Fake Jesus

PenOfTruth · October 22, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk (skip to 19:40 for his interview)

I know we agree he's fake. but lets say someone like him was actually jesus (as) and we lived in his time, would you believe he is god that chose to come as human? I mean, look at him- hes human, like me and you. my mind cant understand why people would believe that? why would a god even chose to come with the attributes of a human being? that he created.. is not he too great for that? I know I said this a thousand times before but I never got a satisfying answer as to why he would lower himself to his own creation. If I saw jesus (as) in front of me, and he told me that he is god and 3 in one, I wouldn't believe when he is standing there with a face and a body. My minds going to explode. Ive watched that video more than once and these thoughts come to mind. And the guy interviewing actually called him "the word or perhaps flesh of god" is he not a creation that needs food and drink to survive, a brain to think about how he will answer the question, eyes to see the interviewer? to come himself to spread the message? how can the creator of the heavens and earth put himself in that position?

Some Christians call him fake but would they say the same thing if they lived in jesus's (as) time and saw what they saw in the video?

waslam.

Edited October 22, 2013 by PenOfTruth

saleh.s · October 22, 2013

as salam alaikum

well if you look in history the real christians never belived that jesus was god and that there was another prophet comeing that was like prophet musa pbuh which was prophet muhammad pbuh may Allah be pleased with him.

when the romans made the catholic church thats when they started saying that prophet jesus pbuh was god astaghfirullah and the other christian that used to go against the catholic church and say he was not god were killed.

the torah and the bible have been soo manipulated by people that want it there way and there ideology.

**Son of Placid** · October 23, 2013

I would suggest you stop racking your brain over this unless this is the one thing that keeps you from becoming a Christian. Then again, I'm living proof you don't have to believe Jesus is God to be a Christian.

Ali Musaaa :) · October 23, 2013

We had a lunatic in Australia who also claimed to be Jesus [a] not too long ago. May God protect the weak minded from falling for these peoples deception.

Mu3lam · October 23, 2013

We had a lunatic in Australia who also claimed to be Jesus [a] not too long ago. May God protect the weak minded from falling for these peoples deception.

To be fair, most of his contemporaries thought that Jesus was a false Messiah, so it's almost as if they are carrying on a proud tradition. Thankfully, though, both Christians and Muslims know how Jesus will return to Earth and these impostors do not meet such criteria.

To the OP, when I first read the title of that video, I thought it said Jesus of Suburbia [a sacreligious song by Green Day]. Thankfully, I reread it.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Mu3lam

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

We had a lunatic in Australia who also claimed to be Jesus [a] not too long ago. May God protect the weak minded from falling for these peoples deception.

haha I heard about that too, there are many really, even the fake mahdis get me laughing

I would suggest you stop racking your brain over this unless this is the one thing that keeps you from becoming a Christian. Then again, I'm living proof you don't have to believe Jesus is God to be a Christian.

you don't? please explain :)

Edited October 23, 2013 by PenOfTruth

Little_Socrates · October 23, 2013

(salam)

This is very mind boggling. Another thing I cannot seem to get my head around is Virgin Mary and how Jesus was conceived with a Single mother. Is there an explanation? :)

(wasalam)

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

(salam)

This is very mind boggling. Another thing I cannot seem to get my head around is Virgin Mary and how Jesus was conceived with a Single mother. Is there an explanation? :)

(wasalam)

what do you mean? its god's miracle.

Edited October 23, 2013 by PenOfTruth

Little_Socrates · October 23, 2013

what do you mean? its god's miracle.

(salam)

Well yes, I agree that it was Gods miracle. But like, why did God choose Virgin Mary to Jesus and not someone else?

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

(salam)

Well yes, I agree that it was Gods miracle. But like, why did God choose Virgin Mary to Jesus and not someone else?

because as the prophet (saw) said, she was the woman and mistress of her time. she gave her life away, alongside food, a husband and children all to Allah swt. who better?

Edited October 23, 2013 by PenOfTruth

Ali Musaaa :) · October 23, 2013

Surah al-Imran:

29. Say [Prophet], ‘God knows every- thing that is in your hearts, whether you conceal or reveal it; He knows everything in the heavens and earth; God has power over all things.’

