First Neo-Waqifi Apostate?

[Rasul]

Salam,

 

[Haydar Husayn]

The so-called neo-Waqifi movement seems to attract people with Christian backgrounds or those with an interest in Christianity. Some of their arguments (although not the main ones) are based on certain Biblical scriptures say, and how they fit in better with a Musawi Waqifi viewpoint than an Ithna Ashari one. For example, macisaac writes on his site:
 

 

In addition, we will attempt to draw parallels between the claims of the Waqifa and some of the early gnostic/occult Christian movements as well as explore the similitude of the figure of `Isa b. Maryum عليه السلام (Jesus, the son of Mary) and Imam Musa b. Ja`far al-Kazhim عليه السلام. Possible references to al-`Abd as-Salih عليه السلام (The Righteous Servant) in the Biblical tradition will also be examined. Although, bear in mind that such endeavors will only seek to reinforce the claims of the Waqifa and so they are not at all integral to its acceptance.

 

http://www.*******.org/articles/preliminaries

 

 

See also the site: http://www.tashayyu.com/ (not to be confused with macisaac's site), which I think is run by someone on ShiaChat. There we read:

 

 

This site is dedicated to researching the commonalities between early Christianity and early Imami Shiism with a particular concentration on the links between the concept of the Messiah and the concept of the Qa'im.  Please use the links above to navigate the various pages.  Included is a layman's tafsir (exegesis) of the Bible which, as of now, is very much a work in progress.

 

 

 

In light of all this, it wouldn't really surprise me to see converts in either direction between Christianity and Musawi Waqifism.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Haydar Husayn

[Ali Musaaa :)]

I can guarantee it is someone from this very site. God knows best what religion this individual adheres too.

[Jahangiram]

What a strange world we live in.

[Gypsy]

I think the only reason Waqifism exists nowadays is perhaps due to deep hatred towards the Iranian. Somehow, some folks are convinced that Imam al-Ridha is the 'Persian' candidate and that he lied to everyone and put himself to the place of Imamah.

Waqifism is a dead sect. They didn't die off because of Ithna Asharis tyranny. Waqism died off because people had enough of them especially when most of their outlandish claims didn't materialize.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Gypsy

[Qa'im]

I think I know who it is. Anyway, the `Abd as-Salih argument is awful, and if people want I can elaborate why.

[IbnSohan]

Just the natural course of deviant sects, not a surprise to be honest.

 

[Due to] arrogance in the land and plotting of evil; but the evil plot does not encompass except its own people. Then do they await except the way of the former peoples? But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.

[ajsmith]

I think I know who it is. Anyway, the `Abd as-Salih argument is awful, and if people want I can elaborate why.

 

"Although, bear in mind that such endeavors will only seek to reinforce the claims of the Waqifa and so they are not at all integral to its acceptance."

[Abdul Qaim]

There must only be a handful of Neo-Waqifa in existence, so I'd be fascinated to know who the person in question is.

 

Edit: It appears as if the person involved has changed their status as : RASUL GO AWAY

Their location is now "Shiachat", and the sig reads, "IGNORE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID ON THIS FORUM" ...

I think I know who it is. 

 

I think I may know as well,..

Edited November 4, 2013 by Abdul Qaim

[Ali Musaaa :)]

^... I think we all do, it's rather evident.

[Al-Hussayni]

Ya Allah, some lost souls out there. May Allah guide us all.

[The Green Knight]

Since there was only one Neo Waqifi female ever I think I also know who it is. The Sherlock Holmes in me found the identical missing left temporal lobe of the brain and hence temper problems in both of them. This sister should be subjected to SPECT scan and treated and prayed for.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Darth Vader

[Koshaan]

I think the only reason Waqifism exists nowadays is perhaps due to deep hatred towards the Iranian. Somehow, some folks are convinced that Imam al-Ridha is the 'Persian' candidate and that he lied to everyone and put himself to the place of Imamah.

