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Shia Imams Divinity

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Hi Shias,

 

I am not Shia nor muslim, I am actually a university student in Scotland studying Arabic and I'm doing  a bit of research into the Shia (which I find interesting and specifically the marterydom of husayn pbuh to be very moving).

 

One thing I am trying to understand is what exactly the view is of the Shia (specifically Twelvers) regards the divinity of your imams and their connection with Allah.  I understand you believe that the Imams are decided by Allah and have an element of divinity, how does this tie in with Muhammed (peace be upon him) being the last prophet as Shia also believe.  Basically what is the status of the imam - they are not a prophet, but they are not mere mortal men like the Sunni Caliphs like Umar or Uthman?

 

Thankyou

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I don't know how much this will help. And I can't (fully) interpret this narration myself either.

 

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن إسماعيل بن مرار قال: كتب الحسن بن العباس المعروفي إلى الرضا عليه السلام: جعلت فداك أخبرني ما الفرق بين الرسول والنبي والامام؟ قال: فكتب أو قال: الفرق بين الرسول والنبي والامام أن الرسول الذي ينزل عليه جبرئيل فيراه ويسمع كلامه وينزل عليه الوحي وربما رأى في منامه نحو رؤيا إبراهيم عليه السلام، والنبي ربما سمع الكلام وربما رأى الشخص ولم يسمع والامام هو الذي يسمع الكلام ولا يرى الشخص

 

`Ali ibn Ibraheem has narrated from his father from Isma'il ibn Marrar who has said the following: Once al-Hassan ibn al-`Abbas al-Ma`roofi wrote to Imam al-Rida [peace be upon him/عليه السلام]: 'May Allah keep my soul in service for your cause, explain to me the difference between the Messengers, Prophets, and the Imams.' The Imam عليه السلام replied, 'The difference between the Messengers, the Prophets, and the Imams is that a Messenger is one to whom Jibra'il (Angel Gabriel) comes to. He sees Jibra'il and hears his speech and Jibra'il brings him (devine) revelation and sometimes he may see in his dream something like the dream of Abraham (peace be upon him). A Prophet is one who may hear the speech of an angel and may see it, but may not hear him (?). The Imam is the one who hears the speech but does not see the angel.

 

Kitab al-Kafi V1: Chapter on the Difference Among the Messenger, the Prophets, and al-Muhaddath, hadith 2.

 

Can somebody please explain to me what Imam Ridha (a) means when he says, 'A Prophet is one who may hear the speech of an angel and may see it, but may not hear him.

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I think much confusion is made when people throw around the word 'devine'. When you say something is devine youre giving it attributes of Allah or equating it with Allah (like Christians did with Isa(as)). There is a difference between saying that a person enjoys Allah's protection and certain blessings (like the level of consciousness that Prophets and Imams have) and saying that someone *is* devine - this gives people a lot of ammunition when they want to spread falsehood.

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Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.H.), His (A.S.) daughter Hazrat Fatima (A.S.) and the 12 Imams (A.S.) are the 14 Infallibles (A.S.). They (A.S.) were created before everything else in the universe and Their (A.S.) status is higher than all other Prophets (A.S.). Prophets (A.S.) don't commit sin but they can sometimes make mistakes whereas 14 Infallibles (A.S.) can never make a mistake. They (A.S.) have power over everything in the universe including all the people because everything was created before Them (A.S.). 

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I don't understand this.

So apparently Muslims claim that Mohammed was a prophet as prophesied in the bible... what about these 12 semi-divine Imams?

Are they prophesied?

Also I don't remember Mohammed saying anything about 12 divine Imams that will follow after him... I don't see their purpose either... are they like prophets? What is their purpose

Edited by SpaceMM-

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I don't understand this.

So apparently Muslims claim that Mohammed was a prophet as prophesied in the bible... what about these 12 semi-divine Imams?

Are they prophesied?

