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sm9658

Ghadir Khum?

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Im confused as to the reason that this is a controversial day..

As far as my understanding goes, noone disagrees that verses (5:67) and (5:3) were revealed on this day?

And it says "This day i have perfected your religion for you", which is a large statement.. So where does the controversy about this event come from? I understand that people have different interpretations of the world maula but wouldn't the revelation of these verses signify that it is an important event? Is the religion perfected because the prophet did his last hajj and gave a speech, or is it perfected because an Imam was appointed?

 

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Context is different whether someone demands we only look at it amongst the rest of the verse, or whether we do so according to how and when it was revealed, which every scholar of every persuasion says is necessary to understand the Qur'an.

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[5:65] If only the People of the Scripture would believe and ward off (evil), surely We should remit their sins from them and surely We should bring them into Gardens of Delight.

 

[5:66] If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.

 

[5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

 

[5:68] Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.

Edited by igotquestions

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Right, but it was revealed at Ghadir Khumm in which there was ZERO talk about other revelations, so why was it revealed? Are you not aware that both Sunni and Shia scholars clearly state that the actual context of moment of The Prophet's life in which it was revealed is important?

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^... Last time I checked Shi'i Islam doesn't depend upon the Ahadith of other sects... That's like asking a Muslim to prove the Trinity from the Qur'an.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن ابيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن زرارة والفضيل بن يسار، وبكير بن أعين ومحمد بن مسلم وبريد بن معاوية وأبي الجارود جميعا عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: أمر الله عز وجل رسوله بولاية علي وأنزل عليه " إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة " وفرض ولاية أولي الامر، فلم يدروا ما هي، فأمر الله محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله أن يفسر لهم الولاية، كما فسر لهم الصلاة، والزكاة والصوم والحج، فلما أتاه ذلك من الله، ضاق بذلك صدر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وتخوف أن يرتدوا عن دينهم وأن يكذبوه فضاق صدره وراجع ربه عز وجل فأوحى الله عز وجل إليه " يا أيها الرسول بلغ ما أنزل إليك من ربك وإن لم تفعل فما بلغت رسالته والله يعصمك من الناس " فصدع بأمر الله تعالى ذكره فقام بولاية علي عليه السلام يوم غدير خم، فنادى الصلاة جامعة وأمر الناس أن يبلغ الشاهد الغائب. - قال عمر بن اذينة: قالوا جميعا غير أبي الجارود - وقال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: وكانت الفريضة تنزل بعد الفريضة الاخرى وكانت الولاية آخر الفرائض، فأنزل الله عز وجل " اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم وأتممت عليكم نعمتي " قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: يقول الله عز وجل: لا انزل عليكم بعد هذه فريضة، قد أكملت لكم الفرائض.

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir [a] said, about the Event of Ghadir:

Obedience to `Ali was an order from Allah to His Messenger, and He revealed upon him, “Verily your guardian is Allah, His messenger, and those who believed – who stand in prayer and give the zakat…” (5:55). And He made obedience to the Possessors of the Command (ulu ‘l-amr) obligatory, and they did not understand what it was; so Allah ordered Muhammad to interpret [and clarify] this obedience to them, just as he interpreted prayer (salat), alms-giving (zakat), fasting (sawm), and Hajj. When Allah gave that [order] to him, the chest of the Messenger of Allah tightened, and he feared that they would apostatize from their religion and bely him – so his chest tightened. He consulted his Lord, so Allah inspired to him, “O Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not preach, it will be as though you have not conveyed My Message, and Allah will protect you from the people”. (5:67) So he executed the command of Allah and declared the wilaya of `Ali on the day of Ghadeer Khumm. He called for a congregational prayer and commanded the people to bear testimony and inform the absent. And an obligation would be revealed one after the other; and the wilaya was the final obligation, so Allah revealed, “Today I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favour…” (5:3) Allah said, "I will not reveal to you any obligation after this – I have completed for you the obligations." (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 753)

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And Shia hadiths aren't hujjah upon Sunni's. Guess we're stuck.  :donno:

Looks like it. I guess your stuck believing the Prophet [sawa] commanded tens of thousands of people to be `Ali's 'friend' cos you know, no body understood that from the last 23 years :lol:

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Even though I don't believe mawla to mean friend in this case, but okay.

What do you believe it means?

But I guess you believe the early shia had the shirk beliefs of Imami Ithna Ashari Shia's of today. No body understood that from the last 23 years.  :dry:

What? :huh:

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Can you produce an authentic Sunni hadith stating it was revealed at Khumm? 

