I Swear Its Waajb To Follow A Marji

[IbnSohan]

The Ahl al-Dhikr are the Imams (as), not your 'ulama ...

dose it count to ask them through a mediator?

or should I ask them directly?

Is reading their hadith is equal to talking to them and consulting them? if yes then is asking those who know the hadith of ahlulbayt is in a way asking ahlu dhikr?

 

 

sighs.

[Abdul Qaim]

dose it count to ask them through a mediator?

or should I ask them directly?

Is reading their hadith is equal to talking to them and consulting them? if yes then is asking those who know the hadith of ahlulbayt is in a way asking ahlu dhikr?

 

 

sighs.

*Sigh*

 

Akhee al-kareem, I never said that there was anything wrong with consulting scholars. What I am arguing against is the wujub of doing taqleed to any particular scholar. Please understand the difference ...

[IbnSohan]

*Sigh*

 

Akhee al-kareem, I never said that there was anything wrong with consulting scholars. What I am arguing against is the wujub of doing taqleed to any particular scholar. Please understand the difference ...

It is wajib to do taqlid to ahlulbayt, it is either by asking them directly, referring back to their hadith or referring back to those who know their hadith

I do not see how is that a dilemma for Shia who believe that wilayah is a fundamental to the religion.

[Abdul Qaim]

It is wajib to do taqlid to ahlulbayt, it is either by asking them directly, referring back to their hadith or referring back to those who know their hadith

I do not see how is that a dilemma for Shia who believe that wilayah is a fundamental to the religion.

 

No offense, but that comparison is plain silly. Taqleed of the Imams (as) is absolute - that of fallible scholars is not. I am not advocating that believers should be scouring through Wasailu sh-Shi'a in order to deduce their own fataawa. What I am against, however, is blindly following the edicts of any one particular scholar. Tab'eed of various Maraaja' is perfectly acceptable for a mukallif, IMHO.

 

Anyway, this whole debate is a circular process, and we all know what happens when one flies in ever decreasing circles, don't we?

 

Ma'a salaama wa fee aman Allah

[IbnSohan]

No offense, but that comparison is plain silly. Taqleed of the Imams (as) is absolute - that of fallible scholars is not. I am not advocating that believers should be scouring through Wasailu sh-Shi'a in order to deduce their own fataawa. What I am against, however, is blindly following the edicts of any one particular scholar. Tab'eed of various Maraaja' is perfectly acceptable for a mukallif, IMHO.

 

Anyway, this whole debate is a circular process, and we all know what happens when one flies in ever decreasing circles, don't we?

 

Ma'a salaama wa fee aman Allah

You are talking out of ignorance. Your Humble opinion is not really a hujjah upon anyone ,maybe not hujja upon you too.

Blind following is not what taqlid is about. You can always have the option to refer to another scholar in any matter.

Can you tell me what evidence you based your humble opinion upon?

[Abdul Qaim]

 

 

Blind following is not what taqlid is about. You can always have the option to refer to another scholar in any matter.

 

You'd better tell most of the Maraaja' then, because other than in matters deemed "ihtiyaat waajib", most of them do not agree with you.

 

You are talking out of ignorance. Your Humble opinion is not really a hujjah upon anyone ,maybe not hujja upon you too.

Blind following is not what taqlid is about. You can always have the option to refer to another scholar in any matter.

Can you tell me what evidence you based your humble opinion upon?

 

I never said that my opinion is a hujjah on anyone else, so please learn to understand English properly before arguing with someone whose comprehension is superior to your own.

 

As I said in my last post ...

 

Anyway, this whole debate is a circular process, and we all know what happens when one flies in ever decreasing circles, don't we?

 

Ma'a salaama

Edited November 2, 2013 by Abdul Qaim

[IbnSohan]

You'd better tell most of the Maraaja' then, because other than in matters deemed "ihtiyaat waajib", most of them do not agree with you.