30. On the Day when every soul finds all the good it has done present before it, it will wish all the bad it has done to be far, far away. God warns you to beware of Him, but God is compassionate towards His servants.

31. Say, ‘If you love God, follow me, and God will love you and forgive you your sins; God is most forgiving, most merciful.’

32. Say, ‘Obey God and the Messenger,’ but if they turn away, [know that] God does not love those who ignore [His commands].

33. God chose Adam, Noah, Abraham’s family, and the family of 'Imran, over all other people,

34. in one line of descent– God hears and knows all.

35. 'Imran’s wife said, ‘Lord, I have dedicated what is growing in my womb entirely to You; so accept this from me. You are the One who hears and knows all,’

36. but when she gave birth, she said, ‘My Lord! I have given birth to a girl’– God knew best what she had given birth to: the male is not like the female–‘ I name her Mary and I commend her and her offspring to Your protection from the rejected Satan.’

37. Her Lord graciously accepted her and made her grow in goodness, and entrusted her to the charge of Zachariah.

Whenever Zachariah went in to see her in her sanctuary, he found her supplied with provisions. He said, ‘Mary, how is it you have these provisions?’ and she said, ‘They are from God: God provides limitlessly for whoever He will.’

38. There and then Zachariah prayed to his Lord, saying, ‘Lord, from Your grace grant me virtuous offspring: You hear every prayer.’

39. The angels called out to him, while he stood praying in the sanctuary, ‘God gives you news of John, confirming a Word from God. He will be noble and chaste, a prophet, one of the righteous.’

40. He said, ‘My Lord, how can I have a son when I am so old and my wife is barren?’ [An angel] said, ‘It will be so: God does whatever He will.’

41. He said, ‘My Lord, give me a sign.’ ‘Your sign,’ [the angel] said, ‘is that you will not communicate with anyone for three days, except by gestures. Remember your Lord often; celebrate His glory in the evening and at dawn.’

42. The angels said to Mary: ‘Mary, God has chosen you and made you pure: He has truly chosen you above all women.

43. Mary, be devout to your Lord, prostrate yourself in worship, bow down with those who pray.’

44. This is an account of things beyond your knowledge that We reveal to you [Muhammad]: you were not present among them when they cast lots to see which of them should take charge of Mary, you were not present with them when they argued [about her].

Edited October 23, 2013 by Ali Musaaa :)

Little_Socrates · October 23, 2013

because as the prophet (saw) said, she was the woman and mistress of her time. she gave her life away, alongside food, a husband and children all to Allah swt. who better?

Yes, that is true. Thanks. :)

Surah al-Imran:
29. Say [Prophet], ‘God knows every- thing that is in your hearts, whether you conceal or reveal it; He knows everything in the heavens and earth; God has power over all things.’
30. On the Day when every soul finds all the good it has done present before it, it will wish all the bad it has done to be far, far away. God warns you to beware of Him, but God is compassionate towards His servants.
31. Say, ‘If you love God, follow me, and God will love you and forgive you your sins; God is most forgiving, most merciful.’
32. Say, ‘Obey God and the Messenger,’ but if they turn away, [know that] God does not love those who ignore [His commands].
33. God chose Adam, Noah, Abraham’s family, and the family of 'Imran, over all other people,
34. in one line of descent– God hears and knows all.
35. 'Imran’s wife said, ‘Lord, I have dedicated what is growing in my womb entirely to You; so accept this from me. You are the One who hears and knows all,’
36. but when she gave birth, she said, ‘My Lord! I have given birth to a girl’– God knew best what she had given birth to: the male is not like the female–‘ I name her Mary and I commend her and her offspring to Your protection from the rejected Satan.’
37. Her Lord graciously accepted her and made her grow in goodness, and entrusted her to the charge of Zachariah.
Whenever Zachariah went in to see her in her sanctuary, he found her supplied with provisions. He said, ‘Mary, how is it you have these provisions?’ and she said, ‘They are from God: God provides limitlessly for whoever He will.’
38. There and then Zachariah prayed to his Lord, saying, ‘Lord, from Your grace grant me virtuous offspring: You hear every prayer.’
39. The angels called out to him, while he stood praying in the sanctuary, ‘God gives you news of John, confirming a Word from God. He will be noble and chaste, a prophet, one of the righteous.’
40. He said, ‘My Lord, how can I have a son when I am so old and my wife is barren?’ [An angel] said, ‘It will be so: God does whatever He will.’
41. He said, ‘My Lord, give me a sign.’ ‘Your sign,’ [the angel] said, ‘is that you will not communicate with anyone for three days, except by gestures. Remember your Lord often; celebrate His glory in the evening and at dawn.’
42. The angels said to Mary: ‘Mary, God has chosen you and made you pure: He has truly chosen you above all women.
43. Mary, be devout to your Lord, prostrate yourself in worship, bow down with those who pray.’
44. This is an account of things beyond your knowledge that We reveal to you [Muhammad]: you were not present among them when they cast lots to see which of them should take charge of Mary, you were not present with them when they argued [about her].

