ali A.S, the only person who had participated IN EVERY SINGLE MILLITARY EPISODE with the Prophet S.A.W (except the battle of Tabuk where he instructed Ali A.S to stay in Medina and take care of it) yet did not raise his sword a single time during the caliphates of Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, men he supposedly paid allegiance to? As for Uthman, I don't know what contributions he made seeing as how everybody (literally EVERYBODY except Bani Hasim A.S) wanted him dead and ended up killing him, if you read more in depth about his history you will find that his body laid rotting for 3 days (i.e no one bothered to bury him for 3 days) aftrer he was killed, that's how much people ended up having enmity with him.

 

I will inshAllah address the rest of your points later as I am at work and should be working lol 

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assalam alaykum,

 

I've been studying Shia Islam a lot and sometimes am attracted to it - due to my very strong love of Ahlul Bayt -- but the following issues/questions prevent me (in no particular order):

 

1. If Imamate as understood by the Twelvers is such an important part of the religion of Islam  -- i.e. belief in the imamate of the 12 Imams -- why isn't it clearly mentioned in the Koran alongside such other articles of faith such as belief in Allah, angels, the divinely revealed books, the Day of Judgement etc. or alongside mention of such things as salah? Why would Allah leave such a central article of correct faith to interpretation?

 

Salam,

 

Why Allah swt has not mentioned in Qu'ran how many rakaat in compulsory prayers?

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(Salam)

Brother, the resonance you're giving aren't that good or strong enough. In other words, if you give a little more importance and time to studying Shia Islam, you'll fins these answers yourself. I can answer more than half of your points but I should rather leave it to someone more knowledgeable. Anyway, your points 1,2,3,6,8,9 are pretty lame reasons. I hope someone answers you soon and help you get rid of your simple confusion.

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I'm sorry when you dismiss the achievements of sayyidina umar and sayyidina abu bakr - who are both positively mentioned in the Quran - and by name in many many Hadith you lose credibility. At least the Zaydis respect these two whom the Prophet praised throughout his life. Since we believe he had knowledge of what is and what was and what will be till Qayamat, his constant praising of sayyidina umar and sayyidina Siddiq e Akbar and sayyidina usman and guaranteeing them as bring from amongst the people of paradise nullifies all your claims to the truth since you go to extremes in your cursing (la'an means to curse) such blessed people.

Yes, love of Aal E Nabi is important but love of aal e nabi doesn't equal hatred of the closest companions!

There is ample evidence both in Hadith and history that the Khulafa e Rashida loved the Ahlul Bayt and vice-versa. I know you Shia don't believe in these Hadith but that's neither here nor there.

A lot more people would be convinced - people who are intelligent and open minded like me - if you weren't so extreme in this matter, everything is black and white for you.

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I'm sorry when you dismiss the achievements of sayyidina umar and sayyidina abu bakr - who are both positively mentioned in the Quran - and by name in many many Hadith you lose credibility. At least the Zaydis respect these two whom the Prophet praised throughout his life. Since we believe he had knowledge of what is and what was and what will be till Qayamat, his constant praising of sayyidina umar and sayyidina Siddiq e Akbar and sayyidina usman and guaranteeing them as bring from amongst the people of paradise nullifies all your claims to the truth since you go to extremes in your cursing (la'an means to curse) such blessed people.

Yes, love of Aal E Nabi is important but love of aal e nabi doesn't equal hatred of the closest companions!

There is ample evidence both in Hadith and history that the Khulafa e Rashida loved the Ahlul Bayt and vice-versa. I know you Shia don't believe in these Hadith but that's neither here nor there.

A lot more people would be convinced - people who are intelligent and open minded like me - if you weren't so extreme in this matter, everything is black and white for you.

 

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

people who are intelligent and open minded like me

 

I have never seen a group of people so closed-minded or extreme in their ingnorance than people that blindly accept what they hear from others and disregard every fact in history in order to promote thaalims that oppressed the family of the Prophet (pbuh). You seem like that type, so before arrogantly flaunting (nonexistant) characteristics of yours, think.