 

 

 

Ma'a salaama

makes me wonder if there is difference on non ihtiyat ahkam between ulama...

[rotten_coconut]

It's wajib to follow the Aimmah (as). That's our starting point.

When they were among the ummah, then this obligation means "to follow them directly".

During the minor occultation, it means "to follow his representatives", since the representatives could directly communicate to the imam.

During the major occultation, it'd mean that "employing whatever you think necessary to ensure yourself that you follow the imam", either you follow an `alim (or a group of `ulama), or read the primary sources by yourself (if you have the time and the capability).

It's just as simple as that.

[haideriam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Strange is this Hazrat e Insaan(us) that he just does not give up on making life more difficult for himself.

 

(wasalam)

[The Green Knight]

Well I want to add more from my own observation of things.

 

 

The teachings of the Imams (as) vs. those of our scholars who shape our religious policies. (This is the crux of the problem in this matter for me).

 

That of the blessed Imams was something that can not be really called mysterious because it was transparent yet it was certainly unique. They tend to be more than ascetic (or strict and firecely disciplined) at times yet dynamic and fluid as the circumstances changed but never once even for a moment abandoning the way. They also preached what they practiced. Whatever they practiced with each breath is solely out of complete obedience and pleasure of God Almighty and never for the self. Their teachings did not change (the odd conflicting hadith under dissimulation should be quite obvious to anyone paying attention through and through). Their habits did not change.

 

Now, anyone who studies them closely enough with whatever material we have today (and there is still mashaAllah a vast abundance of it) can get a sense of their "way". This way, or siraat, is what they all held in common and displayed through their lives (awwal awsat akhir, everyone) so it is even easier to get a sense of it. It can not be enveloped by the senses unless it is studied with the utmost dedication. This way is the essence, the path to success. Their saying and practice did not differ.

 

Now, lets take a look at our respected scholars.

 

It is sad, whether someone may not admit. Lets keep the teachings of the Imam in perspective here. Is it okay to have a sex change operation? To smoke during fasting (even if it were physically possible)? To eat of all sea animals? What did the Imam Ali (as) eat -- He refused to eat even the halal things that the holy Prophet (pbuh) did not eat in his life. Thats dedication. And if that torch is not meant to be carried on I don't know what we're doing in this religion then. I will write no more.

 

As for the messengers of the Imam Mahdi (as), by God they are still around and are actually in touch with him and are not four or twenty but are in abundance and in each territory. But who are they? That can not be found without changing ourselves. They can not be identified or contacted unless we evolve to the prerequisite level. Are they from among the scholars? A few of the scholars are indeed among their ranks. If you wish to learn more about these people I invite you to study resources like Bihaar al-anwaar and learn the likings of company of the blessed Imam to find out what he seeks in people to whom he reveals himself. When you research this you may find that he does not get attracted to the highly pious and scholarly but rather to those with the most dedicated and honest hearts leading simple and somewhat ascetic lives - trying to mimic the "way". And this dedication comes from sacrifice of whatever we hold most dear. It could be your wealth, health, anything you're not prepared to lose in the way of Allah. Without that dedication we're pretty much wasting our time as there is no other way to evolve. Without sacrifice there is no gain. That is the summary of all I have observed in this.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Darth Vader

[IbnSohan]

 

It is sad, whether someone may not admit. Lets keep the teachings of the Imam in perspective here. Is it okay to have a sex change operation? To smoke during fasting (even if it were physically possible)? To eat of all sea animals? What did the Imam Ali (as) eat -- He refused to eat even the halal things that the holy Prophet (pbuh) did not eat in his life. Thats dedication. And if that torch is not meant to be carried on I don't know what we're doing in this religion then. I will write no more.

 

can you make your thoughts clearer, please?

[Gypsy]

What I am against, however, is blindly following the edicts of any one particular scholar. Tab'eed of various Maraaja' is perfectly acceptable for a mukallif, IMHO.