Thank you Brother Ali for this. :)

Ali Musaaa :) · October 23, 2013

^... You're welcome bro ^_^

Ali Musaaa :) · October 23, 2013

you don't? please explain :)

Ibn Placid is a Unitarian, so is Daddy Placid :P Essentially, these chaps, Unitarians, don't believe Jesus [a] is God. Unfortunately, some Christians call these people heretics. Yes, anyone else see the irony? Pagan man worshiper's calling Unitarians, who deny Jesus is God, 'heretics'...

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

Ibn Placid is a Unitarian, so is Daddy Placid :P Essentially, these chaps, Unitarians, don't believe Jesus [a] is God. Unfortunately, some Christians call these people heretics. Yes, anyone else see the irony? Pagan man worshiper's calling Unitarians, who deny Jesus is God, 'heretics'...

ibn placid LOL

so what to they say jesus (as) is?

Ali Musaaa :) · October 23, 2013

ibn placid LOL

so what to they say jesus (as) is?

They say he is Ibnullah.

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

hmm.. in what terms? literal son? or what?

Ali Musaaa :) · October 23, 2013

hmm.. in what terms? literal son? or what?

Let's wait for Sir Ibn Placid to elaborate? :P

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

Let's wait for Sir Ibn Placid to elaborate? :P

ee wallah ill wait for ibn placid :)

Faithfully999 · October 23, 2013

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of God (Allaah), The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum, The Peace (of Allaah) Be Upon You, everyone.

To quote knowledgeable Sufi's: "You are not God. God Is You." I would think that this is so concerning Prophet Isa [Jesus, PBUH].

Wa salaam. Faithfully999

**placid** · October 23, 2013

Aww yes, --- Placid.

The dictionary meaning of placid is, --- serene, undisturbed, quiet.

The first great Sermon that Jesus preached to the thousands on the hillside is in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Beginning with the Beatitudes, which teach things like this:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, (the humble)
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
⁴Blessed are those who mourn,
    For they shall be comforted.
⁵Blessed are the meek,
    For they shall inherit the earth.
⁶Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    For they shall be filled.
⁷Blessed are the merciful,
    For they shall obtain mercy.
⁸Blessed are the pure in heart,
    For they shall see God.
⁹Blessed are the peacemakers,
    For they shall be called sons of God.
¹⁰Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

¹¹“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.

¹²Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

So I guess your ridicule and persecution is adding to the rewards in heaven.

I have explained before that Son of Placid and myself, are neither Trinitarians nor Unitarians, --- we study the Scriptures as they are written and we follow the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels, --- also the establishment of the first Church in the Book of Acts, and the teaching letters of Paul, James, Peter and John, to the first Churches, and Christians, who were persecuted for their Faith at that time.

--- We don’t have any convenient label, --- I guess we are just, Evangelicals.

I just finished the topic on ‘Trinity, Not in the Bible, but in another Book,’ (the Quran).

--- I have never studied Unitarianism, so I don’t know what they believe.

PenOfTruth · October 23, 2013

Aww yes, --- Placid.

The dictionary meaning of placid is, --- serene, undisturbed, quiet.
The first great Sermon that Jesus preached to the thousands on the hillside is in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. Beginning with the Beatitudes, which teach things like this:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, (the humble)
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
⁴Blessed are those who mourn,
    For they shall be comforted.
⁵Blessed are the meek,
    For they shall inherit the earth.
⁶Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    For they shall be filled.
⁷Blessed are the merciful,
    For they shall obtain mercy.
⁸Blessed are the pure in heart,
    For they shall see God.
⁹Blessed are the peacemakers,
    For they shall be called sons of God.
¹⁰Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
¹¹“Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
¹²Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

So I guess your ridicule and persecution is adding to the rewards in heaven.

