I Swear Its Waajb To Follow A Marji

[PenOfTruth]

salams alaikum,

 

I have met some people on here, who think its not waajib to follow a marji and even ask for evidence, before anything, please reflect on these issues

 

1) have you reached the highest level of studies to come out and say its not waajb? no? ok.

2) How are you going to know your halal and haram issues? ask others? well guess what, they follow a marji. unless you and them are guessing depending on your little amount of knowledge.

3) if you are going to spend the rest of your life guessing your laws, get ready for a lot of questioning on the day of judgment.

4) why do you think the imam (af) left four messengers before his big and main occultation? 

 

now, here are the narrations that clearly say its waajb to follow a marji'. :

 

1: Imam alaskari (as) says- if there were jurists who preserves himself, guards his religiosity, is against his desires, obedient to his mawla,then the common people in the society should follow him.

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه فللعوام ان يقلدوه

 

 

 

source : wasaa'l alshee'a, book18, page 95, narration 20.

 

_______________________________________________________________

 

2 : imam Mahdi (af) says : for the incidents that occur, refer to the narrators of our words for they are my proofing for you and im am the proofing for Allah swt.

اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله 

 

source : wasa'l alshe'a, book18, page 101, narration 9.

Edited October 29, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[Grief]

Just to add... From Al-Quran:

 

"Question the people of remembrance if you do not know." (21:7)

 

"But why should not a party from every section of them (the believers) go forth to become learned in the religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that they may beware?" (9:124)

Edited October 29, 2013 by BuggyLemon

[Al-Hussayni]

salams alaikum,

 

I have met some people on here, who think its not waajib to follow a marji and even ask for evidence, before anything, please reflect on these issues

 

1) have you reached the highest level of studies to come out and say its not waajb? no? ok.

 

Do we need to reach 'the highest level of studies' to learn if something is wajib or not?

 

2) How are you going to know your halal and haram issues? ask others? well guess what, they follow a marji. unless you and them are guessing depending on your little amount of knowledge.

 

Ali has narrated from Muhammad ibn “Isa from Yunus from Hammad from Abu ‘Abd Allah [as], recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: 

‘I heard the Imam [as] saying, ‘There is nothing but it is in the Book and the Sunnah.

 

Source: Al Kafi, Vol. 1, H 182, Ch. 20, h4 

 

 

3) if you are going to spend the rest of your life guessing your laws, get ready for a lot of questioning on the day of judgment.

 

We don't need to guess laws, we look for proof from Qur'an & Sunnah.

 

4) why do you think the imam (af) left four messengers before his big and main occultation? do

 

The people didn't do taqleed to the four representatives in the sense the Shia do today.

  

now, here are the narrations that clearly say its waajb to follow a marji'. :

 

1: Imam alaskari (as) says- if there were jurists who preserves himself, guards his religiosity, is against his desires, obedient to his mawla,then the common people in the society should follow him.

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه فللعوام ان يقلدوه

 

source : wasaa'l alshee'a, book18, page 95, narration 20.

 

 

This is only part of the hadith, if you read the full hadith (Which is long) you will find that it has nothing to do with 'taqleed'

 

_______________________________________________________________

 

2 : imam Mahdi (af) says : for the incidents that occur, refer to the narrators of our words for they are my proofing for you and im am the proofing for Allah swt.

اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله 

 

source : wasa'l alshe'a, book18, page 101, narration 9.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with 'taqleed', read the words carefully,  ' Refer to the Narrators of our words/hadith'

[notme]

First, can we be perfectly clear on what it means to follow a marja? The Quran is clear that we should take guidance from the most knowledgeable. It also clearly condemns blind obedience to tradition. So what is following, that is taking guidance but not blind obedience?

[Haydar Husayn]

There are major issues with the logic of your argument.

[PenOfTruth]

There are major issues with the logic of your argument.

 its not "my logic", its a narration..

the narration is right there why are you blaming me?

 

 

salams alaikum,

 

I have met some people on here, who think its not waajib to follow a marji and even ask for evidence, before anything, please reflect on these issues

 

1) have you reached the highest level of studies to come out and say its not waajb? no? ok.

 

Do we need to reach 'the highest level of studies' to learn if something is wajib or not? no we all the know whats waajb, do you know the haram and halal issues? Tahara? marriage? divorce? women issues? men issues?  money issues? Islamic history? Islamic jurisprudence? quran text? Arabic grammer? all these and more with the exact details? when you know all this, us common people have to follow, we have not given our whole time and life to Islamic studies.

 

2) How are you going to know your halal and haram issues? ask others? well guess what, they follow a marji. unless you and them are guessing depending on your little amount of knowledge.

 

Ali has narrated from Muhammad ibn “Isa from Yunus from Hammad from Abu ‘Abd Allah [as], recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: 

‘I heard the Imam [as] saying, ‘There is nothing but it is in the Book and the Sunnah. Ok, have you studied every aspect and detail of the book and sunna?

 

Source: Al Kafi, Vol. 1, H 182, Ch. 20, h4 

 

 

3) if you are going to spend the rest of your life guessing your laws, get ready for a lot of questioning on the day of judgment.

 

We don't need to guess laws, we look for proof from Qur'an & Sunnah. answerd.

 

4) why do you think the imam (af) left four messengers before his big and main occultation? do

 

The people didn't do taqleed to the four representatives in the sense the Shia do today. how?

  

now, here are the narrations that clearly say its waajb to follow a marji'. :

 

1: Imam alaskari (as) says- if there were jurists who preserves himself, guards his religiosity, is against his desires, obedient to his mawla,then the common people in the society should follow him.

