Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Ali A.s Is Rightful Khalifa

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

Waleykum Salaam,

He left it for the Muslims to consult among themselves and chose their leader.

If this is the case then why didn't Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) follow the Prophet's (pbuh) foot steps and did the same??? Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) named and appointed his successor. Why didn't he leave it to the Ummah as the Prophet (pbuh) instructed???

Edited by Ameen
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Waleykum Salaam,

 

He left it for the Muslims to consult among themselves and chose their leader. 

 

Brother you really need do decide on one thing that the Prophet (pbuh) did. Did he appoint his successor??? Did he leave it to the Ummah??? Did he not bother with it and certain members of the Ummah took matters into their own hands??? What do you really believe in after the demise of the Messenger (pbuh)??? You have to make up your mind and stick to one statement, so we can discuss on that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

S.a Jab Rasool Allah ne Khalifa nahi banaya to tumne rasool ki sunnat k khilaf kyu khalifa banaya . Jo maasum bhi nahi tha gunah aur galti kar sakta hai.

Sirf Ahlebait a.s sirate mustaqeem per hai kyu k Allah taala ne paak aur taahir rakha hai aur shaitan jinhe nahi behka sakta.

(Sura 33:33. )......Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House(Ahlulbait)! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

(Sura 15:36-42) And surely on you is curse until the day of judgment. He said: My Lord! then respite me till the time when they are raised. He said: So surely you are of the respited ones. Till the period of the time made known. He said: My Lord! because Thou hast made life evil to me, I will certainly make (evil) fair-seeming to them on earth, and I will certainly cause them all to deviat.Except Thy servants from among them, the devoted ones.He said: This is a right way with Me.Surely. as regards My servants, you have no authority ,over them except those who follow you of the deviators.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

If this is the case then why didn't Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) follow the Prophet's (pbuh) foot steps and did the same??? Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) named and appointed his successor. Why didn't he leave it to the Ummah as the Prophet (pbuh) instructed???

 

There was consultation between Sahaba about Umar (ra). Abubakr (ra) consulted the Sahaba including Ali (ra). They all agreed that Umar (ra) is the right person to succeed. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

There was consultation between Sahaba about Umar (ra). Abubakr (ra) consulted the Sahaba including Ali (ra). They all agreed that Umar (ra) is the right person to succeed.

Derp... So the ummah(believers) equate to about 6 people, and everyone else is kafir? Now I'm confused. If the prophet ordered the ummah to choose, LIKE YOU SAID, then why did Abu Bakr go against his orders?

Please bring me a verse in which Allah commands mankind to choose their own leaders to REPRESENT Allah AND HIS RELIGION.

Edited by PureEthics
Link to post
Share on other sites

Waleykum Salaam,

 

He left it for the Muslims to consult among themselves and chose their leader. 

 

 

Since when was he left for Consultation? and the Happening of Ghadeer Khum was a mere issue to be ignored? and where does the Evidence of Such a system of electing the Guide of Nation come from? Was it Practiced in the previous successor before the prophet Peace be upon him?

(wasalam)  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

There was consultation between Sahaba about Umar (ra). Abubakr (ra) consulted the Sahaba including Ali (ra). They all agreed that Umar (ra) is the right person to succeed.

Salaam brother. There was no consultation amongst Sahaba about Hazrath Umar (ra). Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) took matters in to his own hands and appointed his successor.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

1.  Since when was he left for Consultation?

 

2.  and the Happening of Ghadeer Khum was a mere issue to be ignored?

 

3.  and where does the Evidence of Such a system of electing the Guide of Nation come from? Was it Practiced in the previous successor before the prophet Peace be upon him?

(wasalam)

 

1.  You are confusing consultant with being responsible for the outcome.  As the Caliph, Abu Bakr [ra] had that much authority to, at least, cast his vote in favor of another Sahabi [ra] and then consult other Sahaba [ra] to get their opinion.  

 

2.  Well, Sheikh Mufid [rah] - as I showed in the other topic - said that the Prophet [saw], after Ghadeer Khum, offered leadership to Abbas [ra].  So the onus of ignoring Ghadeer Khum is on your scholars and books :)

 

3.  In the nations prior to this ummah, we do not know the exact details of how successors were appointed but we know that Prophethood had not ended.  For example, Yusha ibn Nun [as] was a prophet who succeeded Musa [as].  And we know Who appointed Prophets [asws].  But the door to Prophethood was closed shut with the appointment of Rasulullah [saw].  Reality of it is that Imamat is a "divine appointment" which rivals prophethood but disguises itself as leadership.  It is not in the Qur'an yet it is presented to us as an usool of our deen.  Nothing substantiates Imamat and the verse about Ibrahim [asws] does more damage (to Imamat) than good.  Essentially, this is the core issue that Sunnis have with Shias. 

 

If you are still shaking your head saying "no" then show me the Imamat of the Prophet [saw].  It is alleged that the Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] is found in Surah Baqarah and the Imamat of Imam Ali [ra] was declared at Ghadeer Khum.  It is believed that Imamat is above Nabuwat then that makes Ali [ra] better than our Prophet [saw].  But our Shia brothers say that that is not true because the Prophet [saw] is an Imam and a prophet.

 

So, I ask, when and where was Rasulullah's [saw] Imamat announced?

 

If Imamat is better than being a prophet, why then do we not say, "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad imamullah" instead of "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad-ur Rasulullah?"  The latter shows that he was just a prophet [saw]; the former shows that he [saw] was an Imam and a prophet.

 

Lastly, if one has to be a prophet in order to be an Imam (as we read in the verse about Ibrahim [asws]), when and where was this exception made for Ali [ra] and his descendants (that they can be Imams without attaining prophethood)?

Edited by muslim720
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Derp... So the ummah(believers) equate to about 6 people, and everyone else is kafir? Now I'm confused. If the prophet ordered the ummah to choose, LIKE YOU SAID, then why did Abu Bakr go against his orders?

Please bring me a verse in which Allah commands mankind to choose their own leaders to REPRESENT Allah AND HIS RELIGION.

 

 

They consulted amongst themselves and agreed on Umar. The Ummah (the believers) then pledged their allegiance to him. 

 

Salaam brother. There was no consultation amongst Sahaba about Hazrath Umar (ra). Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) took matters in to his own hands and appointed his successor.

(wasalam)

Not true brother. He consulted major Sahaba. 

 

Since when was he left for Consultation? and the Happening of Ghadeer Khum was a mere issue to be ignored? and where does the Evidence of Such a system of electing the Guide of Nation come from? Was it Practiced in the previous successor before the prophet Peace be upon him?

(wasalam)

 

Ali never talked about Ghadir because there is not appointment there. Don't go off-topic please.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

1.  You are confusing consultant with being responsible for the outcome.  As the Caliph, Abu Bakr [ra] had that much authority to, at least, cast his vote in favor of another Sahabi [ra] and then consult other Sahaba [ra] to get their opinion. 

 

 

(1) first of all not all the Companions where of Righteousness.
(2) Not all the Companions Where Present on the day of the Election.
(3) Imam Ali (a.s) was not even Present on the day of the election. So how does this become justified?
(4) you failed to Answer My question on where does such a system Originate for appoint a leader of the Ummah as the successor of the prophet (a.s)?  

 

 

2.  Well, Sheikh Mufid [rah] - as I showed in the other topic - said that the Prophet [saw], after Ghadeer Khum, offered leadership to Abbas [ra].  So the onus of ignoring Ghadeer Khum is on your scholars and books 

 


Are you of Blind Ignorance? in the Same post I made clear to you what events took place before the issue happen and the verse the came down to Show no doubt on the successorship of Imam Ali (a.s). And I quoted from the same sources, which the book quotes from. If your failing to read, perhaps Add some logic to where your putting your time for.