I have explained before that Son of Placid and myself, are neither Trinitarians nor Unitarians, --- we study the Scriptures as they are written and we follow the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels, --- also the establishment of the first Church in the Book of Acts, and the teaching letters of Paul, James, Peter and John, to the first Churches, and Christians, who were persecuted for their Faith at that time.

--- We don’t have any convenient label, --- I guess we are just, Evangelicals.

I just finished the topic on ‘Trinity, Not in the Bible, but in another Book,’ (the Quran).
--- I have never studied Unitarianism, so I don’t know what they believe.

so what is your view on jesus (as), what do you believe he is?

Mu3lam · October 23, 2013

Unfortunately, some Christians call these people heretics. Yes, anyone else see the irony? Pagan man worshiper's calling Unitarians, who deny Jesus is God, 'heretics'...

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

They are heretics by definition.

--- I have never studied Unitarianism, so I don’t know what they believe.

They are a weird group. My former German teacher was a Unitarian. Her Church had Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and even a Wiccan group. They believe that all religions are paths to God, apparently. Strong supporter of state recognized sodomy.

**placid** · October 23, 2013

Hi Pen,

I watched the video and we learn very little from it, and certainly nothing about God.

Naturally the leader is a man, --- who has found a place of tranquility by withdrawing from society, and out of the midst of Chaos. --- It may have been a revelation to him, but he really said very little about the state of mind that comes from the disciplines of his peaceful life. --- Notice, no TV, no cell phones. --- It is perhaps far enough away that nothing would work, so that would ‘shut out the world.’

--- The emphasis was on a peaceful life, with no faith or hope of salvation, --- so it is by no means a gateway to heaven.

I wonder how you relate your thoughts to this video

Quote: If I saw jesus in front of me, and he told me that he is god and 3 in one, I wouldn't believe when he is standing there with a face and a body. My minds going to explode. Ive watched that video more than once and these thoughts come to mind.

I have said many times that Jesus was not God, === Jesus was a Man, but He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God, --- and the ‘three in one’ is a concept that is not understood by most.

It seems to be your ‘hobby horse’ in making light of Christians, so maybe we can find a ‘hitching post’ for it.

In the topic on Trinity, I said that ‘Trinity’ is not mentioned in the Bible but is mentioned in the Quran.

--- So if it is in the Quran you should believe it, shouldn’t you?

It is mentioned properly here in Surah 4:

171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (only) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.

Now what does that say? --- Jesus the Son of Mary was only an Apostle or Messenger of God, --- and His (God’s) Word, which He (God) bestowed on Mary, --- and a Spirit from Him (God).

So you see there are “Three” mentioned, --- God Himself, --- The Wore (Logos, the creative power of God), --- and the Holy Spirit of God.

--- it goes on to say, Don’t say “Trinity” --- God is One God.

That is what the Quran says. --- Isn’t that written quite clearly, (even though it is a mystery of God.) --- It says that Jesus was the Messenger of God, --- His Word --- and His Spirit

1John 5:7 says, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

You see, it says the same, --- The Father (God) --- The Word (Logos) --- and the Holy Spirit, --- and these Three, that are One

Someone said, ‘God is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.’ --- And someone else said ‘The Three of God are of One Essense, but there are three Manifestations.’

--- God the Father of all is the Master Designer, --- The Word, Logos, is the creator of the Design, --- And the Holy Spirit gives Life.

Consider the first man Adam, --- God said, ‘Let us make man,’ --- So the Word, (through whom all things were created) ‘formed man from the dust of the earth,’ --- and God breathed in His Holy Spirit, --- “And man became a living soul.”

--- Notice, that Jesus was not one of the three? --- But notice this verse in Surah 3:

59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: “Be!” and he is.

So Jesus was the Servant and Vessel on earth that God used to bring salvation.

Next I will answer your question:

Quote: --- so what is your view on jesus , what do you believe he is?