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه فللعوام ان يقلدوه

 

source : wasaa'l alshee'a, book18, page 95, narration 20.

 

 

This is only part of the hadith, if you read the full hadith (Which is long) you will find that it has nothing to do with 'taqleed'  yeah that's why I took the part out that talks about taqleed. Again don't put our knowledge to the scholars, they know what the imams mean. plus do you know Arabic? because the word taqleed is right there if you look.

_______________________________________________________________

 

2 : imam Mahdi (af) says : for the incidents that occur, refer to the narrators of our words for they are my proofing for you and im am the proofing for Allah swt.

اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله 

 

source : wasa'l alshe'a, book18, page 101, narration 9.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with 'taqleed', read the words carefully,  ' Refer to the Narrators of our words/hadith' yeah because the imam thought you, I and every muslims who narrates his words should be followed? you cant expect to know what the imam means. See how you don't know what the hadith means?  I don't either but the scholars do. Obviously he means certain people.

 

 

First, can we be perfectly clear on what it means to follow a marja? The Quran is clear that we should take guidance from the most knowledgeable. It also clearly condemns blind obedience to tradition. So what is following, that is taking guidance but not blind obedience?

 

due to their knowledge about every aspect in islam, which we will never know, us common people of society have to follow the studied to know our islamic jurisprudence.

Edited October 29, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[TheIslamHistory]

a

Edited October 30, 2013 by TheIslamHistory

[TheIslamHistory]

 

salams alaikum,

 

I have met some people on here, who think its not waajib to follow a marji and even ask for evidence, before anything, please reflect on these issues

 

1) have you reached the highest level of studies to come out and say its not waajb? no? ok.

 

Do we need to reach 'the highest level of studies' to learn if something is wajib or not?

 

2) How are you going to know your halal and haram issues? ask others? well guess what, they follow a marji. unless you and them are guessing depending on your little amount of knowledge.

 

Ali has narrated from Muhammad ibn “Isa from Yunus from Hammad from Abu ‘Abd Allah [as], recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: 

‘I heard the Imam [as] saying, ‘There is nothing but it is in the Book and the Sunnah.

 

Source: Al Kafi, Vol. 1, H 182, Ch. 20, h4 

 

 

3) if you are going to spend the rest of your life guessing your laws, get ready for a lot of questioning on the day of judgment.

 

We don't need to guess laws, we look for proof from Qur'an & Sunnah.

 

4) why do you think the imam (af) left four messengers before his big and main occultation? do

 

The people didn't do taqleed to the four representatives in the sense the Shia do today.

  

now, here are the narrations that clearly say its waajb to follow a marji'. :

 

1: Imam alaskari (as) says- if there were jurists who preserves himself, guards his religiosity, is against his desires, obedient to his mawla,then the common people in the society should follow him.

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه فللعوام ان يقلدوه

 

source : wasaa'l alshee'a, book18, page 95, narration 20.

 

 

This is only part of the hadith, if you read the full hadith (Which is long) you will find that it has nothing to do with 'taqleed'

 

_______________________________________________________________

 

2 : imam Mahdi (af) says : for the incidents that occur, refer to the narrators of our words for they are my proofing for you and im am the proofing for Allah swt.

اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله 

 

source : wasa'l alshe'a, book18, page 101, narration 9.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with 'taqleed', read the words carefully,  ' Refer to the Narrators of our words/hadith'

 

 

 

 

Statement:

We don't need to guess laws, we look for proof from Qur'an & Sunnah.

 

And Do you know All the Truth in the Quran? The verses Inside out? The Sunnah from top to Bottom? Who do you follow? Your Society? Who do your Society follow?

 

 

Statement:

This is only part of the hadith, if you read the full hadith (Which is long) you will find that it has nothing to do with 'taqleed'

 

(1) The narration is clear and if you cannot see that, then Can you write what you so?

(2) Past the Full narration here thanks.

 

 

 

Statement:

The people didn't do taqleed to the four representatives in the sense the Shia do today.

 

They (people) were following those who had a Connection the Imam, and people asked them to Ask the Imam (a.f) And they would get Replies, So who do we ask today? Who knows best? Confused?

 

 

 

 

[notme]

due to their knowledge about every aspect in islam, which we will never know, us common people of society have to follow the studied to know our islamic jurisprudence.

Thank you for your reply, but I am still wondering what is the common meaning when we say "follow a marja" or "do taqleed".  Does that mean follow one person in everything?  Does that mean find out their verdicts on even what we think we already know from our own knowledge of Quran and hadith?  Can more than one person be "followed" or must each person choose only one?  (Why are there differences among the different scholars?) 

 

A bit aside from that question but I am wondering what is the obligation of a follower if he believes a fatwa of his marja to be in violation of Quran or accepted hadith?  Does he obey anyway?  Is he obligated to point out the suspected flaw in judgement to the scholar?  Is he obligated to seek knowledge further from original sources to verify either the marja's or his own mistake?

 

Myself, I seek guidance from Sayyid Sistani just like many other westerners, and I've never seen him rule wrongly, but it could happen.  These scholars spend their entire lives in intense study, but they are still common men, not imams.  They are perfectly capable of making mistakes.  And again, why do different scholars sometimes reach different conclusions on the same issue?

[polymath07]

Thank you for your reply, but I am still wondering what is the common meaning when we say "follow a marja" or "do taqleed".  Does that mean follow one person in everything?  Does that mean find out their verdicts on even what we think we already know from our own knowledge of Quran and hadith?  Can more than one person be "followed" or must each person choose only one?  (Why are there differences among the different scholars?) 