 

if you weren't so extreme in this matter

 

I believe this applies to you. You and your like make every attempt to twist and adulterate history in order to cover up the faults of some tyrants who the Quran clearly and openly condemns. Even then, some people have the audacity to elevate their status. You then go on to praise them to no end. It's disgusting to be completely honest. I hope you someday come out of your ignorant denial and stop being a puppet for those that brainwash innocents into believing things that are clearly not true. If only you looked into history and saw what these people have done....

 

(wasalam)

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“History is written by the victors”

- Winston Churchill

 


Wake up and smell the coffee, brother. Everything is not as it seems...


 


Political power has the ability to bend the truth. Why do you think the Shia are the minority today? The truth was distorted when usurpers came into power. We remained steadfast to the message of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Family (AS). Why do you think we are oppressed today? Because we chose to stay with true Islam and Allah's will while others went astray.


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My thoughts on #2... Remember it's about quality not quantity. Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh&hp) mission was a message and a way of life. It's not something you measure by number for example we harvested 100 tons of potatoes this year, it's a successful harvest. No, it's, we gave this perfect Islam to the right people who will carry it on. This is quality, Ahlul-Bayt and their followers. Don't forget the pagan identity of some of these Arabs. Arabs are proud people I don't find it shocking that they reverted to their old ways. Even during the time of the Prophet (pbuh&hp) some of his companions would ask him if what he saying is "from Him" or "from Allah". Imam Hussain (a.s) had 72 against the army of Yazid and even with his death he achieved victory because of the quality of these 72 compared to the thousands on the side of evil. What you may see as a defeat may be a victory in disguise...

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For #8, we do respect the other great saints of Islam.

 

#9, you may have found it monotonous because that is all that you are looking at. But this is huge for us, but not the only thing. You may consider it a means to the end. It is a way of reaching the final goal of being on the straight path. The mourning and labbayk for Imam Hussain A.S., which is effectively labbayk for Allah SWT and the Holy Prophet SAWS, provides us the light to remain on the straight path. We know what is expected of us and whom and what should we stay away from. Our children know what our goal of life is, and that is the ibadat of Allah and willing to sacrifice ourselves for it, if need be.

 

#10 Our question is simple, why was Hazrat Ali A.S. not made the spiritual leader after the Holy Prophet SAWS? Why did the others not abdicate in favour of Hazrat Ali A.S? If you answer that question, you may find out why one should have a negative view of some people who were present at that time.

 

#5, we believe that the son of Abu Bakr, Mohammed A.S.,was a true muslim and also supported Hazrat Ali A.S. and we respect him due to these reasons. There are many other such examples. Our problem is with the people who did harm to islam for the sake of power, like muawiyah, and also have a problem with people who like such people. We are hell-bent to guide them and others who are ignorant. 

 

#6, Forget about Prophets and Imams, according to the Quran, even bees get wahy. Wahy means  inspiration. It means you know  what to do next.

The Imams, like the Holy Prophet, had divine knowledge. I can provide links displaying a small glimpse of their knowledge.

http://www.islamicwisdom.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=191:imam-jafar-as-sadiq-a-s-and-abu-shakir&catid=3:God&Itemid=186

 

So they did get wahy. 

I also happen to have a counter question: Can you provide any such link of any of the scholars/Imams/Sahaba etc. that we don't revere?

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I would like to continue with #2. The Arabs would complain to the Prophet (pbuh&hp) that pre-Islam they where happier people. They gambled, drank excessively, lead untamed sexual lives, and the wind seemed to blow in their favor. When Islam came to them and they gave these things up they felt like their lives became miserable. However when you turn to the Quran we learn that Allah (swt) tests the believers for various reasons including but not limited to; removing sins, distinguishing the patient from the impatient, rank purification etc. The point I'm trying to get to is, the Prophet (pbuh&hp) dies, people lose direction. Islam, being a relatively knew concept to people who still where familiar with their pagan identity, was easy to leave. Why would this fall on the shoulders of the Prophet (pbuh&hp)? Allah (swt) tells us that no soul shall carry the burden of another. The Prophet (pbuh&hp) delivered the message and I believe the deal was sealed in Ghadir Khumm. Surah 2:256 "There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong". Whether or not people become apostates has nothing to do with the success of the Prophet (pbuh&hp). There have been Prophets who had direct family who did not heed the message. Does that make those Prophets unsuccessful? The people of Jesus (pbuh) took him as a God. Does that make Jesus (a.s.) unsuccessful or his people unsuccessful? 