 

Anyway, this whole debate is a circular process,

Following one Mullah is not good, but following a group of Mullah is fine? :donno: Why?

 

Are we in the business of shopping for fatwas, here and there?

[The Green Knight]

Following one Mullah is not good, but following a group of Mullah is fine? :donno: Why?

 

Are we in the business of shopping for fatwas, here and there?

 

Perhaps he meant seeking guidance from a group in religious matters and not following. Taking heed. You know, sister. Its not a business as its not sold by the consumer at least. And the gamble is far less risky when you're allowed to have a healthy selection of natural and logical options on your table.

 

 

 

can you make your thoughts clearer, please?

 

^ What about them?

Edited November 2, 2013 by Darth Vader

[IbnSohan]

Following one Mullah is not good, but following a group of Mullah is fine? :donno: Why?

 

Are we in the business of shopping for fatwas, here and there?

They are Ulama, scholars. Mulah is term used for zakirs, orators and is prerogative-ly used by non shia.

Perhaps he meant seeking guidance from a group in religious matters and not following. Taking heed. You know, sister. Its not a business as its not sold by the consumer at least. And the gamble is far less risky when you're allowed to have a healthy selection of natural and logical options on your table.

 

 

 

 

^ What about them?

corrupted, at least i the way you presented them up there.

[Abdul Qaim]

Perhaps he meant seeking guidance from a group in religious matters and not following. Taking heed. You know, sister. Its not a business as its not sold by the consumer at least. And the gamble is far less risky when you're allowed to have a healthy selection of natural and logical options on your table.

 

 

 

Precisely. Thank you for elucidating what I obviously made murky ...

[IbnSohan]

Taqlid dose not mean to mimic or to follow.... Taqlid means collaring, means making the correctness of my deeds as trust around the marji'e neck, like a necklace (qiladah)

When someone goes to Hajj and Zeyarah, it is usually asked from him to pray on their behalf and perform zeyarah on their behalf , they say "qaladtuka du'a and zeyara" meaning , i placed an amanah (trust) around your neck to mention me in your prayer and your Du'a

 

Since it is everyone's responsibility to seek knowledge, since it is a "wajib" to do so but it is not feasible to everyone, taqlid is to take this responsibility and put it on someone else, the marj'e, as a trust around his neck that he will be questioned about in the day of judgement.

 

This is not blind following, unless you are blind. It is more delicate, it is very important question to ask oneself:

should i act upon my limited knowledge or should I act upon some knowledgeable brother knowledge. In the day of judgement when I will be asked why i have not done that obligation, can i bring the excuse " i shall not follow mullah although i was told that they know better than me, although i know it is permissible?" will i be excused?

Did not the companions of our Imams sat in mosques and gave fatwa based on their knowledge? Did not Shia though out the ages lived in distant places away from the Imams and were taught religion affairs through other men who conveyed to them their Imams teachings?

 

suddenly in the 21st century the standards got higher and a direct contact with an imam is required?

[The Green Knight]

 

corrupted, at least i the way you presented them up there.

 

^ What you saw was what you got. Corrupted? Thats also fine and predictable.

 

Taqlid dose not mean to mimic or to follow.... Taqlid means collaring, means making the correctness of my deeds as trust around the marji'e neck, like a necklace (qiladah)

When someone goes to Hajj and Zeyarah, it is usually asked from him to pray on their behalf and perform zeyarah on their behalf , they say "qaladtuka du'a and zeyara" meaning , i placed an amanah (trust) around your neck to mention me in your prayer and your Du'a

 

Since it is everyone's responsibility to seek knowledge, since it is a "wajib" to do so but it is not feasible to everyone, taqlid is to take this responsibility and put it on someone else, the marj'e, as a trust around his neck that he will be questioned about in the day of judgement.