 

A bit aside from that question but I am wondering what is the obligation of a follower if he believes a fatwa of his marja to be in violation of Quran or accepted hadith?  Does he obey anyway?  Is he obligated to point out the suspected flaw in judgement to the scholar?  Is he obligated to seek knowledge further from original sources to verify either the marja's or his own mistake?

 

Myself, I seek guidance from Sayyid Sistani just like many other westerners, and I've never seen him rule wrongly, but it could happen.  These scholars spend their entire lives in intense study, but they are still common men, not imams.  They are perfectly capable of making mistakes.  And again, why do different scholars sometimes reach different conclusions on the same issue?

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/235015153-why-not-taqleed/

[Al-Hussayni]

 

And Do you know All the Truth in the Quran? The verses Inside out? The Sunnah from top to Bottom? Who do you follow? Your Society? Who do your Society follow?

 

There seems to be a misconception that we need to know the Qur'an and Sunnah fully before we can act upon anything, who said this? I don't follow anyone in particular, but I refer issues back to the ma'sumeen [as] or someone who can bring me the solution from Qur'an or Sunnah, simple.

 

 

(1) The narration is clear and if you cannot see that, then Can you write what you so?

 

The narrations is indeed clear and infact we will not reject anything unless it can be proven to be against the book and the sunnah, instead as per instructions of the ma'sumeen [as] we either return it back to them or try to understand it from their traditions.

 

The most important word in that hadith is 'Fuqaha' so lets see who is meant by the 'fuqaha' according to the ma'sumeen [as]:

 

And from Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Muhammad Bin Falan Al Rafiqi, who narrates: ‘My cousin brother who was a pious man (reports), Abu Al-Hassan [as] said to him: ‘Go ponder and seek the Ahadith’. I said, ‘From whom?’ He [as] said: ‘From the Fuqaha (Ahadith narrators) of Medina, then present to me the Ahadith’. - Wasail ul Shia, H. 33278

 

 

Muhammad Bin Muhammad Al Numan Al Mufeed in ‘Al Ikhtisaas’ from Jafar Bin Muhammad Bin Qulawayh, from Al Husain Bin Muhammad Bin Aamir, from Ma’aly Ibn Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Jamhour, from Abdul Rahmaan Bin Abu Najraan, from a companions of his, with a chain up to Abu Abd Allah [as]: Abu Abd Allah [as] said: ‘One who memorises from our [as] Ahadith, forty Ahadith, Allah [azw] will Send him on the Day of Judgement as ‘عالما فقيها’ a Faqih, a knowledgeable one’. - Wasail ul shia, H 33293

 

 

 

And from Muhammad Bin Saeed Al Kashy, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad Bin Hamaad Al Maruzy Al Mahmoudy, with a chain going up to Al Sadiq [as], said: 

 

‘Recognise the status of our [as] Shiites in accordance with how many good narrations they relate from us [as], for we do not consider the ‘الفقيه’ ‘Faqih’ from them to be a Faqih unless they are narrators of Ahadith’. It was said to him [as], ‘Is a believer a narrator of Ahadith?’ He [as] said: ‘He is an understanding one; and the understanding one is a narrator of Ahadith’. - Wasail ul Shia, H. 33453

 

So from the above traditions, it is clear that a 'faqih' will be that who narrates the ahadith of the ma'sumeen [as] and not the one who practices 'ijtihad'. The one who issues a fatwa based on 'Ijtihad' is called a 'Mujtahid'.

 

(2) Past the Full narration here thanks.

 

Sorry I was thinking of another narration, but you are correct, the tradition of Imam 'Askari [as] is fine.

 

 

 

They (people) were following those who had a Connection the Imam, and people asked them to Ask the Imam (a.f) And they would get Replies, So who do we ask today? Who knows best? Confused?

 

 

Yes precisely, they used to refer it back to the Imam [aj] as they had contact with him and give an appropriate reply the Shia.  We must try to look into things for ourselves & ask those who have access to the traditions.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2013 by Hussainiyat Zindabad

[PenOfTruth]

 

 

And Do you know All the Truth in the Quran? The verses Inside out? The Sunnah from top to Bottom? Who do you follow? Your Society? Who do your Society follow?

 

There seems to be a misconception that we need to know the Qur'an and Sunnah fully before we can act upon anything, who said this? I don't follow anyone in particular, but I refer issues back to the ma'sumeen [as] or someone who can bring me the solution from Qur'an or Sunnah, simple.

 

 

(1) The narration is clear and if you cannot see that, then Can you write what you so?

 

The narrations is indeed clear and infact we will not reject anything unless it can be proven to be against the book and the sunnah, instead as per instructions of the ma'sumeen [as] we either return it back to them or try to understand it from their traditions.