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I'm sorry when you dismiss the achievements of sayyidina umar and sayyidina abu bakr - who are both positively mentioned in the Quran - and by name in many many Hadith you lose credibility. At least the Zaydis respect these two whom the Prophet praised throughout his life. Since we believe he had knowledge of what is and what was and what will be till Qayamat, his constant praising of sayyidina umar and sayyidina Siddiq e Akbar and sayyidina usman and guaranteeing them as bring from amongst the people of paradise nullifies all your claims to the truth since you go to extremes in your cursing (la'an means to curse) such blessed people.

 

And where exactly are Umar and Abu Bakr mentioned by name in the Quran? Where are their names? I thought the biggest issue you had with not believing in Imamate because "it wasn't mentioned in the Quran" (despite clearly it is mentioned in verse 2:124), wasn't that your point number one? Yet hilariously you believe Abu Bakr and Umar being mentioned in the Quran despite the facts that their names are no where to be found

 

And what about the hadith in Bukhari "Whoever angers Faatima angers me and whoever angers me has angered Allah" and the hadith where it states "Faatima died angry with Abu Bakr"?? At what point do YOU lose credibility and are nullified?

 

And I already told you "lanna" means "Withdraw Mercy" and that we are not supposed to curse. The Prophet S.A.W himself did lanaa for the people who did not join Usama bin Zaid's army (ppl like Abu Bakr and Umar) which is AGAIN found in your sahih hadiths. Some shias do curse which they shouldn't, but you wanna close your ears and keeps shouting lanaa means curse go ahead, you might as well yell 2+2=5 while you're at it

 

 

 

Yes, love of Aal E Nabi is important but love of aal e nabi doesn't equal hatred of the closest companions!

 

Would you love a man who murdered your mother (someone I assume you also love). When we love Aale e Nabi that means we dont love the ppl who slandered them, oppressed them and helped kill them. We believe according to our hadiths that they were definitley guilty of such crimes, thats why we hate them.

 

There is ample evidence both in Hadith and history that the Khulafa e Rashida loved the Ahlul Bayt and vice-versa. I know you Shia don't believe in these Hadith but that's neither here nor there

 

.

And what about the hadiths from your same books which talk about breaking the door of Ahlul Bayt A.S and causing Faatima S.A to miscarry and eventually die of her injuries and stealing Fadak away from her, do you ever want to focus on these hadiths or are they negligible? 

 

 

A lot more people would be convinced - people who are intelligent and open minded like me - if you weren't so extreme in this matter, everything is black and white for you.

 

 

No, you are not intelligent and open-minded, you are a troll. I thought you were open minded and came here to have a civilized dialogue but that last insulting paragraph just unmasked you for who you were, you are one of those single posting salafis (who's definitley come to this site before) just to troll and not to listen to argument and paste anti shia argument and run away. Hence since you are not here to have a discussion and just troll i will not bother to address your remaining points (beyond #4) that i originally was going to do had you not talked in an insulting manner.

 

Open minded and intelligent people are convinced of the truth such as myself who used to be a salafi before and am now proud to say am 100% shia. If you do want to have an honest discussion then i will be more than happy to discuss your remaining points

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you can look at all my posts on this forum to know i am not a salafi and my posts are not trolling.

see, any hadiths in our hadith books which praise hazrat umar and hazrat abu bakr etc. you will not accept,

likewise you will not accept any tafsirs which say so and so verses were revealed in praise of or in confirmation of hazrat umar or hazrat abu bakr from our scholars -- whereas alhamdulillah we real sufi sunnis -- not salafis -- love to quote verses in praise of mawla ali etc. that is what i meant by you being not open-minded.