Waqifism is a dead sect. They didn't die off because of Ithna Asharis tyranny. Waqism died off because people had enough of them especially when most of their outlandish claims didn't materialize.

I'm surprised at your first sentence there. For one, it's just illogical, as in doesn't make sense. And second, there are people who've embraced this faith- its truth or falsehood not something I'm commenting in right now- after their own research of ahadith etc, and not after being spurred by some anti-Iranian bias.

I might raise eyebrows, or worse, for saying this, but I respect some of the Waqifis out there for the depth of their knowledge, their willingness to challenge their own beliefs, and go against the flow. They may be wrong, but they've put in a heck lot more effort towards their deen than at least I have. Honestly, aren't a lot of us twelvers, simply because that's what we've been taught by our parents etc? If anyone were to ask us for concrete reasons for our beliefs that don't rest on 'because I-was-told-so', we wouldn't have much to say. Please note, this is not a diatribe against people in general here. It's just a reminder that we are not all perfect believers either, and sure as heck need guidance too.

[The Green Knight]

I agree with the above. I, similarly, must admit that I have a tad bit of a fondness for Satan. As you know, he is more knowledgeable than anyone among us at this time. His eons worth of knowledge over history, the Divine and how things work up there, you know, the thought of it is something I find so exhilirating and its always filling my mind with so many "what-ifs" and other interesting questions. He's so ancient, so very knowledgeable, and it surprises me greatly how and why and what exactly went wrong and what was the issue, the issue which is worth investigating, worth contemplating deeply for years, worth meditating upon because I find it a tad unbelievable how such a great, knowledgeable and most ancient entity could err. May be its not his hatred of man but something else. How can such a super ancient, super obedient, and simply super being trip over as small a thing as jealousy or allegedly, the slight unfairness of fate? Its illogical.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Darth Vader

[monad]

 

May be its not his hatred of man but something else. How can such a super ancient, super obedient, and simply super being trip over as small a thing as jealousy or allegedly, the slight unfairness of fate? Its illogical.

Well, he failed because he did not bow down to authority. Now we can see this  same correlation between generation of laws, those with authority, punishing those who do not follow their rule. Implying, "being" who decide to go outside the rule of "law" are no different then the devil. Unless those very same beings cleverly rise to the position of authority and change the rules. Deceptive mind game.

[Rohani]

We need to have very well done articles presenting our arguments against the waqifi

[Muhammed Ali]

Why is ImAli banned? For asking people to kiss someone's derriere?

 

For having a very long list of warnings. This current one wasn't just given for what you have described, but for the insinuations that were made by stating that he is married.

[rotten_coconut]

I think I know who it is. Anyway, the `Abd as-Salih argument is awful, and if people want I can elaborate why.

Bro Qa'im,

I really wish you continue your refutation series though.

It may help people to get to know the Twelver side for some unanswered questions after reading the Waqifi arguments

[The Green Knight]

It'll only create a useless strawman by further attempting to refute that rubbish. Their "arguments", or should I say his arguments, since now how many are left of them after that one in the original post lost to YMCA. Anyway, his ramblings should not be dignified by any further refutations unless you wish to allocate any importance to his little stunt. The productivity of his endeavor is obvious for all here. Twelver to Neo-Waqifi to Catholic. The several causes of it including Rijalism, are also quite obvious to us.

 

There are so many things we all should do instead of wasting time on Munazra with even the real sects or religions. If someone along the way converts to Hinduism at least I wouldn't be bothered. It is God who both guides and misguides but it is the individual's works that can deserve one or the other. And that is why we're a minority among mankind. The Prophet, Imams and their representatives could not change that other than what was God's will so how can we.

[Muhammed Ali]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. 

 

Many of the offending posts have been hidden and I have only partially quoted yours, so it doesn't give away too much information about what was said.

[Mu3lam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

I have spoken to the individual that posted this.  He claims to have been in taqiyyah while on there and was a Waqifi the whole time; not a Christian.  Additionally he now claims to have reverted back to ithna-asheriyyah Shi'ism.  Only Allah (swt) knows what his true beliefs are, but if he is telling the truth, we must be careful to not backbite insha'Allah.