Also I don't remember Mohammed saying anything about 12 divine Imams that will follow after him... I don't see their purpose either... are they like prophets? What is their purpose

They do not come with a new message or religion because they are the guardians of the Holy Religion of Islam. We regard Islam as a complete religion and there is no necessity to come with a new religion. So the Imams are the protectors of the Islam.

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I don't understand this.

So apparently Muslims claim that Mohammed was a prophet as prophesied in the bible... what about these 12 semi-divine Imams?

Are they prophesied?

Also I don't remember Mohammed saying anything about 12 divine Imams that will follow after him... I don't see their purpose either... are they like prophets? What is their purpose

The 14 Infallibles (A.S.) are the proof of Allah on this earth. This world can never be without proof of Allah. Their (A.S.) purpose is to guide people and lead them. Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) left 2 things for guidance of people. One was Quran and the other was 12 Imams (A.S.) who interpret Quran and Allah's laws for people. 

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I don't understand this.

So apparently Muslims claim that Mohammed was a prophet as prophesied in the bible... what about these 12 semi-divine Imams?

Are they prophesied?

Also I don't remember Mohammed saying anything about 12 divine Imams that will follow after him... I don't see their purpose either... are they like prophets? What is their purpose

 

It is important to try and explain this to you an easy way for you to understand. To do this its probably easier to explain via your own personal experiences and beliefs. 

Proofs can be submitted purely from a theological/philosophical basis or from an Islamic view . What would you prefer

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The 14 Infallibles (A.S.) are the proof of Allah on this earth. This world can never be without proof of Allah. Their (A.S.) purpose is to guide people and lead them. Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) left 2 things for guidance of people. One was Quran and the other was 12 Imams (A.S.) who interpret Quran and Allah's laws for people.

Ah right so they are the ones that interpret the law.. Ok. Thanks

You said 14 infallibles.. don't you mean 12? If so who where the 2 others?

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Ah right so they are the ones that interpret the law.. Ok. Thanks

You said 14 infallibles.. don't you mean 12? If so who where the 2 others?

 

Imāmī Shī'ī Muslims (Twelvers) believe that after the Prophet there were 12 Imams who were appointed by God to guide the Umma in the absence of the Prophet . These imams inherit the Messengers knowledge and function as political, religious and spiritual leader of the Islamic Umma. These twelve are Mas'um (Infallible). They are essentially protected by God and due to their high level of Taqwa (awareness of God) they refrain from committing acts of disobedience. Additional, the Prophet and his daughter, Fatima al-Zahrah, [sa] are mas'um. Thus there are a total of 14 Infallible's. Twelve of whom are Imams. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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The Sunni logic is so wrong. They say that since we give "divine" attributes to our imams, we are a mushrik (polytheist), because the "divine" attributes only belongs to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Well, in that case sunnis are also mushrik because they give divinity to the angles, as they also believe that angles are sinless and are void of any mistake and error, just like Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì is. 

 

And also because of their dumb logic, they also have to make the prophet of Islam, fallible. And thus accuse him of turning away from a blind man, etc. etc. 

Edited by SlaveOfAllah14

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Shia's believe there has to be a divinely appointed representative on Earth to guide/lead yet he is unavailable to guide/lead.

 

Try reconciling that contradictory belief.

 

---

 

And because this divinely appointed representative is unavailable, they have to settle for fallibles as guides/leaders, now that's called irony considering their take on the Sunni's system.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Shia's believe there has to be a divinely appointed representative on Earth to guide/lead yet he is unavailable to guide/lead.

 

Try reconciling that contradictory belief.

 

---

 

And because this divinely appointed representative is unavailable, they have to settle for fallibles as guides/leaders, now that's called irony considering their take on the Sunni's system.