 

This is not blind following, unless you are blind. It is more delicate, it is very important question to ask oneself:

should i act upon my limited knowledge or should I act upon some knowledgeable brother knowledge. In the day of judgement when I will be asked why i have not done that obligation, can i bring the excuse " i shall not follow mullah although i was told that they know better than me, although i know it is permissible?" will i be excused?

Did not the companions of our Imams sat in mosques and gave fatwa based on their knowledge? Did not Shia though out the ages lived in distant places away from the Imams and were taught religion affairs through other men who conveyed to them their Imams teachings?

 

suddenly in the 21st century the standards got higher and a direct contact with an imam is required?

 

The Quran says that each must carry their own burden and no one else can "stand in" for them. So when you eat that next platter of sushi on your maraja's endorsement (if you follow that one), or when you're on the examination table waiting for a sex change operation, remember that the decision was actually your own and you will have to answer for it yourself.

 

Taqleed of a fallible and single maraja is quite illogical to be honest. Then the concept of taqleed gets more absurd and by the power of some logically unsound criterion it shows us a pool of individuals to pick and follow from -- one. Why. What other reason can there be but to share the khums equally among themselves. And to make things worse, these maraja of the holy 21st century many of the most renowned ones are saying and doing quite objectionable things as I mentioned before. They are obviously quite fallible and narrowing down that illumination from them all will narrow down your own chances. And narrowing it down to just one of all these respected but obviously fallible is a gamble I'm not even going to play.

 

I believe it is this concept of taqleed that has been corrupted. Its failure is evident by the everyday and real life misconduct and ignorance of those who practice it. I see them just as corrupt, mean, dishonest, lying, stealing, inhuman and animal as the misguided of the 'aammah. This is an understood mechanism and the parable of it is that of a family -- if the parents are corrupt, it doesn't matter what they preach because the children have their actions under scrutiny and will try to mimic it and become like them. If this form of taqleed had been something divine then how has it all devolved like this. The lowest abuse of the concept of taqleed can be seen in the form of Wilayat Faqeeh. 

 

I've already written and indicated the intended purpose of taqleed. We should all learn a lot more about the Imam and his likings and locate his chosen messengers while evolving ourselves as well and preparing for comprehensive dedication involving of sacrifice of any and every thing. This last part, the requirement of dedication and sacrifice, is where you shall find the mirror that tells you what you really are and if the worships had been in vain or if they paid off to to make you successful.

 

While preparing of course we should stay in touch and pay heed to what they are all saying concerning religious matters so we may take a bearing from them and correct course or even learn. Bless some of them whose books guided me through life. So no I'm not advocating an abandonment of the marajia rather I've attempted to offer correction to it.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Darth Vader

[IbnSohan]

did you just say that Imam Ali deduced the laws of food that our prophet did not spoke about?

[haideriam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

 

 Bless some of them whose books guided me through life. So no I'm not advocating an abandonment of the marajia rather I've attempted to offer correction to it.

 

And here I am feeling so humbled bro.

Irony is akhi, I know less and yet I can tell him what is right at that point in time. And this is not just one marja and one risala. It is not an infallible system, but is the best of all the madahibs and sects and religions. And guess why it is the best.......

 

 

did you just say that Imam Ali deduced the laws of food that our prophet did not spoke about?

 

He said dedication  and believe stems from submission, correct me if I err.

 

(wasalam)

Edited November 2, 2013 by haideriam

[alialiali]

aslaam alaykum

 

yes we have to seek knowledge,  majority of the people are evil, arogant, ill hearted, lack common sense and education, their spirits are dark and have limits due to this, then there are many inbetween and above these kinds of people,

 

the army that follows satan, all become part of satan, the army that follows the truth, all become part of the truth. 

Why argue when men are one with theIr leaders. the passengers will have a simular ending as to the driver.

 

 marajas are men chosen by other men, they are famous and  very easy to find, religion is very simple and straightforward for the ones who follow these marajas: google,  tv, papers, news, magazines, politics, they are everywhere to be found for shias to select from.