 

Please lock this thread before it goes back to petty insults again.

 

Jazak'Allah Khair

 

(wasalam)

[IbnSohan]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I have spoken to the individual that posted this. He claims to have been in taqiyyah while on there and was a Waqifi the whole time; not a Christian. Additionally he now claims to have reverted back to ithna-asheriyyah Shi'ism. Only Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì knows what his true beliefs are, but if he is telling the truth, we must be careful to not backbite insha'Allah.

Please lock this thread before it goes back to petty insults again.

Jazak'Allah Khair

(wasalam)

I have no business with this group but I find this to be very offending, the act of attributing a shameful deceptive act to Shia Islam. Taqiyyah is when you are in a Sunni mosque and dose not want to cause friction, rather just to pray and read or listen to Quran. Taqyyiah is when you are in a society where polygamy is illegal, when being anti gay is immoral. Taqqyiah is not to claim to be a non Muslim for non religion, work, health preserving causes ( keeping good ties with other Muslim spectrum as much as one can is part of a unity that imam told us to practice) .

[Koshaan]

Can we say so without knowing for sure what this man's motive for practising taqayya was?

[Mu3lam]

Can we say so without knowing for sure what this man's motive for practising taqayya was?

His motive was, in my opinion, invalid.  His goal was to introduce Islamic principles subliminally to the Christians.  For example, he would go on there and praise Imam Ali (as) while cursing his enemies and exposing their evil deeds against humanity.  In my opinion, he should have been straightforward about his motives.  It is not right to trick somebody into following a religion; rather such a person would be required to make their own mind up based on facts, not deception.  This brother is aware of his mistakes and insha'Allah he will not repeat them.

[guest102317]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Quote

He claims to have been in taqiyyah while on there and was a Waqifi the whole time; not a Christian. Additionally he now claims to have reverted back to ithna-asheriyyah Shi'ism.

Someone who is more mouth than mind, claims to be wherever the winds of doubt takes him. He leaves Tashayyu` and enters a group of doubters. He seemingly leaves them and becomes a cross-worshiper. He now leaves and announces himself back in the fold of Tashayyu`. Whether he is playing games with God or with the believers, I would have no problem in seeing such a chameleon, who is so unserious about faith, and who enters and leaves like a ghost without a qualm, duly condemned.

The dīn is not a plaything. al-Husayn [as] gave up his friends, family and self to the sword for the dīn, and his womenfolk to the shackles for the dīn.

(Wasalam)

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Quote

(bismillah)

(salam)

Someone who is more mouth than mind, claims to be wherever the winds of doubt takes him. He leaves Tashayyu` and enters a group of doubters. He seemingly leaves them and becomes a cross-worshiper. He now leaves and announces himself back in the fold of Tashayyu`. Whether he is playing games with God or with the believers, I would have no problem in seeing such a chameleon, who is so unserious about faith, and who enters and leaves like a ghost without a qualm, duly condemned.

The dīn is not a plaything. al-Husayn [as] gave up his friends, family and self to the sword for the dīn, and his womenfolk to the shackles for the dīn.

(Wasalam)

Your post reminded me of the following passage from al-Baqara:

Some people say, ‘We believe in God and the Last Day,’ when really they do not believe. They seek to deceive God and the believers but they only deceive themselves, though they do not realize it. There is a disease in their hearts, to which God has added more: agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying. [2:8-10]

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Lol. "Waqifa."

That misguided sect died and all its Major scholars embraced Twelver Imami Tashayyu`

This neo-"Waqifi(a)" just have problems with authority (you know, real scholars) and want to be able to claim this or that without feeling that constrain of his ideas contradicting, about, 1200 years of tradition (which are usually based on his one delusions (wahm) and desires (hawaa)).

