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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ali A.s Is Rightful Khalifa

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The fact that you are asking me to go elsewhere (to another topic) proves your helplessness.  But I gauged it long ago because I have read that topic.  You failed to answer it there and you still are unable to bring one verse.  In simple, plain English, Usool is something that has to be mentioned in the Qur'an.  The verse about "ulil amr" clearly states that when we have differences, we refer FIRST to Allah [swt] (the Qur'an that is).  It is strange that an Usool (Imamat) does not have one explicit verse in the Qur'an whereas the Holy Book is replete with verses about Tauheed, Nabuwa, Adala and Qiyamah!

 

 

 

 

Dear brother Did you no check the post of the Analysis? between page 32-34? I gave verses there, which till now no one has Rejected. it was a full debate, which I doubt you have read it all, Would you like me to Copy and past it for you here? Or is it hard to Open a new tab and read? How Am I Hopeless? The verse (which I have proven is Linked to the Twelve Caliphs Which the prophet Told of, and I show Clear Narrations to prove so. I advise you to learn some of your Own sources and where they Originate from and Whom wrote them. Since you have Rejected some of the narrations without evidence, but Ignorance. One might also add, that as of something that is not Repeated as much as many times in the Qruan, that does not make it of no Existence in what its there for, Would you count prayer to be of less importance? and yet we are not shown "How" to preform the payers in the Quran? If your not going to Comment or make a Critique on the Dialogue of Uli al amr, then you have failed to either read, or either reply, and one would think your intention is not to educate your beliefs, but rather to force others into misconceptions created from your own thoughts and not a Valid Argument.  

(wasalam)

 

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1.  Dear brother Did you no check the post of the Analysis? between page 32-34? I gave verses there, which till now no one has Rejected. it was a full debate, which I doubt you have read it all, 

 

2.  How Am I Hopeless?

 

3.  The verse (which I have proven is Linked to the Twelve Caliphs Which the prophet Told of, and I show Clear Narrations to prove so. I advise you to learn some of your Own sources and where they Originate from and Whom wrote them.

 

4.  Since you have Rejected some of the narrations without evidence, but Ignorance. One might also add, that as of something that is not Repeated as much as many times in the Qruan, that does not make it of no Existence in what its there for,

 

5.  Would you count prayer to be of less importance? and yet we are not shown "How" to preform the payers in the Quran?

 

6.  If your not going to Comment or make a Critique on the Dialogue of Uli al amr, then you have failed to either read, or either reply, and one would think your intention is not to educate your beliefs, but rather to force others into misconceptions created from your own thoughts and not a Valid Argument. 

 

 

1.  I read all the responses.  I am glad that no one rejected the verses because rejecting a verse of the Qur'an is putting one's self outside the fold of Islam, just as dangerous as trying to insert something (even a false presumption) in the Qur'an.

 

2.  Helpless not hopeless :)

 

3.  Let us assume that the verse is linked to Twelve Caliphs but there was no triumph when, for example, Imam Hussain [ra] was martyred.  And it is your own logic that triumph equals big mansions, castles, palaces and riches.  Anyone who knows religion will know that it is not so, even in the New Testament, the Kingdom that Jesus [asws] speaks of is not of this world (meaning it is not worldly, material kingdom).  So what was the triumph in Karbala, if any?

 

4.  Your statement made no sense to me but I understood the bit about rejecting narrations.  Rejecting narrations is not the same as analyzing them.  Furthermore, rejecting narrations is not the same as compiling other narrations that speak of the same matter before passing our judgment on the matter.

 

6.  The discussion of ulil amr is quite clear.  First, there is no mention that these ulil amr will be appointed by Allah [swt].  Second, these ulil amr will not be infallible because the verse says that in case of dispute, refer back to Allah [swt] and Rasulullah [saw] (and leaves out ulil amr).  If it had to do with infallible Imams [ra] who implement, and guide by, the Qur'an, the verse would have said that in case of dispute, refer to ulil amr.  Instead, it leaves out ulil amr (when disputes arise) and asks us to consult the Qur'an and Sunnah.

 

5.  Saved the best for last and I am so glad that you brought this up.  Now we learn how to pray from the Sunnah.  But is prayer fardh upon us?  Absolutely!  As such, do we find it in the Qur'an.  More times than you can find Imamat!  It is because that salah is mentioned in the Qur'an that we look into Hadith to learn how to pray.  Let me say that one more time.  We look into Sunnah to learn about prayer AFTER we see that it is mentioned in the Qur'an.  You are doing the exact opposite.

 

Here is how it should be:  we read about daily prayers in the Qur'an ---> so to learn how to pray, we consult the Sunnah ---> and in case more questions arise, we ask our Ulil Amr (scholars, et cetera).