 

to find the truth you goto search for the truth, the truth is with the one from the truth and he is the one whom following makes you become part of the truth,

 

the amount you achieve depends on the sacrifices and efforts you make towards it

[PenOfTruth]

and yet still people are arguing when the hadith is there, bro if you want to argue, go look for the problems in the ahadith not in the maraji. see how you have to argue ? you don't know what the hell is going on. and you come and tell me there is no need to follow a marji? if you don't agree with imam Hassan alaskari (as) that's your problem, not the maraji, if no one followed a marji, there would absolute havoc in society, no one would know what to do, because no one has studied to the point where they islam inside out. Giving people their laws on a golden platter for them to know takes a whole life, no time for anything we spend our lives doing. Tell me, if they reached the highest level of islam studies, then why did they ALL reach the conclusion of taqleed? not one of them disagreed on this issue, why? because unlike us, they gave their life towards their studies. Unless you did the same, I wont listen. These people telling me that the difference between the little ghayba and big one, is the four representatives had contact with the imam (af), bro how stubborn can you be, its clear. Just because they had contact with the imam (af) doesn't make a difference, our maraji studied like the four did. what other excuses do you have?

Edited November 3, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[Al-Hussayni]

^

Ya ukhti, no one is disputing the hadith, rather the correct Interpretation of it which I've already explained. You said the following statement:

"...If no one followed a marji, there would be absolute havoc in society, no one would know what to do..."

This is a false idea that people have been brainwashed into thinking. No one is against the scholars! What some people are against though is this blind emulation of them without question. I thought marjas were only supposed to answer fiqh questions but instead they seemed to be asked all sorts of things including matters of 'aqeeda!

In my humble opinion, the taqleed of marjas has caused more chaos between shias (Shirazi vs WF vs fadlullah, najaf vs qum) & shias seem to be arguing over this more than anything else.

Nowadays you have 'marjas' giving all sorts of funky fatwas & it seems to me that as time progresses, some of the old & mainly new maraja will be making things halal that are haram & vice versa! This is one of the main signs of aakhir uz zaman and believe me, when Al-Mahdi (AJ) arrives, the first thing he will do is deal with those 'scholars' who manipulated the religion & shariah.

Be honest with yourselves, if Al-Mahdi (AJ) comes & makes an order in complete contradiction to what your 'marja' has told you, will you be will to step over him for the sake of the Imam?

Edited November 3, 2013 by Hussainiyat Zindabad

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم

 

and yet still people are arguing when the hadith is there, bro if you want to argue, go look for the problems in the ahadith not in the maraji. see how you have to argue ? you don't know what the hell is going on. and you come and tell me there is no need to follow a marji? if you don't agree with imam Hassan alaskari (as) that's your problem, not the maraji, if no one followed a marji, there would absolute havoc in society, no one would know what to do, because no one has studied to the point where they islam inside out. Giving people their laws on a golden platter for them to know takes a whole life, no time for anything we spend our lives doing. Tell me, if they reached the highest level of islam studies, then why did they ALL reach the conclusion of taqleed? not one of them disagreed on this issue, why? because unlike us, they gave their life towards their studies. Unless you did the same, I wont listen. These people telling me that the difference between the little ghayba and big one, is the four representatives had contact with the imam (af), bro how stubborn can you be, its clear. Just because they had contact with the imam (af) doesn't make a difference, our maraji studied like the four did. what other excuses do you have?

 

I think you're getting a bit carried away, there is no wujub for doing taqlid, if there was, then the author of the book you quoted (Shaykh Al-Hurr Al-'Amili, author of Wasa'il Al-Shi'a) would've been from amongst the sinners seeing as he was akhbari, along with many major 'ulama, including 'allama majlisi. Secondly, please stop treating that hadith as a gospel truth, it's authenticity can be questioned seeing as it's a mursal chain from kitab al-ihtijaj of shaykh al-tabarsi. Thirdly, alim to do taqlid to? We have many ahadith saying he who memorizes 40 ahadith is counted as the 'ulama, or does it have to be the concept we've evolved our selves of someone who studies for years and gets ijtihad? Don't swear about something you can't argue well next time, or seem to have proper background knowledge of ;)

 

والسلام

[PenOfTruth]

^

Ya ukhti, no one is disputing the hadith, rather the correct Interpretation of it which I've already explained. You said the following statement:

"...If no one followed a marji, there would be absolute havoc in society, no one would know what to do..."