 

 

to deny all the hadith that are in praise of the caliphs is not open-minded. yes there are countless hadith in praise mawla ali and the panjtan and we don't deny them -- but then again there are as many in praise of siddiq e akbar etc or other companions and the only way to reconcile them all is the sunni way of love for all.

 

to the bro who said would you love enemies of ahlul bayt the answer is of course not and any honest and non sectarian reading of history and all the source texts of islam will clearly tell you that the khulafa e rashida were not enemies of ahlul bayt rather respected them very highly. once when sayyidna imam hussain told hazrat umar to come off the minbar because he was their servant and it what their minbar hazrat umar brought a piece of paper and asked that the imam write it down that he was their servant so he could take it into his grave with him. etc. etc. 

 

if their was a prophet after me it would be Umar is a famous hadith but you deny any such hadiths where as i am happy to believe in hadith of ghadir etc.

 as i said extensive research and listening to your scholars has led me to conclude that the only way of love for all is the way of sufi sunni islam.

peace

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1. If Imamate as understood by the Twelvers is such an important part of the religion of Islam -- i.e. belief in the imamate of the 12 Imams -- why isn't it clearly mentioned in the Koran alongside such other articles of faith such as belief in Allah, angels, the divinely revealed books, the Day of Judgement etc. or alongside mention of such things as salah? Why would Allah leave such a central article of correct faith to interpretation?

Answer: chronologically speaking, the earliest story told in Quran is about the creation of Adam, and the first Shytan in Quran became one due to his rejection to the khilafa (leadership) of Adam

Do you think that that story was told as bedtime story?

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Dear brother, the only thing that you are lacking is not enough knowledge. I would suggest you to research more before you make a decision. From the above posts of yours, It's easy to analyze that your knowledge is still less. You aren't seeing the whole picture. Yes, the caliphs did a lot of good things. Yes, they were praised. Yet they made a few mistakes. Even Sunnis admit that the Caliphs made those mistakes but the difference between them and us is that the Sunni scholars don't consider it a bad act because they say that the caliphs had a reason to do such things. Unfortunately, the reasons the scholars give are not good enough. I myself am a convert from a Sunni. Though I don't curse them. I believe that the caliphs did make mistakes and when I discus those mistakes with my Sunni pals, they also agree that the caliphs did wrong (I also give the lame reasons which the Sunni scholars do yet those pals say that the caliphs were wrong) whereas I myself never call the caliphs wrong in front of anyone yet they see the truth themselves. Then, Why can't you?

Brother, I know our Shia brothers can brother harsh here. So, do me a favour and PM me if you wish to discuss the matters. I'll b more than just happy to get back at you.

(Salam)

!فی امان اللہ

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Salman al-Farisi, Abu Dharr, Miqdad b. al-Aswad, `Ammar b. Yasir, `Abbas b. `Abd al-Mutallib, Ibn `Abbas, Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, Jabir b. `Abdullah al-Ansari, Abu't Tufayl `Amr b. Wathila, Zayd b. al-Arqam, Bilal al-Habashi, and many lesser-known companions.

 

Thirdly, many of the companions did come back to `Ali (as). It is true that we believe that he only had three followers immediately after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). However, some came back to him during the Caliphate of the first 3, and some returned during his Caliphate. Research the biographies of the names I provided earlier and their relationship with Ahl al-Bayt. It is clear that these esteemed companions of the Prophet (pbuh) gave `Ali (as) a special importance beyond just a ruler of the Muslims.

 

Brother Qaim, I'm unsure as to what the Shia rijalists have mentioned about the above mentioned names, but I was reading about Abu Tufayl and Sunni scholars mentioned that he was a Shia in the sense that he preferred Imam Ali (a.s) over Uthman. Do we have the same opinion about him and the other aforementioned names or were they outright Shias like Salman al-Farsi, Ammar bin Yasir and a few others?