 

The most important word in that hadith is 'Fuqaha' so lets see who is meant by the 'fuqaha' according to the ma'sumeen [as]:

 

And from Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Muhammad Bin Falan Al Rafiqi, who narrates: ‘My cousin brother who was a pious man (reports), Abu Al-Hassan [as] said to him: ‘Go ponder and seek the Ahadith’. I said, ‘From whom?’ He [as] said: ‘From the Fuqaha (Ahadith narrators) of Medina, then present to me the Ahadith’. - Wasail ul Shia, H. 33278

 

 

Muhammad Bin Muhammad Al Numan Al Mufeed in ‘Al Ikhtisaas’ from Jafar Bin Muhammad Bin Qulawayh, from Al Husain Bin Muhammad Bin Aamir, from Ma’aly Ibn Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Jamhour, from Abdul Rahmaan Bin Abu Najraan, from a companions of his, with a chain up to Abu Abd Allah [as]: 

 

Abu Abd Allah [as] said: ‘One who memorises from our [as] Ahadith, forty Ahadith, Allah [azw] will Send him on the Day of Judgement as ‘عالما فقيها’ a Faqih, a knowledgeable one’. - Wasail ul shia, H 33293

 

 

 

And from Muhammad Bin Saeed Al Kashy, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad Bin Hamaad Al Maruzy Al Mahmoudy, with a chain going up to Al Sadiq [as], said: 

 

‘Recognise the status of our [as] Shiites in accordance with how many good narrations they relate from us [as], for we do not consider the ‘الفقيه’ ‘Faqih’ from them to be a Faqih unless they are narrators of Ahadith’. It was said to him [as], ‘Is a believer a narrator of Ahadith?’ He [as] said: ‘He is an understanding one; and the understanding one is a narrator of Ahadith’. - Wasail ul Shia, H. 33453

 

So from the above traditions, it is clear that a 'faqih' will be that who narrates the ahadith of the ma'sumeen [as] and not the one who practices 'ijtihad'. The one who issues a fatwa based on 'Ijtihad' is called a 'Mujtahid'.

 

(2) Past the Full narration here thanks.

 

Sorry I was thinking of another narration, but you are correct, the tradition of Imam 'Askari [as] is fine.

 

 

 

They (people) were following those who had a Connection the Imam, and people asked them to Ask the Imam (a.f) And they would get Replies, So who do we ask today? Who knows best? Confused?

 

 

Yes precisely, they used to refer it back to the Imam [aj] as they had contact with him and give an appropriate reply the Shia.  We must try to look into things for ourselves & ask those who have access to the traditions.

 

 

 

 

I don't know why you are arguing when this narration exists :

 

Imam alaskari (as) says- if there were jurists who preserves himself, guards his religiosity, is against his desires, obedient to his mawla,then the common people in the society should follow him.

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه>>>> فللعوام-ان-يقلدوه

 

referring back to the first point you made, those people who memorize 40 narrations will be looked at as a faqih not expected as a literal one. its like the hadith that says " a big brother is in the fathers position" is he the father? no. will he be looked at as a father? yes. Plus, the hadith says the common people of the society have to follow the faqih,so the imam says every faqih who knows 40 hadiths you should all follow. what if he's a lunatic that knows 40 ahadith.

 

Imam alkhamanei reached a very high level of Islamic studies at 18, your telling me I can compare him to someone who knows 40 narrations? 

 

salams, sorry for the red it just looked cool lol :)

Thank you for your reply, but I am still wondering what is the common meaning when we say "follow a marja" or "do taqleed".  Does that mean follow one person in everything?  Does that mean find out their verdicts on even what we think we already know from our own knowledge of Quran and hadith?  Can more than one person be "followed" or must each person choose only one?  (Why are there differences among the different scholars?) 

 

A bit aside from that question but I am wondering what is the obligation of a follower if he believes a fatwa of his marja to be in violation of Quran or accepted hadith?  Does he obey anyway?  Is he obligated to point out the suspected flaw in judgement to the scholar?  Is he obligated to seek knowledge further from original sources to verify either the marja's or his own mistake?

 

Myself, I seek guidance from Sayyid Sistani just like many other westerners, and I've never seen him rule wrongly, but it could happen.  These scholars spend their entire lives in intense study, but they are still common men, not imams.  They are perfectly capable of making mistakes.  And again, why do different scholars sometimes reach different conclusions on the same issue?

 

this needs a long answer, ill answer soon :)

[The Green Knight]

I see the problem here, with both sides, is the use of absolutes.

 

Of course we should listen to learned people and value their input. Learned people, not a single individual. We call them scholars, but they are in reality quran and hadith scholars, and they aren't comprehensive source of knowledge or thus authority over this subject, let alone other areas of life, like I don't think one of them can teach me how to raise goats or plant wheat because that is other than their field of expertise. To me their consensus in religious problems is what matters more than their individual opinions or even their personal lives.

 

The khums, the 20% of annual surplus profit, personally I give it to widows, orphans, poverty struck people struggling to make an honest living, or anything that would make God happy since I can't find the Imam physically. I keep in mind hadith of Imam Raza (as) where he tells us who to give alms to and to whom not to. I don't pay anything to religious organizations nor I take anything from them. Recently here in Pakistan there was a Shia drama organization of MWM that popped up before elections. When my opinion was asked for I told people that its a drama and all they're looking for is a way to use Shia and make some money of their own if possible or scram if not. And thats what happened. Never again after the first time did MWM contact anybody or fulfill any of its promises.

 

Back to the issue at hand. The Imam left representatives indeed. But have you studied them, who were they. Did he look at their hawza graduation or qualifications or were they the "people who oppose their personal desires" as described in the other hadith? You be the judge. This is not meant to offend people of a hawza and similarly I just can't allow the mullah to dictate everything.

 

Again the point I want to make is that people should take it easy when assigning absolutes. That is unhealthy and problematic. Instead try to determine the correct, God-intended place of each thing in life.

[kadhim]

It's wajib when the person narrates a clear commandment in a hadith. That's because an authentic hadith has authoritative power. Anything beyond that can't rise to the level of wajib to follow. It's simply speculative but well-intentioned advice to consider.

[Hajji87]

This following a marjaa issue is really starting to get on my very last nerve. Lets put it this way. None of these marjaas are infallible. Simple as that. 