 

Here is how our Shia brothers go about the alleged usool-e-deen known as "Imamat":  consult Ulil Amr (who plant the seed of Imamat in their heads) ---> comb through multiple narrations to find a few hadiths, in the Sunnah, that vaguely relate to the matter ---> twist verses of the Qur'an to justify this so-called usool.

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1.  I read all the responses.  I am glad that no one rejected the verses because rejecting a verse of the Qur'an is putting one's self outside the fold of Islam, just as dangerous as trying to insert something (even a false presumption) in the Qur'an.

 

 

When I said; "Rejecting" I meant the Idea or Concept that was proven through them and not the verse it self, If your Trying to act with "Mockery", I suggest you do it somewhere else. And Concerning that fact that you "Claim" they you have read the Full Dialogue on this topic, You have not Quoted or made a Critique to any of my statements made, so in your case, your  Assumption is not a Green Card of Evidence of what I have laid on the Spectrum.

 

 

Let us assume that the verse is linked to Twelve Caliphs but there was no triumph when, for example, Imam Hussain [ra] was martyred.  And it is your own logic that triumph equals big mansions, castles, palaces and riches.  Anyone who knows religion, even in the New Testament, the Kingdom that Jesus [asws] speaks of is not of this world (meaning it is not worldly, material kingdom).  So what was the triumph in Karbala, if any?

 

First of I did not make such a statement saying that Triumph equals to Castles or wealth, I Clearly said that such Material matters have no possible significance to the Concept of being a "Caliphate" meaning that being a Ruler of the Religion, means you are not to exceed in Wealth or Riches, same why how the prophet (s) started his Mission and how it ended, Did he ever sit on a throne? Certainly not. And so after the Oppression that was created by MUwaiyah and Yazid (L.a) who Caused the Society to fall into a state were Islam was at the verge of Ignorance, The Blood of Imam Hussain (a.s) was Sacrificed in order save the Religion and you cannot deny that Allah has Told the prophet (s) through Jebrail, that Imam Hussain (A.s) would be killed, and knowing in the Authentic narration that prophet Cried and Waled.    

 

 

 

4.  Your statement made no sense to me but I understood the bit about rejecting narrations.  Rejecting narrations is not the same as analyzing them.  Furthermore, rejecting narrations is not the same as compiling other narrations that speak of the same matter before passing our judgment on the matter.

 

I made a clear statement telling to you educate your self on your own books and their sources and thoe who have written them, since so far you failed to Object or Aid the Narrations I have provided. 

 

 

 

 The discussion of ulil amr is quite clear.  First, there is no mention that these ulil amr will be appointed by Allah [swt].(1)  Two, these ulil amr will not be infallible because the verse says that in case of dispute, refer back to Allah [swt] and Rasulullah [saw] (and leaves out ulil amr)(2).  If it had to do with infallible Imams [ra] who guide by the Qur'an, who implement the Qur'an, the verse would have said that in case of dispute, refer to ulil amr.  Instead, it leaves out ulil amr (when disputes arise) and asks us to consult the Qur'an and Sunnah.(3)

 

 

(1) False View. The following verse  Indicates that Allah is giving a Direct Order to Obey the Messenger of Allah and those who have Authority Among you, and such of those people, are those who are passed down by the prophet (S), as the so called System of "Electing" your own guide is a false view that does not Exits through out the history of the prophet (s), nor has the prophet (s) given such orders to do so. In this verse (4:59) Allah has made a Direct order to "Obey" and if such people have Authority among us, they cannot be of Evil, since Allah cannot appoint and Evil leader. For he is Just in his actions and Orders.

 

(2) False View. Clearly you have not read the Dialogue. (as expected). Such a verse it claims when "The people" differ, and thus, this does not make, nor condemn the Uli al Amr, In meaning that they are not Held accountable or anything wrong, but rather the differing has occurred with the people, and the Opinion of the people is not Infallible, nor of Absolute truth, and one can you an example such as; When the prophet (s) started giving his message, Some Blindly ignored, and some Faithfully accepted, therefore this cannot possible make the "message" or the "position" of the prophet Wrong, Since the Opinion of the people is not the Order of Allah to begin with.

   

(3) False View. When it the verse says: refer back to Allah and the messenger, that in when one wants to know the Truth of such or whom Such a Position is for, one can refer back to What Allah and the Messenger of Said. And we now we ask how to we refer to Allah? Clearly the prophet peace be upon him said: I have left two things in My Ummah, The book of Allah and My ahlulbayt (a.s), and thuse one who desire to refer to the prophet (s), Must refer back to His Ahlulbayt (a.s) and since they are the most Knowledgeable of the Book of Allah, they are the ones whom to be Trusted with the Authority of the Muslims. And Also The prophet (s) has made clear in more than just one Authentic Traditions that the book of Allah and His Ahlulvayt (a.s) are the Caliphs after him.