 

see, any hadiths in our hadith books which praise hazrat umar and hazrat abu bakr etc. you will not accept,

likewise you will not accept any tafsirs which say so and so verses were revealed in praise of or in confirmation of hazrat umar or hazrat abu bakr from our scholars -- whereas alhamdulillah we real sufi sunnis -- not salafis -- love to quote verses in praise of mawla ali etc. that is what i meant by you being not open-minded.

 

And to solve this dilemma, I suggest you accept those ahadith that are transmitted through tawatur in both Shia and Sunni books. A few examples amongst the plethora that exist are: Hadith al-Thaqalayn, hadith about the 12 rulers, hadith al-Ghadeer and there are many others.

 

The reason why Shias and Sunnis don't accept ahadith from the books of the opposite party is because they have been narrated by people who are not truthworthy to them. Sunnis don't consider Shias as reliable in narrating ahadith and the same is with the Shias too. This is the general norm and there are exceptions in books of both sects. Shias, for example, don't consider all the companions of the Prophet (s) reliable in narrating ahadith. Therefore you have to return back to square one and understand the issue of adalat as-sahaabah (justice of companions). Once that has been through, in'sha Allah things will start falling in place.

 

to deny all the hadith that are in praise of the caliphs is not open-minded. yes there are countless hadith in praise mawla ali and the panjtan and we don't deny them -- but then again there are as many in praise of siddiq e akbar etc or other companions and the only way to reconcile them all is the sunni way of love for all.

 

In fact, if I were you, I'd find peace in accepting those ahadith transmitted authentically in both sects than to rely on one sided sectarian reports and figure a way to reconcile them. I would say that is being "open minded".

 

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Waris, Asalamualaikum, 

 

Brother, apparently people have bombarded you with information. Our religion does not depend on attacking the personalities whom you adore. 

 

As a Sufi I can appreciate your mindset. We have a huge corpus of supplication which you may want to look at. There is a particular reason why I am asking you to do so, we have the largest collection of supplication within Islam, no other school comes even close to us which includes the Sufis. We have a huge spiritual reserve. 

 

The book you may want to look into is called Mafatih Al-Jinan. Read the supplication and in particular Dua Kumayl. After reading the dua you will realise who was the real spiritual successor of the Prophet (sawa) and then ask yourself did your Imams (Abu Bakr & Umar) leave behind any supplication that can benefit you in the hereafter? 

 

 

As for the questions you asked, do you believe the Ahlul Bayt has been oppressed? 

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you can look at all my posts on this forum to know i am not a salafi and my posts are not trolling.

see, any hadiths in our hadith books which praise hazrat umar and hazrat abu bakr etc. you will not accept,

likewise you will not accept any tafsirs which say so and so verses were revealed in praise of or in confirmation of hazrat umar or hazrat abu bakr from our scholars -- whereas alhamdulillah we real sufi sunnis -- not salafis -- love to quote verses in praise of mawla ali etc. that is what i meant by you being not open-minded.

 

 

Yet this is the rank of of the Caliphates in the ahlul-sunnah.  1,2,3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>4.  If you deny the Caliphate of the first 3 you are a "rafadi" completely out of the fold of Islam. However, deny the 4th's caliphate and guess what? No biggie, still a muslim.  Why? Well for 1). The ahlul sunnah only considered the 4th caliph as a "rightly guided" caliph up until hundreds of years after he became Caliph.  2). Muawiya, that you guys put (ra) after his name used to make it mandatory to curse Imam Ali (as). Didn't he (Muawiya) kill one of the companions of the prophet, Hujr ibn Adi(ra), for refusing to curse the Imam (as)?  Yeah! You know the one the ahlul sunnah/salafi with their petro dollar terrorist dug up! Yup! That's the one!  Regardless, you will have your intrepretation of history and I will have mine.  Allah (saws) knows best.