Hadith Alghadir was narrated by 120 companions and hundreds if not thousands of Tabi'een. It is in all Sunni books you ignorant child, pick a book and read.

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/77175-hadith-al-ghadeer-with-sunni-refrences/

 

http://www.hadith.net/en/n3360-e27975.html

 

http://www.najaf.org/english/book/12/58.htm

 

http://www.najaf.org/english/book/12/56.htm

 

http://www.al-hadi.us/religion/research/ahlulbayt/9.html

 

http://www.coiradio.com/library/library/beliefs/al_murajat/index.htm

 

My google seems to prefer Shia sites but I am sure sunni google will just do fine. Those who are rejecting this hadith are rejecting 2 verses and 2 hadiths :

In this occasion there was a verse that was revealed before the event, then hadith Ali is the Mawla of every mo'min , then the hadith of thaqalayin and lastly there was a verse that was revealed afterwards.

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I don't care what is your definition of Mawla... but whatever the meaning is. Imam Ali (as) is our Mawla. Nobody can stop us calling him Mawla. Because Prophet Muhammad (pbuh and his progeny) called him Mawla. 

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(salam)   :)

 

From the Prophet (blessings of Allah be upon him and his family), in his address on the Day of Ghadir: “{Ali is the exegesis (Tafsir) of the book of Allah and the one who calls others to it. Verily, that which is permitted and forbidden is more than what I can explain to you; what I command you as permitted and forbid you as prohibited, is all from one position. I was commanded to take your allegiance and your pledge to accept what I brought from Allah, the Exalted, regarding {Ali, the commander of the believers, and the Imams after him. O’ People! Ponder and understand the verses (of the Quran), observe those that are clear and do not follow those that are unclear; for by Allah no one can explain to you its limitations or clarify its meanings except the one whose hand I am holding (meaning Imam {Ali).”

 

Wasa’il ash-Shia, Volume 18, Page 142, Hadith 43

 

(wasalam) 

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Can you produce an authentic Sunni hadith stating it was revealed at Khumm? 

 

And Shia hadiths aren't hujjah upon Sunni's. Guess we're stuck.  :donno:

 

Although as stated earlier,  Sunni text is not binding upon us Shias but still for the sake of argument, one can refer to Tafseer by Imam Ibn Abi Hatim. 

 

 Tafsir ibn Abi Hatim, Volume 4 page 1172:

 
 حدثنا أبي ثنا عثمان بن خرزاد ثنا إسماعيل بن زكريا ثنا علي بن عابس عن الأعمش  وابي الحجاب عن عطية العوفي عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال : نزلت هذه الآية يا أيها الرسول بلغ ما انزل اليك من ربك في علي بن أبي طالب.
 
 Narrated my father from Uthman bin Kharzad from Ismail bin Zakaria from Ali bin Abes from al-Amash and Abi al-Hajeb from  Attya al-Aufi from Abu Saeed al-Khudari who said: This verse {O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord} has been revealed about Ali bin Abi Talib.
 
Instead of entering into authenticity or otherwise of the chain, it should be known that the chain was authentic at least in the eyes of Imam of Ahle Sunnah, the author of this tafseer because whatever he collected in his book was sahih in his eyes. We read in Volume 1 page 14:
 
سألني جماعة من اخواني اخراج تفسير القرآن مختصرا بأصح الأسانيد…..فأجبتهم إلى ملتمسهم وبالله التوفيق
 
“A group of my brothers requested that I write a brief commentary of the Quran with the most Sahih chains…. I therefore responded to their request and Allah grants success”.   

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Even though I don't believe mawla to mean friend in this case, but okay. But I guess you believe the early shia had the shirk beliefs of Imami Ithna Ashari Shia's of today. No body understood that from the last 23 years.  :dry:

 

 

(1) Shia Ithna Ashari is the same as it always has been. And we do not call other people Kaffir. Please Educate your Self by reading Authentic Context.

(2) On the day of Ghadeer Khum, The prophet (s) did not mean Friend. He meant Mastership, he did not stand on the top of the hill and tell over 100,000 (According to Authentic Traditions) and tell that Imam Ali (a.s) is my friend, why would you stand up on the middle of the hottest day to tell everyone that I have a Friend? What kind of Excuse is that?

    

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Nobody can deny the event of Ghadir Khumm, which has been reported in over 185 books of Sunnis including the likes of Tabarri and Ahmad bin Hanbal.  It is the most mu[Edited Out]tir (mostly related chains) hadith at the time of Prophet.