 

 

3.  In the nations prior to this ummah, we do not know the exact details of how successors were appointed but we know that Prophethood had not ended.  For example, Yusha ibn Nun [as] was a prophet who succeeded Musa [as].  And we know Who appointed Prophets [asws].  But the door to Prophethood was closed shut with the appointment of Rasulullah [saw].  Reality of it is that Imamat is a "divine appointment" which rivals prophethood but disguises itself as leadership.  It is not in the Qur'an yet it is presented to us as an usool of our deen.  Nothing substantiates Imamat and the verse about Ibrahim [asws] does more damage (to Imamat) than good.  Essentially, this is the core issue that Sunnis have with Shias. 

 

 

(1) first of all Divine Guidance does not end and this is clear the narration: The Prophet (s) said: “The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.” Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010, Tradition #4483; Sahih Muslim (Arabic), Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Saudi Arabian Edition, v3, p1453, Tradition #10. And its clear that the Religion of Islam it self as a Religion Cannot Continue without of these Caliphs and therefore they are appointed, and thus making them of pure Righteousness. And what are you to say to the Successorship of Asif (a.s)? Or the successor ship of the Twelve after Isa (a.s)? or the Twelve Caliphs Appointed for Bani Israel by Allah, which you cannot ignore, it is know very well, that the time between prophet Isa (a.s) and prophet Muhammad (a.s) was more than 500-600 years, so who was guiding then? In in the verse of Ibrahin (a.s) you are making a false claims in where we are using it, as it proves that Only Allah has the right to appoint whom he will to guide the Nation, so where did you people come up with the system of electing the guide of the Nation? how is the Acts of the People more Justified than the Actions of Allah? Since when was such a system purely sinless? The system it self produced Muwaiyah and Yazid (l.a), as we know that Muwaiyah was appoitned y Umar and so on.

_______________________

 

      

 

If you are still shaking your head saying "no" then show me the Imamat of the Prophet [saw].  It is alleged that the Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] is found in Surah Baqarah and the Imamat of Imam Ali [ra] was declared at Ghadeer Khum.  It is believed that Imamat is above Nabuwat then that makes Ali [ra] better than our Prophet [saw].  But our Shia brothers say that that is not true because the Prophet [saw] is an Imam and a prophet.

 

 

 

 

 

As I Said in my Earlier posts:

 

"First Of all in the appointment of the Prophet peace be upon him, he is of a higher Position than Ibrahim (a.s) for Ibrahim is "Kaleem Allah" while the prophet (s) is "Habib Allah", in both their mentions in Prophethood, Prophet Ibrahim (a.s) was tested as mentioned in the verse above: "To earn" the position of Imamah, thus in making him a leader, such a position only came to him until he was tested, and he was of those prophets who had to go through such to earn the title, while Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) is the last Prophet of the Nations, and remember Prophet Ibrahim was not like prophet Muhammad (s) who was a prophet for the Whole entire beings of this World, and a leader to All, and therefore the Divine guidance cannot stop after his death, and thus appointing the very person who no one of the companions possess knowledge more than him, not matter at what level, as the prophet (s) said: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its door, and who ever seeks the city of knowledge, must come through its doors", And in knowing that Ali (a.s) is from Ahlulbayt (a.s) puts no doubt in his divine appointment, and lets not forget the issue that Ali (a.s) Is Only an Imam, while the prophet (a.s) Muhammad is a prophet (s) and higher than such a position." 

 

And also:
 

 
"First of all in your false theory you fail to cite the past occurrence of Successorship in the previous prophets, In his a prophet can be both a prophet (s) and an Imam. Just like Prophet Harun to Prophet Musa (a.s) whom we know the Harun (A.s) was the successor of prophet Mosa (a.s), and then we ask you what would you make of the the Narrations of Manizla? and clearly through such narrations Ali is the successor (a.s) that is appointed by Allah, By the prophet (a.s) and you should know, that such position can be separate in a person and both in a person, as the Successor or prophet Solomon (a.s) who is Asif, which you failed to reply to on our last post, and the Twelve successors of Prophet Is'a (a.s) and the Successors Of Bani Israel, whom Allah appointed, you cannot ignore such, and on this issue we are talking about appointment and not mere of "who is higher in Position".   
 
___________________


 

And the Rest follows in my Previous Reply


They consulted amongst themselves and agreed on Umar. The Ummah (the believers) then pledged their allegiance to him. 

 

(wasalam)

Not true brother. He consulted major Sahaba. 

 

 

Ali never talked about Ghadir because there is not appointment there. Don't go off-topic please.

 

 

 

(1) I asked a simple Question, When did the prophet (s) give the orders of Such to Engage in an Election?
(2) Not all the Companions where Present in the Election, nor was Ali (a.s) so how does that make it Justified.
(3) If your going to make false claims that Ghadeer Khum (The event was not of Appointment) you must be blind of History, can you please tell me why the Narration of the Thaqlain was said then? on Ghadeer khum? its clearly who is the guide here, and does Ali (a.s) need to tell people about Ghadeer khum when more than 40,00 people (in some narrations 130,000+) where present at the time?
_______

(wasalam)  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

They consulted amongst themselves and agreed on Umar. The Ummah (the believers) then pledged their allegiance to him. 

 

(wasalam)

Not true brother. He consulted major Sahaba. 

 

 

Ali never talked about Ghadir because there is not appointment there. Don't go off-topic please.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBgaVwriuf4

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

It really baffles me, when our Sunni brother's  try to convince us that the "Caliphate was done democratically". Yet, they somehow completely ignore the historical fact's, surrounding the process of the Caliphate….. Firstly,  Abu Bakr should have not  been in Medina, as he was ordered by Rasulallah to join Usama battalion and to leave Medina. Secondly, Umar was made  a Caliph while  Abu Bakr was  suffering from deliriousness, Abu Bakr had nominated Umar in a state of  Acute  illness. Yet, when Rasulallah  had asked for pen paper, Umar stated that Rasulallah has become delirious and was rejected pen paper!! Yet when Abu Bakr was suffering from the same deliriousness his nomination of Umar  was accepted???? And finally, the criteria for Uthmam selection is very disturbing, He was asked: would he follow the Sunna of Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthmam had said yes,  the  question i have for my Sunnie brother's why did Adul Remam say to Uthmam  follow the Sunna of the first two Caliph and not the Sunna of Rasulallah?


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

(M.H. Shakir)sura Baqara:30

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

This ayat prove that Only Allah appoint Khalifa.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

 

1.  it is know very well, that the time between prophet Isa (a.s) and prophet Muhammad (a.s) was more than 500-600 years, so who was guiding then?

 

2.  "First Of all in the appointment of the Prophet peace be upon him, he is of a higher Position than Ibrahim (a.s) for Ibrahim is "Kaleem Allah" while the prophet (s) is "Habib Allah", in both their mentions in Prophethood, Prophet Ibrahim (a.s) was tested as mentioned in the verse above: "To earn" the position of Imamah, thus in making him a leader, such a position only came to him until he was tested, and he was of those prophets who had to go through such to earn the title, while Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) is the last Prophet of the Nations, and remember Prophet Ibrahim was not like prophet Muhammad (s) who was a prophet for the Whole entire beings of this World, and a leader to All, and therefore the Divine guidance cannot stop after his death, and thus appointing the very person who no one of the companions possess knowledge more than him, not matter at what level, as the prophet (s) said: "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its door, and who ever seeks the city of knowledge, must come through its doors", And in knowing that Ali (a.s) is from Ahlulbayt (a.s) puts no doubt in his divine appointment, and lets not forget the issue that Ali (a.s) Is Only an Imam, while the prophet (a.s) Muhammad is a prophet (s) and higher than such a position." 