Who says He (A.S.) is unavailable to guide/lead. I heard an incident about one Imam (A.S.) in a majlis. He (A.S.) was present in masjid with one of His(A.S.) companions and He (A.S.) was asked about Imam Mehdi (A.S.). He (A.S.) told His (A.S.) companion to go ask other people present in the masjid if they can see the Imam (A.S.). When the companion went and ask those people, they said no, Imam (A.S.) is not present here. The companion kept insisting and those people became angry at him that Imam(A.S.) is not here, we don't see Him (A.S.). Then Abu Baseer came who was a blind companion. Imam (A.S.) told that companion to go and ask Abu Baseer if he could see Imam (A.S.). When the companion asked Abu Baseer, he said, "Of course, I can see the Imam(A.S.) standing in the middle of the masjid". Imam (A.S.) is present among people, guiding them. It's just that not everyone can see Him (A.S.).

Shias follow the fallible guides, but once the Imam (A.S.) comes, we will only follow Him (A.S.) and He (A.S.) will be the only leader. 

Edited by Mokhtar2012

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One thing I am trying to understand is what exactly the view is of the Shia (specifically Twelvers) regards the divinity of your imams and their connection with Allah.

 

No one is divine.

 

They are all fully human.

 

Their connection with God lies in the fact that in our belief, they are among the best of God's creation.

 

The words 'prophet', 'imam, 'messenger, do not determine a hierarchy.

 

Prophets, messengers and Imams are all the best of men.

 

That august list also includes women, such as the mother of Jesus and the first wife and daughter of Prophet Muhammad. 

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Hi Shias,

 

I am not Shia nor muslim, I am actually a university student in Scotland studying Arabic and I'm doing  a bit of research into the Shia (which I find interesting and specifically the marterydom of husayn pbuh to be very moving).

 

One thing I am trying to understand is what exactly the view is of the Shia (specifically Twelvers) regards the divinity of your imams and their connection with Allah.  I understand you believe that the Imams are decided by Allah and have an element of divinity, how does this tie in with Muhammed (peace be upon him) being the last prophet as Shia also believe.  Basically what is the status of the imam - they are not a prophet, but they are not mere mortal men like the Sunni Caliphs like Umar or Uthman?

 

Thankyou

 

The Imams are appointed by Allah to lead and guide after the Prophet. We believe no other prophet or imam is at the level of Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and he is the last of the prophet. Our last prophet pointed towards the leadership of the Imams who were to guide mankind after him. They protected the teachings of the Prophet. Regarding the status of Imams, it is very high.The imams are infalliable meaning they are innocent and have not commited any sin, they exceed others in knowledge, piety, courage, intelligence, bravery etc. They do not fear anyone but God.They know the unseen to the extent Allah has allowed.

Edited by race

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Shia's believe there has to be a divinely appointed representative on Earth to guide/lead yet he is unavailable to guide/lead.

 

Try reconciling that contradictory belief.

 

Your problem lies in the rejection of the literature that attests to both notions. You're right, it does appear to contradict the purpose of an Imam but our texts affirm both a ghayba (occultation) and an appointed representative. 

 

We don't just reject Ahaddith purely on rational grounds. There are a plethora of narrations which attest to the notion of Occultation. Arguing against the Ghayba on purely rational grounds does not necessarily invalidate something that is textually evident and explicit in the Hadith literature. Of course, this is from our perspective as believers in the texts themselves. An atheist or non-Muslim could reject anything he really wants. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

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Hi Shias,

 

I am not Shia nor muslim, I am actually a university student in Scotland studying Arabic and I'm doing  a bit of research into the Shia (which I find interesting and specifically the marterydom of husayn pbuh to be very moving).

 

One thing I am trying to understand is what exactly the view is of the Shia (specifically Twelvers) regards the divinity of your imams and their connection with Allah.  I understand you believe that the Imams are decided by Allah and have an element of divinity, how does this tie in with Muhammed (peace be upon him) being the last prophet as Shia also believe.  Basically what is the status of the imam - they are not a prophet, but they are not mere mortal men like the Sunni Caliphs like Umar or Uthman?

 

Thankyou

Hello there,

Before we describe our Imams, we may as well describe our God

"The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and whoever recognises His like regards Him two; and whoever regards Him as two recognises parts for Him; and whoever recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him pointed at Him; and whoever pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said: ‘In what is He?’, held that He is contained; and whoever said: ‘On what is He?’, held He is not on something else"

In brief "Nothing like Him"

Our Imams with our prophet are His beloved servants and creatures, they are proud to call themselves servants. Several servants of Allah were given titles or kingdoms or knowledge or  performed miracles. Those beloved creature were closely taken care off by God, supported and blessed.