This is a false idea that people have been brainwashed into thinking. No one is against scholars! What some people are against though is this blind emulation of them without question. I thought marjas were only supposed to answer fiqh questions but instead they seemed to be asked all sorts of things including matters of 'aqeeda!

In my humble opinion, the taqleed of marjas has caused more chaos between shias (Shirazi vs WF vs fadlullah, najaf vs qum) & shias seem to be arguing over this more than anything else.

Nowadays you have 'marjas' giving all sorts of funky fatwas & it seems to me that as time progresses, some of the old & mainly new maraja will be making things halal that are haram & vice versa! This is one of the main signs of aakhir uz zaman and believe me, when Al-Mahdi (AJ) arrives, the first thing he will do is deal with those 'scholars' who manipulated the religion & shariah.

Be honest with yourselves, if Al-Mahdi (AJ) comes & makes an order in complete contradiction to what your 'marja' has told you, will you be will to step over him for the sake of Imam!?

 

nope, the imams (af) father told us to do taqleed why would his son differ, if you don't reject the hadith take your opinion into action, not rejecting it means following it not simply nodding your head to it. The maraji have not caused ciaos at all, they actually gave their lives to study islam and you tell me that they make havoc in the world? they study islam inside out and your telling me that make havoc? they tell us stuff we don't have time to study and your telling me they cause ciaos? the fatwas they give are depending on their high islamic studies and our telling me they are funky?

 

your right, their fatwas will be held in question on the day of judgment, they will be asked why they did this and that, and they know that they have all their followers on their neck on the day of judgment.

 

but reflect about what you said the taqleed of marjas has caused more chaos between shias (Shirazi vs WF vs fadlullah, najaf vs qum) & shias seem to be arguing over this more than anything else.

 

-- yepp I agree, these are not the mainstream scholars, and their streams of thinking make us the people with little knowledge disagree with them. It is obvious who the real scholars are, don't look at these who I myself disagree with.

 

waslam.

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم

 

 

I think you're getting a bit carried away, there is no wujub for doing taqlid, if there was, then the author of the book you quoted (Shaykh Al-Hurr Al-'Amili, author of Wasa'il Al-Shi'a) would've been from amongst the sinners seeing as he was akhbari, along with many major 'ulama, including 'allama majlisi. Secondly, please stop treating that hadith as a gospel truth, it's authenticity can be questioned seeing as it's a mursal chain from kitab al-ihtijaj of shaykh al-tabarsi. Thirdly, alim to do taqlid to? We have many ahadith saying he who memorizes 40 ahadith is counted as the 'ulama, or does it have to be the concept we've evolved our selves of someone who studies for years and gets ijtihad? Don't swear about something you can't argue well next time, or seem to have proper background knowledge of ;)

 

والسلام

 

 

 

salam sheikhna alkareem waljaleel.

[IbnSohan]

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم

 

 

I think you're getting a bit carried away, there is no wujub for doing taqlid, if there was, then the author of the book you quoted (Shaykh Al-Hurr Al-'Amili, author of Wasa'il Al-Shi'a) would've been from amongst the sinners seeing as he was akhbari, along with many major 'ulama, including 'allama majlisi. Secondly, please stop treating that hadith as a gospel truth, it's authenticity can be questioned seeing as it's a mursal chain from kitab al-ihtijaj of shaykh al-tabarsi. Thirdly, alim to do taqlid to? We have many ahadith saying he who memorizes 40 ahadith is counted as the 'ulama, or does it have to be the concept we've evolved our selves of someone who studies for years and gets ijtihad? Don't swear about something you can't argue well next time, or seem to have proper background knowledge of ;)

 

والسلام

 

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/558/

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/4278/

 

Although you might know that already, but I thought I'd share it as reminder. You are one of few here who do not share opinions about religion and I have so much respect for this.