 

And also:

 

 
3.  "First of all in your false theory you fail to cite the past occurrence of Successorship in the previous prophets, In his a prophet can be both a prophet (s) and an Imam. Just like Prophet Harun to Prophet Musa (a.s) whom we know the Harun (A.s) was the successor of prophet Mosa (a.s), and then we ask you what would you make of the the Narrations of Manizla? and clearly through such narrations Ali is the successor (a.s) that is appointed by Allah, By the prophet (a.s) and you should know, that such position can be separate in a person and both in a person, as the Successor or prophet Solomon (a.s) who is Asif, which you failed to reply to on our last post, and the Twelve successors of Prophet Is'a (a.s) and the Successors Of Bani Israel, whom Allah appointed, you cannot ignore such, and on this issue we are talking about appointment and not mere of "who is higher in Position".   
 

 

 

Please, I beseech you, do not keep posting the same narrations over and over again.  While the rest of your post can be overlooked as quantity, I will respond to these points to get you to start reflecting on that which you copy-paste without much thought.

 

1.  Who guided people after 'Isa [asws] left and before Rasulullah [saw] came is important for you to substantiate your claim.  So the onus is on you since you are obsessed with this point.  What I wish to impart to you is that the door to prophethood was still open - in those 500 to 600 years - so the door of Divine Guidance was open.  Furthermore, Qur'an ended prophethood and Allah [swt] declares in the Qur'an that the deen has been perfected.  To look for another guide is to claim that the religion is not complete.  To compound upon that misguidance and say that we still need Divine Guidance is to say that prophethood has not ended nor did Rasulullah [saw] succeed in his mission, naudhibillah.  Imam Khomeini makes mention of this in his book that all Prophets [saw] failed in implementing the message, including our Prophet [saw], but Imam Mahdi [ra] will successfully fill the earth with justice.

 

2.  See, you can quote many narrations about Ali [ra] being virtuous and the City of Knowledge, et cetera, but you will not find one narration or verse that declares the Prophet [saw] as Imam.  You cannot prove his Imamat but you believe that Ali [ra] is an Imam.  So my brother, you are lying to me when you say that the Prophet [saw] is higher than Ali [ra] like when Christians say that God is One but He is Three, naudhibillah.  My challenge to you is to provide one narration that shows that the Prophet [saw] was declared Imam after he [saw] attained prophethood.  Also, in respect to the declaration of the supposed Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] and staying in line with the order presented in the verse in Surah Baqarah, when, where and why was the exception made for Ali [ra] and his descendants to become infallible Imams without attaining prophethood?

 

3.  I can mention other narrations in regards to other Sahaba [ra] that (almost) nearly match every virtue of Imam Ali [ra] mentioned in the hadiths but will you accept them?  And I failed to answer about successorship of Solomon [asws]?  If the door of prophethood was open then it is possible that Asif [as] was the next appointed successor.  But even then - I have read the tafsir of Ibn Kathir in this matter (which you used although it says nothing about successorship) - no where does it suggest that Asif [as] was the successor of Sulaiman [asws].  But but even if Asif [as] was the successor, we know that prophethood had not ended (back then) so it is easily explained as such.  What cannot be explained, however, is Imamat after the cessation of prophethood (which is why you are so helpless that you keep regurgitating the same narrations, the same points over and over again) :)

Edited by muslim720
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

1.  Who guided people after 'Isa [asws] left and before Rasulullah [saw] came is important for you to substantiate your claim.  So the onus is on you since you are obsessed with this point.  What I wish to impart to you is that the door to prophethood was still open - in those 500 to 600 years - so the door of Divine Guidance was open.  Furthermore, Qur'an ended prophethood and Allah [swt] declares in the Qur'an that the deen has been perfected.  To look for another guide is to claim that the religion is not complete.  To compound upon that misguidance and say that we still need Divine Guidance is to say that prophethood has not ended nor did Rasulullah [saw] succeed in his mission, naudhibillah.  Imam Khomeini makes mention of this in his book that all Prophets [saw] failed in implementing the message, including our Prophet [saw], but Imam Mahdi [ra] will successfully fill the earth with justice.

 

 

(1) You are making another false statements by Saying "Imam Khomenei" is saying the prophets (s) failed in their mention, and can any Muslim say such? be kind and provide us Proper reference to this claim.

(2) You seem to be avoiding the points I have made, In Reality the Door of Divine Guidance as you claim, is In fact open not for prophets Only (s), but also whom they appoint to guide the Ummah and I have mentioned the Examples in the previous post, and What is his clai myou making that the prophethood Did not stop? It ceased with prophet Muhammad (a.s) but of courses that does not mean Divine Guidance stops, as we have mentioned clearly the Religion of Islam cannot continue unless there are the Twelve Caliphs Whom Allah Appoints to guide the Nation, and how would you explain the case of Imam Mahdi (a.s)? He is an Imam and yet Prophet Isa (a.s) in Authentic Narration will pray behind him and assist him and so on. So you have yet not Made a clear stance on your previous Position.

 

 

2.  See, you can quote many narrations about Ali [ra] being virtuous and the City of Knowledge, et cetera, but you will not find one narration or verse that declares the Prophet [saw] as Imam.  You cannot prove his Imamat but you believe that Ali [ra] is an Imam.  So my brother, you are lying to me when you say that the Prophet [saw] is higher than Ali [ra] like when Christians say that God is One but He is Three, naudhibillah.  My challenge to you is to provide one narration that shows that the Prophet [saw] was declared Imam after he [saw] attained prophethood.  Also, in respect to the declaration of the supposed Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] and staying in line with the order presented in the verse in Surah Baqarah, when, where and why was the exception made for Ali [ra] and his descendants to become infallible Imams without attaining prophethood?

 

 

(1) you here are now making a False Analogy between us and the Christina, And yet you continue to fail to make or Answer what I have said above, You claim that I am lying, but I have made my Position clear on verse of Ibrahim (a.s) and I made clearly that the prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) is Higher than Imam Ali (a.s), and Why would I need to Prove that the prophet (s) was made an Imam> his position as the last Guide and prophet of this Nations is clear, and so, But if such is your claim, they I would need to ask you to provide me with evidence where Prophet Isa (a.s) was made an Imam? Where Prophet Musa (a.s) was and an Imam? Where the known prophets (s) to us are made Imams? Some are mentioned and some are not, and as I made earlier on, that the Position of Imamah and prophethood can be and one person, or can be separate in Chosen Individuals By Allah. You have not yet made your stance clear on Our an Imam of a nation can be chosen by the people and not By Allah.

 

 

 

3.  I can mention other narrations in regards to other Sahaba [ra] that (almost) nearly match every virtue of Imam Ali [ra] mentioned in the hadiths but will you accept them?  And I failed to answer about successorship of Solomon [asws]?  If the door of prophethood was open then it is possible that Asif [as] was the next appointed successor.  But even then - I have read the tafsir of Ibn Kathir in this matter (which you used although it says nothing about successorship) - no where does it suggest that Asif [as] was the successor of Sulaiman [asws].  But but even if Asif [as] was the successor, we know that prophethood had not ended (back then) so it is easily explained as such.  What cannot be explained, however, is Imamat after the cessation of prophethood (which is why you are so helpless that you keep regurgitating the same narrations, the same points over and over again) 

 

 

 

(1) No I will not Accept "All the companions" because  as we know some fought Imam Ali (a.s) and some fought Ahlulbayt (a.s) and some who gave allegiance to Ali (a.s) and some did not, so on your Idea of making all the Companions in the same line with Ali (a.s) is false, and you yet have not answered to the Event of Ghadeer khum. For Ibn Kathirs Ignorance, he would not mention his Position with no doubt be he made the statement that Asif know the "Ismol'Atham" and Such can only be Obtained and known by Prophets (s) and Successors Who are appointed by Allah, So I ask you why did Prophet Solomon (a.s) ask Asif to do such? Why did he not move the throne for him self, and we find that even with your own people have failed to state or give clear Evidence of the Twelve Caliphs of Islam whom  the prophet (a.s) spoke of.