Placid

**Son of Placid** · October 24, 2013

Let's wait for Sir Ibn Placid to elaborate? :P

Was that the Sir, or the ibn you were asking for?

Ali Musaaa :) · October 24, 2013

Was that the Sir, or the ibn you were asking for?

'Twas you good sir!

**Son of Placid** · October 24, 2013

Yeah, there was a fake jesus on the south shore of Montreal. He had a sword and hacked at the grocery cart blocks to prove it.

Original question, if I lived in the time of Jesus. I'm a gentile, I wouldn't have heard anything until Paul showed up on the scene.

If "Jesus: showed up today? Simple...John wrote in his letter, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

PenOfTruth · October 24, 2013

Hi Pen,

I watched the video and we learn very little from it, and certainly nothing about God.
Naturally the leader is a man, --- who has found a place of tranquility by withdrawing from society, and out of the midst of Chaos. --- It may have been a revelation to him, but he really said very little about the state of mind that comes from the disciplines of his peaceful life. --- Notice, no TV, no cell phones. --- It is perhaps far enough away that nothing would work, so that would ‘shut out the world.’
--- The emphasis was on a peaceful life, with no faith or hope of salvation, --- so it is by no means a gateway to heaven.

I wonder how you relate your thoughts to this video
Quote: If I saw jesus in front of me, and he told me that he is god and 3 in one, I wouldn't believe when he is standing there with a face and a body. My minds going to explode. Ive watched that video more than once and these thoughts come to mind.

I have said many times that Jesus was not God, === Jesus was a Man, but He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God, --- and the ‘three in one’ is a concept that is not understood by most.
It seems to be your ‘hobby horse’ in making light of Christians, so maybe we can find a ‘hitching post’ for it.
In the topic on Trinity, I said that ‘Trinity’ is not mentioned in the Bible but is mentioned in the Quran.
--- So if it is in the Quran you should believe it, shouldn’t you?
It is mentioned properly here in Surah 4:
171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (only) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.

Now what does that say? --- Jesus the Son of Mary was only an Apostle or Messenger of God, --- and His (God’s) Word, which He (God) bestowed on Mary, --- and a Spirit from Him (God).
So you see there are “Three” mentioned, --- God Himself, --- The Wore (Logos, the creative power of God), --- and the Holy Spirit of God.
--- it goes on to say, Don’t say “Trinity” --- God is One God.
That is what the Quran says. --- Isn’t that written quite clearly, (even though it is a mystery of God.) --- It says that Jesus was the Messenger of God, --- His Word --- and His Spirit

1John 5:7 says, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
You see, it says the same, --- The Father (God) --- The Word (Logos) --- and the Holy Spirit, --- and these Three, that are One
Someone said, ‘God is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.’ --- And someone else said ‘The Three of God are of One Essense, but there are three Manifestations.’
--- God the Father of all is the Master Designer, --- The Word, Logos, is the creator of the Design, --- And the Holy Spirit gives Life.
Consider the first man Adam, --- God said, ‘Let us make man,’ --- So the Word, (through whom all things were created) ‘formed man from the dust of the earth,’ --- and God breathed in His Holy Spirit, --- “And man became a living soul.”

--- Notice, that Jesus was not one of the three? --- But notice this verse in Surah 3:
59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: “Be!” and he is.

So Jesus was the Servant and Vessel on earth that God used to bring salvation.

Next I will answer your question:
Quote: --- so what is your view on jesus , what do you believe he is?

Placid

hi placid, always nice talking.

1) you said : I have said many times that Jesus was not God, === Jesus was a Man, but He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God.

- some Christians told me they do, so I was pointing at them.

2) you said :

It is mentioned properly here in Surah 4:

171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (only) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him.

I didn't understand what you said after it but the verse says :

- "His Word, which He bestowed on Mary" which means his miracle in terms of her giving a virgin birth.

- "Spirit proceeding from Him" is referring to his angel that came down.

3) you said : 1John 5:7 says, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

You see, it says the same, --- The Father (God) --- The Word (Logos) --- and the Holy Spirit, --- and these Three, that are One.

- is it the same? in the verse before, the word was the miracle, the spirit was his angel and god is one.