 

 

 

 

to deny all the hadith that are in praise of the caliphs is not open-minded. yes there are countless hadith in praise mawla ali and the panjtan and we don't deny them -- but then again there are as many in praise of siddiq e akbar etc or other companions and the only way to reconcile them all is the sunni way of love for all.

 

 

You pose a series of questions as if you want to "truly" learn and become a Shia. Yet you come up with these backward arguments that only makes this run in a circle (circles don't have endpoints, fyi).  So, I must ask, what is your reason for making this post? 

 

 

 any honest and non sectarian reading of history and all the source texts of islam

 

Keep this in mind.

 

 

if their was a prophet after me it would be Umar is a famous hadith but you deny any such hadiths where as i am happy to believe in hadith of ghadir etc.

 

 

 

With the above in mind, which sectarian intrepretation of hadith of ghadir did you go by? Can't be the shia because we are sooooooo wrong and hence why you are asking these questions, right?  So, much for "any honest and non sectarian reading of history and all the source texts of islam."  

 

Jazak Allah al khair brother

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Waris, Asalamualaikum, 

 

Brother, apparently people have bombarded you with information. Our religion does not depend on attacking the personalities whom you adore. 

 

As a Sufi I can appreciate your mindset.

 

As for the questions you asked, do you believe the Ahlul Bayt has been oppressed?

In all honesty, having read history as much as I can from English and Urdu books, I do believe that the Ahlul Bayt were oppressed both by the Umayyads and by the Abbasids on the whole especially after Hazrat Ali passed away. I have no hesitation in condemning the majority of the Ummayad and Abbasid caliphs for their treatment of the 12 Imams and their descendants and you can say I have a pro-Alid reading of history but that doesn't prove Shiaism to be true does it!

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I never heard that people who reject the imamate are outright apostates.. The sunnis are still considered muslims.

Cursing the companions is not something I've ever Heard from anyone else but a very small number of extremists on YouTube. Shias Believe that Imam Ali was denied the rightful position as the sole over the islamic ummah authority after the Death of the prophet. Therefor the caliphate of Abu Bakr & any other caliph will be viewed as illegitimate because it is an obstacle to the implementation of the will of God.

 

#5: Imam Jafar as Sadiq's mother Asma bint Umays was married to Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr, the son of Abu Bakr.

Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was adopted as a stepson by Imam Ali after the Death of his father Abu Bakr and he stood on the side of Imam Ali against his own sister Aisha who waged war against imam Ali.

 

The idea that what happened during the early history of Islam was simply "the will of God" is a very good excuse for the rulers at the time to remove the responsibility of mistakes from themselves..

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assalam alaykum,

 

I've been studying Shia Islam a lot and sometimes am attracted to it - due to my very strong love of Ahlul Bayt -- but the following issues/questions prevent me (in no particular order):

 

1. If Imamate as understood by the Twelvers is such an important part of the religion of Islam  -- i.e. belief in the imamate of the 12 Imams -- why isn't it clearly mentioned in the Koran alongside such other articles of faith such as belief in Allah, angels, the divinely revealed books, the Day of Judgement etc. or alongside mention of such things as salah? Why would Allah leave such a central article of correct faith to interpretation?

 

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with his commands, and he fulfilled them. He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not wrong-doers." (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:124)

 

There, in other words Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì has made it a covenant to make the Imams out of the offspring of Prohpet Ibrahim. 

 

0 Messenger! Make known that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, for if you do it not, you will not have conveyed His message (Surah al-Ma'idah, 5:67)

This was revealed just before the Prophet announced Imam Ali (as) to the poeple. Shias and sunnis believe in this event. However sunnis believe that the prophet gathered the people to just tell them that Ali is their friend. 

 

"Your guardian is only Allah, His Messenger and those who believe, establish prayers and pay the zakat while they are bowing in prayer." (Surah al-Ma'ida, 5:55)

Who else has history a record of giving charity while bowing down to prayers except Imam Ali (as)? 

 

Plus, there is a famous Hadith in sunni sources that say that the prophet (p) said, he who dies not knowing the imam of his time has died the death of Jahiliya. 