في أمان الله

[Jahangiram]

Why on earth would you do taqiyyah on a Christian forum? :huh: Its not like someone's gonna knock on your door and beat you to a pulp for being a waqifi. This guy sounds more like an insecure sunni who's trying to mock the extended use of taqiyyah in shi'ism, pehh sounds more like a cheap shot at tashayyu than an explanation.

[The Green Knight]

On 11/7/2013 at 6:56 AM, Dar said:

(bismillah)

Lol. "Waqifa."

That misguided sect died and all its Major scholars embraced Twelver Imami Tashayyu`

This neo-"Waqifi(a)" just have problems with authority (you know, real scholars) and want to be able to claim this or that without feeling that constrain of his ideas contradicting, about, 1200 years of tradition (which are usually based on his one delusions (wahm) and desires (hawaa)).

في أمان الله

Also problems with the blessed 8th Imam Al-Raza (عليه السلام) (for taking up residence in lands of Iran). So both a murtad and nasibi. But oh I just can't but woo for him and post about each time he pulls a new rabbit out of his hat. But hey lets not say those things. May be he repented (or might repent in future). May be he did it all for taqiyyah. May be he received death threats. We'll never know. So lets let it slide and exercise akhlaq, because only jihadis exercise bad akhaq by rudely slaughtering children. Thats not our way.

Wallahu Aalim .~

[Qa'im]

(bismillah)

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلاَ لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلاً

 

"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them, nor guide them ,nor guide them on the way." (4:137)

 

Take your religion seriously, people...

[Abdul Qaim]

(bismillah)

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ آمَنُواْ ثُمَّ كَفَرُواْ ثُمَّ ازْدَادُواْ كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلاَ لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلاً

 

"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them, nor guide them ,nor guide them on the way." (4:137)

 

Take your religion seriously, people...

 

The quasi-hysterical bleating from some of the folk here is what I don't take seriously.

 

Some people here need to get a grip.We're not talking about someone becoming a Hindu, btw. A few people - at most - have deviated from what most of us here believe to be the norm. I can't see a wave of mass conversions to Waqifism anytime soon. I'm surprised that anyone still bothers to even discuss the matter.

[Koshaan]

Qaim, may I, in a good way say- if taking our religion seriously means recognizing what we believe to be wrong, and even calling it so openly, in a dignified way, and doing our best to uphold the truth, while remembering that we are all human, and capable of erring- definitely. If, however, it entails taking cheap shots at others, and gloating over their errors, ( Im not implying that you do so) I think I'll pass

[Abdul Qaim]

On 11/8/2013 at 6:27 AM, akamp said:

Why are you so sensitive.

.......

Waqifis should have held a public discussion, may be in the thinkers discourse at shiachat. Without it, they cannot hope to come out as credible.

I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm sensitive. Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's rear end if 3 or 4 people try to resurrect an extinct Shi'i sect. I don't envisage that the ilhaad is going to spread like a zombie virus and infect the faithful in the foreseeable future. What I find amusing is the hysteria that this insignificant occurrence has engendered amongst many users here, hence the facetious reply...

[guest102317]

(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

Your sarcasm was noted, Abdul Qaim. On a different day, I might have laughed. But few days from ʿāshūrā, I'm not in the mood of laughing.

 

(Wasalam)

[Qa'im]

 

The quasi-hysterical bleating from some of the folk here is what I don't take seriously.

 

Some people here need to get a grip.We're not talking about someone becoming a Hindu, btw. A few people - at most - have deviated from what most of us here believe to be the norm. I can't see a wave of mass conversions to Waqifism anytime soon. I'm surprised that anyone still bothers to even discuss the matter.

 

 

I was not referring to those who go to Waqifism. Allah looks at the niyya of all people, and I can understand that some are legitimately confused. I was referring to those who seem to follow a new religion or sect every few weeks. The truth is not so vague where one can go from Imamism to Waqifism to Christianity back to Imamism in a short period of time. When the Prophet (pbuh) was in Medina, there were Jews who would become Muslims for a period, and then go back to Judaism for a period, and this verse guarantees that such people who take their religion lightly will not be guided, nor will they be forgiven, until they change their ways.