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This is a pretty loaded topic esp the way ithave evolved over time

 if you are interested try Shia Islam by Heinz Halm as an introduction or if u want from 12ers side "SHia by Syed Muhammad Hussain Tabatabai " which is online in English

Edited by Panzerwaffe

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Your problem lies in the rejection of the literature that attests to both notions. You're right, it does appear to contradict the purpose of an Imam but our texts affirm both a ghayba (occultation) and an appointed representative. 

 

We don't just reject Ahaddith purely on rational grounds. There are a plethora of narrations which attest to the notion of Occultation. Arguing against the Ghayba on purely rational grounds does not necessarily invalidate something that is textually evident and explicit in the Hadith literature. Of course, this is from our perspective as believers in the texts themselves. An atheist or non-Muslim could reject anything he really wants. 

 

You cannot reconcile two notions that are polar opposites. 

 

1) Divine Imam will lead

2) Divine Imam unavailable to lead

 

Just blindly accepting fallible hadiths regardless if they contradict each other or not isn't a strong counter, rather goes against the argument itself and exposes the inconsistencies of this concept - goes against the intellectual analysis of religion. On top of that Imamat hasn't been implicitly defined in the Quran. 

 

Regardless, you cannot blame those who reject this concept, they have more than enough solid evidence to back their disapproval. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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You cannot reconcile two notions that are polar opposites. 

 

1) Divine Imam will lead

2) Divine Imam unavailable to lead

 

Just blindly accepting fallible hadiths regardless if they contradict each other or not isn't a strong counter, rather goes against the argument itself and exposes the inconsistencies of this concept - goes against the intellectual analysis of religion. On top of that Imamat hasn't been implicitly defined in the Quran. 

 

Regardless, you cannot blame those who reject this concept, they have more than enough solid evidence to back their disapproval. 

 

The Imam will lead. Do you understand basic English as past present and future. Further on, the Imam guides the individual and it is possible for him to guide even when he is hidden. His zuhoor will happen when Allah wishes. Thus, there is no contradiction in our views. The problem is that you are not able to understand it. Please either increase your level of understanding and knowledge or stay silent on issues you cannot counter and argue against. Do you not believe Satan who misguides. Is Satan unavailable or available. If Satan can misguide while being hidden, what makes you think the Imam cant guide while hidden.

Edited by race

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If Satan can misguide while being hidden, what makes you think the Imam cant guide while hidden.

 

Examples will get you nowhere, a horrible habit by many religious folks, especially on this site. The concept of Satan is totally different than Imamat.

 

Read the texts defining the concept of Imamat. 

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You cannot reconcile two notions that are polar opposites. 

 

1) Divine Imam will lead

2) Divine Imam unavailable to lead

 

Just blindly accepting fallible hadiths regardless if they contradict each other or not isn't a strong counter, rather goes against the argument itself and exposes the inconsistencies of this concept - goes against the intellectual analysis of religion. On top of that Imamat hasn't been implicitly defined in the Quran. 

 

Regardless, you cannot blame those who reject this concept, they have more than enough solid evidence to back their disapproval. 

 

 

Your argument is flawed and can be demonstrated by using the similar logic you're using.

 

1- The sharia is a complete way of life. (true statement)

2- The sharia is currently not established/available.

 

Allah 3za wa jal has appointed the Imams (as) as guides and leaders for Islam, it is us humans who have not used these tools. The ghayba is contingent upon humanity and their behavior and it is humans who have caused ghayba, just because humanity as a whole did not accept the imams (as)  does not mean they are were not appointed.

You said that Imamah is not established in the Qur'an, you are wrong.....

 

The Qur'an clearly states Imamah....