[kadhim]

While it is definitely useful for the everyday believer to have handy books and websites where he can look up quick answers to questions about fiqh, anyone who's looked at more than one of these books will notice that the books are ~99% identical across all different scholars. And by this I mean something like 99% of the rulings on basic matters of prayers, fasting, hajj, marriage, what to eat, zakat, khums, it's all the same, unanimous consent. Even those scholars who are railed against as crazed liberals, the fuss is over some difference amongst a handful of rulings out of the say, 5000 rulings in these books. Which kind of undermines the notion that 1) Following some scholar is some existential necessity and 2) The community actually values independent juristic judgment.

 

If it was all so complicated and such a minefield, there wouldn't be such an absurdly high level of correlation across all the scholars. I'm not saying it's some simple matter of opening a hadith book and reading the answer (though it often is); there is some technique and analysis to it. But clearly there is some level of reasonable clarity and settledness to it. And if we really believed in the value of scholars as individuals to try to analyze and reach a conclusion, then the community wouldn't attack scholars like savages when they come up with an answer that differs from the "majority consensus."

 

So, sure, the product is ultimately useful for average believers, but if the different brands are almost entirely interchangeable, what is the point of making a loyalty to one specific brand? Cola is cola, man.

Edited November 3, 2013 by kadhim

[IbnSohan]

While it is definitely useful for the everyday believer to have handy books and websites where he can look up quick answers to questions about fiqh, anyone who's looked at more than one of these books will notice that the books are ~99% identical across all different scholars. And by this I mean something like 99% of the rulings on basic matters of prayers, fasting, hajj, marriage, what to eat, zakat, khums, it's all the same, unanimous consent. Even those scholars who are railed against as crazed liberals, the fuss is over some difference amongst a handful of rulings out of the say, 5000 rulings in these books. Which kind of undermines the notion that 1) Following some scholar is some existential necessity and 2) The community actually values independent juristic judgment.

 

If it was all so complicated and such a minefield, there wouldn't be such an absurdly high level of correlation across all the scholars. I'm not saying it's some simple matter of opening a hadith book and reading the answer (though it often is); there is some technique and analysis to it. But clearly there is some level of reasonable clarity and settledness to it. And if we really believed in the value of scholars as individuals to try to analyze and reach a conclusion, then the community wouldn't attack scholars like savages when they come up with an answer that differs from the "majority consensus."

 

So, sure, the product is ultimately useful for average believers, but if the different brands are almost entirely interchangeable, what is the point of making a loyalty to one specific brand? Cola is cola, man.

I think taqlid is about the new events.

[The Green Knight]

Just because they had contact with the imam (af) doesn't make a difference, our maraji studied like the four did. what other excuses do you have?

 

That deserves a Darwin award. And no sorry I have no more excuses. I yield and wave a white flag to the overwhelmingly superior intellect present in this thread and give up in peace, while I still have the chance.

 

Cola is cola, man.

................ =/

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم

 

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/558/

http://www.aqaed.com/faq/4278/

 

Although you might know that already, but I thought I'd share it as reminder. You are one of few here who do not share opinions about religion and I have so much respect for this.

 

JazakAllah Habibi, btw, who is that aqaed site run by? I've always wondered, if you know

 

والسلام

[Abdul Qaim]

That deserves a Darwin award. And no sorry I have no more excuses. I yield and wave a white flag to the overwhelmingly superior intellect present in this thread and give up in peace, while I still have the chance.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, this whole debate is a circular process, and we all know what happens when one flies in ever decreasing circles, don't we?