So my question is, who is your imam?

 

2. If the majority of the Prophets' companions (r.a.) became apostates after he left this world --by not accepting Ali as Imam --then doesn't that make his mission a failure? (nauzubillah) After all, if out of 125000 who became Muslim by the time of the Last Sermon only a handful remained Muslims after him that doesn't reflect well on him (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam). (This is probably my biggest issue). 

 

The Prophet himself admitted in a very famous Hadith, that the muslims will be divided into 73 sects. All of them will go to hell, except one. 

 

This hadith is recorded in both shia and sunni sources. So if the prophet himself says that only 1/73 will be his true followers, then who are you to say that the prophet has failed his mission? Besides, using your logic, all the 123999 prophets that came before Islam, failed their mission. Which implies that Allah's mission failed, Astaghfirullah.

 

However there is one unique outcome of Prophet's (p) struggle. That is that at least 1/73 of his followers will be his true followers till the day of judgement.  

 

3. What about all those of Bani Hashim and the members of Ahlul Bayt who pledged allegiance - bayat -- to Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar etc. Wouldn't they also by this also - nauzubillah-- become apostates according to your POV?

 

Why didn't Imam Ali (as) pay his Baya to Abubakr straight away? Why did he post pond it up to 6 months? (This is in sunni/shia books)

 

Imam Ali (as) and his true followers EVENTUALLY gave baya because they were afraid  that if they didn't, Islam would be in chaos and perish. 

 

4. The fact that you curse at and swear at those people who by any rational and just analysis helped the cause of Islam and the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam immensely in his lifetime and afterwards -- people such as the first 3 caliphs -- due to the fact that they didn't make Hazrat Ali the first caliph is irrational. Even non-Muslim academics and moderate Shia such as Ali Shariati have accepted that these great personalities helped Islam a lot and history is witness that Imam Ali and the other caliphs got on well. 

 

 

Fatima Zahra (as) cursed them after her prayers, according to the shia. Also it is recorded in sunni sources that Fatima Zahra (as) passed away while she was angry at Abubakr. So why was fatima (as) never content with Abubakr, whom served islam in many ways? In my opinion, it is because one bad deed can wipe out all the good deeds. Would u still respect your favourite sheikh whom one day he turns out to be a hypocrite or steels something from u? 

 

But, cursing those Sahabas in public is obviously not allowed in shia islam, because it causes fitna. 

 

5. Historical marriages and relations between members of the Ahlul Bayt and the caliphs and their relatives make it hard for me to take your position that the Imams and their supporters hated the first three caliphs and considered them apostates. Here, for example, is the geneology of Hazrat Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as.) from his mother's side: Jafar bin Umm Fawah bint Qasim bint Muhammad bin Abu Bakr as-Siddiq!

 

I will leave this to other brothers who are more knowledged. 

 

 

6. By making the 12 imams have the same qualities and attributes as the Prophet himself (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) (such as the fact that they receive wahy too) aren't you, in effect, making them as 12 prophets after the prophet?

 

Imams don't receive wahy, they simply continue the message of a prophet, who receives the wahy. 

 

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with his commands, and he fulfilled them. He said: I have appointed you an Imam for mankind. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? He said: My covenant includes not wrong-doers." (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:124)

 

According to this aya of the Quran, Imams have a higher status than prophets. Because Abraham was before a prophet, then when he past Allah's trails, Allah made him become an Imam. Now just to point out, that some Prophets were also Imams. eg. Abraham (as), Prophet Muhammad (p). So they have higher status than our 12 imams because they are also an imam and a prophet. 

 

7. Finally, if someone was to be convinced that Shia Islam is the truth, based on the idea of imamate, which branch of Shiaism? You cannot decide how many imams there are - -some say 12, some say 7, some 5, etc. 

 

Same thing goes for sunnis Islam. Which one is correct, if one was to be correct?

 

This is why you research each one of them, u study the hadith of the prophet. An example would be the hadith which is in both sunni books such as sahih muslims and shia books, where the prophet (P) said that there will be 12 imams after me who are all from Quraysh. 