______________

(wasalam)   

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

Allah s.w.t appoint successor. Another Proof

Prophet Zakariya is the father of prophet Yahya (in the Bible is called John the Baptist). He prayed to Allah, when he got old, to have a son as successor and to inherit from him and from the prophet Jacob family.

Surah Maryam Allay says:

{Kaf, Ha, Ya, 'Ayn, Sad. (1) [This is] a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His servant Zechariah (2) When he called to his Lord a private supplication. (3) He said, "My Lord, indeed my bones have weakened, and my head has filled with white, and never have I been in my supplication to You, my Lord, unhappy. (4) And indeed, I fear the successors after me, and my wife has been barren, so give me from Yourself an heir (5) Who will inherit me and inherit from the family of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, pleasing [to You]." (6) [He was told], "O Zechariah, indeed We give you good tidings of a boy whose name will be John. We have not assigned to any before [this] name."

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

Prophet Zakariya is the father of prophet Yahya (in the Bible is called John the Baptist). He prayed to Allah, when he got old, to have a son as successor and to inherit from him and from the prophet Jacob family.

Surah Maryam Allay says:

{Kaf, Ha, Ya, 'Ayn, Sad. (1) [This is] a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His servant Zechariah (2) When he called to his Lord a private supplication. (3) He said, "My Lord, indeed my bones have weakened, and my head has filled with white, and never have I been in my supplication to You, my Lord, unhappy. (4) And indeed, I fear the successors after me, and my wife has been barren, so give me from Yourself an heir (5) Who will inherit me and inherit from the family of Jacob. And make him, my Lord, pleasing [to You]." (6) [He was told], "O Zechariah, indeed We give you good tidings of a boy whose name will be John. We have not assigned to any before [this] name."

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

 

(1) You are making another false statements by Saying "Imam Khomenei" is saying the prophets (s) failed in their mention, and can any Muslim say such? be kind and provide us Proper reference to this claim.

(2) You seem to be avoiding the points I have made, In Reality the Door of Divine Guidance as you claim, is In fact open not for prophets Only (s), but also whom they appoint to guide the Ummah and I have mentioned the Examples in the previous post,

 

 

 

(3)  Why would I need to Prove that the prophet (s) was made an Imam>

 

 

 

 

(4) No I will not Accept "All the companions" because  as we know some fought Imam Ali (a.s)

 

(5)  and you yet have not answered to the Event of Ghadeer khum.

______________

(wasalam)   

 

 

1.  “All the prophets till this day came to implement justice, but they didn’t succeed. Even the last Prophet (s) who had come to guide the humanity, he also couldn’t do it. The only one who will succeed  in implementing justice around the world, is Mahdi the awaited.”

Mukhtarat min ahadith wa khitabat al imam al khomeini, p. 42

 

khomeini-05.jpg?w=630

 

2.  Please prove it from the Qur'an.  Furthermore, what Divine Guidance, what benefit has the 12th Imam brought to you in these hundreds of years of his occultation except for the poetry that you have authored in your head as pathetic justification for his inexistence which goes something like, "well the sun benefits us even if it is behind the clouds."  Try again!

 

3.  Ya akhi, you have to!  Since you play dumb - and please forgive me for using that word but for the lack of a better word, I had to stoop so low and use it - let me run your aqeedah past you.  Then it will be clear that you need to prove the Imamat of the Prophet [saw] for him to be higher than Ali [ra].  Without proving the Imamat of the Prophet [saw] and then to say that the Prophet [saw] is higher than Ali [ra] (who is believed to be the first of the twelve infallible Imams by the Shias) creates dichotomy.  It is as dichotomous as is the Christian claim that God is One but He is also Three.

 

In the book “Peshawar Nights”, the Shia scholar, Sultanu’l-Wa’izin Shirazi, says: “Since the holy prophet was superior to all other prophets Ali was also superior to them.”

 

Ayatollah Khomeini declared: “And an essential tenet of our Shi’ite sect is that the Imams have a position which is reached neither by the angels nor by any commisioned messenger of God.” (Hukumat-i-Islami, p.52-53)

 

Allamah Baqir Al-Majlisi says about the Imams: “Their preference [is] over the prophets and all the people.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, Vol 26, Chapter 6) He further stated: “…our Imams are higher [and] better than the rest of the prophets…they are more knowledgeable than the prophets…this is the main opinion of the Imami (Shia), and is only rejected by one who is ignorant about the traditions.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.297)

 

On the whole, after admission of the fact that the Imams are not prophets, we are bound to acknowledge the fact that they are superior to all Prophets and Awsiya (legatees) except our Prophet (salutations and peace upon him and his family).  To our knowledge there is no reason not to describe the Imams as Prophets except consideration to the status of the Final Prophet.  Our intellect too, cannot perceive a distinction between Nabuwwah (prophethood) and Imamah.

(Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.82)

 

4.  “With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”  (Nahjul Balagha sermon 126).

 

So the extreme love of Imam Ali [ra] has caused you to go away from rightfulness.  You are enraged at the mention of most Sahaba [ra] because there is a Shia hadith which says that only Abu Dharr, Miqdad and Salman Farsi (may Allah be pleased with them) remained Muslims.  Rest all became apostates, naudhibillah. 

 

But Allah says, "Muhammad (SAW) is the Messenger of Allāh, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.  You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allāh and (His) Good Pleasure.  The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of (their) prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Taurāt (Torah).  But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, it then becomes thick, and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allāh has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islāmic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad SAW till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward."  (Qur'an 48:29)

 

5.  Trust me, you do not know the context of Ghadeer Khum.  If you do, you will do anything and everything to either ignore or reject it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

Succession to the Prophet Muhammad (Imama)

The universal messengers of God had successors. God appointed His messengers for the guidance of humankind. God also appointed successors to the prophets and messengers as a matter of necessity. Prophet Abraham was succeeded by two of his sons, Ishmael and Isaac. Prophet Moses during his lifetime and afterwards was succeeded by his brother, Aaron.Even Prophet Jesus had successors. Similarly, the Prophet Muhammad was succeeded by twelve distinguished successors, one after another. These successors are called imams and were appointed by God, not by humankind. The right to ordain imams belongs to God, and the Quran makes this point in many verses, “And remember when your Lord said to the angels, 'Verily I am going to place a successor [khalifa]'” (2:30). “And remember when the Lord of Abraham tried him with certain commands which he fulfilled; Allah said to him, 'Verily I am going to make you a leader [imam] of mankind'“ (2:124).God addressed Prophet David as such, “O David! Verily We have placed you as a successor on earth” (38:26). God also attributes the right of appointing leaders to Himself; “We made from among them leaders, giving guidance under Our command” (32:24). During the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad, he mentioned specifically the names of the leaders [imams] that would come after him. The Prophet said that there would be twelve leaders, and that all of them would be descendents of Quraysh.( Bukhari, The Book of Ahkam (Laws), v.1 p.101;

Muslim, Kitab al-Imaara (The Book of Leadership), v.1 narrations 4-6.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

First read your own boks then say. In your book Imam Mahdi is mentioned.

Who Is Imam Mahdi? Imam Mahdi (meaning : The Guided one) is the descendent of Prophet Muhammad PBUHHadhrat Abdullah bin Mas'ood (R.A.) says that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, "This world will not come to an end until one person from my progeny rule over the Arabs, and his name will be the same as my name." (Tirmidhi) 

Hadhrat Ali (R.A.) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, "Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness,  just as it initially was filled with oppression." (Abu Dawood) 

oppression has increased day by day after the demise of Holy Prophet s.a.w. but inshallah after the advent Imam Mahdi a.t.f.a will fill the earth with justice. Ameen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

In Daawate Zul ashirah H.Prophet s.a.w.a announce Ali a.s his s.a.w 's successor. First time. Then many times also in Ghadir e khum. In His S.a.w.a deathbed he wanted to right his will but Umar said H.Prophet ko khizyan hogaya hai anddenied to give pen n paper. Plz refer to ur books.