 

 

 

 

  Saved the best for last and I am so glad that you brought this up.  Now we learn how to pray from the Sunnah.  But is prayer fardh upon us?  Absolutely!  As such, do we find it in the Qur'an.  More times than you can find Imamat!  It is because that salah is mentioned in the Qur'an that we look into Hadith to learn how to pray.  Let me say that one more time.  We look into Sunnah to learn about prayer AFTER we see that it is mentioned in the Qur'an.  You are doing the exact opposite.

 

 

 

(1) I was referring to "how" preform the prayer, since the boo Of Allah, the Concept of Prayer is there as it is, but how many times for prayer and the title of each prayer does not all exist in the Book of Allah, thus its existence is not more than the other titles or issue raised in Islam, when coming into comparison.

 

 

  

 

 

Here is how it should be:  we read about daily prayers in the Qur'an ---> so to learn how to pray, we consult the Sunnah ---> and in case more questions arise, we ask our Ulil Amr (scholars, et cetera).

  

(1) Again False when we look at the topic of your "Wali", "caliphate", and "Wali al amr, or "Uli al amr" we find many Narrations on this issue which link us to Ahlulbayt (a.s), which should not me hard to Identify if ones simply reads.

(2) how do you Consult the Sunnah? Do you read? if you read about it, then the same with Uli al amr. 

______________________

 

 

 

Here is how our Shia brothers go about the alleged usool-e-deen known as "Imamat":  consult Ulil Amr (who plant the seed of Imamat in their heads) ---> comb through multiple narrations to find a few hadiths, in the Sunnah, that vaguely relate to the matter ---> twist verses of the Qur'an to justify this so-called usool.

 

 

(1) Please learn to talk with proper manners.

(2) If we have Twisted this so called Views, Why are you failing to object to the verses I have mentioned in the Reference I gave Given you.

(3) The Concept Of Wasi (SuccessorShip) Existed in many verses in the Quran, While your so called :"Election" has not Existence on the terms of Choosing the Guide of the Ummah, which Is Ironic to when understanding that it is Allah who Guides, therefore he chooses.

_______________________

(wasalam) 

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Let me tell you a story.  When I was in university, I took a class called "Cell Biology."  The professor had came from another university.  Later, we found out that she was fired from there because she had a slide on, actually an entire segment of her lecture was aimed at, "Intelligent Design" which basically hints at a Higher Being Who created life.  Guess what, she got fired from our college as well because she had the same few slides for us to study as well.

 

When I read your post, I remembered her class because she said (in order for us to save money) we did not have to buy the course textbook.  She had all of her lecture slides compiled and published as a book which was sold at the bookstore for one-third of the price of the course textbook.  But given how hard the subject was, we all ended up buying the course textbook because her slides did not explain the concepts in detail.

 

Comparing her slidebook to the course textbook, we found out that there were a few concepts that were not mentioned in her slidebook (which indicated that we did not need to study those concepts and we were not responsible for those concepts on the exams).  However, as it was true often, when we would not understand her slides (since they were written in bulletin points and incomplete sentences), we would consult the course textbook to clarify the concepts we were responsible for (the ones that would appear on the exams).

 

To connect my analogy to our discussion, the missing concept is Imamat.  The slidebook (may Allah [swt] forgive me for comparing His Book to an ordinary book but it is to make you see reason) is the Qur'an.  The course textbook is the Sunnah (hadiths).  Lastly, praying is such one concept that we are responsible for (hence, we look into the Sunnah).

 

If this does not make you see reason, then may Allah [swt] guide you and me.

 

Wa aakhiru dawana wa Alhamdulillahi rabbil aalameen!

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Ok, very interesting discussion going on here, both my scholar brothers are talking good stuff

I am sorry but I m jumping in the topic with both brother Muslim 720 and brother Islam history.

Can anyone tell me about imamat.

That what if some one goes against a imam or negates a imam. What does shariah law says on this. I just want to know the concept in few lines

JAZAK Allah KHER

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Let me tell you a story.  When I was in university, I took a class called "Cell Biology."  The professor had came from another university.  Later, we found out that she was fired from there because she had a slide on, actually an entire segment of her lecture was aimed at, "Intelligent Design" which basically hints at a Higher Being Who created life.  Guess what, she got fired from our college as well because she had the same few slides for us to study as well.

 

When I read your post, I remembered her class because she said (in order for us to save money) we did not have to buy the course textbook.  She had all of her lecture slides compiled and published as a book which was sold at the bookstore for one-third of the price of the course textbook.  But given how hard the subject was, we all ended up buying the course textbook because her slides did not explain the concepts in detail.

 

Comparing her slidebook to the course textbook, we found out that there were a few concepts that were not mentioned in her slidebook (which indicated that we did not need to study those concepts and we were not responsible for those concepts on the exams).  However, as it was true often, when we would not understand her slides (since they were written in bulletin points and incomplete sentences), we would consult the course textbook to clarify the concepts we were responsible for (the ones that would appear on the exams).