4) you said : So Jesus was the Servant and Vessel on earth that God used to bring salvation.

that's like us saying he was a prophet of god. so what is the difference between us in this issue?

thanks :)

Ali Musaaa :) · October 24, 2013

It has also been understood by some Scholars that the title 'Word' refers to Jesus being the command of God 'Be' and he was. Kun faya kun, essentially.

**Abu Hadi** · October 24, 2013

On John 5:7 from my book

The other verse which must be treated seperately and the most direct reference in the New Testement to

the concept of the trinity is 1 John 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these

three are one

1 John 5:7 (KJV)

So the concept of 'three' as relating to God only occurs once in the entire Bible. Again, these are the

words of Paul only as neither Jesus himself, any disciple, or any other author of the New Testement

repeat this concept in any form. So who exactly are the 'three' that are one ? It depends on which

version of the Bible you are looking at. In the King James Version, it says 'the Father, the Word, and the

Holy Ghost'.

In the King James Version, in 1 John 5:6 the 'trinity' passage starts as

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:6

So in this version, the water and the blood is mentioned, but when it comes to the trinity, it is the 'Word'

that is the part of the trinity.Now in the New International Version, which is a later interpretation of the New Testement we find

in 1 John 5:6

This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by

water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth

1 John 5:6

Then when we move onto 1 John 5:7, we find something totally different than what is in the King

James Version

For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement

1 John 5:7 (KJV)

In the King James Version, we find the water and the blood mentioned, but these are not

included in the 'Three that bear record'. In the New International Version, both the water and the blood

are included and the Spirit but God the Father is not included.

So according to the King James Version,

the three are the 'Father, Word, Holy Ghost', BUT according to the New International Version, the three

are the 'water, blood, and Spirit'. So if Jesus came by water and blood, then Jesus is included twice,

God the Father is not included, and the Spirit is included. Also, according to the King James Version,

the three are 'one' BUT according to the New International Version, they are 'in agreement'. So there is

a big difference between being 'one' and being 'in agreement'. You can agree with someone and yet not

be 'one' with them as in the same person or entity.

Another thing to note in 1 John 5:7(KJV) is that capital letters are not used. So Christians say

Jesus is 'Son of God' and this is different than 'son of God' because of the capitalization. As we

explained before, the language that Jeus spoke didn't have the concept of capital letters. Also, 'water'

and 'blood' two 'persons' of the trinity in this verse are not even capitalized. So if we want to talk about

capitalization and deem it as all important, then why is 'water' and 'blood' not capitalized if they are

refering to proper nouns, persons, or entities ?

This is the meaning of the phrase in the Quran 'don't say anything about God except the Truth'.

It is the above sort of speculation that God is advising against. The advice of the Quran is to follow the

clear and unambigous Monotheism that Jesus taught his disciples. In another verse in the Quran, those

who follow Jesus are advised in the following way....

http://www.shareglob...ThruOurEyes.pdf

Ali Musaaa :) · October 24, 2013

^... Brother, may I make your book available to access from my blog?

**placid** · October 24, 2013

Hi Abu,

While your Post 30, seems to be the most important, --- I will answer it first.

Quote: --- On John 5:7 from my book

The other verse which must be treated seperately and the most direct reference in the New Testament to the concept of the trinity is 1 John 5:7

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7 (KJV)

So the concept of 'three' as relating to God only occurs once in the entire Bible.

*** Answer: --- Not quite right. --- The Apostle John who wrote the Gospel begins with John 1:

1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.

--- So the Word (Logos) was the creative power of God.

God the Father, or Author of all things was the Designer, and the Word (Logos) was the creator. --- And it was the Word that made various appearances on earth. --- In the Person of Melchizedek in Genesis 14, --- as the Lord who came to Abraham with two angels in Genesis 18, --- as the Arm of the Lord that brought them out of Egypt with many miracles and led them through the wilderness, --- and as the Commander of the Lord’s Army in Joshua 5, --- and was thereafter called “The Lord of hosts,” which was another name for the Word (Logos).

However, lest it get too complicated we can see that the Three 'are' mentioned together in Isaiah 48:

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

This is the Word speaking and saying, “The Lord God, --- and His (Holy) Spirit have sent Me (the Word).”