 

Saying its wajib to follow one marjaa is wrong and contradictory actually because again; NONE are infallible so you could very well be following the wrong one. All this "my marjaa is better than yours" business is dividing up shias in ludicrous ways. 

 

Islam teaches us to QUESTION, ask questions, study and learn. We're not meant to sit back and depend on marjaas to tell us common sense things. 

 

Heres an example ; McDonalds. Now, everyone knows McDonalds is shady. I mean sometimes people have rats in their food. Common sense; don't eat it. Why do you need a marjaa to explain that? Do you not have a television? Do you not read? 

 

Something being "logical" or "recommended" is different than it being "wajib". Wajib means mandatory. So take back your swearing. 

[AnaAmmar1]

This following a marjaa issue is really starting to get on my very last nerve. Lets put it this way. None of these marjaas are infallible. Simple as that. 

 

Saying its wajib to follow one marjaa is wrong and contradictory actually because again; NONE are infallible so you could very well be following the wrong one. All this "my marjaa is better than yours" business is dividing up shias in ludicrous ways. 

 

Islam teaches us to QUESTION, ask questions, study and learn. We're not meant to sit back and depend on marjaas to tell us common sense things. 

 

Heres an example ; McDonalds. Now, everyone knows McDonalds is shady. I mean sometimes people have rats in their food. Common sense; don't eat it. Why do you need a marjaa to explain that? Do you not have a television? Do you not read? 

 

Something being "logical" or "recommended" is different than it being "wajib". Wajib means mandatory. So take back your swearing. 

 

Taqleed is wajib unless you do ihtiaat(which is very very hard) or become a mujtahid yourself.

i suggest you read this article 

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/taqlid-following-mujtahid

[Hajji87]

Taqleed is wajib unless you do ihtiaat(which is very very hard) or become a mujtahid yourself.

i suggest you read this article 

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/taqlid-following-mujtahid

 

Sorry, again false. Who was this written by?

 

When the Prophet guided us did he make it wajib to follow a marjaa? Give me a hadeeth. Did the ahlul bayt? No. All those quotes and hadeeths presented above ^^^ discuss what we "should" do, not what we "must" do.

 

Again, recommendations and requirements are two very different things. 

 

I myself follow a marjaa, but it is incorrect to say it is wajeb. Also, I use my brain, if my marjaa comes and tells me McDonalds is halal, I wont listen. God gave us minds, lets use them.

 

What bothers me more is the need for each marjaa to claim they are "the chosen" marjaa to follow. Get over it, none of our marjaas are infallible so it's time to admit none are "the chosen" and stop fighting with one another. 

[AnaAmmar1]

No body said they are choosen.They studied for decades and maintain taqwa among other things and then they were called marjaas.

 

"But why should not a party from every section of them (the believers) go forth to become learned in the religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that they may beware?" (9:124)

The Qur'an instructs Muslims to seek guidance from people of learning in matters about which they lack knowledge:

"Question the people of remembrance if you do not know." (21:7)

In a famous hadith, `Umar ibn Hanzalah asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, peace be upon him, about the legality of two Shi'ahs seeking a verdict from an illegitimate ruler in a dispute over a debt or a legacy. The Imam's answer was that it was absolutely forbidden to do so.

Then Ibn Hanzalah asked what the two should do, and the Imam replied: "They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism."

In another tradition from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, this time narrated by Imam Hasan al-`Askari, peace be upon them, he says, "...but if there is anyone among the fuqaha' who is in control over his own self, protects his religion, suppresses his evil desires and is obedient to the commands of his Master, then the people should follow him."

A third hadith is from the Present Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub: "As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."

Edited October 31, 2013 by AnaAmmar1

[Hajji87]

 

No body said they are choosen.They studied for decades and maintain taqwa among other things and then they were called marjaas.

 

"But why should not a party from every section of them (the believers) go forth to become learned in the religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that they may beware?" (9:124)

The Qur'an instructs Muslims to seek guidance from people of learning in matters about which they lack knowledge:

"Question the people of remembrance if you do not know." (21:7)

In a famous hadith, `Umar ibn Hanzalah asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, peace be upon him, about the legality of two Shi'ahs seeking a verdict from an illegitimate ruler in a dispute over a debt or a legacy. The Imam's answer was that it was absolutely forbidden to do so.

Then Ibn Hanzalah asked what the two should do, and the Imam replied: "They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism."

In another tradition from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, this time narrated by Imam Hasan al-`Askari, peace be upon them, he says, "...but if there is anyone among the fuqaha' who is in control over his own self, protects his religion, suppresses his evil desires and is obedient to the commands of his Master, then the people should follow him."

A third hadith is from the Present Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub: "As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."

 

 

Again, as I've stated I follow a marjaa but my issue is with labeling the following of one as wajeb.

 

When you say something is wajeb it means not doing that thing is haram. Not following a marjaa is NOT haram, nor is it something someone will be punished for.

 

Every hadeeth you just gave me says "should", which is great. The Imams (AS) are guiding us as to what we should do, but none of them is wajeb. Even the quotes from the Quran. Because if it were it would be a sin not to fulfill that requirement. 

 

"Should" and "must" are two different things. Should is a suggestion, a recommendation, a preferred route. Not a wajeb. 

[AnaAmmar1]

Not following a marja can cause one to enter in to something haram(because he is unaware of the rules in complex & modern religious matters)

how would you justify that?

[Rohani]

Statement:

We don't need to guess laws, we look for proof from Qur'an & Sunnah.

And Do you know All the Truth in the Quran? The verses Inside out? The Sunnah from top to Bottom? Who do you follow? Your Society? Who do your Society follow?