See fidak history also.

Why u people refuse to accept the Ali a.s wilayat. He is one of the panjeran. From ahlulbayt. Unlimited qualities according to ur books.

Read hadees e saqlain. Sura 33:33 Ayat. Read MUBAHILA.

u don't want to follow rhe pure progeny of Holy Prophet

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

"as we have mentioned clearly the Religion of Islam cannot continue unless there are the Twelve Caliphs Whom Allah Appoints to guide the Nation"

Where does it say they will be appointed?  Here is the narration:

The Prophet [saw] said, "The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.” Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010

 

Again, where does it say that they will be appointed, brother TheIslamHistory?


You said, "Why did he not move the throne for him self, and we find that even with your own people have failed to state or give clear Evidence of the Twelve Caliphs of Islam whom the prophet (a.s) spoke of."  You cannot pick-and-choose one hadith about a matter and pass your fatwa.  You have to look at multiple narrations talking about the same matter to get a clear picture.

Book 20, Number 4480:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: Islam will continue to be TRIUMPHANT until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

Book 20, Number 4481:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: This order will continue to be DOMINANT until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.

Let us say for a split second that the twelve caliphs were the 12 Imams [ra] that the Prophet (pbuh) spoke about.  Since we are in the month of Muharram, explain how Islam was triumphant when Imam Hussain [ra] was martyred?  How can Islam be triumphant when the ummah is in a state of chaos and the leader, Imam Hussain [ra] (according to our Shia brothers) was martyred?

And let us take a look at the hadith you have quoted once more:
"The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.”  Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010, Tradition #4483; Sahih Muslim (Arabic), Kitab al-Imaara,

Also a brother shared with me that this is the only hadith he could find in Sahih Muslim which comes close to what you have quoted.

Book 20, Number 4483

It has been narrated on the authority of Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas who said: I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, OR you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival).

Where does it say that the Imams [ra] will be appointed by Allah [swt]?  As a challenge, find ONE single verse in the Qur'an where we see Imamat of infallibles which mentions that Allah [swt] will appoint them!


You mentioned that "its clear that the Religion of Islam it self as a Religion Cannot Continue without of these Caliphs and therefore they are appointed, and thus making them of pure Righteousness."

No where does it say that they will be appointed.  But you insert "therefore they are appointed" when you give your own explanation.  To remind you gently, we do not need your explanation or tafseer :)

Also if you are going to use our books against us then you cannot handpick hadiths to your liking.

We read in sahih Muslim:

Book 20, Number 4486:

It has been reported on the authority of Ibn 'Umar who said: I entered the apartment of (my sister) Hafsa. She said: Do yoa know that your father is not going to nominate his successor? I said: He won't do that (i.e. he would nominate). She said: He is going to do that. The narrator said: I took an oath that I will talk to him about the matter. I kept quiet until the next morning, still I did not talk to him, and I felt as if I were carryint, a mountain on my right hand. At last I came to him and entered his apartment. (Seeing me) he began to ask me about the condition of the people, and I informed him (about them). Then I said to him: I heard something from the people and took an oath that I will communicate it to you. They presume that you are not going to nominate a successor. If a grazer of camels and sheep that you had appointed comes back to you leaving the cattle, you will (certainly) think that the cattle are lost. To look after the people is more serious and grave. (The dying Caliph) was moved at my words. He bent his head in a thoughtful mood for some time and raised it to me and said: God will doubtlessly protect His religion. If I do not nominate a successor (I have a precedent before me), for the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) did not nominate his successor. And if I nominate one (I have a precedent), for Abu Bakr did nominate. The narrator (Ibn Umar) said: By God. when he mentioned the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr, I (at once) understood that he would not place anyone at a par with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and would not nominate anyone."

I remind you, no where in the Qur'an or our authentic hadiths does it say that Allah [swt] will appoint Imams or Caliphs.

Basically, you have to prove from the Qur'an that Allah [swt] appointed infallible Imams AFTER Prophet (pbuh) for this ummah.  Since Imamat, as per your aqeedah, is an usool-e-deen, you should not struggle this much to find one precise, clear verse where Allah says that He Will appoint Imams for this ummah.  If something is usool, it has to be in the Qur'an.

Lastly, here is my final point that will shatter your reasoning which insinuates that since previous nations had Prophets [asws] appointed for them as leaders then there must have be leaders appointed for us to rest.  We see how clearly Allah [swt] speaks about appointing Prophets [asws] as leaders for previous nations but why has He not said the same for the ummah of Rasulullah [saw]?  You just shot yourself in the foot :)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

If the Prophet (pbuh) left it for the people to consult then why did he not leave the people to consult who will rule before leaving for the battle of Hunayn? Why did he appoint someone to rule until he is back? And let us not forget that this is on a very small scale. The death of the Prophet (pbuh) is a larger scale, so if on a small scale he appointed a ruler, why did he not appoint a ruler for the larger scale?

 

Your arguments seem illogical.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Imamat is proven in Allah demanding unconditional obedience to the leader. The only way to get such a leader that will not command to sin is from divine appointment. Is there any other way to have such a guarantee?

Edited by majafri
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to Imam Ali (as):

 

"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses, except that after me there will be no other prophet?" (Ibn Majah, Sunan)(Bukhari)

 

If anyone ponders over this hadith, it is quite clear that when Prophet Musa went 40 days away he appointed his brother Harun as his successor, but people left Harun (as) and took Baqara (cow) for their leader, in the same way even after Prophet (pbuh) appointing Imam Ali (as) and comparing him to Harun (as), the Muslims left Imam Ali (as) and took some others for their guidance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1.  “All the prophets till this day came to implement justice, but they didn’t succeed. Even the last Prophet (s) who had come to guide the humanity, he also couldn’t do it. The only one who will succeed  in implementing justice around the world, is Mahdi the awaited.”

Mukhtarat min ahadith wa khitabat al imam al khomeini, p. 42

 

 

 

 

 

And you sought that such a statement is wrong? In the Context Where he could of of course meant it, that the Implementation on Justice to the Whole world could not be implemented by the prophets (s) and the ones previous, and if so they did have they? and that is why the Significance of Imam Mahdi (a.f) is at its most importance and his position is a leader of this world is that of high priority, and we find that what Imam Al-Khoemnei (qas) has said, does not even Degrade the Status of the prophets (s) nor the prophet (s) him self, but he made a Clear statement o the case of World Justice, and he mentions in that same Paragraph, and so this does not mean or claim that the prophets have failed the message, this would be Invalid, as we know of today very well the implantation of Islam, however Justice is yet to come to Fill the World peace and Prosperity.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

2.  Please prove it from the Qur'an.  Furthermore, what Divine Guidance, what benefit has the 12th Imam brought to you in these hundreds of years of his occultation except for the poetry that you have authored in your head as pathetic justification for his inexistence which goes something like, "well the sun benefits us even if it is behind the clouds."  Try again!

 

 

Sorry are you making rhetoric Statement? its very vague, and it seems you are Aiming at the the Subject of the Occultation of the Imam Mahdi (a.f), By dear brother we have many Traditions that he will "Appear" and not be "born" and he Imam (A.F) is the Son of Imam hassan-Alaskary and we have many Narrations to prove so, but on the issue of him being born, we have no such Narrations, nor will you find any if Antithetic Chains. And what verse are you Requesting for me to prove? Proper Statements would be nice.

___________________________________________________________________________________

  

 

 

 

 
3.  Ya akhi, you have to!  Since you play dumb - and please forgive me for using that word but for the lack of a better word, I had to stoop so low and use it - let me run your aqeedah past you.  Then it will be clear that you need to prove the Imamat of the Prophet [saw] for him to be higher than Ali [ra].  Without proving the Imamat of the Prophet [saw] and then to say that the Prophet [saw] is higher than Ali [ra] (who is believed to be the first of the twelve infallible Imams by the Shias) creates dichotomy.  It is as dichotomous as is the Christian claim that God is One but He is also Three.