 

Even sunnis have accepted Imamah as an intrinsic part of establishing the sharia, what they differ on is who appoints them and who is appointed.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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Examples will get you nowhere, a horrible habit by many religious folks, especially on this site. The concept of Satan is totally different than Imamat.

 

Read the texts defining the concept of Imamat. 

 

It does not matter whether the concept is different or not. That is not what we are arguing. What you said which led me to reply did not make any sense. Now since you cannot argue against what I posted, you turned against someone who gives examples to explain the concept better. It is you who wont get anywhere without examples. It is clear whatever concept you can't handle, or you cant argue against, or don't understand, you come up with baseless excuses and arguments which are highly unintelligent. Quran and hadith are filled with examples. In fact you do not even require an example to understand that the Imam can still guide while being hidden. Allah has given him that power. Thus, your previous post does not make any sense

 

This is your previous post:

 

Shia's believe there has to be a divinely appointed representative on Earth to guide/lead yet he is unavailable to guide/lead.

 

Again I will mention that the Imam does not have to be seen in order to guide others. If you cannot understand this simple concept, let me give you more examples. I however do not need an example to believe in this and hope you don't as well.

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Your argument is flawed and can be demonstrated by using the similar logic you're using.

 

1- The sharia is a complete way of life. (true statement)

2- The sharia is currently not established/available.

 

Your logic needs a little tweek.

 

1- The sharia is a complete way of life. (true statement)

2- The sharia is currently not absolute.

 

To say otherwise contradicts reality and the variances of opinions by Marjas. 

 

Anyways, you are diverting the topic at hand via examples. 

 

Allah 3za wa jal has appointed the Imams  (as) as guides and leaders for Islam, it is us humans who have not used these tools. The ghayba is contingent upon humanity and their behavior and it is humans who have caused ghayba, just because humanity as a whole did not accept the imams  (as)  does not mean they are were not appointed.

You said that Imamah is not established in the Qur'an, you are wrong.....

 

The Qur'an clearly states Imamah....

 

Even sunnis have accepted Imamah as an intrinsic part of establishing the sharia, what they differ on is who appoints them and who is appointed.

 

Whether humanity accepted or rejected is not the point of this thread. The definition and objective of Imamat contradicts the occultation argument. There is no need to complicate matters, there is no need to come up with examples, the concepts clear definition is that Allah provided divinely appointed Imams after the Prophet to lead/guide, but there is no Imam available to lead/guide. This is basic logic 101. 

 

This cannot be reconciled whatsoever. On top of that, the 12 Imams themselves never declared to humanity that they were appointed by Allah (again, there are threads on this already).

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235016547-12-imams-declaring-their-divine-appointment/?hl=%20imam

 

And the concept of 12 divinely appointed Imams after the Prophet is not in the Quran. What is mentioned in the Quran is irrelevant to that concept and there are tons of threads about that issue (many which I've been part of). 

 

It does not matter whether the concept is different or not. 

 

Errr, yes it does. You cannot use examples of concepts that are different. 

 

As a matter of fact, there is no need for examples. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Errr, yes it does. You cannot use examples of concepts that are different. 

 

As a matter of fact, there is no need for examples. 

 

Again you are unable to reply to the arguments I posted. You have nothing to argue. Plus I stated what I had to state without using examples and you couldn't bring a better argument. In fact you couldn't bring any argument, and I can also use examples using concepts which are similar but there is no need to. First of all reject and point the flaw in what I have stated without the use of examples in my previous post. Unless you don't counter those points of mine, I don't need to bring examples of similar concepts in order to counter you. But the day you are able to counter them, then I will counter you using examples of similar concepts. But your points and arguments are so weak, that I don't need to explain using examples.

Edited by race

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Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz, on 28 Jan 2014 - 2:02 PM, said:
The argument you used is 
 
1- The Imams are meant to lead.
2- The imams leadership is not available.
3- Imamah is false.
 
You based your rejection of the first point on number 2 which is a logical fallacy because statement number 2 does not necessitate statement number 1 being false.
 