--- And the identification of the Word coming into the world is in Hebrews 10:

5 “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
⁷Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me— (in Isaiah 48)
To do Your will, O God.’”

--- And it confirms what ‘body’ God had prepared for Him in John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

--- And to show you that it says the same in the Quran, --- look at Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him (God): his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;”

--- So the Word (Logos) who was from the beginning came to earth and indwelt the body of Jesus for the 331/2 years on earth, and then returned to God.

Quote: Again, these are the words of Paul only as neither Jesus himself, any disciple, or any other author of the New Testament repeat this concept in any form.

*** Answer: --- Again, not quite right.

It was the Apostle John that wrote 1 John, and he wrote it later in life, --- and explained these ‘higher’ things that are not usually understood. --- Nevertheless salvation does not depend on understanding all of the doctrines. --- Salvation depends on Faith in God and acknowledging that God sent His Word (Logos) to indwell Jesus, who was the example for us to follow as Christians.

Again if we look at the former description of the Word in John’s Gospel, John 1:

1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” --- We see that "The Word was ‘one’ with God" --- (and God’s Holy Spirit was ‘one‘ with Him), --- so, as John said in 1 John 5:

7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.”

--- (Some call this the “Godhead” --- be it as it may, --- But you can see that Jesus was not one of them as the faulty trinity doctrine says.

Notice in Surah 3:45, “A Word from Him (God), --- his name will be Christ Jesus.”

Christ, the Messiah, speaks of His Divinity. --- Jesus speaks of His humanity.

(Enough for now)

Placid

PeaceLoving · October 25, 2013

But you can see that Jesus was not one of them as the faulty trinity doctrine says.

Hi Placid

That is interesting indeed.

Pulling Jesus out of the Trinity!

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.”

So who is the Word ?

Is it a person in his (or her or its) own right or is it something else ?

In the Engish language, a word is a lifeless entity

There are seven words in this sentence.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7 (KJV)

If my information is correct, the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Quran refers to Gabriel.

**placid** · October 25, 2013

Hi Abu,

To continue in Post 30, you ask

Quote: So who exactly are the 'three' that are one ? It depends on which

version of the Bible you are looking at. In the King James Version, it says 'the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost'.

Response: --- I will not repeat all of the text concerning a difference between the King James and the New International Version because it is easy to read for yourself.

You say:

Quote: In the King James Version, in 1 John 5:6 the 'trinity' passage starts as

“This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. --- (And it goes on to say):

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

⁸And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

In the NIV it is written this way:

7 For there are three that testify:

⁸the^[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

--- (Notice the footnote [a] after ‘the’ --- The footnote says the following):

in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

⁸And there are three that testify on earth: the

The footnote says that some manuscripts don’t contain the extra wording, it doesn’t say it isn’t in the Scripture. --- If we put them together, they read like this:

NIV 7 For there are three that testify ------- in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

⁸And there are three that testify on earth: ------- the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

NKJ 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

⁸And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

--- So the only difference is that the NIV says ‘testify’ and the NKJ says ‘bear witness.’ --- And, ‘are in agreement,’ --- ‘agree as one.’ --- You see, there is no difference.

You said this:

Quote: Then when we move onto 1 John 5:7, we find something totally different than what is in the King James Version

For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement

1 John 5:7 (NIV)

Sorry, but that is not right. --- What do you do with verse 8? --- Leave it out altogether?

In the NIV, this is what is in verse 7, --- ‘For there are three that testify.’

--- Does that sound like a full verse to you?

A verse is usually a sentence that says something, so what does this say? --- For there are three that testify?

--- What it proves, is that when they numbered the verses in the early days of the NT the Manuscript had verses 7 and 8 written out in full, does it not?

--- And the ‘scholarly’ NIV Version found a Manuscript that didn’t have it in, so they put it in a footnote, --- So it still contains it, does it not?

--- So there is no reason to speculate further, is there?

Placid

Faithfully999 · October 26, 2013

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum, The Peace (of Allaah) Be Upon you, everyone.

You see, it says the same, --- The Father (God) --- The Word (Logos) --- and the Holy Spirit, --- and these Three, that are One. ~ placid

However, you should (must be able to) see by now that ALL (that exists), Is One with the One And Only God.

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

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