 

[PenOfTruth]

That deserves a Darwin award. And no sorry I have no more excuses. I yield and wave a white flag to the overwhelmingly superior intellect present in this thread and give up in peace, while I still have the chance.

 

................ =/

 

LOOOOOOOL

[IbnSohan]

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم

 

 

JazakAllah Habibi, btw, who is that aqaed site run by? I've always wondered, if you know

 

والسلام

 

agha Sistani.

[Mu3lam]

what about this "your intellect is a proof hujjat" is a hadith from imam sadiq (as) secondly there are many hadith indicating it being needed and pointing toward referring to scholars. Saying these things do not mean something is mere opinion and not conclusion based on a conditioned aqil. And secondly why would wahid hadith not be accepted and no subsect of 12vers think that only mutawatur hadith are accepted. ,Thirdly I mentioned from our sixth imam telling people to take fatwa from non masoom.

1) My intellect is telling me that God doesn't care if I pray 5 times or 1 time.  Can I switch to praying 1 per day?  Will it fulfill my religious obligation?  If no, then that is not a useful argument.

 

2) You say that there are many ahadeeth indicating it, but as soon as I ask you to furnish them it is either paste a bunch of ahadeeth that don't prove anything or ...

 

 

3) Taking fatawa from non-masumeen is not the same as the modern system of taqleed.

 

 

do you know Arabic?

 

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه>>>> فللعوام-ان-يقلدوه

if you thinks its not important than why did the imam leave four messengers when he was in his first occultation, he just had to be like you only need to believe in god, his prophet and imam but no he left four messengers so all your arguments are weak already. People think they don't need to follow a mari because they are all that, see how you don't even know whats waajib ? that's how we would all be if we didn't follow people more studied than us, we would all be doing islam according to our own basis of knowledge when our knowledge is nothing compared to the maraji. Bro the hadith is there and the imam (af) made it clear by leaving four messengers, you take it or leave it.

waslam shaikhna.

There is a difference between 4 messengers that directly link between us and the Imam and the current system of taqleed.  In case you didn't realize it, those messengers merely got the answers from the Imam and then reported them to the people.  The Maraji' do no such thing.  They innovate their fatawa.  You can either accept the fact that real scholars merely narrate ahadeeth or you can leave it.  But there is NO basis whatsoever for the current system of taqleed in our religion.  You are using straw men arguments and misinterpreted ahadeeth to back up a concept that is foreign to Shi'ism.  Also, why the need for the big, red, and underlined words?  Are you trying to make a bold point?  Please just stick to the discussion and try not to destroy my eyes.  Thanks.

[Rohani]

Then this just proves you lack training of the difference between intellect and opinion and posting hadith which probably have been posted make no difference as brother you are not using your aqil rather your unconditioned opinion. Intellect means something the intellectual society can agree upon not your possible logic which is opinion or possible results. Brothers and sisters there were reasons that usoolism overcame akhbarism and brother mualam you should refrain acting like a teacher when you need

to become a student.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Maitham

[Hajji87]

lol bro relax I never said hes my imam. it is not necessary for him to be infallible. even though he looks so :)

did you see this hadith?

 

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه>>>> فللعوام-ان-يقلدوه

 

sorry the imam doesn't agree with you.

 

and if you think its stupid then why the imam left four not infallible messengers to guide his people while he was in his little ghayba.

First I'm a girl

 

Second I don't read Arabic

 

Third  I never called the Imam stupid

 

Fourth, as I said up there^ it's important to follow a marjaa, however to claim something is wajib means it is haram not to do so. Meaning you are sinning if you don't do said thing. And that's something we can't fully implement in this situation.

You can simply combine rulings of fatwas given by Sistani, Khamenei, Khomeini, Fadlallah and whatever other marjaa and still not be sinning. 

 

It is NOT obligatory to follow ONE marjaa so it is not a sin if you do not follow one.