 

To connect my analogy to our discussion, the missing concept is Imamat.  The slidebook (may Allah [swt] forgive me for comparing His Book to an ordinary book but it is to make you see reason) is the Qur'an.  The course textbook is the Sunnah (hadiths).  Lastly, praying is such one concept that we are responsible for (hence, we look into the Sunnah).

 

If this does not make you see reason, then may Allah [swt] guide you and me.

 

Wa aakhiru dawana wa Alhamdulillahi rabbil aalameen!

 

 

(1) First of all my dear brother in your analogy here I must Disagree With you on, perhaps all that you have just said. In the Context of you wrote, you cannot compare a Subject Text book what ever sort or valuable in formation it possess of even that of which exceeds out intellect, to a Book that Contains Narrations for example about the prophet (s) and His ahlulbayt (a.s), as it is far more important in both its existence ( Of course if Such is Authentic), and far more important in Guidance, and so we come to understand that the Book of Allah it self cannot be Interpreted Alone by it self. No matter What level your terming the means of such a false comparison.

(2) Second of All my dear brother the Concept of Imamate Exists, whether you like you not, as I have given you the link to the post of which I posted on a Particular debate that was firing just recently, at which you seem to fail to object to. So now either you read and actually make some Progress of some sort, or I would be more than delighted to Post my Analysis here, since you are unable to click your finger two times on the Mouse or Screen pad on your PC.

______________________

(Wasalam)    

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Waleykum Salaam,

 

He left it for the Muslims to consult among themselves and chose their leader. 

SHIA ISLAM IN BIBLE

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shii-beliefs-bible-thomas-mcelwain

 

Thomas McElwain is an American professor of Philosophy. He is well-known for his conversion from Christianity to Shia Islam. He was in Ohio, USA.

Prof McElwain is fluent in many languages, including biblical Hebrew and Arabic.]

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1.  You are confusing consultant with being responsible for the outcome.  As the Caliph, Abu Bakr [ra] had that much authority to, at least, cast his vote in favor of another Sahabi [ra] and then consult other Sahaba [ra] to get their opinion.  

 

2.  Well, Sheikh Mufid [rah] - as I showed in the other topic - said that the Prophet [saw], after Ghadeer Khum, offered leadership to Abbas [ra].  So the onus of ignoring Ghadeer Khum is on your scholars and books :)

 

3.  In the nations prior to this ummah, we do not know the exact details of how successors were appointed but we know that Prophethood had not ended.  For example, Yusha ibn Nun [as] was a prophet who succeeded Musa [as].  And we know Who appointed Prophets [asws].  But the door to Prophethood was closed shut with the appointment of Rasulullah [saw].  Reality of it is that Imamat is a "divine appointment" which rivals prophethood but disguises itself as leadership.  It is not in the Qur'an yet it is presented to us as an usool of our deen.  Nothing substantiates Imamat and the verse about Ibrahim [asws] does more damage (to Imamat) than good.  Essentially, this is the core issue that Sunnis have with Shias. 

 

If you are still shaking your head saying "no" then show me the Imamat of the Prophet [saw].  It is alleged that the Imamat of Ibrahim [asws] is found in Surah Baqarah and the Imamat of Imam Ali [ra] was declared at Ghadeer Khum.  It is believed that Imamat is above Nabuwat then that makes Ali [ra] better than our Prophet [saw].  But our Shia brothers say that that is not true because the Prophet [saw] is an Imam and a prophet.

 

So, I ask, when and where was Rasulullah's [saw] Imamat announced?

 

If Imamat is better than being a prophet, why then do we not say, "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad imamullah" instead of "la illaha ilalah, Muhammad-ur Rasulullah?"  The latter shows that he was just a prophet [saw]; the former shows that he [saw] was an Imam and a prophet.

 

Lastly, if one has to be a prophet in order to be an Imam (as we read in the verse about Ibrahim [asws]), when and where was this exception made for Ali [ra] and his descendants (that they can be Imams without attaining prophethood)?

 

 

 

GHADEER MENTIONED IN BIBLE ALSO

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shii-beliefs-bible-thomas-mcelwain

 

Thomas McElwain is an American professor of Philosophy. He is well-known for his conversion from Christianity to Shia Islam. He was in Ohio, USA.

Prof McElwain is fluent in many languages, including biblical Hebrew and Arabic.]

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"O' Ali, you are to me like Harun was to Musa, except that there is not Prophet after and you are my khalifah after me" found in the Sunni book Al Sunnah, by Abu Bakr ibn Ahmed ibn Abi Aasim. Albani, arguably their most renowned scholar in hadith, graded it trustworthy, commenting 'it fits the criteria of Bukhari Muslim". 

 

 

 

 

 

Finished.

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