 

8. I find your love and devotion to these 12 descendents of Hazrat Ali and Sayyida Fatima (a.s.) admirable but why do you neglect all of the other great members of Ahlul Bayt such as Imam Zayd, Yahya ibn Zayd, the other children of the imams other than those who were given imamate, Shaykh Abd al Qadir al Jilani etc. etc., Rumi, Hazrat Sayyid Waris Shah, Bulleh Shah, Moinuddin Chishti etc.? 

 

It is our obligation to hold tight to our 12 Imams, because they are chosen by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, they are pure of any sins. This is why our focus is just the 12 imams. 

 

9. I find the way it is presented today at least a very monotonous and unidimensional picture of Islam -- only mourning Hazrat Imam Hussain  (a.s.) and hating everyone else -- de facto if not de jure. Where is the balance?

Why should I leave my current interpretation of Islam which has an equal devotion to the Prophet and His Family (a.s.) but does not curse all and sundry and does not negate all the contributions of others?

 

I believe this is your least important questions, because it has too much generlisation. Yes, mourn for imam hussain, but did he sacrificed all that just for u to mourn him? No! learn lessons of sacrifice, justice and standing against tyranny. That should be the outcome of every Muharram, not just crying your eyes out. 

No one told u to curse the other Sahabs, however if u want to just because Fatima Zahra (as) did it, well do it in private! 

--

I hope someone will answer these questions as they are asked with great humility and honesty.

 

I hope you've benefited my responses. :)

Edited by SlaveOfAllah14
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Bismillah.

 

Salaamun Alaykum friends,

 

I’d like to answer the first two above-mentioned questions;

  1. Regarding the first question I have, also, to ask a question: is it enough for a great divine status to be mentioned for someone implicitly or there has to be explicit words? I think we cannot reject the fact that implicitly mentioned thing in the Qur’an is as great as explicit one, for, it has been mentioned by the Qur’an. There is an adorable work – and maybe we can call a masterpiece of the Qur’an – which accordingly it is not mentioned such a controversial idea directly, because it could damage the Qur’an, Islam and Muslims, who are disagreeing each other in such a case; so that it has been emphasized upon on the issue of Imamate indirectly, in verses like the verse of Wīlāyah (5:55), the verse of Tabliq or Qadīr (5:67), Ikmāl ad-Dīn (5:3), the verse 33:31and others. Now the question is that: how can such verses prove the Imamate of Ali (p) and his progeny (p)? The answer is clear; for understanding a verse, we have to refer to interpreters of the Qur’an and many of interpreters of the Qur’an, in both Shia and Sunni circles, confess that those verses are revealed in regard with Imam Ali (p) and through such a strategy, no one can doubt in Imamate of Imam Ali and Ahl-u-l-Bayt (p) and yet the Qur’an is left immune from falsification and Muslims are being prevented from conflicts and the way for truth-seeker is smooth; and this is the masterwork of the Qur’an.
  2. As you know, majority does not prove any rightfulness and the Qur’an in many cases confirms that by saying: “the majority of them do not have faith” (2:100), “most of them do not know” (6:37, 7:131, 8:34 and 12 more), “most of them do not apply reason” (5:103, 29:63, 49:4), “most of them do not give thanks” (10:60, 27:73); at that time, as other prophets’ time, there were minority-faithful remained, who were ready to try their best to accept all Allah’s wishes, even if some of His wishes did nit please them.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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SlaveOfAllah14 you wrote that "Imam Ali (as) and his true followers EVENTUALLY gave baya because they were afraid  that if they didn't, Islam would be in chaos and perish. "

 

By saying this you are blaming Imam Ali (as) of hypocracy and Munafqat. You are a liar. Imam Ali (as) happily accepted the Khilafat of Hazrat Abubaqar as Holy Prophet Muhammbad (Peace b|e Upon him) allowed only Imamat for Namaz only to Abu Baqar ...indicating him as a next caliphate

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