Statement:

This is only part of the hadith, if you read the full hadith (Which is long) you will find that it has nothing to do with 'taqleed'

(1) The narration is clear and if you cannot see that, then Can you write what you so?

(2) Past the Full narration here thanks.

Statement:

The people didn't do taqleed to the four representatives in the sense the Shia do today.

They (people) were following those who had a Connection the Imam, and people asked them to Ask the Imam (a.f) And they would get Replies, So who do we ask today? Who knows best? Confused?

there is no guessing law ray and independent ijtihad is haram in shia thought. Ayatollahs sistanis fiqh book pretty much is a condensed version of wasael shia which is 33 volumes of hadith. All New fiqh issues are derived from our sources hadith and quran. It is intellectually wajib to follow a marja who is most knowledgeable but as well in our hadith there are a number of aberrations pointing toward it such as imam sadiq (as) telling people to take fatwa from a man. If anyone has gone through slight hawzah courses they would realize why it is wajib as things are not as simple as here is a hadith let's follow it even akhbarism is a bit more complex and requires rijal science and supportive qareena for solitary hadith. Intellectually one knows they need to refer which is what marja lit means reference. Refer to a insightful learned scholar. And everyone is doing taqleed to someone even akhbarism people are doing taqleed to their scholars in thought. It is just nonsense to bash people for what you yourself do. It is not allowed to do taqleed in issues of usool however. Edited October 31, 2013 by Maitham

[kadhim]

Re: "Could enter on to something haram," why would this be so?

 

If something is definitively haram, then there will be primary texts that say it is, and upon a marja quoting these, the person will be bound to whatever they say.

 

If the primary texts don't speak about it, what basis would there be to say it's haram?

 

And why would you think we have a duty in the first place with regards to something that was never talked about?

[PenOfTruth]

This following a marjaa issue is really starting to get on my very last nerve. Lets put it this way. None of these marjaas are infallible. Simple as that. 

 

Saying its wajib to follow one marjaa is wrong and contradictory actually because again; NONE are infallible so you could very well be following the wrong one. All this "my marjaa is better than yours" business is dividing up shias in ludicrous ways. 

 

Islam teaches us to QUESTION, ask questions, study and learn. We're not meant to sit back and depend on marjaas to tell us common sense things. 

 

Heres an example ; McDonalds. Now, everyone knows McDonalds is shady. I mean sometimes people have rats in their food. Common sense; don't eat it. Why do you need a marjaa to explain that? Do you not have a television? Do you not read? 

 

Something being "logical" or "recommended" is different than it being "wajib". Wajib means mandatory. So take back your swearing. 

 

lol bro relax I never said hes my imam. it is not necessary for him to be infallible. even though he looks so :)

did you see this hadith?

 

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه>>>> فللعوام-ان-يقلدوه

 

sorry the imam doesn't agree with you.

 

and if you think its stupid then why the imam left four not infallible messengers to guide his people while he was in his little ghayba.

Edited November 1, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[guest102317]

علماء امة محمد صلی الله علیه و آله کأنبیاء بنی إسرائیل

Edited November 1, 2013 by Jebreil

[PenOfTruth]

Thank you for your reply, but I am still wondering what is the common meaning when we say "follow a marja" or "do taqleed".  Does that mean follow one person in everything?  Does that mean find out their verdicts on even what we think we already know from our own knowledge of Quran and hadith?  Can more than one person be "followed" or must each person choose only one?  (Why are there differences among the different scholars?) 

 

A bit aside from that question but I am wondering what is the obligation of a follower if he believes a fatwa of his marja to be in violation of Quran or accepted hadith?  Does he obey anyway?  Is he obligated to point out the suspected flaw in judgement to the scholar?  Is he obligated to seek knowledge further from original sources to verify either the marja's or his own mistake?

 

Myself, I seek guidance from Sayyid Sistani just like many other westerners, and I've never seen him rule wrongly, but it could happen.  These scholars spend their entire lives in intense study, but they are still common men, not imams.  They are perfectly capable of making mistakes.  And again, why do different scholars sometimes reach different conclusions on the same issue?

 

salam, sorry for the late reply.

 

1) you said : "follow a marja" or "do taqleed".  Does that mean follow one person in everything?  Does that mean find out their verdicts on even what we think we already know from our own knowledge of Quran and hadith?

 

-- good question, you see "what we think" is little, common knowledge, that the maraji know of easily, so we can never disagree on these issues, so when it comes to our problems with jurisprudence and all aspects of islam, we refer to the most knowledgeable. Yes, we follow him an all aspects of jurisprudence, that are very hard and rare situations.

 

2) you said :  Can more than one person be "followed" or must each person choose only one?  (Why are there differences among the different scholars?) 

 

-- this is called "تبعيض"  (tab'eeth) which occurs when if a ruling of your marja is very hard for you to follow or your conditions do not allow you to practice the ruling then in this case, you can refer to another ruling of a another marji. but this situations rarely happens and only when the conditions are very hard to allow you to put the ruling in actions. (when I say hard situations I mean it)

- we are talking about people who have reached the highest level of Islamic studies, they have read all narrations, all laws, all history of islam and every other aspect, how can they not disagree? its normal and should happen.

 

3) you said: A bit aside from that question but I am wondering what is the obligation of a follower if he believes a fatwa of his marja to be in violation of Quran or accepted hadith?  Does he obey anyway?  Is he obligated to point out the suspected flaw in judgement to the scholar?  Is he obligated to seek knowledge further from original sources to verify either the marja's or his own mistake?