 

Brother you are Using False Information on Certain issues here and disrespectful trying to make an Analogy between us and the Christians, and here you are very wrong, and here you desire proof of the Imamate of prophet Muhammad (s),  My dear, as I said Earlier concerning the verse of Ibrahim (a.s) we use such a verse to prove that such appointment can only Be chosen By Allah and not mere Companions whom even not all of them where present at the time, which puts Question mark on the Reasons of Such a process to take place, and ordered it to? Certainly no the prophet (s). To your Ignorant statement and Analogy you have cited no Evidence to support, through the verse of Purification (33:33) and verse (4:59) such Concept is proven. And when looking back throughout the history of the those chosen, before the prophet (s), its clear that the Concept of "Wasi" Existed, While the Concept of "Electing a Caliphate" Did not exists, nor come into place, only after Abu'bakr and Umar brought such a system without the Order of the prophet (s), and without the Acknowledgement of Imam Ali (a.s).

_________________________________________

 

 

 

In the book “Peshawar Nights”, the Shia scholar, Sultanu’l-Wa’izin Shirazi, says: “Since the holy prophet was superior to all other prophets Ali was also superior to them.”

 

Ayatollah Khomeini declared: “And an essential tenet of our Shi’ite sect is that the Imams have a position which is reached neither by the angels nor by any commisioned messenger of God.” (Hukumat-i-Islami, p.52-53)

 

 

 

Yes and we have discussed this previously in our last Discussion "Imam Ali (a.s) Higher than the previous Prophets" and in this we cited a Narration made Authentic by one of the Ahlul-Sunnah Scholars and if you request more of such, you are more than Welcome.In knowing that the prophet (s) is the Greatest of All the previous Prophets (s) and "His" Wasi is Certainly greater in Position than the Previous Prophets (s), and what are you to say to the Narration of Manizal? For Ali is that of the Position of Harun to Musa (a.s) as the prophet (s) has said, which is also mentioned in the Sahih's of your accept books, one surely would know the position of Ali (a.s) by Analyzing the Relationship between Harun and Musa (a.s).

It must have something to do with future of Islam (said many times) that is why the Prophet (s) said: ‘Your position to me is like the position of Harun to Musa, except that there will be no prophet after me’ – thus alluding to a relationship that continuedbeyond his (s) lifetime.      

     

And therefore its clear the Wasi of prophet Muhammad al Mustafa (Peace and blessings Upon him) is Imam Ali (a.s), in this Argument many claim that Harun died before Musa (a.s) and this is Correct, but what exactly did prophet Musa (a.s) ask Allah?

 

 

 

“Musa said: O Allah! Assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Harun. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint… (Allah) said: “We granted your requests, O Musa” (20:29-36)

 

 

Here prophet Musa (a.s) ask Allah to make him his Successor and Vizier over his Nation that Musa (a.s) was guiding, so in such Situations, whether he died before prophet Musa (a.s), this does not change the Request that was made By prophet Musa (a.s), nor does it change the position that was given to him By Allah at that very moment, and I ask you, even when he died, Yusha (a.s) was chosen By Allah and not by the people, so here we find the so called System of Electing a caliph, comes under the banner of falsehood and no Foundation from the Laws of Islam sent down to earth by Allah. 

 

 

“And indeed We gave Musa the Book and We did appoint with him Harun as an Apostle and his Vizier” (25:35).
 
 
And do I need to say anything Else here? or is it not clear enough for you? What the system of Appointment is What has been Done from the start of the birth of Adam (a.s) and to the end of this World? while the Concept of "Election" is made by those who sought Position and power over the their own nation. And so its clear that prophet Musa (a.s) was given the Book by Allah as was prophet Mohammed (s). Harun (a.s) was appointed as a Prophet and as Musa (a.s)’s Vizier. Hadith Manzila points to the same relationship between the Prophet (s) and Ali (a.s). The Qur’an states that Harun (a.s) was the khalifa of Musa (a.s), and compels us to acknowledge that this relationship therefore must also apply to Ali (a.s) and Muhammad(s). For, when Musa (a.s) was called away by his Lord to Mount Sinai he said to Harun (a.s) as he departed:
 
 

In verse 7:142 Allah swt mentions the words of Nabi Musa [as] to Harun [as] before he went up into the Mountain:

وَقَالَ مُوسَى لأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمِي
 
 

The word ukhulfni is the root origin of the Arabic word Khalifa (Caliph), by whose use Allah, who is above all error, is directly implying that Harun (a.s) would now take Musa (a.s)’ s role among the people as their khalifa, the position that Musa (a.s) had now been passed to his brother Harun (a.s). If you look at the available English translations they confirm this, although they don’t use the words caliph. A successor is a person who takes the place of another when that person leaves, whether temporarily or forever. This makes it clear that Nabi Harun [a.s] held the position of Caliph during the life of Musa [a.s]. Now let us turn to the hadith. Sometimes in translation of the beautiful marvelous Arabic of the Qur’an, whose depth one can spend a whole lifetime studying, the true meaning of a word of Allah is lost. By study of the pure classical Quranic Arabic used here we shall show the position the Qur’an gives Harun (a.s) to Musa (.as) and thereby the position Muhammad(s) gave Ali (a.s) in this hadith, for this verse clarifies the relationship of Harun (a.s) to Musa (a.s). In English the one Arabic word ukhulfni chosen by Allah in 7:142 has been translated in English transliteration in manner that indicate succession.

 

 

[Mohsin Khan]: And Mûsa (Moses) said to his brother Harun (Aaron): Replace me among my people.

[shakir]: and Musa said to his brother Haroun: Take my place among my people.

[Pickthal]: and Moses said unto his brother, Aaron: Take my place among the people.

 

it is clear from this verse that in Musa (a.s)’s absence Harun (a.s), who had till then been his vizier, became the acting khalifa.

This is not surprising, only logical, since if a Premier departs for a substantial period of time without the benefits of modern-day communication his second in command, his vizier, would remain to take up the mantle of leadership. And indeed, Muhammad(s) was to follow Musa (a.s)’s example in years to come when he would appoint his own vizier, Ali ibn Abu Talib (a.s) as the khalifa to succeed him. Therefore it should come as no surprise that Muhammad(s) said the following concerning Ali ibn Abu Talib (a.s):

 

“Your position to me is like the position of Harun to Musa, except that there shall be no Prophet after me”.

______________________________________________________________

 

In Addition one might One might Also Add and Assure him self the following Narrations to Support my stance on this issue:

 

 
 In Sahih Al -Tirmidhi:
 
Jabir ibn Abdullah said, "I saw the Prophet (saw) during his pilgrimage as was on his camel speaking, so I heard him say, "I left you that you must abide by that you will never go astray, the book of Allah (swt) and my Ahlulbayt (a.s)."
 
Footnote: Narration is Saheeh (Authentic) according to other narrations, the chain of this narration however is weak, because of Zayd Ibn Al-Hasan he is Qurashi and Al-Anmati.
 
-Jamia Tirmidhi Sunan Al -Tirmidhi. Vol. 6, Pg. # 335.
 
 
And the following:

Al-Tabarani:
  
Narrated Zaid b. Arqam said The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: ''I am leaving amongst you the two onuses; The book of Allah (swt) and my Family whom they are my Household (a.s), and they shall never separate until they come to me at lake-font.''

Footnote: Narration is Saheeh (Authentic) according to criteria of Bukhari and Muslim.

Narrated Zaid b. Arqam the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: ''I am leaving amongst you the two onuses, the book of Allah (swt) and my Family (Peace be upon them) whom they are my Household, and they shall never separate till they reach me at lake-font (Kawthar).'

 

Source:  Al-Mu'jam Al-Kabir. Vol. 5, Pg. # 169 - 170, H # 4980 - 4981.
 