We can demonstrate it by using your exact same logic with another aspect of islam.
 
1- The sharia is meant to be a governing body established for mankind.
2- The sharia is not currently being a governing body for mankind
3- The sharia is false.
 
^ This is a false syllogism.
 
You have no basis here.
 
Again, the above is incorrect. You are erroneously trying to equate Imamat reasoning with another example. 
 
1- The sharia is meant to be a governing body established for mankind.
2- The sharia is not currently being governed by a divine Imam/Leader
3- Hence the sharia is not absolute.
 
Hence the current sharia is governed by fallibles.
Hence the current Imams/Leaders are fallibles.
 
Therefore a divine absolute sharia doesn't exist.
Therefore a divine Imam as a leader/guide doesn't exist.
 

Your argument is weak and it is not convincing. You are using two words and making two claims and mixing them together and forming an argument in your mind that is making you believe what you're typing on your keyboard right now. We are speaking about two issues.

1- The definition of Imamate.
2- The functionality or objective of imamate.
 
The definition of Imamah is simply leadership over mankind.
 
The functionality of imamah is to guide them in religious matters (including political).
 
These are two different subjects.
 
The functionality it does not change the definition. The definition will always remain the same, concepts are concepts, they are not changed. I will demonstrate how and why you are using weak argumentation.
 
The response to you is, there is an imamah and leadership of the ummah even if the leader is not currently present.

 

The definition defines the functionality/objective from a Shia perspective. :wacko: There is no point you are making at all by separating the position with the person who should be occupying it. We are specifically talking about a concept of Shia 12 divine Imams. You are trying to combine the 12er concept of Imamat into the general term for Imamat.
 
The definition/functionality/objective of 12 Imams, from a Shia perspective, is to lead/guide humanity. 
If there is no divine Imam to lead/guide, then the objective hasn't been met.
 
 
Please read carefully.
 
If someone is appointed as your president however he is missing for 20 years yet you do not remove him from office, is he still your president? Of course he is, you have not removed him from office. The question should be asked, is there is a "presidency". The answer is yes. Presidency means that there is a president over the masses. Then the question is asked "is the functionality of this presidency present", you would say "no". However this does not mean there is not a presidency, because there is still a president over you fulfilling the intrinsic meaning of "presidency". 
 
Likewise we have an Imam over us, he is our leader. Just because he is in ghayba this does not change his status.
 
Since you said you know logic 101 then I'm sure you'll understand what I'm saying  ;)
 
Oh great, another example :wacko: And a very weak one.
 
If there is a president missing for 20 years then that person is no longer a president, someone else will take his place to lead. That's why it's wajib to do taqleed to a marja, hence your example contradicts even Shia reality, hence the Presidents right now are fallibles. 
 

Your claim that there are no hadith of there being an Imam appointed by designation from Allah is laughable at best, there are entire books of ahadeeth just on this subject. I randomly went into a book on this subject and randomly chose a hadith, here you are.

 
You need to read carefully what I wrote, " the 12 Imams themselves never declared to humanity that they were appointed by Allah (again, there are threads on this already)."
 
You posted Imam Baqir, now show me a hadith where he declared himself to the masses that he was appointed by Allah. 
 
 

This is not how nass works, there is no proof or daleel for a person who claims himself to be an Imam. The Imam's proof for being an imam is by two ways according to the ulema.1

1 -Miracles by the hand of the Imam.

2- Clear Designation by a prior Imam.
 
^As if the ulemas have a choice. They have to come up with a criteria based on what they can find to support their beliefs. If there was a hadith for each Imam declaring himself the the masses (like the Prophet did) then that would be a criteria above also and those hadiths would be spammed all over this site.
 
Regardless, 99% of those that lived during their times were not convinced. 
 

We already debated on this before.

The number of Imams are a far3 from the asl of imamah, the Qur'an doesn't need to speak upon it. The Qur'an is explained by the sunnah.
 
The Qur'an mentions the asl (fundamental) of Imamah.
The Sunnah defines the furu3(details,branches) of Imamah.
 