 

-- how can a marji's fatwa violate the narrations a the quran, when we say the reached the highest level of studies, we mean it. they cannot easily 'violate the quran and ahadtih'. Plus who are we to say it violates, we ourselves only have little knowledge.

 

4) you said : but they are still common men, not imams.

 

--like the person I just answered said.. many people think they have to be infallible. they are not my imam, nor my prophet nor an angel. they are not infallible and they are not perfect. they are temporary people for us to follow, when the imam (af) comes, the maraji and us will follow him.

 

wasalam.

Edited November 1, 2013 by PenOfTruth

[Mu3lam]

This thread is such a joke.  It's almost as funny as the concept of taqleed itself. 

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mu3lam

[Rohani]

can you intellectual back up why it is a funny concept brother?

Edited November 1, 2013 by Maitham

[Mu3lam]

Can you intellectually back up why it is a funny concept, brother?

I fixed your sentence for you.  I hope you don't mind.  I just find it difficult to have an intellectual conversation with somebody that lacks basic language skills.

 

Yes, I can.  There is no proof that it is waajib, therefore the people that say it is [waajib] are committing the sin of bidaa (not to mention also encouraging other people to do it which is, potentially, even worse than doing it yourself), and I find it to be quite hilarious, especially when the pro-taqleed crowd try to argue for it.  In reality, it's quite sad, but I guess I find pathetic things to be funny occasionally.

 

The fact is, as Muslims, we are required to follow 3 things: Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, The Holy Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, and the Uli l-Amr [imams] (alayhim s-slaaam).  Those that militantly defend taqleed are adding a fourth authority to that list which is a bidaa.

 

There are three main arguments that the pro-taqleed crowd put forward.  I will briefly describe them and shred them to pieces.

 

1. The first argument comes from the Qur'an.  وما أرسلنا من قبلك إلا رجالا نوحي إليهم فاسألوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون  "All the messengers We sent before you were simply men to whom We had given the Revelation: you can ask those who have knowledge if you do not know." [16:43]  I have no problem with this.  If I have a question about Islaam, I ask somebody that has knowledge who then gives me the answer and shows me the reason for his answer from the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth.
2. The second argument is from the Ahadeeth.  There are 2-3 narrations that "support" the concept of taqleed.  All of them come from either al-Askari or ibn al-Askari, so their reliability is highly suspect.  Nonetheless, I can still prove it wrong.  اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله  "In regards to recent occurrences, turn towards the narrators of our words as they are my proof upon you and I am the Hujjatullah." (Wasil ash-Shi`a, Volume 18, Page 101, hadeeth #9)  Again, I do not have a problem with this.  If I have a question, I ask somebody who knows the Qur'aan and Ahadeeth and they give me the answer along with the various references.  Done.
3. The third argument comes from logic.  According to the pro-Taqleed crowd, the above two references clearly say that you must pick a single Ayatullah* (the one whom you believe to be the most knowledgeable) to follow in every last thing he ever says (even if he is clearly wrong) and you can only follow a different Ayatullah if you determine, through unknown means, that he is more knowledgeable.  Also, it is painstakingly clear that the Ayatullah you follow must be alive.  Any previous Ayatullah's who have explained the meaning of the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth are worthless since we have new ones.  I say that anybody that makes this argument is an absolute idiot and illiterate who has not properly understood the above two narrations.

* I have used the word "Ayatullah" very grudgingly.  "Sign of Allah" is a title for the Imams (alayhim s-salaam) and the modern maraji' are not holy and infallible Imams.

[Rohani]

I fixed your sentence for you. I hope you don't mind. I just find it difficult to have an intellectual conversation with somebody that lacks basic language skills.

Yes, I can. There is no proof that it is waajib, therefore the people that say it is [waajib] are committing the sin of bidaa (not to mention also encouraging other people to do it which is, potentially, even worse than doing it yourself), and I find it to be quite hilarious, especially when the pro-taqleed crowd try to argue for it. In reality, it's quite sad, but I guess I find pathetic things to be funny occasionally.

The fact is, as Muslims, we are required to follow 3 things: Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, The Holy Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, and the Uli l-Amr [imams] (alayhim s-slaaam). Those that militantly defend taqleed are adding a fourth authority to that list which is a bidaa.

There are three main arguments that the pro-taqleed crowd put forward. I will briefly describe them and shred them to pieces.

• The first argument comes from the Qur'an. وما أرسلنا من قبلك إلا رجالا نوحي إليهم فاسألوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون "All the messengers We sent before you were simply men to whom We had given the Revelation: you can ask those who have knowledge if you do not know." [16:43] I have no problem with this. If I have a question about Islaam, I ask somebody that has knowledge who then gives me the answer and shows me the reason for his answer from the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth.
• The second argument is from the Ahadeeth. There are 2-3 narrations that "support" the concept of taqleed. All of them come from either al-Askari or ibn al-Askari, so their reliability is highly suspect. Nonetheless, I can still prove it wrong. اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله "In regards to recent occurrences, turn towards the narrators of our words as they are my proof upon you and I am the Hujjatullah." (Wasil ash-Shi`a, Volume 18, Page 101, hadeeth #9) Again, I do not have a problem with this. If I have a question, I ask somebody who knows the Qur'aan and Ahadeeth and they give me the answer along with the various references. Done.
• The third argument comes from logic. According to the pro-Taqleed crowd, the above two references clearly say that you must pick a single Ayatullah* (the one whom you believe to be the most knowledgeable) to follow in every last thing he ever says (even if he is clearly wrong) and you can only follow a different Ayatullah if you determine, through unknown means, that he is more knowledgeable. Also, it is painstakingly clear that the Ayatullah you follow must be alive. Any previous Ayatullah's who have explained the meaning of the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth are worthless since we have new ones. I say that anybody that makes this argument is an absolute idiot and illiterate who has not properly understood the above two narrations.