 

 

So dear brother I am sure you are more than aware of this narration which is Also mentioned in the Two Sahihs. As so, as the prophet (s) said, We must abide and obey both to avoid going astray, and that is the Book of Allah and His Ahlulbayt (a.s). Given such a narrations what has also reached the level of "Muta'awatir" I would now ask you, if we Only believed in the prophet (s) an the previous prophets before him, do you think that our actions and will be accepted if we do not obey the Book of Allah and the Ahlulbayt (a.s) of the prophet (s)? As you can see they are much of Important of that is to the Book of Allah (Quran), and so it not only proves that the Ahlulbayt (a.s) are higher than the previous prophets (s), but also we are to abide and obey them, to avoid going astray, and how many people do you think Obeyed Ali (a.s)? compared to those who have long fought him on the issue of who should rule whom? And I am sure you are more than aware in knowing that when we say "Ahlulbayt (a.s)" this includes the prophet (s). As I am sure you know the verse of Purification (33:33) what came on the Ahlulbayt (a.s) of the prophet Under the Cloak (kisa).

________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

Allamah Baqir Al-Majlisi says about the Imams: “Their preference [is] over the prophets and all the people.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, Vol 26, Chapter 6) He further stated: “…our Imams are higher [and] better than the rest of the prophets…they are more knowledgeable than the prophets…this is the main opinion of the Imami (Shia), and is only rejected by one who is ignorant about the traditions.” (Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.297)

 

The following Highlighted in the Color red "Does not Exist" but in fact is Manipulated by the Original words in the Context of the the narration in volume 26, page 297: The Prophet (s) and his Successors (Imams) are of the most high, thus this does not claim that they are higher than prophet Muhammad (a.s), and it Indicates the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and the Successorship of Imam Ali (a.s).

 

 

post-83202-0-11099500-1383970864_thumb.jpost-83202-0-16684200-1384400701_thumb.j
 
 
 
__________________________________

 

 
 
 
 

 

On the whole, after admission of the fact that the Imams are not prophets, we are bound to acknowledge the fact that they are superior to all Prophets and Awsiya (legatees) except our Prophet (salutations and peace upon him and his family).  To our knowledge there is no reason not to describe the Imams as Prophets except consideration to the status of the Final Prophet.  Our intellect too, cannot perceive a distinction between Nabuwwah (prophethood) and Imamah.

(Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.82)

 

 

 

(1) concerning the Issue of Imam Ali (a.s) to be higher than the previous Prophets that is explain above.

(2) In that last Sentence you have taken out of Context please read the rest. (If you Request so, I will Write the Full narration. 

__________________________________________________________

 

 

  “With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”  (Nahjul Balagha sermon 126). So the extreme love of Imam Ali [ra] has caused you to go away from rightfulness.  You are enraged at the mention of most Sahaba [ra] because there is a Shia hadith which says that only Abu Dharr, Miqdad and Salman Farsi (may Allah be pleased with them) remained Muslims.  Rest all became apostates, naudhibillah. 

 

 

 

 

(1) first of all I would like to point out you are using Emotive language to Support your stance here, and so cannot be taken as proof, and your claim that we love Ali to much, if that of false created by your own thoughts, which is not the best thing to do. Here you claimed that "I" am enraged to mentioned the Companions. You should have at least first asked my Opinion about the companions and then perhaps went into your baseless Criticism. As you know, We respect the Companions of the prophet (s) by dear brother, but we do not respect those who have fought Ahlulbayt (a.s). And May I ask: Do you deem those who have fought Imam Ali (a.s) to be of Righteousness and guidance? Those of such people who have fought Ahlulbayt (a.s), who have oppressed Ahlulbayt (a.s) are of no guidance. And so, you cannot deem everyone who Rotates around the prophet (s) to be a faithful Companions. So perhaps do your Research and then come back to me Concerning this issue.

(2) According the Ahlul-Sunnah and the High scholars such as Ibn Hijir, one who does not believe In Abu bakr and Umar as Caliphs of this Nation are "Kuf'ar", so I ask you, with the four Individuals that you have mentioned above, because they did not pledge their Allegiance to Abu Bakr and Umar, does that make them of the Mio'shrikeen? Does that make them of no worth? are they out of the fold of Islam? And also Fatima (a.s) never gave allegiance to them, and perhaps put in mind, what right did they have to take Fadak from Fatima (a.s)? Are we no suppose to Obey Ahlulbayt (a.s)? Are they not of the same level as the book of Allah (quran)?

(3) I cite the following Narration; as we read in  Volume 4, Book 55, Number 568, Narrated by Ibn Abbas:  The Prophet said, "You will be gathered (on the Day of Judgment), bare-footed, naked and not circumcised." He then recited:--'As We began the first creation, We, shall repeat it: A Promise We have undertaken: Truly we shall do it.' (21.104) He added, "The first to be dressed on the Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham, and some of my companions will be taken towards the left side (i.e. to the (Hell) Fire), and I will say: 'My companions! My companions!' It will be said: 'They renegade from Islam after you left them.' Then I will say as the Pious slave of Allah (i.e. Jesus) said. 'And I was a witness Over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You took me up You were the Watcher over them, And You are a witness to all things. If You punish them. They are Your slaves And if You forgive them, Verily you, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (5.120-121)

So to say my dear brother Not "All" the companions are of trust, an they are not Infallible, and not all of them have followed the prophet (s) rightly, not have they Done what he has ordered them to so. And Clearly there are only "Some" of the companions who were truthful after the Passing of the prophet peace and blessing Upon him.

____________________________________________________________________________ 

 

 

 

And then you go by Mentioning the Following verse to Support your "Emotive Language":

 

But Allah says, "Muhammad (SAW) is the Messenger of Allāh, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.  You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allāh and (His) Good Pleasure.  The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of (their) prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Taurāt (Torah).  But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, it then becomes thick, and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allāh has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islāmic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad SAW till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward."  (Qur'an 48:29)

 

 

in the following verse, it does claim that all those who have followed the prophet (s) are of heaven, or of righteousness, for many people prayed behind the prophet (s), but does that make them righteous and purely of no sin and mistake? while in many cases we have seen those companions who have fought Imam Ali (a.s) in the War of Suffin and Jamal, and what of those who have supported Muwaiyah In his Oppression Against the Followers of Imam Hassan (a.s)? So clearly in your Objective of mentioning such, it does not support your calim what so ever.  

 

______________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

"as we have mentioned clearly the Religion of Islam cannot continue unless there are the Twelve Caliphs Whom Allah Appoints to guide the Nation"

Where does it say they will be appointed?  Here is the narration:

The Prophet [saw] said, "The Religion (Islam) will continue until the Hour (Day of Resurrection), having Twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh.” Sahih Muslim. (English ver.), Chapter DCCLIV, v3, p1010

 

Again, where does it say that they will be appointed, brother TheIslamHistory?

 

 

(1) First of all, if such Caliphs are Mandatory for the Religion of Islam to have in place and needs, then it makes it clear to us that such Caliphs must be of righteousness and Guidance, and therefore, if we were to put your Ideology that the system of electing is correct to elect a Caliph, then how can the Opinion and knowledge of the people to elect a guide, be Better than Allah's Choosing? and therefore such a system is false, and you find clearly that all those of the prophets and their Wasi's are always chosen by Allah and appointed, and are not Elected, and its clear from the verses I mentioned in the last post on "Why Do shais hate Abu bakr", which you have failed to reply to. 

(2) do you Ignore that fact that Imam Mahdi (a.s) is chosen By Allah? and Isa (a.s) will pray behind him? he is bound to be the Last caliph of the Twelve, so you cannot ignore that fact the they all must appointed, and till today the Ahul-Sunnah, have given no clear Identification of the Twelve Caliphs, and if they did like with Ibn-Tayimah, It contradicts each other.