Same thing with salah, anyone who denies that fajr is 2 raka3 is a kafir, he has left islam. Yet the number of salah is still not mentioned in the Qur'an, why is something that makes you a kafir if you don't believe in it not in the Qur'an?
 
Because my friend we have we call the sunnah, which is the detail of the usul and fundamentals of this religion.
 
More examples :wacko:
 
Imamat is Usool, it's a belief, not a practice where you can compare to Furoo. Try avoiding examples, your posts are filled with irrelevant examples.
 
You are turning Shiasm into Examplism. 
 
The End.
 
 

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Again, the above is incorrect. You are erroneously trying to equate Imamat reasoning with another example. 

 

Either you're not reading how I am responding to you, or you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

It is not erroneous, the analogy between the imam's function being established and the sharia being established is perfectly valid.

 

 
1- The sharia is meant to be a governing body established for mankind.
2- The sharia is not currently being governed by a divine Imam/Leader

 

I'm sorry? You need to retake your basic logic 101 class. How is 1 and 2 even related or having any type of conclusion derived from it?

 

When you say the sharia, you are not defining what you're talking about. So I will comment and respond on all possible meanings for the word you're using.

If you say the sharia as the concept, as in, if someone came to you and asked you "does the sharia exist in Islam" ? You would of course answered yes. Now since we have a concept of the sharia in Islam, we can talk about this concept and mention it's attributes. The functionality of the sharia would be for example to punish the thieves, to established khums, to make jihad. You cannot claim that because the functions of the sharia are gone that the sharia does not exist, no, the sharia exists. Likewise with Imamah, we an appointed Imam, just because the Imam is in ghayba does not negate his authority over guarding the sharia. I will explain it to you more clearly......

 

If you can, answer these questions. 

 

1- What is the definition of Imam? The definition of Imam is someone who has authority over you, that's it. Everything else such as establishing rules and enforcing them is what is entailed to the meaning of authority, it is not the meaning itself.

 

2- Has Allah given authority to the Imam of our time according to the shias? Yes.

 

Thus if someone exists as an Imam and has authority over us then we by definition have an Imamah making you're point mute.

If you mean however that the sharia is established then it's not, if you claim however that there is no sharia in islam then you're a kafir.

 

3- Hence the sharia is not absolute.

 

 

You seem to me like you have not studied your own usul al fiqh. The sharia today is based upon zanni reports in both the shia madhab and more so in the sunni madhab. This is because sunnis and shias both derive their fiqh from ahad reports which are probable by nature. The sharia today is not based upon certainty because there is no infallible to guide you nor is your entire fiqh structure based upon mutawatir reports which give certainty. If someone wants to come and ask "how come god made your sharia like that", then that falls into the discussion of 3dl....

 
Hence the current sharia is governed by fallibles.

 

 

Again you are not defining what you mean by sharia, if you say that the sharia that Allah revealed is governed by fallible then you are a kafir. If you mean however that the current means to reach the true sharia (or just say sharia) as in instambat and usul al fiqh is done by fallibles then you are correct.

 
Hence the current Imams/Leaders are fallibles.

 

 
How are you even saying this? When we say "shaykh x" is our leader then we mean he is attempting to act as what the Imam wanted. Does this mean he is our absolute leader?

 

Is your shaykh your absolute leader? Or is rasulallah muhammad (saw) your absolute leader even though he is not present?

 
Therefore a divine absolute sharia doesn't exist.

 

If you mean the sharia that was revealed by Allah then you are a kafir, if you mean by the attempts to recreate the sharia again then you are correct it doesn't exist. 

 

There is no sunni sharia, shia sharia, jordan's sharia, abu hanifa's sharia, there is only Ash-sharia3. The definition of this is the laws that are revealed by Allah,these exist, however are not implemented. 


Therefore a divine Imam as a leader/guide doesn't exist.

 

 

Look how easily your silly statement can be demolished with simple questions.

 

Is rasulallah (saw) your imam and leader? Yes. 