* I have used the word "Ayatullah" very grudgingly. "Sign of Allah" is a title for the Imams (alayhim s-salaam) and the modern maraji' are not holy and infallible Imams.

what about this "your intellect is a proof hujjat" is a hadith from imam sadiq (as) secondly there are many hadith indicating it being needed and pointing toward referring to scholars. Saying these things do not mean something is mere opinion and not conclusion based on a conditioned aqil. And secondly why would wahid hadith not be accepted and no subsect of 12vers think that only mutawatur hadith are accepted. ,Thirdly I mentioned from our sixth imam telling people to take fatwa from non masoom. Edited November 1, 2013 by Maitham

[haideriam]

I fixed your sentence for you.  I hope you don't mind.  I just find it difficult to have an intellectual conversation with somebody that lacks basic language skills.

 

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Forget the rest of the post, just this bit here is below the belt and a cheap swing across the bows. You should feel ashamed of yourself and apologize.  Hats off to the brother for not even bringing it up in his next post. 

 

(wasalam)

[PenOfTruth]

I fixed your sentence for you.  I hope you don't mind.  I just find it difficult to have an intellectual conversation with somebody that lacks basic language skills.

 

Yes, I can.  There is no proof that it is waajib, therefore the people that say it is [waajib] are committing the sin of bidaa (not to mention also encouraging other people to do it which is, potentially, even worse than doing it yourself), and I find it to be quite hilarious, especially when the pro-taqleed crowd try to argue for it.  In reality, it's quite sad, but I guess I find pathetic things to be funny occasionally.

 

The fact is, as Muslims, we are required to follow 3 things: Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, The Holy Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, and the Uli l-Amr [imams] (alayhim s-slaaam).  Those that militantly defend taqleed are adding a fourth authority to that list which is a bidaa.

 

There are three main arguments that the pro-taqleed crowd put forward.  I will briefly describe them and shred them to pieces.

 

1. The first argument comes from the Qur'an.  وما أرسلنا من قبلك إلا رجالا نوحي إليهم فاسألوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون  "All the messengers We sent before you were simply men to whom We had given the Revelation: you can ask those who have knowledge if you do not know." [16:43]  I have no problem with this.  If I have a question about Islaam, I ask somebody that has knowledge who then gives me the answer and shows me the reason for his answer from the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth.
2. The second argument is from the Ahadeeth.  There are 2-3 narrations that "support" the concept of taqleed.  All of them come from either al-Askari or ibn al-Askari, so their reliability is highly suspect.  Nonetheless, I can still prove it wrong.  اما الحوادث الواقعة فارجعوا الئ رواة حديثنا فانهم حجتي عليكم وانا حجة الله  "In regards to recent occurrences, turn towards the narrators of our words as they are my proof upon you and I am the Hujjatullah." (Wasil ash-Shi`a, Volume 18, Page 101, hadeeth #9)  Again, I do not have a problem with this.  If I have a question, I ask somebody who knows the Qur'aan and Ahadeeth and they give me the answer along with the various references.  Done.
3. The third argument comes from logic.  According to the pro-Taqleed crowd, the above two references clearly say that you must pick a single Ayatullah* (the one whom you believe to be the most knowledgeable) to follow in every last thing he ever says (even if he is clearly wrong) and you can only follow a different Ayatullah if you determine, through unknown means, that he is more knowledgeable.  Also, it is painstakingly clear that the Ayatullah you follow must be alive.  Any previous Ayatullah's who have explained the meaning of the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth are worthless since we have new ones.  I say that anybody that makes this argument is an absolute idiot and illiterate who has not properly understood the above two narrations.

* I have used the word "Ayatullah" very grudgingly.  "Sign of Allah" is a title for the Imams (alayhim s-salaam) and the modern maraji' are not holy and infallible Imams.

 

do you know Arabic?

 

اما من كان من الفقهاء صائنا لنفسه حافظا لدينه مخالفا لهواه مطيعا لامر مولاه>>>> فللعوام-ان-يقلدوه

if you thinks its not important than why did the imam leave four messengers when he was in his first occultation, he just had to be like you only need to believe in god, his prophet and imam but no he left four messengers so all your arguments are weak already. People think they don't need to follow a mari because they are all that, see how you don't even know whats waajib ? that's how we would all be if we didn't follow people more studied than us, we would all be doing islam according to our own basis of knowledge when our knowledge is nothing compared to the maraji. Bro the hadith is there and the imam (af) made it clear by leaving four messengers, you take it or leave it.

waslam shaikhna.

[Al-Hussayni]

^

Yes he left 4 representatives during the minor occultation, but did he leave 'messengers' in the major one?

[PenOfTruth]

^

Yes he left 4 representatives during the minor occultation, but did he leave 'messengers' in the major one?

 

lol is there a difference, stop looking for little things to attack with

[PenOfTruth]

^

Yes he left 4 representatives during the minor occultation, but did he leave 'messengers' in the major one?

 

awkward sorry! didn't read your post properly the first time, good point but his minor occultation was minor, his big one has been for thousands of years, how can he point who to be his representatives if you like, that's why imam alaskari (as) mad it clear.

 

wasalam.

[Abdul Qaim]

Just to add... From Al-Quran:

 

"Question the people of remembrance if you do not know." (21:7)

 

 

The Ahl al-Dhikr are the Imams (as), not your 'ulama ...