______________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

You said, "Why did he not move the throne for him self, and we find that even with your own people have failed to state or give clear Evidence of the Twelve Caliphs of Islam whom the prophet (a.s) spoke of."  You cannot pick-and-choose one hadith about a matter and pass your fatwa.  You have to look at multiple narrations talking about the same matter to get aclear picture.

 

(1) I did not make a Fatwa, please learn to use proper Language.

(2) Okay you mentioned narrations under this statement, but how are they related?

(3) You did not Answer the Question. Please If you cannot, then think over your Beliefs.

__________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

Let us say for a split second that the twelve caliphs were the 12 Imams [ra] that the Prophet (s) spoke about.  Since we are in the month of Muharram, explain how Islam was triumphant when Imam Hussain [ra] was martyred?  How can Islam be triumphant when the ummah is in a state of chaos and the leader, Imam Hussain [ra] (according to our Shia brothers) was martyred?

 

 

 

 do you forget the Oppression of Yazid of the Nation of the prophet (s)? Without the Death and blood of Imam Hussain (a.s) Islam would have lost, and this is shown clearly that even the prophet (s) Was told of this tragedy by Allah through Jebrail (a.s): I have posted the narrations in this topic from the narrations of Ahlul-Sunnah (ClickHere)

 

__________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

Where does it say that the Imams [ra] will be appointed by Allah [swt]?  As a challenge, find ONE single verse in the Qur'an where we see Imamat of infallibles which mentions that Allah [swt] will appoint them!

(1) explain Above.

(2) You are Wrong, and you have Purposely Ignored the Authentic Tradition and verse that I posted in "Books Concerning Bukhari"

(3) Please Go to the post Of 4:59 of Uli al amr, On post 819# or 891# where I have mentioned Clear verses. if you can refute such, I will consider making a Worthy Reply.

_________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

Also if you are going to use our books against us then you cannot handpick hadiths to your liking.

  

(1) Narrations that are Authentic are they to be Ignored?

(2) and how well do you know the the Six scholars of the Six Sahihs? do you have any knowledge of the books they Produced?

(3) Do some reading. Might be helpful in your case.

_______________________________________________________________________ 

 

 

 

I remind you, no where in the Qur'an or our authentic hadiths does it say that Allah [swt] will appoint Imams or Caliphs.
 

 

 

 

(1) Do you find Ironic how you post something your not even sure of since you have no evidence?

(2) I mentioned Many verses and Traditions/Narrations in the debate "of 4:59 Uli al amr" post. Please Read the Dialogue and try to refute the Chains of such narrations that I have mentioned (Which you cannot; Since they are approved by Accepted Imams of yours).

 

_________________________________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 You just shot yourself in the foot 

 

 

A very common Alliteration, Not the best Insult.

_____________________________________

و في ايمان الله

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Not worth a response - because you regurgitated material that you have flooded topics with before - but I would like to add my two cents.

 

1.  Look, when it comes to Harun [as] taking Musa's [as] place, you have proof from the Qur'an.  Where is the verse that talks about infallible Imams [ra]?  Where do you read that Allah [swt] will appoint successors for this ummah?  Now you will run back to narrations and re-flood this topic with selectively handpicked narrations that add to quantity but carry no quality.

 

2.  What I shared from Bihar ul Anwar, even if it is not there, makes no difference because I brought more than one source that affirms that Shia aqeedah that Imams [ra] are above all the Prophets [asws] except Rasulullah [saw].  Until you prove the Imamat of Prophet [saw] from the Qur'an and hadith - like our Shia brothers point us to the explicit announcement of the Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] - regardless of how many times they say otherwise, I will always consider it that in Jaffari madhab, Imam Ali [ra] is ranked above all Prophets, including Rasulullah [saw], naudhibillah, because Imamat is above Nabuwat (as per Shia aqeedah). 

 

PS - I love how you evaded the matter of Islam being triumphant when the 12 Caliphs [ra] are in power but you won't answer whether or not Islam was triumphant when Imam Hussain [ra] was martyred?!  Therefore, I urge you to properly read that which you paste blindly.

Edited by muslim720
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The following Highlighted in the Color red "Does not Exist" but in fact is Manipulated by the Original words in the Context of the the narration in volume 26, page 297: The Prophet (s) and his Successors (Imams) are of the most high, thus this does not claim that they are higher than prophet Muhammad (a.s), and it Indicates the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and the Successorship of Imam Ali (a.s).

 

This is how, followers of Omar are. Not surprised that they dont understand, Prophet (saww) left Quran and Ah al-Bayt (as) as successors.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Not worth a response - because you regurgitated material that you have flooded topics with before - but I would like to add my two cents.

 

 

 

(1) First of all it is not Rational to reject Material that is in the core of the Context which your sects use
(2) Making an Irony of this statement, you have made the same statements in out last post which you have failed to respond to: "Why do Shia's Hate Abu bakr".

_________________________________________________________________

 

1.  Look, when it comes to Harun [as] taking Musa's [as] place, you have proof from the Qur'an.  Where is the verse that talks about infallible Imams [ra]?  Where do you read that Allah [swt] will appoint successors for this ummah?  Now you will run back to narrations and re-flood this topic with selectively handpicked narrations that add to quantity but carry no quality.

 

 

(1) I gave verses Linked to the Debate of "Uli al amr", So either you are evading the Argument, or either you refuse to Open a new Tab on your Explorer.
(2) Narrations of the prophet (s), Explain certain verses, and According to the Ahlul-Sunnah a verse cannot be simply explained without the Narrations being the Supporter of it; to cast out the Doubts.

_____________________________________

 

2.  What I shared from Bihar ul Anwar, even if it is not there, makes no difference because I brought more than one source that affirms that Shia aqeedah that Imams [ra] are above all the Prophets [asws] except Rasulullah [saw].  Until you prove the Imamat of Prophet [saw] from the Qur'an and hadith - like our Shia brothers point us to the explicit announcement of the Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] - regardless of how many times they say otherwise, I will always consider it that in Jaffari madhab, Imam Ali [ra] is ranked above all Prophets, including Rasulullah [saw], naudhibillah, because Imamat is above Nabuwat (as per Shia aqeedah). 

 

 

(1) Imam Ali (a.s) is not linked Above the Prophet (s), my dear you are heavily Arguing with no bases, as the Context you have provided was false and Incomplete.
(2) I have proven Imamate before which I have you the Topic to Refer to.
(3) You are Forcing a Belief which I do not Approve of, this could be called a "Justified View; Or Critique"
(4) I have given Narrations. Which you Refuse to Respond to. (The Audience Can see the above).

____________________________________________________________________________  

 

 

 

 

PS - I love how you evaded the matter of Islam being triumphant when the 12 Caliphs [ra] are in power but you won't answer whether or not Islam was triumphant when Imam Hussain [ra] was martyred?!  Therefore, I urge you to properly read that which you paste blindly.

 

 

 

 

(1) I did not evade such an Objection at all, I made my statement clear as you can see above in My Response.

(2) It is not Mandatory to be in Power to have Castle, Gold, Servants, To rule the Religion of Islam, This is a false View, as What Allah sends down to Humanity (eg. Prophets) it is up to them whether to accept or to refuse, and therefore the Masses are no the Determent of Who is guide of the Message brought to by the prophet (s). ( The above was a Clear Answer).
__________________________________

(wasalam)   

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The fact that you are asking me to go elsewhere (to another topic) proves your helplessness.  But I gauged it long ago because I have read that topic.  You failed to answer it there and you still are unable to bring one verse.  In simple, plain English, Usool is something that has to be mentioned in the Qur'an.  The verse about "ulil amr" clearly states that when we have differences, we refer FIRST to Allah [swt] (the Qur'an that is).  It is strange that an Usool (Imamat) does not have one explicit verse in the Qur'an whereas the Holy Book is replete with verses about Tauheed, Nabuwa, Adala and Qiyamah!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...