 

Some sunnis have went to change the meaning of mowla meaning friend, but why would Prophet (pbuh) stop more than 100,000 sahaba in the middle of desert and Allah reveal this ayah first

 

[5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

 

was it to reveal that Ali was the friend of Prophet (pbuh)?


http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/books.asp

 

for Books that mention Ghadir Khumm you can click the above link

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Nobody can deny the event of Ghadir Khumm, which has been reported in over 185 books of Sunnis including the likes of Tabarri and Ahmad bin Hanbal.  It is the most mu[Edited Out]tir (mostly related chains) hadith at the time of Prophet.

 

Some sunnis have went to change the meaning of mowla meaning friend, but why would Prophet (pbuh) stop more than 100,000 sahaba in the middle of desert and Allah reveal this ayah first

 

[5:67] O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

 

was it to reveal that Ali was the friend of Prophet (pbuh)?

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/books.asp

 

for Books that mention Ghadir Khumm you can click the above link

 

The verse wasn't revealed in Ghadir Khum so your argument is wrong. The verse was revealed on the day of Arafah in Makkah. This is according to Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other authentic sources. 

 

Sunnis don't deny the Ghadir Khum:

 

Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani

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The verse wasn't revealed in Ghadir Khum so your argument is wrong. The verse was revealed on the day of Arafah in Makkah. This is according to Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other authentic sources. 

 

Sunnis don't deny the Ghadir Khum:

 

Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]

 

Although you can deny about that Quranic verse but here are the list of sunni books regarding the following verse was revealed : "O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and

Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Quran 5:67).

Some of Sunni references confirming that the revelation of the above verse of Quran was right before the speech of Prophet in Ghadir Khum:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67,

v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn

Azib, and Muhammad Ibn Ali.

(2) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of

Atiyyah and Abu Sa'id al Khudri.

(3) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authorities

Abu Sa'id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

(4) al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

(5) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

(6) Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

(7) Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

(8) Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

(9) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

(10) Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

(11) Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

 

further this topic has been discussed here regarding the verse and Ghadir. http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234981753-ghadir-khum-in-authentic-sunni-books/

 

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Although you can deny about that Quranic verse but here are the list of sunni books regarding the following verse was revealed : "O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and

Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Quran 5:67).

Some of Sunni references confirming that the revelation of the above verse of Quran was right before the speech of Prophet in Ghadir Khum:

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under commentary of verse 5:67,

v12, pp 49-50, narrated on the authorities of Ibn Abbas, al-Bara Ibn

Azib, and Muhammad Ibn Ali.

(2) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi, p50, narrated on the authorities of

Atiyyah and Abu Sa'id al Khudri.

(3) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authorities

Abu Sa'id Khudri and Abu Rafi.

(4) al-Fusool al Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki al-Makki, p24

(5) Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz al-Suyuti, under commentary of verse 5:67

(6) Fathul Qadir, by al-Shawkani, under commentary of verse 5:67

(7) Fathul Bayan, by Hasan Khan, under commentary of verse 5:67

(8) Shaykh Muhi al-Din al-Nawawi, under commentary of verse 5:67

(9) al-Sirah al-Halabiyah, by Noor al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p301

(10) Umdatul Qari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by al-Ayni

(11) Tafsir al-Nisaboori, v6, p194

 

further this topic has been discussed here regarding the verse and Ghadir. http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234981753-ghadir-khum-in-authentic-sunni-books/

 

 

The link I posted discusses and answers these.

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The link I posted discusses and answers these.

 

 

(1) have read it before, and the Argument is based on how Shia view things, and What Irony is that They provided not proof of certain narration what are Actually Authentic.

(2) Its not a Refute, its Arguments based on Assumptions.

(3) Refuted also on Shiapen.

   

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The verse wasn't revealed in Ghadir Khum so your argument is wrong. The verse was revealed on the day of Arafah in Makkah. This is according to Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other authentic sources.

Sunnis don't deny the Ghadir Khum:

Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]

You've accused me, on the Ulul Amre thread, of never getting to the point. I've responded to your post but haven't got a reply from you. Do you just accuse and then run from it??? I'm still waiting for you to address the matter.

The verse wasn't revealed in Ghadir Khum so your argument is wrong. The verse was revealed on the day of Arafah in Makkah. This is according to Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and other authentic sources.

Sunnis don't deny the Ghadir Khum:

Hadith of Ghadir Khumm [A Sunni Perspective]

You've accused me, on the Ulul Amre thread, of never getting to the point. I've responded to your post but haven't got a reply from you. Do you just accuse and then run from it??? I'm still waiting for you to address the matter.

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Ameen

 

give link or post number of your answer on Olel Amr thread? 

 

 

I've Rejected it Somewhere On "Appointed a Successor" thread. I find it Rather Ironic, How people Claim "I don't know" Where is the post?" very Strange?

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