 

Is he currently present? No?

 

Is rasulallah (saw) currently enforcing rules and teaching you about islam (being an Imam)? No.

 

According to your logic rasulallah (saw) is not Imam or leader.

 

 

The definition defines the functionality/objective from a Shia perspective.  :wacko:

 

 

Wrong. The definition is wilayah. Wilaya entails enforcing the sharia and guiding. If the current Imam is not enforcing the sharia, it doesn't mean he is not the Imam anymore, this is a childish and funny tactic you're using that is really surprising me and causing me not to take you seriously.

 

Again we will go back to the prophet (as).  The prophet a.s. is our leader, yet he is not currently functioning as a contemporary Imam/leader, does this make him lose this status? Of course not. You're arguing for the sake of arguing, you have no foundation from which you are arguing. What's worse this is something so obvious.

 

T

here is no point you are making at all by separating the position with the person who should be occupying it.

 

:wacko:  What are you talking about? Go back and show me where in my post I separated the position of Imamah from the Imam himself? No my friend, I separated the function of that position with the intrinsic meaning of it. This is common sense.

 

 

We are specifically talking about a concept of Shia 12 divine Imams. You are trying to combine the 12er concept of Imamat into the general term for Imamat.

 

 

 

First of all, we do not call the 12 imams divine, so correct your statement. Second of all, I am not speaking about general or specifics.

 

The meaning of wilaya and Imamah in islam means authority and leadership. This entails the actions of enforcing the sharia but it is not it's intrinsic meaning, hence if the prophet a.s. completed the message of Islam and had no more revelations, can you claim that he isn't a prophet anymore and that he loses his status? Again this is common sense.

 

The Imam of our time a.s. is called an Imam not because he is currently enforcing the sharia or implementing his rule, he is called our Imam because he has authority over us. Just because someone is not enforcing rules over you does not mean he does not have authority over you. Isa (as) has authority over you, tell me a single rule he enforced upon you, a single thing he has guided you into, or a single thing he taught you?

 

 

 
You need to read carefully what I wrote, " the 12 Imams themselves never declared to humanity that they were appointed by Allah (again, there are threads on this already)."

 

 
No don't worry I read carefully what you wrote, and I even responded to what you're intending to imply already, if you would of read my response instead of skimming through it, you wouldn't be repeating yourself.
 
 
You posted Imam Baqir, now show me a hadith where he declared himself to the masses that he was appointed by Allah. 

 

 

 

So what you're saying is, If the prophet a.s. said Imam al baqir is an Imam, yet al baqir never self endorsed himself then he isn't an Imam?

 

The prophet a.s. is wrong?

 

You'd answer no.

 

Then you'd asked, if he was an Imam and the prophet a.s. claimed he was an Imam then why didn't Imam al baqir claim imamate himself?

 

Again a person who claims he is an Imam and self endorses himself then it is not proof.

 

Proof can only come by two ways according to the Imams and the ulema.

 

The imam is given nass, or the Imam preforms miracles. There is no other logical way that imamate or even prophethood itself can be proven. 

 

Are you claiming that a person who is claiming he is an Imam himself this is sufficient proof? No.

 

 
Imamat is Usool, it's a belief, not a practice where you can compare to Furoo. Try avoiding examples, your posts are filled with irrelevant examples.

 

 

Imamah is an asl, the number of imams is the furu3 of that asl hence it is explained by the sunnah.

 

You are trying to downplay the example I gave because 2 rakats in fajr is from the furu3, indeed it is, yet if you deny it you're a kafir. If there is something that makes you a kafir if you deny it then why doesn't the Qur'an mention it?

 

So then I ask the question why isn't 2 rakats an asl if it makes you a kafir if you disbelieve in  it? It is because the number of rakats in salah(the concept of salah as a whole is an asl and a pillar in your madhab) is the furu3 of salah, just like the number of imams are the furu3 of the asl of Imamah which is mentioned clearly in the Qur'an.

 

"usul" and "furu3" are relative terms, and it depends what you're talking about.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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